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[Covenanted Reformation] Re: the Covenanted Reformation

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  • Pearl
    ... and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing. ... Reformed Churches in this nation are
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Larry Bump <lbump@...>
      wrote:
      >
      >
      > >> 4. To endeavor to bring the 3 Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction
      and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church
      Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing.
      > >> (as a former plantation of Great Britain all Westminster accepting
      Reformed Churches in this nation are bound to our fathers covenants as
      their spiritual posterity and their visible representation as I
      understand it)
      > >>
      >
      >
      >
      > Great Britain was not a signatory to the Solemn League and Covenant.
      > England, Ireland and Scotland were.
      > There is a difference, and if you don't know what that was, you have
      no
      > business posting to this question.
      >
      >
      >
      Mr. Bump, in response to your inquiry I would thank you for correcting
      my misspeaking, if indeed I did. Which is possible. Please consider
      that I do fallibly understand what the Solemn League and Covenant is and
      that there were representatives of three nations that signed it. My
      understanding is that James the 6th of Scotland, became James the 1st of
      the 3 Kingdoms. He was a Stewart monarch bound by the National Covenant
      of Scotland and his son Charles the1st, bound by his father's covenant
      (National Covenant of Scotland) was then presiding over the 3 Kingdoms
      of Scotland, England and Ireland when they swore the Solemn League and
      Covenant renewing the covenant obligations of Scotland, and stating as
      the then chief magistrate of the United Kingdoms the additional
      obligation of the Solemn League and Covenant that now bound England and
      Ireland as well as Scotland in a continued purpose of establishing the
      true reformed religion among the nations on earth by a uniformity in
      doctrine, worship, government and discipline that the Lord's people
      would be one and his name one. In my fallible mind, I thought when I
      wrote 'Great Britain' I was referring to 3 distinct nations under one
      sovereign more accurately stated the United Kingdom(s).

      In the best interest of the three kingdoms the Westminster Assembly
      labored for that uniformity to be well defined. The Directory for
      Public Worship was penned at that time which encourages the national
      churches that one of the petitions to be included in Public pastoral
      prayer should be petitions for our plantations, because the nations were
      now under the obligation of uniformity in the true reformed religion
      which was but briefly professed by the house of Stewart (magistracy) and
      by many Independents, and Sectarians (representative Ministry at
      Westminster) many of whom contrary to their covenants joined the
      malignant party against their brethren, within a few short years. Three
      kingdoms as kingdoms who were under one monarch and one Church under one
      head the Lord Jesus Christ retaining their national identities as
      kingdoms raised their hand to Almighty God in an act of solemn worship
      and vowed on behalf of themselves and their posterity to support one
      another (ministry and magistracy, the king and his people, the ministry
      and those under their charge each in their place, calling and station)
      in a true work of Reformation thus binding themselves to God and one
      another. But the times and season are in the hands of our Sovereign
      Omnipotent God. If the magistrate had kept his part of the Covenant
      within his sphere, and the people theirs, the ministry their part and
      those under their charge, theirs, it would not have been said of the few
      that remained faithful in their places calling and stations those who
      both vowed and paid "When they were about to have finished their
      testimony the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit shall make
      war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." (Rev. 11:7)
      as was evidenced during the killing times in Scotland and further
      elucidated by Alexander Peden to an Irish brother before his death in
      historical testimony recorded for posterity. The Directory for Public
      Worship, an integral part of our Confession of Faith, states in the
      section entitled 'Of Publick Prayer before the Sermon'..."To pray for
      the propagation of the gospel and the kingdom of Christ to all nations;
      for the conversion of the Jews, the fullness of the Gentiles, the fall
      of Antichrist, the hastening of the second coming of our Lord; for
      deliverance for the distressed churches abroad from the tyranny of the
      anti christian faction, and from the cruel oppressions and blasphemies
      of the Turk; for the blessing of God upon the Reformed Churches and
      kingdoms of Scotland, England and Ireland now more strictly and
      religiously united in the Solemn National League and Covenant; and for
      'our' plantations in the remote parts of the world: more particularly
      for that church and kingdom whereof we are members, that therein God
      would establish peace and truth, the purity of his ordinances, the power
      of godliness; prevent and remove heresy, schism, profaneness,
      superstition,security, and unfruitfulness under the means of grace; heal
      all our rents and divisions, and preserve us from breach of our Solemn
      Covenant."

      Do you now at least follow my fallible logic? I confess I am most
      probably ignorant of what you are referring to so I cannot comment
      further regarding your accusation. Hopefully now even though you may
      not agree with my fallible logic, you understand my position.
    • Larry Bump
      Pearl wrote: (snip) The point I was making, and unclear, is that the political landscape of the time is very confusing. Yes, England (including Wales) is one
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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        Pearl wrote:

        (snip)

        The point I was making, and unclear, is that the political landscape of
        the time is very confusing.

        Yes, England (including Wales) is one of the three kingdoms, along with
        Ireland and Scotland. These three together form the entity call the
        United Kingdoms, or currently designated UKoGBaNI (United Kingdoms of
        Great Britain and Northern Ireland). Scotland, Wales, and England
        together compose Britain, or Great Britain.
        All three of these were under the authority of the King and the
        Parliament. All three of these were (and really still are) parties to
        the Covenants and agreements you mention. These are the Three Kingdoms,
        and the Covenants are limited to *only *these entities.

        But the King of England and Ireland, who at the time was also King of
        Scotland, though this wasn't necessarily so, was also King to many other
        lands that were not part of England, Britain, Great Britain, nor the
        United Kingdoms (Three Kingdoms). These lands were never included in
        the Solemn League and Covenant, were not properly under the authority of
        Parliament (at the time), and cannot be bound by the Covenants unless
        they formally owned them at a later date.
        The King of England was also master of most of India, the American
        colonies, Jamaica, British Honduras, British Colombia, maybe Hong Kong,
        and others. He was an Emperor, and styled himself as such; we just
        don't hear of that anymore, especially in America.
        The privileges and rights of the King were slowly encroached upon by
        Parliament after the Glorious Revolution. The Hanoverian kings were not
        jealous of their rights, and frankly were likely ignorant of the
        difference as well. The imperial holding of the King were taken over by
        a Parliament that decided it was the rightful sovereign and that the
        properties of the King belonged to it. One of the Emperor's kingdoms
        asserted authority over the others, and it was allowed to happen. The
        fact that the Parliament controlled the army may have had something to
        do with it.

        Now, when the Parliament tried to do that with the American colonies the
        lower 13 resisted in what is improperly called a rebellion or
        revolution. Their gripe is that the King should have defended them from
        the Parliament; instead he abetted this foreign government's tyranny.
        That was and is the legal grounds for our independence. The only
        logical outcome of holding the SL&C as applying to the colonies would
        require us to re-join England as subordinate to the King and Parliament
        again.

        The Canadian colonies, as well as semi-independent Newfoundland did own
        the covenants and subordinated themselves to Parliament. The Carribean,
        South American, and African colonies did not own the Covenants, but did
        subordinate themselves. Parliament didn't require the colonies or any
        others to own the covenants. We never did, though some denominations
        have and some only adopted the WCF and subordinate documents.

        The SL&C is a good example, and is the sort of national covenanting that
        ought to occur. But it is applicable only to the Three Kingdoms. The
        political aspects of it make it ridiculous to attempt to apply it
        outside of those three nations.
      • Larry Bump
        ... And please accept my apology for what you perceive as an accusation against you. I was moved by others, and took it out on you in a cruel and unfair
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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          Pearl wrote:
          > I confess I am most
          > probably ignorant of what you are referring to so I cannot comment
          > further regarding your accusation.

          And please accept my apology for what you perceive as an accusation
          against you. I was moved by others, and took it out on you in a cruel
          and unfair fashion.
          It was wrong of me, and I hope you can forgive me and forget it happened.
        • Connie Blaine
          you are a fool. the covenanters are a cult. the gospel has nothing to do with politics or worldly nations. the biblical covenant is a will and testament and
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 13, 2009
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            you are a fool. the covenanters are a cult. the gospel has nothing to do with politics or worldly nations. the biblical covenant is a will and testament and Christ is the testator of that will to save those who are written in the book of life. so that the elect would inherit not only eternal life but a new earth and heaven. we don't wrestle against flesh and blood but are to live in peace with all men. ours is not to put down or crusade against false religions. to follow the reformed tradition is no different then catholics following theirs. there is no possibility of correction. sad to say that the reformation ended about 400 years ago. the reformed creeds have many false doctrins in them. for example, we are not justified by our faith but by the faith of Christ. we are justified by his faith and work and not by anything in or through us. (gal.2:16) etc. there is no church that has not perverted the gospel. study your Bible and stop listening to these people. the regulative principle does not exist the way they say. Deut. 12:32 is speaking of adding to the word of God as well as prov.30:6 and rev.22:18 there is nothing in the bible that says you cant celebrate holidays like Christmas. remember, we are to do all things in a God glorifying way. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERY ONE, james

            --- On Wed, 12/9/09, christabella.warren <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            From: christabella.warren <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: the Covenanted Reformation
            To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 7:19 PM

             



            --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, pearl4dc <no_reply@.. .> wrote:
            >
            > I have for many years kept my distance from this Club for fear of sinning by giving offense or being offended. I speak too much and sin is not absent. I understand too little, for that reason. I am zealous but not always in the right spirit. It takes me years to understand what I said that was so wrong. I joined this month out of a desire for fellowship and edification as a lone scattered sheep. This is my attempt to edify my brethren. This Lord's Day I was reviewing journal and sermon notes and rereading my notes from Mr. John Welwood's sermon on 1 Peter 4:18 from 'Sermons in Times of Persecution' . His was a fearful admonition for some and encouragement for others. Not knowing my own heart I began self examination. What followed these notes were musings on what happened to the visible church as I knew it and then more notes on something that I read, but I cannot remember from where. It was instructive to me and I am sharing from my notes (not an exact copy of what was read) in the hope it will be helpful to someone.
            >
            > In our Covenants we swear 6 things:
            >
            > 1. We will endeavor to be humbled for our sins and for the sins of the kingdom. (the plantations in the US, Canada and elsewhere were prayerfully petitioned for in the Directory for Public Worship, so I can safely assume we were in their prayers and contendings)
            >
            > 2. We will go before one another in an example of real reformation requiring more amendment of life than fighting and disputes.
            >
            > 3. We will endeavor to amend our lives and reform not only ourselves but all those that are under our charge.
            > (this was a concern of Thomas Manton at the beginning of my Westminster Confession of Faith and I fear it has not yet been realized among us)
            >
            > 4. To endeavor to bring the 3 Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing.
            > (as a former plantation of Great Britain all Westminster accepting Reformed Churches in this nation are bound to our fathers covenants as their spiritual posterity and their visible representation as I understand it)
            >
            > 5. To endeavor the extirpation of Popery, Prelacy, superstition, heresy and schism in our place, calling and station - one cannot contend for a toleration of all religions and keep this oath.
            >
            > 6. Against a detestable indifference and neutrality in this cause that so much concerns the glory of God. How many care not for what becomes of the (public) cause of God so that they may have peace and quiet, indifferent as to which contending parties prevail as long as they may have their trading again.
            >
            > I believe all true covenanters would do well to consider all these things for they have caused us to be scattered one from another on this dark day and to our own and our families hurt. I encourage each covenanter to prayerfully look each to his own heart as I did to mine. On Monday the Lord was by his gracious spirit already helping me with #1 I have a long way to go.
            >
            > May our heavenly Father pity us as children of dust.
            >

            Thank you for your heartfelt post -- would that more of the Lord's children were as zealous for His cause!


          • Kevin Guillory
            Gosh!  I m a cultist ... and didn t even know it!  Guess all I can do is rejoice in it! :-D Kevin Connie Blaine wrote:   you are a fool. the covenanters are
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 13, 2009
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              Gosh!  I'm a cultist ... and didn't even know it!  Guess all I can do is rejoice in it! :-D

              Kevin


              Connie Blaine wrote:
               

              you are a fool. the covenanters are a cult. the gospel has nothing to do with politics or worldly nations. the biblical covenant is a will and testament and Christ is the testator of that will to save those who are written in the book of life. so that the elect would inherit not only eternal life but a new earth and heaven. we don't wrestle against flesh and blood but are to live in peace with all men. ours is not to put down or crusade against false religions. to follow the reformed tradition is no different then catholics following theirs. there is no possibility of correction. sad to say that the reformation ended about 400 years ago. the reformed creeds have many false doctrins in them. for example, we are not justified by our faith but by the faith of Christ. we are justified by his faith and work and not by anything in or through us. (gal.2:16) etc. there is no church that has not perverted the gospel. study your Bible and stop listening to these people. the regulative principle does not exist the way they say. Deut. 12:32 is speaking of adding to the word of God as well as prov.30:6 and rev.22:18 there is nothing in the bible that says you cant celebrate holidays like Christmas. remember, we are to do all things in a God glorifying way. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERY ONE, james

              --- On Wed, 12/9/09, christabella.warren <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:

              From: christabella. warren <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
              Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: the Covenanted Reformation
              To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
              Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 7:19 PM

               



              --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, pearl4dc <no_reply@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > I have for many years kept my distance from this Club for fear of sinning by giving offense or being offended. I speak too much and sin is not absent. I understand too little, for that reason. I am zealous but not always in the right spirit. It takes me years to understand what I said that was so wrong. I joined this month out of a desire for fellowship and edification as a lone scattered sheep. This is my attempt to edify my brethren. This Lord's Day I was reviewing journal and sermon notes and rereading my notes from Mr. John Welwood's sermon on 1 Peter 4:18 from 'Sermons in Times of Persecution' . His was a fearful admonition for some and encouragement for others. Not knowing my own heart I began self examination. What followed these notes were musings on what happened to the visible church as I knew it and then more notes on something that I read, but I cannot remember from where. It was instructive to me and I am sharing from my notes (not an exact copy of what was read) in the hope it will be helpful to someone.
              >
              > In our Covenants we swear 6 things:
              >
              > 1. We will endeavor to be humbled for our sins and for the sins of the kingdom. (the plantations in the US, Canada and elsewhere were prayerfully petitioned for in the Directory for Public Worship, so I can safely assume we were in their prayers and contendings)
              >
              > 2. We will go before one another in an example of real reformation requiring more amendment of life than fighting and disputes.
              >
              > 3. We will endeavor to amend our lives and reform not only ourselves but all those that are under our charge.
              > (this was a concern of Thomas Manton at the beginning of my Westminster Confession of Faith and I fear it has not yet been realized among us)
              >
              > 4. To endeavor to bring the 3 Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing.
              > (as a former plantation of Great Britain all Westminster accepting Reformed Churches in this nation are bound to our fathers covenants as their spiritual posterity and their visible representation as I understand it)
              >
              > 5. To endeavor the extirpation of Popery, Prelacy, superstition, heresy and schism in our place, calling and station - one cannot contend for a toleration of all religions and keep this oath.
              >
              > 6. Against a detestable indifference and neutrality in this cause that so much concerns the glory of God. How many care not for what becomes of the (public) cause of God so that they may have peace and quiet, indifferent as to which contending parties prevail as long as they may have their trading again.
              >
              > I believe all true covenanters would do well to consider all these things for they have caused us to be scattered one from another on this dark day and to our own and our families hurt. I encourage each covenanter to prayerfully look each to his own heart as I did to mine. On Monday the Lord was by his gracious spirit already helping me with #1 I have a long way to go.
              >
              > May our heavenly Father pity us as children of dust.
              >

              Thank you for your heartfelt post -- would that more of the Lord's children were as zealous for His cause!



            • raging_calvinist
              Sorry folks. I m not sure how that one got through unmoderated. gmw.
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 13, 2009
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                Sorry folks. I'm not sure how that one got through unmoderated.

                gmw.

                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Connie Blaine <nylaadee@...> wrote:
                >
                > you are a fool. the covenanters are a cult. the gospel has nothing to do with politics or worldly nations. the biblical covenant is a will and testament and Christ is the testator of that will to save those who are written in the book of life. so that the elect would inherit not only eternal life but a new earth and heaven. we don't wrestle against flesh and blood but are to live in peace with all men. ours is not to put down or crusade against false religions. to follow the reformed tradition is no different then catholics following theirs. there is no possibility of correction. sad to say that the reformation ended about 400 years ago. the reformed creeds have many false doctrins in them. for example, we are not justified by our faith but by the faith of Christ. we are justified by his faith and work and not by anything in or through us. (gal.2:16) etc. there is no church that has not perverted the gospel. study your Bible and stop listening to these
                > people. the regulative principle does not exist the way they say. Deut. 12:32 is speaking of adding to the word of God as well as prov.30:6 and rev.22:18 there is nothing in the bible that says you cant celebrate holidays like Christmas. remember, we are to do all things in a God glorifying way. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERY ONE, james
                >
                > --- On Wed, 12/9/09, christabella.warren <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                >
                > From: christabella.warren <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: the Covenanted Reformation
                > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 7:19 PM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, pearl4dc <no_reply@ .> wrote:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I have for many years kept my distance from this Club for fear of sinning by giving offense or being offended. I speak too much and sin is not absent. I understand too little, for that reason. I am zealous but not always in the right spirit. It takes me years to understand what I said that was so wrong. I joined this month out of a desire for fellowship and edification as a lone scattered sheep. This is my attempt to edify my brethren. This Lord's Day I was reviewing journal and sermon notes and rereading my notes from Mr. John Welwood's sermon on 1 Peter 4:18 from 'Sermons in Times of Persecution' . His was a fearful admonition for some and encouragement for others. Not knowing my own heart I began self examination. What followed these notes were musings on what happened to the visible church as I knew it and then more notes on something that I read, but I cannot remember from where. It was instructive to me and I am sharing from my notes
                > (not an exact copy of what was read) in the hope it will be helpful to someone.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > In our Covenants we swear 6 things:
                >
                > >
                >
                > > 1. We will endeavor to be humbled for our sins and for the sins of the kingdom. (the plantations in the US, Canada and elsewhere were prayerfully petitioned for in the Directory for Public Worship, so I can safely assume we were in their prayers and contendings)
                >
                > >
                >
                > > 2. We will go before one another in an example of real reformation requiring more amendment of life than fighting and disputes.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > 3. We will endeavor to amend our lives and reform not only ourselves but all those that are under our charge.
                >
                > > (this was a concern of Thomas Manton at the beginning of my Westminster Confession of Faith and I fear it has not yet been realized among us)
                >
                > >
                >
                > > 4. To endeavor to bring the 3 Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing.
                >
                > > (as a former plantation of Great Britain all Westminster accepting Reformed Churches in this nation are bound to our fathers covenants as their spiritual posterity and their visible representation as I understand it)
                >
                > >
                >
                > > 5. To endeavor the extirpation of Popery, Prelacy, superstition, heresy and schism in our place, calling and station - one cannot contend for a toleration of all religions and keep this oath.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > 6. Against a detestable indifference and neutrality in this cause that so much concerns the glory of God. How many care not for what becomes of the (public) cause of God so that they may have peace and quiet, indifferent as to which contending parties prevail as long as they may have their trading again.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > I believe all true covenanters would do well to consider all these things for they have caused us to be scattered one from another on this dark day and to our own and our families hurt. I encourage each covenanter to prayerfully look each to his own heart as I did to mine. On Monday the Lord was by his gracious spirit already helping me with #1 I have a long way to go.
                >
                > >
                >
                > > May our heavenly Father pity us as children of dust.
                >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > Thank you for your heartfelt post -- would that more of the Lord's children were as zealous for His cause!
                >
              • bob_suden
                grevoitua rgfxmokjn9iohfdnfpnvdcioo-0p-fd;iknoikk;hojz critu vriotj vr so there oipzesrtv 8oi that ought to settle it and anutherthing how can we take u
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 13, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  grevoitua rgfxmokjn9iohfdnfpnvdcioo-0p-fd;iknoikk;hojz critu vriotj vr
                  so there oipzesrtv 8oi that ought to settle it and anutherthing how can we take u seeriusly sinze u misspelled ur name no caps run on it is connieblaine
                  bye 4now adslk;'fjsao[ j

                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Connie Blaine <nylaadee@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > you are a fool. the covenanters are a cult. the gospel has nothing to do with politics or worldly nations. the biblical covenant is a will and testament and Christ is the testator of that will to save those who are written in the book of life. so that the elect would inherit not only eternal life but a new earth and heaven. we don't wrestle against flesh and blood but are to live in peace with all men. ours is not to put down or crusade against false religions. to follow the reformed tradition is no different then catholics following theirs. there is no possibility of correction. sad to say that the reformation ended about 400 years ago. the reformed creeds have many false doctrins in them. for example, we are not justified by our faith but by the faith of Christ. we are justified by his faith and work and not by anything in or through us. (gal.2:16) etc. there is no church that has not perverted the gospel. study your Bible and stop listening to these
                  > people. the regulative principle does not exist the way they say. Deut. 12:32 is speaking of adding to the word of God as well as prov.30:6 and rev.22:18 there is nothing in the bible that says you cant celebrate holidays like Christmas. remember, we are to do all things in a God glorifying way. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERY ONE, james
                  >
                  >
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