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True Confessions on H2O

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  • Gary Gearon
    I confess, I was a sprinkling Baptist... Gary ... From: Jerry To: Sent:
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
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      I confess, I was a "sprinkling" Baptist...

      Gary
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@...>
      To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 9:16 AM
      Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: An apology


      > This is true! I was a "flaming Baptist" (whatever that means!).
      > Actually, in my personal reformation, the anabaptist position on the
      > sacraments was the one of the very last things to go.
      >
      > gmw.
      >
      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Soles" <dsranch@y...> wrote:
      > > I've heard from one of Jer's friends that Jer was a flaming Baptist
      > once
      > > upon a time....whatever that is. Jer is that true? <smirk>
      > >
      > > glad you are sticking around "ashamed4thegospel" maybe you could
      > give us
      > > little intro on how you came by your id...mine is
      > > clean_cis_heart because my favorite scripture is Ps.51:10
      > > "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within
      > me"
      > >
      > > ~cis~
      > >
      > >
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@c...>
      > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
      > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:59 PM
      > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: An apology
      > >
      > >
      > > > You are welcome to stay here and join in the discussions. I'm
      > glad
      > > > you came back to give us another try.
      > > >
      > > > gmw.
      > > >
      > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "ashamed4thegospel"
      > > > <ashamed4thegospel@y...> wrote:
      > > > > Sir-
      > > > > It would appear that I was a bit hasty in my judgment of you and
      > > > your
      > > > > group. I had never saw it in that light before, but I can see
      > now
      > > > > where I was wrong. Just wanted to come back and set things
      > right.
      > > > > Not looking to start a war of words or to offend other
      > believers in
      > > > > the faith.
      > > > > It seems that someone here has taken offense with me claiming
      > to be
      > > > > Baptist. Are Baptist unwelcome here or something? I did not know
      > > > > that my church back ground would be called into question. I am
      > a
      > > > > Calvinist-Independent, Baptist thank you.
      > > > >
      > > > > Just trying to make things right. May the Lord of peace keep
      > you in
      > > > > His care.
      >
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      >
      >
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      >
      >

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    • Jerry
      The first Anabaptists in Switzerland were also sprinkling baptists. gmw. ... the ... Baptist ... within ... you and ... see ... claiming ... know ... am ...
      Message 2 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
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        The first Anabaptists in Switzerland were also "sprinkling baptists."

        gmw.

        --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Gary Gearon" <GGearon@p...>
        wrote:
        > I confess, I was a "sprinkling" Baptist...
        >
        > Gary
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@c...>
        > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
        > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 9:16 AM
        > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: An apology
        >
        >
        > > This is true! I was a "flaming Baptist" (whatever that means!).
        > > Actually, in my personal reformation, the anabaptist position on
        the
        > > sacraments was the one of the very last things to go.
        > >
        > > gmw.
        > >
        > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Soles" <dsranch@y...>
        wrote:
        > > > I've heard from one of Jer's friends that Jer was a flaming
        Baptist
        > > once
        > > > upon a time....whatever that is. Jer is that true? <smirk>
        > > >
        > > > glad you are sticking around "ashamed4thegospel" maybe you could
        > > give us
        > > > little intro on how you came by your id...mine is
        > > > clean_cis_heart because my favorite scripture is Ps.51:10
        > > > "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit
        within
        > > me"
        > > >
        > > > ~cis~
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > > From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@c...>
        > > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
        > > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:59 PM
        > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: An apology
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > > You are welcome to stay here and join in the discussions. I'm
        > > glad
        > > > > you came back to give us another try.
        > > > >
        > > > > gmw.
        > > > >
        > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "ashamed4thegospel"
        > > > > <ashamed4thegospel@y...> wrote:
        > > > > > Sir-
        > > > > > It would appear that I was a bit hasty in my judgment of
        you and
        > > > > your
        > > > > > group. I had never saw it in that light before, but I can
        see
        > > now
        > > > > > where I was wrong. Just wanted to come back and set things
        > > right.
        > > > > > Not looking to start a war of words or to offend other
        > > believers in
        > > > > > the faith.
        > > > > > It seems that someone here has taken offense with me
        claiming
        > > to be
        > > > > > Baptist. Are Baptist unwelcome here or something? I did not
        know
        > > > > > that my church back ground would be called into question. I
        am
        > > a
        > > > > > Calvinist-Independent, Baptist thank you.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Just trying to make things right. May the Lord of peace keep
        > > you in
        > > > > > His care.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@y...
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
        http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        > >
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------------------------
        > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Pike Online, Inc.]
        > >
        > >
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------
        > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Pike Online, Inc.]
      • S.P.Padbury
        Dear all, Since it s confession time, I have to admit that I was also a sola- credo-immersionist. Many of my friends are still Reformed Baptists . My old
        Message 3 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
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          Dear all,

          Since it's confession time, I have to admit that I was also a sola-
          credo-immersionist.

          Many of my friends are still "Reformed Baptists". My old Arminian
          and Charismatic Baptist friends, however, dropped me a long time
          ago. They think I'm weird, backslidden. Some can't cope with the
          transition in me at all; they say that I can't have been a true Baptist
          at all, or else I wouldn't have given it up.

          Actually, for the record, we who believe in covenant theology do
          also believe in "believers' baptism" -- when the new believer, that is,
          has come from a non-Christian home background, and so was not
          counted as part of the church visible from his/her infancy.

          For Christ's crown and.....hmm, maybe, nearly there.

          Simon.
        • Gary Gearon
          Wow, I didn know that... Gary ... From: Jerry To: Sent: Tuesday, October 01,
          Message 4 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
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            Wow, I didn' know that...

            Gary
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@...>
            To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 10:04 AM
            Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: True Confessions on H2O


            > The first Anabaptists in Switzerland were also "sprinkling baptists."
            >
            > gmw.
            >
            > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Gary Gearon" <GGearon@p...>
            > wrote:
            > > I confess, I was a "sprinkling" Baptist...
            > >
            > > Gary
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@c...>
            > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
            > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 9:16 AM
            > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: An apology
            > >
            > >
            > > > This is true! I was a "flaming Baptist" (whatever that means!).
            > > > Actually, in my personal reformation, the anabaptist position on
            > the
            > > > sacraments was the one of the very last things to go.
            > > >
            > > > gmw.
            > > >
            > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Soles" <dsranch@y...>
            > wrote:
            > > > > I've heard from one of Jer's friends that Jer was a flaming
            > Baptist
            > > > once
            > > > > upon a time....whatever that is. Jer is that true? <smirk>
            > > > >
            > > > > glad you are sticking around "ashamed4thegospel" maybe you could
            > > > give us
            > > > > little intro on how you came by your id...mine is
            > > > > clean_cis_heart because my favorite scripture is Ps.51:10
            > > > > "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit
            > within
            > > > me"
            > > > >
            > > > > ~cis~
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > > From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@c...>
            > > > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
            > > > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:59 PM
            > > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: An apology
            > > > >
            > > > >
            > > > > > You are welcome to stay here and join in the discussions. I'm
            > > > glad
            > > > > > you came back to give us another try.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > gmw.
            > > > > >
            > > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "ashamed4thegospel"
            > > > > > <ashamed4thegospel@y...> wrote:
            > > > > > > Sir-
            > > > > > > It would appear that I was a bit hasty in my judgment of
            > you and
            > > > > > your
            > > > > > > group. I had never saw it in that light before, but I can
            > see
            > > > now
            > > > > > > where I was wrong. Just wanted to come back and set things
            > > > right.
            > > > > > > Not looking to start a war of words or to offend other
            > > > believers in
            > > > > > > the faith.
            > > > > > > It seems that someone here has taken offense with me
            > claiming
            > > > to be
            > > > > > > Baptist. Are Baptist unwelcome here or something? I did not
            > know
            > > > > > > that my church back ground would be called into question. I
            > am
            > > > a
            > > > > > > Calvinist-Independent, Baptist thank you.
            > > > > > >
            > > > > > > Just trying to make things right. May the Lord of peace keep
            > > > you in
            > > > > > > His care.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@y...
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ------------------------------------------------------
            > > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Pike Online, Inc.]
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------
            > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Pike Online, Inc.]
            >
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------
            > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Pike Online, Inc.]
            >
            >

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          • Gary Gearon
            I used to love that guy...still do, but not so much his teaching as much. Gary ... From: Susan To:
            Message 5 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
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              I used to love that guy...still do, but not so much his teaching as much.

              Gary
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Susan " <susanandcrew@...>
              To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 11:38 AM
              Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: True Confessions on H2O


              > I confess I was immersed in Chuck Swindoll's church.
              >
              > It took nevertheless.
              >
              > Susan
              >
              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Gary Gearon" <GGearon@p...>
              > wrote:
              > > I confess, I was a "sprinkling" Baptist...
              > >
              > > Gary
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@c...>
              > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
              > > Sent: Tuesday, October 01, 2002 9:16 AM
              > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: An apology
              > >
              > >
              > > > This is true! I was a "flaming Baptist" (whatever that means!).
              > > > Actually, in my personal reformation, the anabaptist position on
              > the
              > > > sacraments was the one of the very last things to go.
              > > >
              > > > gmw.
              > > >
              > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Soles" <dsranch@y...>
              > wrote:
              > > > > I've heard from one of Jer's friends that Jer was a flaming
              > Baptist
              > > > once
              > > > > upon a time....whatever that is. Jer is that true? <smirk>
              > > > >
              > > > > glad you are sticking around "ashamed4thegospel" maybe you could
              > > > give us
              > > > > little intro on how you came by your id...mine is
              > > > > clean_cis_heart because my favorite scripture is Ps.51:10
              > > > > "Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit
              > within
              > > > me"
              > > > >
              > > > > ~cis~
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > > > From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@c...>
              > > > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@y...>
              > > > > Sent: Monday, September 30, 2002 5:59 PM
              > > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: An apology
              > > > >
              > > > >
              > > > > > You are welcome to stay here and join in the discussions. I'm
              > > > glad
              > > > > > you came back to give us another try.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > gmw.
              > > > > >
              > > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "ashamed4thegospel"
              > > > > > <ashamed4thegospel@y...> wrote:
              > > > > > > Sir-
              > > > > > > It would appear that I was a bit hasty in my judgment of you
              > and
              > > > > > your
              > > > > > > group. I had never saw it in that light before, but I can
              > see
              > > > now
              > > > > > > where I was wrong. Just wanted to come back and set things
              > > > right.
              > > > > > > Not looking to start a war of words or to offend other
              > > > believers in
              > > > > > > the faith.
              > > > > > > It seems that someone here has taken offense with me
              > claiming
              > > > to be
              > > > > > > Baptist. Are Baptist unwelcome here or something? I did not
              > know
              > > > > > > that my church back ground would be called into question. I
              > am
              > > > a
              > > > > > > Calvinist-Independent, Baptist thank you.
              > > > > > >
              > > > > > > Just trying to make things right. May the Lord of peace keep
              > > > you in
              > > > > > > His care.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@y...
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------------------------------------
              > > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Pike Online, Inc.]
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------------------------
              > > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Pike Online, Inc.]
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------
              > [This E-mail scanned for viruses by Pike Online, Inc.]
              >
              >

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            • Jerry
              For Christ s crown and.....hmm, maybe, nearly there. Just say it! SAY IT!!! ... gmw.
              Message 6 of 11 , Oct 1, 2002
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                "For Christ's crown and.....hmm, maybe, nearly there."

                Just say it! SAY IT!!!

                :)

                gmw.
              • S.P.Padbury
                Dear Jerry, ... Okey-dokey. .....Covenant. But just saying it is not good enough, you may be thinking. So, what s stopping me going all the way with you
                Message 7 of 11 , Oct 2, 2002
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                  Dear Jerry,

                  >"For Christ's crown and.....hmm, maybe, nearly there."
                  >Just say it! SAY IT!!!
                  >:)
                  >gmw.

                  Okey-dokey. ".....Covenant." But just saying it is not good enough,
                  you may be thinking.

                  So, what's stopping me going all the way with you Covies?

                  Some time ago I told you that I agreed with the doctrinal contents
                  and sentiments of the National Covenant and the Solumn League,
                  and I still do. This is because these are Reformed, and therefore
                  Biblical. They oppose Rome; they promote the True Religion,
                  according to the Westminster Standards. That's fine by me.

                  Notice, however, that I am seeking to be Biblical first and foremost;
                  placing everything else subordinate to this our only true Standard.
                  What is given by inspiration of God, must always be our Rule. Sola
                  Scriptura.

                  So, I believe the Westminster Standards, and anything else
                  (including the Covenants), insofar as they are Biblical. The
                  authority of such documents, as I see it therefore, is no authority of
                  their own, but is a derived authority insofar as they are Biblical.
                  It is therefore the Bible, and the God of the Bible, that I seek to be
                  committed to, not any man-made Covenant.

                  But, I do not forget that the Covenants, so I believe, are true
                  Reformed and therefore Biblical doctrine. I too, for instance, am
                  committed just as the Covenanters were, to opposing, more: to
                  extirpating the heresies of Popery and all false religion. This is
                  none other than the flipside of the Great Commision, and I am
                  committed to the Great Commission. We as Biblical Christians
                  should teach the observance of all things that our Lord Jesus Christ
                  has commanded -- in His word, thereby making Christian disciples
                  of all the nations.

                  So then, what (you may ask) do I believe concerning the perpetual
                  obligation of the Covenants among God's people who have vowed
                  and committed themselves themselves to these Covenants, seeing
                  them as Reformed and therefore Biblical?

                  Well, insofar as the doctrine contained in the Covenants as
                  Reformed and therefore Biblical, herein lies the basis of their
                  perpetual obligation: The Bible teaches us the Truth and the Truth
                  is always true, and we are perpetually obliged to believe the Truth.
                  Ergo, insofar as the Covenants are Biblical, we are perpetually
                  obliged to be committed to the Biblical truths that they contain.

                  So then, what is stopping me embracing the Covenants, seeing
                  that I believe thay contain Biblical truth, and that I am committed to
                  these truths to such a degree that I wish to see the extirpation of
                  all that is false and unBiblical both in myself and in all who fall
                  within the scope of the Great Commission, namely, in all the
                  nations of the world?

                  In a word, if this is all there was to consider, nothing.

                  However, I'm not quite there with some Covenanters, on their side
                  of this "line in the sand". It seems to me that to accept the whole
                  Covenanter package-deal, I may be asked to abandon going to a
                  church or abandon being a member of a church that is not a
                  Covenanter church. Well, I am not in a position where I can
                  emmigrate to Scotland or Northern Ireland or the USA or Canada.
                  So, you would be asking too much of me there.

                  I must seek to move my family toward the most Reformed church
                  that I can, and in this case, I am already doing so, in that I have
                  spent my time since February joining membership with a Reformed
                  church, a Westminster Sandards believing church, a hundred miles
                  away from where I now live, and about a week ago I recieved an
                  offer for a job in that area, which I accepted. And on Monday,
                  someone put in an offer to buy our house, which we accepted. This
                  weekend I am hope to look around some houses in the vicinity of
                  that Reformed (a conservative presbyterian) church.

                  You may say I am in grave error here, inasmuch as this church can
                  trace its roots back to the Scottish presbyterian churches that
                  accepted the Revolution Settlement, and that therefore my new
                  church is historically based on Erastianism. And you may also say
                  that therefore I am joining membership with a church full of
                  Covenant-breakers, because their spiritual ancestors accepted the
                  Revolution Settlement and thereby broke with the Solumn League
                  and National Covenant, which things, howbeit, most people in the
                  church have never heard of.

                  But I am making the choice to seek out and join the best Reformed
                  church that I can find near where I live in England, where both my
                  family and my wife's family reside. Inasmuch as I believe that God
                  is merciful, and inasmuch as I believe that the Christians in this
                  Reformed church are real Christians, and have therefore not had
                  their branch of God's family tree (the olive tree of Romans 11) sawn
                  off by their spiritual, covenant-breaking ancestors, therefore I do not
                  percieve that I am in grave error in joining myself with these
                  Christians.

                  On a similar note, likewise do I not see myself as being in error if I
                  sit under the preaching of someone who is not part of the
                  Cpvenanted Reformed Presbyterian church, such as I will be doing
                  once we have moved, God willing. Surely you would not argue that
                  this is sin. If you do, you would have to argue that it is likewise
                  wrong to even read books by non-Covenanters. And you can name
                  better than I can which of the Puritans and Scots Presbyterians
                  and Dutch and French and German Reformers, etc., were not
                  Covenaners. And I read and benefit from and agree with these
                  worthies, inasmuch as I believe that they are Biblical.

                  Yours sincerely,

                  Simon Padbury.
                • Jerry
                  Dear Simon, What you write concerning Sola Scriptura is true. If our doctrinal standards are not founded on the Word of God, then let them be rejected
                  Message 8 of 11 , Oct 2, 2002
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                    Dear Simon,

                    What you write concerning Sola Scriptura is true. If our doctrinal
                    standards are not founded on the Word of God, then let them be
                    rejected outright. We ask no one to believe anything merely based on
                    the words of men. "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak
                    not according to this word, it is because there is no light in
                    them"(Isaiah 8:20).

                    Now, concerning covenants, the Word of God does say,

                    "Though it be but a man's covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man
                    disannulleth, or addeth thereto" (Galatians 3:15). This, of course,
                    speaks of human covenants, between mere men, concerning whatever the
                    matter. Now, how much more binding is a covenant which binds the
                    Christian to the adherence and defense of the True Religion of God?
                    No Reformed Christian ought to have any problem with the content of
                    the Covenants. The question is, are they binding on us today? If
                    not, how do you explain this in light of the Biblical teaching on
                    covenants? If so, what does this mean for us today? Could it mean
                    that we would need to do some things that are not at all convenient?
                    Yes: "He that sweareth to his own hurt, and changeth not.... He that
                    doeth these things shall never be moved" (Psalm 15:4,5).

                    Concerning your decision to attend or join the Revolution Church, I
                    do not condemn you for this. Simon, you are aware as well as I of
                    the decline we see all around in Churches that once faithfully upheld
                    the principles and practices of the Reformed Faith. The Revolution
                    Settlement was near the beginning of the downward slide. Sitting at
                    the bottom of the slide, looking up to where we once were, I must
                    confess I would find it refreshing if the Revolution Settlement was
                    the only problem in the churches today. For many churches, for many
                    people, heading to the Revolution Church would, in a sense, be a step
                    in the right direction. When surrounded by darkness, the children of
                    light sometimes grasp for any glimmer they can find. I believe the
                    Revolution Church is in error in light of the Covenants which bind
                    them, and in light of the Standards they hold, but I do not count
                    them to be my enemies, nor do I dare assert that they are no
                    Christians at all. That would be foolish and unchristian. Honestly,
                    if, when I became convinced I had to leave my unfaithful church for
                    one that adheres to the Westminster Standards, I very well may have
                    jumped at joining a church like the Revolution Church. I am no
                    longer in a position where I can in good conscience do such a thing.
                    But I certainly understand you doing so under the circumstances.
                    Others may not like me saying this, but it's my opinion nonetheless.

                    I will give you no more advise at this time then this: Follow your
                    conscience as guided by Scripture. And when in doubt as to which
                    path to take, follow the path of the faithful flock that has gone
                    before you.

                    Gracious Simon, I've told you this before, but I truly do enjoy
                    having you in this club. I am glad that we have so many beliefs in
                    common, and I am looking forward to continuing our dialogue and our
                    long-distance friendship.

                    Sincerely and humbly,

                    gmw.
                  • S.P.Padbury
                    Dear Jerry, I believe that what the Covenanters did in committing themselves the the Covenants was binding upon them, since they deliberately vowed a vow to
                    Message 9 of 11 , Oct 3, 2002
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                      Dear Jerry,

                      I believe that what the Covenanters did in committing themselves
                      the the Covenants was binding upon them, since they deliberately
                      vowed a vow to God himself.

                      I am not sure that I fully accept the thesis of the perpetual
                      obligation of the Covenants, as though there was a perpetual
                      obligation that is binding upon me that arises for the nature of the
                      Covenants being covenants. For, in what way were those who
                      committed themselves to the Covenants federal representatives of
                      me, that they could covenant with God on our behalf?

                      On the other hand..............

                      I do believe that the National Covenant and the Solumn League
                      were the means whereby those who committed themselves to
                      these covenants were vowing a vow before God that *they* would
                      uphold and defend and propagate the Reformed religion, according
                      to their abilities and opportunities.

                      Likewise...............

                      I do believe in the very same Reformed religion.

                      So...............

                      Certainly I should want to uphold and defend and propagate the
                      Reformed religion too.

                      Furthermore................

                      Certainly I should want to commit myself to this end, even by
                      vowing a vow to God.

                      And...............

                      There's no good reason that I can see why such a vow should not
                      be the Solumn League. Does anybody who believes in the same
                      Reformed religion know of any....? No, of course not! Why bother
                      asking whether and Reformer can see a good reason not to believe
                      in, uphold, defend and propagate the very Reformed religion that he
                      himself believes in.

                      Now, please consider..............

                      Whether or not one believes in the perpetual obligation of the
                      Reformed Covenants, as though such perpetual obligation resides
                      in their very nature of being covenants tha somebody else vowed
                      who allegedly federally represented me, is, as I see it, a surplus
                      argument in the case of these Reformed Covenants. It is a surplus
                      argument because, whether or not perpetual obligaion is true:
                      inasmuch as the content (or, better, the substance) of these
                      covenants is a vow of personal commitment (at least) to upholding,
                      defending and propagating the Reformed religion, which very same
                      Reformed religion I also believe in, it stands inescapable that the
                      substance of any vow to uphold, defend and propagate the
                      Reformed religion is a substance that is agreeable to me as a
                      Reformed Christian. And this stands inescapable, I say again,
                      whether or not it can be legitimately claimed that the Covenants
                      have a nature that is perpetually binding upon me through
                      somebody else having vowed them, allegedly on my behalf.

                      One can therefore commit oneself to upholding, defending and
                      propagating the Reformed religion according to one's ability and
                      opportunity, that is, one can vow the vow of the Covenants and
                      Covenanters, whether or not one believes in perpetual obligation.
                      Whether the perpetual obligation of these Covenants is true or not,
                      the substance of the Reformed Covenants is agreeable to anyone
                      who seeks to be a Reformer, which Reformed religion, as I have
                      said, I should certainly want to covenant myself to upholding,
                      defending and propagating.

                      The Reformed Covenants are surely, at least, an outward,
                      formalized, communal expression of what everyone who seeks to
                      uphold, defend and propagate the Reformed religion should commit
                      themselves to. This fact remains inescapably true, whether or not
                      the Covenants have a nature that is perpetually binding upon a
                      person through someone else vowing them, who allegedly federally
                      represented them.

                      Yours sincerely, Simon Padbury.
                    • Jerry
                      Simon, You re asking the right questions. Forgive me for doing this, but I m going to ask a couple questions right back at you. 1. According to Scripture
                      Message 10 of 11 , Oct 3, 2002
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                        Simon,

                        You're asking the right questions. Forgive me for doing this, but
                        I'm going to ask a couple questions right back at you.

                        1. According to Scripture (even according to light of nature), can
                        civil magistrates make covenants which bind posterity?

                        2. According to Scripture, can ecclesiastical bodies bind themselves
                        and their posterity to a covenant?

                        gmw.
                      • Jerry
                        S.P. wrote, Why bother asking whether and Reformer can see a good reason not to believe in, uphold, defend and propagate the very Reformed religion that he
                        Message 11 of 11 , Oct 3, 2002
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                          S.P. wrote, "Why bother asking whether and Reformer can see a good
                          reason not to believe in, uphold, defend and propagate the very
                          Reformed religion that he himself believes in."

                          I wanted to emphasize something Simon touches on a bit. The articles
                          of the SL&C, being agreeable to the Word of God, contain nothing in
                          essence that the Christian is not already bound to do by the Moral
                          Law. Defense of the True Religion, obedience to the lawful
                          magistrate, mutual defense of our brothers and sisters in Christ
                          against the enemies of Christ and His Church, etc, are things
                          Christians are bound to do anyway. As I gather, Simon's dispute is
                          NOT that the things contained in the Covenants are not binding on
                          Christians as Christians, rather, his questions (if I'm understanding
                          him correctly) are regarding whether or not the Covenants bind us
                          with an additional bond.

                          We, as Christians, are bound to tell the truth by the Moral Law. But
                          when standing as a witness in court we may be required to swear to
                          tell the truth. Having sworn, we are now not only liars if we do not
                          tell the truth, but we are guilty of perjury as well.

                          The question is not that Christians are obligated to the duties
                          outlined in the Covenants, the question is whether or not the
                          Covenants themselves bind as Covenants.

                          Important distinction to make.

                          gmw.
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