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Re: [Covenanted Reformation Club] A Case of Conscience

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  • Soles
    Hello Matthew, Interesting question....Doralynne was sitting at the keys when that came in, said something like, Oh Mom that would mean you couldn t belong to
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 29, 2002
      Hello Matthew,

      Interesting question....Doralynne was sitting at the keys when that came in,
      said something like, Oh Mom that would mean you couldn't belong to any of
      your clubs.....I belong to the Canadian Kennel club, the Canadian Borzoi
      Club, the American Quarter Horse Association the Canadian Percheron Club,
      The Canadian Boer Goat Association or the Cat Fanciers Club of America.. I
      have let my memberships lapse to the Bird Breeders of British Columbia and
      the Poodle Club of BC.....Jody quickly piped up that would be great for
      then you would stop raising papered animals. lol

      So, what are your thoughts should I being a Christian stop being a member to
      those clubs and associations for they certainly are not Christian?

      BTW
      great to see you here,

      ~Cathie~


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Matthew Winzer" <mwinzer@...>
      To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 3:12 PM
      Subject: [Covenanted Reformation Club] A Case of Conscience


      > May a Christian be a member of an unChristian organisation? E.g., Yahoo?
      >
      > Yours sincerely,
      > Matthew Winzer
    • Matthew Winzer
      Dear Cathie, I think some thought needs to be given to the implications which arise from 2 Cor. 6 with respect to unions, alliances, and associations.
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 29, 2002
        Dear Cathie,

        I think some thought needs to be given to the implications which arise from
        2 Cor. 6 with respect to "unions," "alliances," and "associations." The
        tendency is to refer this to marriage, but Paul does not limit his words to
        this bond.

        A "member" is a constituent portion of a complex structure. So when we are
        denominated as members of an organisation, we are a part of that structure,
        and fellowshipping with it in some way, shape, or form.

        The questions needing to be answered are these: Does Paul speak
        conditionally in 2 Cor. 6? Are there other portions of Scripture to be
        considered in qualifying Paul's prohibition?

        I thought this would be a good place to raise this question, given the
        covenanted reformation's insistence on abstaining from unholy alliances.

        Yours sincerely,
        Matthew Winzer
      • raging_calvinist
        This is an interesting question. Before I throw my two cents in, have you read Gillespie on unlawful associations?
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 30, 2002
          This is an interesting question. Before I throw my two cents in,
          have you read Gillespie on unlawful associations?

          http://www.covenanter.org/GGillespie/miscellaneousquestions/ggilles14.
          html

          gmw.

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Matthew Winzer"
          <mwinzer@b...> wrote:
          > Dear Cathie,
          >
          > I think some thought needs to be given to the implications which
          arise from
          > 2 Cor. 6 with respect to "unions," "alliances,"
          and "associations." The
          > tendency is to refer this to marriage, but Paul does not limit his
          words to
          > this bond.
          >
          > A "member" is a constituent portion of a complex structure. So
          when we are
          > denominated as members of an organisation, we are a part of that
          structure,
          > and fellowshipping with it in some way, shape, or form.
          >
          > The questions needing to be answered are these: Does Paul speak
          > conditionally in 2 Cor. 6? Are there other portions of Scripture
          to be
          > considered in qualifying Paul's prohibition?
          >
          > I thought this would be a good place to raise this question, given
          the
          > covenanted reformation's insistence on abstaining from unholy
          alliances.
          >
          > Yours sincerely,
          > Matthew Winzer
        • jasperh98
          Not sure that your link works correctly (it didn t for me), but if you go to http://www.covenanter.org/GGillespie/georgegillespie.htm and then click on A
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 30, 2002
            Not sure that your link works correctly (it didn't for me), but if
            you go to http://www.covenanter.org/GGillespie/georgegillespie.htm
            and then click on "A Treatise of Miscellany Questions", you will get
            there.
            -jasper
            --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "raging_calvinist"
            <ragingcalvinist@c...> wrote:
            > This is an interesting question. Before I throw my two cents in,
            > have you read Gillespie on unlawful associations?
            >
            >
            http://www.covenanter.org/GGillespie/miscellaneousquestions/ggilles14.
            > html
            >
            > gmw.
            >
            > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Matthew Winzer"
            > <mwinzer@b...> wrote:
            > > Dear Cathie,
            > >
            > > I think some thought needs to be given to the implications which
            > arise from
            > > 2 Cor. 6 with respect to "unions," "alliances,"
            > and "associations." The
            > > tendency is to refer this to marriage, but Paul does not limit
            his
            > words to
            > > this bond.
            > >
            > > A "member" is a constituent portion of a complex structure. So
            > when we are
            > > denominated as members of an organisation, we are a part of that
            > structure,
            > > and fellowshipping with it in some way, shape, or form.
            > >
            > > The questions needing to be answered are these: Does Paul speak
            > > conditionally in 2 Cor. 6? Are there other portions of Scripture
            > to be
            > > considered in qualifying Paul's prohibition?
            > >
            > > I thought this would be a good place to raise this question,
            given
            > the
            > > covenanted reformation's insistence on abstaining from unholy
            > alliances.
            > >
            > > Yours sincerely,
            > > Matthew Winzer
          • Soles
            Dear Matthew, Not saying some thoughts needs to be given, but come let us be practical, not knowing if you know the process of raising anything that has a
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 30, 2002
              Dear Matthew,

              Not saying some thoughts needs to be given, but come let us be practical,
              not knowing if you know the process of raising anything that has a pedigree,
              [yes even my roller male canary has one]<smirk> Clubs and associations
              maintain records....if one is not a member the fee is twice as high for the
              recording to be put on file and a "official" document of registration is
              returned to you, not to mention all the recording of transfers of
              ownership.....I would think that if what you are implying, [or are you just
              getting folks talking?] "that it is sinful" to have a connection....that
              even if one was not a member but opted to pay the higher price, one would
              still be guilty of association by hiring the service done for you..

              Years ago, I had to deal with this in whether it is lawful to buy groceries
              from a store, the produce may have been labored over and collected or bagged
              or shipped on the Lord's day....where do you draw the line?
              I being a rancher/farmer, might be able to accomplish eating only food that
              had been labored over on other days of the week....Ah, but you should ask me
              do I not feed and water my critters, or if the green house is just too hot
              and dry though the watering was done on the last day of the week, those
              plants have to receive a watering on the Lord's day or by the next they will
              be shriveled up and dead.

              Mind provoking thoughts, hey? What would your conscience say on that matter?

              ~Cathie~

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Matthew Winzer" <mwinzer@...>
              To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, April 29, 2002 11:20 PM
              Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation Club] A Case of Conscience


              > Dear Cathie,
              >
              > I think some thought needs to be given to the implications which arise
              from
              > 2 Cor. 6 with respect to "unions," "alliances," and "associations." The
              > tendency is to refer this to marriage, but Paul does not limit his words
              to
              > this bond.
              >
              > A "member" is a constituent portion of a complex structure. So when we
              are
              > denominated as members of an organisation, we are a part of that
              structure,
              > and fellowshipping with it in some way, shape, or form.
              >
              > The questions needing to be answered are these: Does Paul speak
              > conditionally in 2 Cor. 6? Are there other portions of Scripture to be
              > considered in qualifying Paul's prohibition?
              >
              > I thought this would be a good place to raise this question, given the
              > covenanted reformation's insistence on abstaining from unholy alliances.
              >
              > Yours sincerely,
              > Matthew Winzer
            • Matthew Winzer
              Yes, and Binning s Useful Case of Conscience. Yours sincerely, Matthew Winzer ... From: raging_calvinist To:
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 30, 2002
                Yes, and Binning's Useful Case of Conscience.

                Yours sincerely,
                Matthew Winzer


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "raging_calvinist" <ragingcalvinist@...>
                To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 9:56 PM
                Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation Club] A Case of Conscience


                > This is an interesting question. Before I throw my two cents in,
                > have you read Gillespie on unlawful associations?
                >
                > http://www.covenanter.org/GGillespie/miscellaneousquestions/ggilles14.
                > html
                >
                > gmw.
                >
                > --- In covenantedreformationclub@y..., "Matthew Winzer"
                > <mwinzer@b...> wrote:
                > > Dear Cathie,
                > >
                > > I think some thought needs to be given to the implications which
                > arise from
                > > 2 Cor. 6 with respect to "unions," "alliances,"
                > and "associations." The
                > > tendency is to refer this to marriage, but Paul does not limit his
                > words to
                > > this bond.
                > >
                > > A "member" is a constituent portion of a complex structure. So
                > when we are
                > > denominated as members of an organisation, we are a part of that
                > structure,
                > > and fellowshipping with it in some way, shape, or form.
                > >
                > > The questions needing to be answered are these: Does Paul speak
                > > conditionally in 2 Cor. 6? Are there other portions of Scripture
                > to be
                > > considered in qualifying Paul's prohibition?
                > >
                > > I thought this would be a good place to raise this question, given
                > the
                > > covenanted reformation's insistence on abstaining from unholy
                > alliances.
                > >
                > > Yours sincerely,
                > > Matthew Winzer
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
              • Matthew Winzer
                Dear Cathie, I am still working on the implications, and probably will be till my days end. I would regard receiving a service as different from taking up
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 30, 2002
                  Dear Cathie,

                  I am still working on the implications, and probably will be till my days'
                  end.

                  I would regard receiving a service as different from taking up membership in
                  the organisation which supplies the service. So in 1 Cor., purchasing
                  idolatrous meats in the shambles differs from joining with idolaters in the
                  offering of those meats.

                  If Yahoo said, alright, you may sign up to various email groups without
                  having to become a member of Yahoo, I do not think it would be a problem
                  (although their ads and links would still be questionable). But they
                  require us to subscribe in order to give their advertisers a client base
                  they will be aiming their products at.

                  I am coming to the opinion that it is wrong to be a member of Yahoo; but
                  just wanted to get some feedback before I made the final decision to
                  unsubscribe.

                  Yours sincerely,
                  Matthew Winzer
                • Soles
                  Dear Matthew, Thank you for clarifying your thoughts, now I wonder how does one sit up a e-group or club without a host like yahoo, is it possible to have a
                  Message 8 of 9 , May 1, 2002
                    Dear Matthew,

                    Thank you for clarifying your thoughts, now I wonder how does one sit up a
                    e-group or club without a host like yahoo, is it possible to have a group on
                    one's own so that you do not have to be a member of it? I think all such
                    hosts require some kind of signing membership in order to be able to
                    discipline those who would use the group/club in a unbecoming manner....like
                    one submitting "porn" or something else untasteful or sinful, assaulting the
                    other folks on that list. Does anyone belong to a group that does not
                    require the person to become a member of it?

                    ~Cathie~

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Matthew Winzer" <mwinzer@...>
                    To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 30, 2002 3:18 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation Club] A Case of Conscience


                    > Dear Cathie,
                    >
                    > I am still working on the implications, and probably will be till my days'
                    > end.
                    >
                    > I would regard receiving a service as different from taking up membership
                    in
                    > the organisation which supplies the service. So in 1 Cor., purchasing
                    > idolatrous meats in the shambles differs from joining with idolaters in
                    the
                    > offering of those meats.
                    >
                    > If Yahoo said, alright, you may sign up to various email groups without
                    > having to become a member of Yahoo, I do not think it would be a problem
                    > (although their ads and links would still be questionable). But they
                    > require us to subscribe in order to give their advertisers a client base
                    > they will be aiming their products at.
                    >
                    > I am coming to the opinion that it is wrong to be a member of Yahoo; but
                    > just wanted to get some feedback before I made the final decision to
                    > unsubscribe.
                    >
                    > Yours sincerely,
                    > Matthew Winzer
                  • raging_calvinist
                    Again, Matthew, I think you are answering a very interesting question. I don t know if I have the answer right now, but I do have some questions. What kind of
                    Message 9 of 9 , May 2, 2002
                      Again, Matthew, I think you are answering a very interesting
                      question. I don't know if I have the answer right now, but I do have
                      some questions.

                      What kind of association do you consider signing up for Yahoo to be?
                      A civil association, a religious association, or a mixed association?
                      (Gillespie's distinctions)

                      Does providing demographic information in order to use a service
                      constitute joining an unlawful association?

                      Does being a member of Yahoo provide an opportunity for a crisis
                      pulling the believer between loyalties to Christ and loyalties to
                      Yahoo?

                      Just some questions I think relate to this discussion.

                      gmw.
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