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Re: For Christ's Crown and . . .

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  • Jerry
    Dear Simon, What you write concerning Sola Scriptura is true. If our doctrinal standards are not founded on the Word of God, then let them be rejected
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 2, 2002
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      Dear Simon,

      What you write concerning Sola Scriptura is true. If our doctrinal
      standards are not founded on the Word of God, then let them be
      rejected outright. We ask no one to believe anything merely based on
      the words of men. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak
      not according to this word, it is because there is no light in
      them"(Isaiah 8:20).

      Now, concerning covenants, the Word of God does say,

      "Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man
      disannulleth, or addeth thereto" (Galatians 3:15). This, of course,
      speaks of human covenants, between mere men, concerning whatever the
      matter. Now, how much more binding is a covenant which binds the
      Christian to the adherence and defense of the True Religion of God?
      No Reformed Christian ought to have any problem with the content of
      the Covenants. The question is, are they binding on us today? If
      not, how do you explain this in light of the Biblical teaching on
      covenants? If so, what does this mean for us today? Could it mean
      that we would need to do some things that are not at all convenient?
      Yes: "He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.... He that
      doeth these things shall never be moved" (Psalm 15:4,5).

      Concerning your decision to attend or join the Revolution Church, I
      do not condemn you for this. Simon, you are aware as well as I of
      the decline we see all around in Churches that once faithfully upheld
      the principles and practices of the Reformed Faith. The Revolution
      Settlement was near the beginning of the downward slide. Sitting at
      the bottom of the slide, looking up to where we once were, I must
      confess I would find it refreshing if the Revolution Settlement was
      the only problem in the churches today. For many churches, for many
      people, heading to the Revolution Church would, in a sense, be a step
      in the right direction. When surrounded by darkness, the children of
      light sometimes grasp for any glimmer they can find. I believe the
      Revolution Church is in error in light of the Covenants which bind
      them, and in light of the Standards they hold, but I do not count
      them to be my enemies, nor do I dare assert that they are no
      Christians at all. That would be foolish and unchristian. Honestly,
      if, when I became convinced I had to leave my unfaithful church for
      one that adheres to the Westminster Standards, I very well may have
      jumped at joining a church like the Revolution Church. I am no
      longer in a position where I can in good conscience do such a thing.
      But I certainly understand you doing so under the circumstances.
      Others may not like me saying this, but it's my opinion nonetheless.

      I will give you no more advise at this time then this: Follow your
      conscience as guided by Scripture. And when in doubt as to which
      path to take, follow the path of the faithful flock that has gone
      before you.

      Gracious Simon, I've told you this before, but I truly do enjoy
      having you in this club. I am glad that we have so many beliefs in
      common, and I am looking forward to continuing our dialogue and our
      long-distance friendship.

      Sincerely and humbly,

      gmw.
    • S.P.Padbury
      Dear Jerry, I believe that what the Covenanters did in committing themselves the the Covenants was binding upon them, since they deliberately vowed a vow to
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 3, 2002
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        Dear Jerry,

        I believe that what the Covenanters did in committing themselves
        the the Covenants was binding upon them, since they deliberately
        vowed a vow to God himself.

        I am not sure that I fully accept the thesis of the perpetual
        obligation of the Covenants, as though there was a perpetual
        obligation that is binding upon me that arises for the nature of the
        Covenants being covenants. For, in what way were those who
        committed themselves to the Covenants federal representatives of
        me, that they could covenant with God on our behalf?

        On the other hand..............

        I do believe that the National Covenant and the Solumn League
        were the means whereby those who committed themselves to
        these covenants were vowing a vow before God that *they* would
        uphold and defend and propagate the Reformed religion, according
        to their abilities and opportunities.

        Likewise...............

        I do believe in the very same Reformed religion.

        So...............

        Certainly I should want to uphold and defend and propagate the
        Reformed religion too.

        Furthermore................

        Certainly I should want to commit myself to this end, even by
        vowing a vow to God.

        And...............

        There's no good reason that I can see why such a vow should not
        be the Solumn League. Does anybody who believes in the same
        Reformed religion know of any....? No, of course not! Why bother
        asking whether and Reformer can see a good reason not to believe
        in, uphold, defend and propagate the very Reformed religion that he
        himself believes in.

        Now, please consider..............

        Whether or not one believes in the perpetual obligation of the
        Reformed Covenants, as though such perpetual obligation resides
        in their very nature of being covenants tha somebody else vowed
        who allegedly federally represented me, is, as I see it, a surplus
        argument in the case of these Reformed Covenants. It is a surplus
        argument because, whether or not perpetual obligaion is true:
        inasmuch as the content (or, better, the substance) of these
        covenants is a vow of personal commitment (at least) to upholding,
        defending and propagating the Reformed religion, which very same
        Reformed religion I also believe in, it stands inescapable that the
        substance of any vow to uphold, defend and propagate the
        Reformed religion is a substance that is agreeable to me as a
        Reformed Christian. And this stands inescapable, I say again,
        whether or not it can be legitimately claimed that the Covenants
        have a nature that is perpetually binding upon me through
        somebody else having vowed them, allegedly on my behalf.

        One can therefore commit oneself to upholding, defending and
        propagating the Reformed religion according to one's ability and
        opportunity, that is, one can vow the vow of the Covenants and
        Covenanters, whether or not one believes in perpetual obligation.
        Whether the perpetual obligation of these Covenants is true or not,
        the substance of the Reformed Covenants is agreeable to anyone
        who seeks to be a Reformer, which Reformed religion, as I have
        said, I should certainly want to covenant myself to upholding,
        defending and propagating.

        The Reformed Covenants are surely, at least, an outward,
        formalized, communal expression of what everyone who seeks to
        uphold, defend and propagate the Reformed religion should commit
        themselves to. This fact remains inescapably true, whether or not
        the Covenants have a nature that is perpetually binding upon a
        person through someone else vowing them, who allegedly federally
        represented them.

        Yours sincerely, Simon Padbury.
      • Jerry
        Simon, You re asking the right questions. Forgive me for doing this, but I m going to ask a couple questions right back at you. 1. According to Scripture
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 3, 2002
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          Simon,

          You're asking the right questions. Forgive me for doing this, but
          I'm going to ask a couple questions right back at you.

          1. According to Scripture (even according to light of nature), can
          civil magistrates make covenants which bind posterity?

          2. According to Scripture, can ecclesiastical bodies bind themselves
          and their posterity to a covenant?

          gmw.
        • Jerry
          S.P. wrote, Why bother asking whether and Reformer can see a good reason not to believe in, uphold, defend and propagate the very Reformed religion that he
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 3, 2002
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            S.P. wrote, "Why bother asking whether and Reformer can see a good
            reason not to believe in, uphold, defend and propagate the very
            Reformed religion that he himself believes in."

            I wanted to emphasize something Simon touches on a bit. The articles
            of the SL&C, being agreeable to the Word of God, contain nothing in
            essence that the Christian is not already bound to do by the Moral
            Law. Defense of the True Religion, obedience to the lawful
            magistrate, mutual defense of our brothers and sisters in Christ
            against the enemies of Christ and His Church, etc, are things
            Christians are bound to do anyway. As I gather, Simon's dispute is
            NOT that the things contained in the Covenants are not binding on
            Christians as Christians, rather, his questions (if I'm understanding
            him correctly) are regarding whether or not the Covenants bind us
            with an additional bond.

            We, as Christians, are bound to tell the truth by the Moral Law. But
            when standing as a witness in court we may be required to swear to
            tell the truth. Having sworn, we are now not only liars if we do not
            tell the truth, but we are guilty of perjury as well.

            The question is not that Christians are obligated to the duties
            outlined in the Covenants, the question is whether or not the
            Covenants themselves bind as Covenants.

            Important distinction to make.

            gmw.
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