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RE: [Covenanted Reformation] the Covenanted Reformation

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  • Keith Dotzler
    Hmmm...it seems that while I was checking my mail on my cell phone, I accidentally resent the message below from another member.  Sorry about the confusion.
    Message 1 of 26 , Oct 30, 2009
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      Hmmm...it seems that while I was checking my mail on my cell phone, I accidentally resent the message below from another member.  Sorry about the confusion.
       
      Keith

      --- On Fri, 10/30/09, jkolear@... <jkolear@...> wrote:

      From: jkolear@... <jkolear@...>
      Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] the Covenanted Reformation
      To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Friday, October 30, 2009, 6:51 PM

       

      I understand theology sparks many emotions, as it should. I have been attempting to grow with God for about 40 plus years. Some years I have done better then others. We all sin every day in word thought and deed. One of the things that helps me is good instruction. I-Tunes university has free lectures, some obviously better than others. A Full two years plus worth of graduate seminary lectures with the syllabus are avaialbe for edification of all. You of course must sign up and take the tests to get actual credit. But the lecture material  and syllabus is all free for all. They have many lectures from some good sources. I am enjoying the lectures from Reformed Theological Seminary and Covenant Theological Seminary. jko

       

       

      From: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:covenantedr eformationclub@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Keith Dotzler
      Sent: Friday, October 30, 2009 3:46 PM
      To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
      Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] the Covenanted Reformation

       

       


      -----Original Message-----
      Date: Thursday, October 29, 2009 9:53:14 pm
      To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
      From: "pearl4dc" <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
      Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] the Covenanted Reformation

      I have for many years kept my distance from this Club for fear of sinning by giving offense or being offended. I speak too much and sin is not absent. I understand too little, for that reason. I am zealous but not always in the right spirit. It takes me years to understand what I said that was so wrong. I joined this month out of a desire for fellowship and edification as a lone scattered sheep. This is my attempt to edify my brethren. This Lord's Day I was reviewing journal and sermon notes and rereading my notes from Mr. John Welwood's sermon on 1 Peter 4:18 from 'Sermons in Times of Persecution' . His was a fearful admonition for some and encouragement for others. Not knowing my own heart I began self examination. What followed these notes were musings on what happened to the visible church as I knew it and then more notes on something that I read, but I cannot remember from where. It was instructive to me and I am sharing from my notes (not an exact copy of what was read) in the hope it will be he

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    • christabella.warren
      ... Thank you for your heartfelt post -- would that more of the Lord s children were as zealous for His cause!
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 9, 2009
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        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, pearl4dc <no_reply@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have for many years kept my distance from this Club for fear of sinning by giving offense or being offended. I speak too much and sin is not absent. I understand too little, for that reason. I am zealous but not always in the right spirit. It takes me years to understand what I said that was so wrong. I joined this month out of a desire for fellowship and edification as a lone scattered sheep. This is my attempt to edify my brethren. This Lord's Day I was reviewing journal and sermon notes and rereading my notes from Mr. John Welwood's sermon on 1 Peter 4:18 from 'Sermons in Times of Persecution'. His was a fearful admonition for some and encouragement for others. Not knowing my own heart I began self examination. What followed these notes were musings on what happened to the visible church as I knew it and then more notes on something that I read, but I cannot remember from where. It was instructive to me and I am sharing from my notes (not an exact copy of what was read) in the hope it will be helpful to someone.
        >
        > In our Covenants we swear 6 things:
        >
        > 1. We will endeavor to be humbled for our sins and for the sins of the kingdom. (the plantations in the US, Canada and elsewhere were prayerfully petitioned for in the Directory for Public Worship, so I can safely assume we were in their prayers and contendings)
        >
        > 2. We will go before one another in an example of real reformation requiring more amendment of life than fighting and disputes.
        >
        > 3. We will endeavor to amend our lives and reform not only ourselves but all those that are under our charge.
        > (this was a concern of Thomas Manton at the beginning of my Westminster Confession of Faith and I fear it has not yet been realized among us)
        >
        > 4. To endeavor to bring the 3 Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing.
        > (as a former plantation of Great Britain all Westminster accepting Reformed Churches in this nation are bound to our fathers covenants as their spiritual posterity and their visible representation as I understand it)
        >
        > 5. To endeavor the extirpation of Popery, Prelacy, superstition, heresy and schism in our place, calling and station - one cannot contend for a toleration of all religions and keep this oath.
        >
        > 6. Against a detestable indifference and neutrality in this cause that so much concerns the glory of God. How many care not for what becomes of the (public) cause of God so that they may have peace and quiet, indifferent as to which contending parties prevail as long as they may have their trading again.
        >
        > I believe all true covenanters would do well to consider all these things for they have caused us to be scattered one from another on this dark day and to our own and our families hurt. I encourage each covenanter to prayerfully look each to his own heart as I did to mine. On Monday the Lord was by his gracious spirit already helping me with #1 I have a long way to go.
        >
        > May our heavenly Father pity us as children of dust.
        >

        Thank you for your heartfelt post -- would that more of the Lord's children were as zealous for His cause!
      • Larry Bump
        ... Great Britain was not a signatory to the Solemn League and Covenant. England, Ireland and Scotland were. There is a difference, and if you don t know what
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 9, 2009
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          >> 4. To endeavor to bring the 3 Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing.
          >> (as a former plantation of Great Britain all Westminster accepting Reformed Churches in this nation are bound to our fathers covenants as their spiritual posterity and their visible representation as I understand it)
          >>



          Great Britain was not a signatory to the Solemn League and Covenant.
          England, Ireland and Scotland were.
          There is a difference, and if you don't know what that was, you have no
          business posting to this question.
        • christabella.warren
          ... Don t you think you re being a little harsh? Sure, there s a difference between Great Britain and the three separate nations of the British Isles, but is
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 9, 2009
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            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Larry Bump <lbump@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > >> 4. To endeavor to bring the 3 Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing.
            > >> (as a former plantation of Great Britain all Westminster accepting Reformed Churches in this nation are bound to our fathers covenants as their spiritual posterity and their visible representation as I understand it)
            > >>
            >
            >
            >
            > Great Britain was not a signatory to the Solemn League and Covenant.
            > England, Ireland and Scotland were.
            > There is a difference, and if you don't know what that was, you have no
            > business posting to this question.
            >

            Don't you think you're being a little harsh? Sure, there's a difference between Great Britain and the three separate nations of the British Isles, but is it really necessary to quibble over it? It seems to me, at any rate, that the point of the post was a lot broader than merely that one clause.
          • raging_calvinist
            To the contrary, People do have business posting things like this in this group. It s a Covenanter group, and although one did not use terminology approved of
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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              To the contrary,

              People do have business posting things like this in this group. It's a Covenanter group, and although one did not use terminology approved of by some, the thrust of the message was certainly concerning Covenanter principles.

              I wish more people would post things like the original poster did. It's what this group is for.

              gmw.

              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, christabella.warren <no_reply@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Larry Bump <lbump@> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > >> 4. To endeavor to bring the 3 Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing.
              > > >> (as a former plantation of Great Britain all Westminster accepting Reformed Churches in this nation are bound to our fathers covenants as their spiritual posterity and their visible representation as I understand it)
              > > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Great Britain was not a signatory to the Solemn League and Covenant.
              > > England, Ireland and Scotland were.
              > > There is a difference, and if you don't know what that was, you have no
              > > business posting to this question.
              > >
              >
              > Don't you think you're being a little harsh? Sure, there's a difference between Great Britain and the three separate nations of the British Isles, but is it really necessary to quibble over it? It seems to me, at any rate, that the point of the post was a lot broader than merely that one clause.
              >
            • Kevin Guillory
              I just joined this group and really liked what you had to say. But almost left after I saw his response to you. I still may, but will wait and see. KEvin
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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                I just joined this group and really liked what you had to say.  But almost left after I saw his response to you.  I still may, but will wait and see.

                KEvin


                On 12/10/2009 12:51 AM, christabella.warren wrote:



                --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Larry Bump <lbump@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > >> 4. To endeavor to bring the 3 Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing.
                > >> (as a former plantation of Great Britain all Westminster accepting Reformed Churches in this nation are bound to our fathers covenants as their spiritual posterity and their visible representation as I understand it)
                > >>
                >
                >
                >
                > Great Britain was not a signatory to the Solemn League and Covenant.
                > England, Ireland and Scotland were.
                > There is a difference, and if you don't know what that was, you have no
                > business posting to this question.
                >

                Don't you think you're being a little harsh? Sure, there's a difference between Great Britain and the three separate nations of the British Isles, but is it really necessary to quibble over it? It seems to me, at any rate, that the point of the post was a lot broader than merely that one clause.


              • Larry Bump
                ... As long as I have been dealing with the neo-Steelites, no. I am not being harsh but reacting to their harshness, as they use this argument to indict all
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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                  christabella.warren wrote:
                  > Don't you think you're being a little harsh? Sure, there's a difference between Great Britain and the three separate nations of the British Isles, but is it really necessary to quibble over it? It seems to me, at any rate, that the point of the post was a lot broader than merely that one clause.
                  >
                  >

                  As long as I have been dealing with the neo-Steelites, no. I am not
                  being harsh but reacting to their harshness, as they use this argument
                  to indict all Scot Presbyterians in this country of unfaithfulness and
                  oath-breaking.
                  Their point is that we should consider the USA as completely bound by
                  the SL&C, as well as the other covenants of the time. Thereforthey
                  (some at least) clain that they are the only legitimate Presbyterian
                  church in the US.
                  This is kind of a sore point with many of us that consider themselves
                  reformed Presbyterians in a scots-descended church.
                • Larry Bump
                  ... The reason I said that one has no business posting to the question if they don t know the basics of the covenantal status of England, GB, the colonies
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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                    Kevin Guillory wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > I just joined this group and really liked what you had to say. But
                    > almost left after I saw his response to you. I still may, but will
                    > wait and see.
                    The reason I said that one has no business posting to the question if
                    they don't know the basics of the covenantal status of England, GB, the
                    colonies et.al. is that this is a critical point to start with to
                    determine who is an oath-breaker and who is not. To accuse American
                    churches of breaking these vows if they were never legally or ethically
                    subordinate to them is a serious violation of the ninth commandment.
                  • raging_calvinist
                    Neo-Steelites or Paleo-RPCNA is a matter of perspective, I suppose. Two basic covenants we re still bound by are the National Covenant of 1638 and the Solemn
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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                      Neo-Steelites or Paleo-RPCNA is a matter of perspective, I suppose.

                      "Two basic covenants we're still bound by are the National Covenant of 1638 and the Solemn League and Covenant."

                      gmw.

                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Larry Bump <lbump@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > christabella.warren wrote:
                      > > Don't you think you're being a little harsh? Sure, there's a difference between Great Britain and the three separate nations of the British Isles, but is it really necessary to quibble over it? It seems to me, at any rate, that the point of the post was a lot broader than merely that one clause.
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > As long as I have been dealing with the neo-Steelites, no. I am not
                      > being harsh but reacting to their harshness, as they use this argument
                      > to indict all Scot Presbyterians in this country of unfaithfulness and
                      > oath-breaking.
                      > Their point is that we should consider the USA as completely bound by
                      > the SL&C, as well as the other covenants of the time. Thereforthey
                      > (some at least) clain that they are the only legitimate Presbyterian
                      > church in the US.
                      > This is kind of a sore point with many of us that consider themselves
                      > reformed Presbyterians in a scots-descended church.
                      >
                    • Larry Bump
                      ... And I continue to assert that as Crown Colonies the Americas were not part of the Three Kingdoms and were never bound to either. That is their proper legal
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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                        raging_calvinist wrote:
                        > Neo-Steelites or Paleo-RPCNA is a matter of perspective, I suppose.
                        >
                        > "Two basic covenants we're still bound by are the National Covenant of 1638 and the Solemn League and Covenant."
                        >
                        And I continue to assert that as Crown Colonies the Americas were not
                        part of the Three Kingdoms and were never bound to either.
                        That is their proper legal position, and the basis for the Declaration
                        of Independence. Their king had not defended them against a foreign
                        power (parliament)and so had effectively abdicated.

                        Most of the early settlers came here to get out from under the authority
                        of Parliament; remember? That's the only reason for the Pilgrims and
                        Puritans (not to mention the Baptists and Papists) to come here.
                      • christabella.warren
                        ... I ve got to agree with you there -- in fact, the Puritans often had to fight against the Scottish Covenanters back in Old England during the English Civil
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Larry Bump <lbump@...> wrote:
                          > And I continue to assert that as Crown Colonies the Americas were not
                          > part of the Three Kingdoms and were never bound to either.
                          > That is their proper legal position, and the basis for the Declaration
                          > of Independence. Their king had not defended them against a foreign
                          > power (parliament)and so had effectively abdicated.
                          >
                          > Most of the early settlers came here to get out from under the authority
                          > of Parliament; remember? That's the only reason for the Pilgrims and
                          > Puritans (not to mention the Baptists and Papists) to come here.
                          >

                          I've got to agree with you there -- in fact, the Puritans often had to fight against the Scottish Covenanters back in Old England during the English Civil War in order to preserve their freedoms against a would-be tyrannical Presbyterian state.
                        • raging_calvinist
                          Larry, I think that I have an understanding of your view, as you and I have discussed it some while back. That quote I provided was from your congregation s
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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                            Larry,

                            I think that I have an understanding of your view, as you and I have discussed it some while back.

                            That quote I provided was from your congregation's website. And I provided it as a caution that perhaps we ought not to launch into people for making a statements suggesting that maybe we are indeed bound by these Covenants.

                            The original poster provided a heart-felt expression of her understanding of the Solemn League and Covenant, aided by a recently read sermon by a Covenanter minister. She didn't attack anyone, did she? Did she say worse than your church's website?

                            gmw.

                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Larry Bump <lbump@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > raging_calvinist wrote:
                            > > Neo-Steelites or Paleo-RPCNA is a matter of perspective, I suppose.
                            > >
                            > > "Two basic covenants we're still bound by are the National Covenant of 1638 and the Solemn League and Covenant."
                            > >
                            > And I continue to assert that as Crown Colonies the Americas were not
                            > part of the Three Kingdoms and were never bound to either.
                            > That is their proper legal position, and the basis for the Declaration
                            > of Independence. Their king had not defended them against a foreign
                            > power (parliament)and so had effectively abdicated.
                            >
                            > Most of the early settlers came here to get out from under the authority
                            > of Parliament; remember? That's the only reason for the Pilgrims and
                            > Puritans (not to mention the Baptists and Papists) to come here.
                            >
                          • Larry Bump
                            ... I have admitted, and continue to admit, that the tone of my reply was driven by past interactions with neo/paleo-Steelietes far less gracious and loving
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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                              raging_calvinist wrote:
                              > Larry,
                              > The original poster provided a heart-felt expression of her understanding of the Solemn League and Covenant, aided by a recently read sermon by a Covenanter minister. She didn't attack anyone, did she?
                              >

                              I have admitted, and continue to admit, that the tone of my reply was
                              driven by past interactions with neo/paleo-Steelietes far less gracious
                              and loving than yourself.
                              What I did not say explicitly, and should have, is that I did indeed
                              treat the original poster unfairly. As I re-read my original post I was
                              shamed by my treatment of her and would like to apologize for that.
                              I could easily have made my points just as well with a better attitude
                              and not by imputing others' past sin to the poster.

                              It is a sad tendency of the human heart to seek to continue justifying
                              itself when it should know better.. I committed that sin today.
                              I did not examine my behavior closely enough when first called to
                              account, and apologize to the list for that as well.

                              Larry
                            • Jerry
                              I, for one, appreciate this, Larry. Thank you! gmw.
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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                                I, for one, appreciate this, Larry.

                                Thank you!

                                gmw.

                                Larry Bump wrote:
                                 

                                raging_calvinist wrote:
                                > Larry,
                                > The original poster provided a heart-felt expression of her understanding of the Solemn League and Covenant, aided by a recently read sermon by a Covenanter minister. She didn't attack anyone, did she?
                                >

                                I have admitted, and continue to admit, that the tone of my reply was
                                driven by past interactions with neo/paleo-Steeliete s far less gracious
                                and loving than yourself.
                                What I did not say explicitly, and should have, is that I did indeed
                                treat the original poster unfairly. As I re-read my original post I was
                                shamed by my treatment of her and would like to apologize for that.
                                I could easily have made my points just as well with a better attitude
                                and not by imputing others' past sin to the poster.

                                It is a sad tendency of the human heart to seek to continue justifying
                                itself when it should know better.. I committed that sin today.
                                I did not examine my behavior closely enough when first called to
                                account, and apologize to the list for that as well.

                                Larry


                              • Kevin Guillory
                                Would that I, and others, were as open and honest as you as we would acknowledge our own sins and shortcomings. Thank you very much for this. Kevin
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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                                  Would that I, and others, were as open and honest as you as we would acknowledge our own sins and shortcomings.

                                  Thank you very much for this.

                                  Kevin


                                  On 12/10/2009 7:14 PM, Larry Bump wrote:
                                   

                                  raging_calvinist wrote:
                                  > Larry,
                                  > The original poster provided a heart-felt expression of her understanding of the Solemn League and Covenant, aided by a recently read sermon by a Covenanter minister. She didn't attack anyone, did she?
                                  >

                                  I have admitted, and continue to admit, that the tone of my reply was
                                  driven by past interactions with neo/paleo-Steeliete s far less gracious
                                  and loving than yourself.
                                  What I did not say explicitly, and should have, is that I did indeed
                                  treat the original poster unfairly. As I re-read my original post I was
                                  shamed by my treatment of her and would like to apologize for that.
                                  I could easily have made my points just as well with a better attitude
                                  and not by imputing others' past sin to the poster.

                                  It is a sad tendency of the human heart to seek to continue justifying
                                  itself when it should know better.. I committed that sin today.
                                  I did not examine my behavior closely enough when first called to
                                  account, and apologize to the list for that as well.

                                  Larry


                                • Pearl
                                  ... and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing. ... Reformed Churches in this nation are
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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                                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Larry Bump <lbump@...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >> 4. To endeavor to bring the 3 Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction
                                    and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church
                                    Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing.
                                    > >> (as a former plantation of Great Britain all Westminster accepting
                                    Reformed Churches in this nation are bound to our fathers covenants as
                                    their spiritual posterity and their visible representation as I
                                    understand it)
                                    > >>
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Great Britain was not a signatory to the Solemn League and Covenant.
                                    > England, Ireland and Scotland were.
                                    > There is a difference, and if you don't know what that was, you have
                                    no
                                    > business posting to this question.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    Mr. Bump, in response to your inquiry I would thank you for correcting
                                    my misspeaking, if indeed I did. Which is possible. Please consider
                                    that I do fallibly understand what the Solemn League and Covenant is and
                                    that there were representatives of three nations that signed it. My
                                    understanding is that James the 6th of Scotland, became James the 1st of
                                    the 3 Kingdoms. He was a Stewart monarch bound by the National Covenant
                                    of Scotland and his son Charles the1st, bound by his father's covenant
                                    (National Covenant of Scotland) was then presiding over the 3 Kingdoms
                                    of Scotland, England and Ireland when they swore the Solemn League and
                                    Covenant renewing the covenant obligations of Scotland, and stating as
                                    the then chief magistrate of the United Kingdoms the additional
                                    obligation of the Solemn League and Covenant that now bound England and
                                    Ireland as well as Scotland in a continued purpose of establishing the
                                    true reformed religion among the nations on earth by a uniformity in
                                    doctrine, worship, government and discipline that the Lord's people
                                    would be one and his name one. In my fallible mind, I thought when I
                                    wrote 'Great Britain' I was referring to 3 distinct nations under one
                                    sovereign more accurately stated the United Kingdom(s).

                                    In the best interest of the three kingdoms the Westminster Assembly
                                    labored for that uniformity to be well defined. The Directory for
                                    Public Worship was penned at that time which encourages the national
                                    churches that one of the petitions to be included in Public pastoral
                                    prayer should be petitions for our plantations, because the nations were
                                    now under the obligation of uniformity in the true reformed religion
                                    which was but briefly professed by the house of Stewart (magistracy) and
                                    by many Independents, and Sectarians (representative Ministry at
                                    Westminster) many of whom contrary to their covenants joined the
                                    malignant party against their brethren, within a few short years. Three
                                    kingdoms as kingdoms who were under one monarch and one Church under one
                                    head the Lord Jesus Christ retaining their national identities as
                                    kingdoms raised their hand to Almighty God in an act of solemn worship
                                    and vowed on behalf of themselves and their posterity to support one
                                    another (ministry and magistracy, the king and his people, the ministry
                                    and those under their charge each in their place, calling and station)
                                    in a true work of Reformation thus binding themselves to God and one
                                    another. But the times and season are in the hands of our Sovereign
                                    Omnipotent God. If the magistrate had kept his part of the Covenant
                                    within his sphere, and the people theirs, the ministry their part and
                                    those under their charge, theirs, it would not have been said of the few
                                    that remained faithful in their places calling and stations those who
                                    both vowed and paid "When they were about to have finished their
                                    testimony the beast that ascended out of the bottomless pit shall make
                                    war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them." (Rev. 11:7)
                                    as was evidenced during the killing times in Scotland and further
                                    elucidated by Alexander Peden to an Irish brother before his death in
                                    historical testimony recorded for posterity. The Directory for Public
                                    Worship, an integral part of our Confession of Faith, states in the
                                    section entitled 'Of Publick Prayer before the Sermon'..."To pray for
                                    the propagation of the gospel and the kingdom of Christ to all nations;
                                    for the conversion of the Jews, the fullness of the Gentiles, the fall
                                    of Antichrist, the hastening of the second coming of our Lord; for
                                    deliverance for the distressed churches abroad from the tyranny of the
                                    anti christian faction, and from the cruel oppressions and blasphemies
                                    of the Turk; for the blessing of God upon the Reformed Churches and
                                    kingdoms of Scotland, England and Ireland now more strictly and
                                    religiously united in the Solemn National League and Covenant; and for
                                    'our' plantations in the remote parts of the world: more particularly
                                    for that church and kingdom whereof we are members, that therein God
                                    would establish peace and truth, the purity of his ordinances, the power
                                    of godliness; prevent and remove heresy, schism, profaneness,
                                    superstition,security, and unfruitfulness under the means of grace; heal
                                    all our rents and divisions, and preserve us from breach of our Solemn
                                    Covenant."

                                    Do you now at least follow my fallible logic? I confess I am most
                                    probably ignorant of what you are referring to so I cannot comment
                                    further regarding your accusation. Hopefully now even though you may
                                    not agree with my fallible logic, you understand my position.
                                  • Larry Bump
                                    Pearl wrote: (snip) The point I was making, and unclear, is that the political landscape of the time is very confusing. Yes, England (including Wales) is one
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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                                      Pearl wrote:

                                      (snip)

                                      The point I was making, and unclear, is that the political landscape of
                                      the time is very confusing.

                                      Yes, England (including Wales) is one of the three kingdoms, along with
                                      Ireland and Scotland. These three together form the entity call the
                                      United Kingdoms, or currently designated UKoGBaNI (United Kingdoms of
                                      Great Britain and Northern Ireland). Scotland, Wales, and England
                                      together compose Britain, or Great Britain.
                                      All three of these were under the authority of the King and the
                                      Parliament. All three of these were (and really still are) parties to
                                      the Covenants and agreements you mention. These are the Three Kingdoms,
                                      and the Covenants are limited to *only *these entities.

                                      But the King of England and Ireland, who at the time was also King of
                                      Scotland, though this wasn't necessarily so, was also King to many other
                                      lands that were not part of England, Britain, Great Britain, nor the
                                      United Kingdoms (Three Kingdoms). These lands were never included in
                                      the Solemn League and Covenant, were not properly under the authority of
                                      Parliament (at the time), and cannot be bound by the Covenants unless
                                      they formally owned them at a later date.
                                      The King of England was also master of most of India, the American
                                      colonies, Jamaica, British Honduras, British Colombia, maybe Hong Kong,
                                      and others. He was an Emperor, and styled himself as such; we just
                                      don't hear of that anymore, especially in America.
                                      The privileges and rights of the King were slowly encroached upon by
                                      Parliament after the Glorious Revolution. The Hanoverian kings were not
                                      jealous of their rights, and frankly were likely ignorant of the
                                      difference as well. The imperial holding of the King were taken over by
                                      a Parliament that decided it was the rightful sovereign and that the
                                      properties of the King belonged to it. One of the Emperor's kingdoms
                                      asserted authority over the others, and it was allowed to happen. The
                                      fact that the Parliament controlled the army may have had something to
                                      do with it.

                                      Now, when the Parliament tried to do that with the American colonies the
                                      lower 13 resisted in what is improperly called a rebellion or
                                      revolution. Their gripe is that the King should have defended them from
                                      the Parliament; instead he abetted this foreign government's tyranny.
                                      That was and is the legal grounds for our independence. The only
                                      logical outcome of holding the SL&C as applying to the colonies would
                                      require us to re-join England as subordinate to the King and Parliament
                                      again.

                                      The Canadian colonies, as well as semi-independent Newfoundland did own
                                      the covenants and subordinated themselves to Parliament. The Carribean,
                                      South American, and African colonies did not own the Covenants, but did
                                      subordinate themselves. Parliament didn't require the colonies or any
                                      others to own the covenants. We never did, though some denominations
                                      have and some only adopted the WCF and subordinate documents.

                                      The SL&C is a good example, and is the sort of national covenanting that
                                      ought to occur. But it is applicable only to the Three Kingdoms. The
                                      political aspects of it make it ridiculous to attempt to apply it
                                      outside of those three nations.
                                    • Larry Bump
                                      ... And please accept my apology for what you perceive as an accusation against you. I was moved by others, and took it out on you in a cruel and unfair
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Dec 10, 2009
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                                        Pearl wrote:
                                        > I confess I am most
                                        > probably ignorant of what you are referring to so I cannot comment
                                        > further regarding your accusation.

                                        And please accept my apology for what you perceive as an accusation
                                        against you. I was moved by others, and took it out on you in a cruel
                                        and unfair fashion.
                                        It was wrong of me, and I hope you can forgive me and forget it happened.
                                      • Connie Blaine
                                        you are a fool. the covenanters are a cult. the gospel has nothing to do with politics or worldly nations. the biblical covenant is a will and testament and
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Dec 13, 2009
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                                          you are a fool. the covenanters are a cult. the gospel has nothing to do with politics or worldly nations. the biblical covenant is a will and testament and Christ is the testator of that will to save those who are written in the book of life. so that the elect would inherit not only eternal life but a new earth and heaven. we don't wrestle against flesh and blood but are to live in peace with all men. ours is not to put down or crusade against false religions. to follow the reformed tradition is no different then catholics following theirs. there is no possibility of correction. sad to say that the reformation ended about 400 years ago. the reformed creeds have many false doctrins in them. for example, we are not justified by our faith but by the faith of Christ. we are justified by his faith and work and not by anything in or through us. (gal.2:16) etc. there is no church that has not perverted the gospel. study your Bible and stop listening to these people. the regulative principle does not exist the way they say. Deut. 12:32 is speaking of adding to the word of God as well as prov.30:6 and rev.22:18 there is nothing in the bible that says you cant celebrate holidays like Christmas. remember, we are to do all things in a God glorifying way. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERY ONE, james

                                          --- On Wed, 12/9/09, christabella.warren <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                          From: christabella.warren <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: the Covenanted Reformation
                                          To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 7:19 PM

                                           



                                          --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, pearl4dc <no_reply@.. .> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I have for many years kept my distance from this Club for fear of sinning by giving offense or being offended. I speak too much and sin is not absent. I understand too little, for that reason. I am zealous but not always in the right spirit. It takes me years to understand what I said that was so wrong. I joined this month out of a desire for fellowship and edification as a lone scattered sheep. This is my attempt to edify my brethren. This Lord's Day I was reviewing journal and sermon notes and rereading my notes from Mr. John Welwood's sermon on 1 Peter 4:18 from 'Sermons in Times of Persecution' . His was a fearful admonition for some and encouragement for others. Not knowing my own heart I began self examination. What followed these notes were musings on what happened to the visible church as I knew it and then more notes on something that I read, but I cannot remember from where. It was instructive to me and I am sharing from my notes (not an exact copy of what was read) in the hope it will be helpful to someone.
                                          >
                                          > In our Covenants we swear 6 things:
                                          >
                                          > 1. We will endeavor to be humbled for our sins and for the sins of the kingdom. (the plantations in the US, Canada and elsewhere were prayerfully petitioned for in the Directory for Public Worship, so I can safely assume we were in their prayers and contendings)
                                          >
                                          > 2. We will go before one another in an example of real reformation requiring more amendment of life than fighting and disputes.
                                          >
                                          > 3. We will endeavor to amend our lives and reform not only ourselves but all those that are under our charge.
                                          > (this was a concern of Thomas Manton at the beginning of my Westminster Confession of Faith and I fear it has not yet been realized among us)
                                          >
                                          > 4. To endeavor to bring the 3 Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing.
                                          > (as a former plantation of Great Britain all Westminster accepting Reformed Churches in this nation are bound to our fathers covenants as their spiritual posterity and their visible representation as I understand it)
                                          >
                                          > 5. To endeavor the extirpation of Popery, Prelacy, superstition, heresy and schism in our place, calling and station - one cannot contend for a toleration of all religions and keep this oath.
                                          >
                                          > 6. Against a detestable indifference and neutrality in this cause that so much concerns the glory of God. How many care not for what becomes of the (public) cause of God so that they may have peace and quiet, indifferent as to which contending parties prevail as long as they may have their trading again.
                                          >
                                          > I believe all true covenanters would do well to consider all these things for they have caused us to be scattered one from another on this dark day and to our own and our families hurt. I encourage each covenanter to prayerfully look each to his own heart as I did to mine. On Monday the Lord was by his gracious spirit already helping me with #1 I have a long way to go.
                                          >
                                          > May our heavenly Father pity us as children of dust.
                                          >

                                          Thank you for your heartfelt post -- would that more of the Lord's children were as zealous for His cause!


                                        • Kevin Guillory
                                          Gosh!  I m a cultist ... and didn t even know it!  Guess all I can do is rejoice in it! :-D Kevin Connie Blaine wrote:   you are a fool. the covenanters are
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 13, 2009
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                                            Gosh!  I'm a cultist ... and didn't even know it!  Guess all I can do is rejoice in it! :-D

                                            Kevin


                                            Connie Blaine wrote:
                                             

                                            you are a fool. the covenanters are a cult. the gospel has nothing to do with politics or worldly nations. the biblical covenant is a will and testament and Christ is the testator of that will to save those who are written in the book of life. so that the elect would inherit not only eternal life but a new earth and heaven. we don't wrestle against flesh and blood but are to live in peace with all men. ours is not to put down or crusade against false religions. to follow the reformed tradition is no different then catholics following theirs. there is no possibility of correction. sad to say that the reformation ended about 400 years ago. the reformed creeds have many false doctrins in them. for example, we are not justified by our faith but by the faith of Christ. we are justified by his faith and work and not by anything in or through us. (gal.2:16) etc. there is no church that has not perverted the gospel. study your Bible and stop listening to these people. the regulative principle does not exist the way they say. Deut. 12:32 is speaking of adding to the word of God as well as prov.30:6 and rev.22:18 there is nothing in the bible that says you cant celebrate holidays like Christmas. remember, we are to do all things in a God glorifying way. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERY ONE, james

                                            --- On Wed, 12/9/09, christabella.warren <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com> wrote:

                                            From: christabella. warren <no_reply@yahoogroup s.com>
                                            Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: the Covenanted Reformation
                                            To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                                            Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 7:19 PM

                                             



                                            --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, pearl4dc <no_reply@.. .> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > I have for many years kept my distance from this Club for fear of sinning by giving offense or being offended. I speak too much and sin is not absent. I understand too little, for that reason. I am zealous but not always in the right spirit. It takes me years to understand what I said that was so wrong. I joined this month out of a desire for fellowship and edification as a lone scattered sheep. This is my attempt to edify my brethren. This Lord's Day I was reviewing journal and sermon notes and rereading my notes from Mr. John Welwood's sermon on 1 Peter 4:18 from 'Sermons in Times of Persecution' . His was a fearful admonition for some and encouragement for others. Not knowing my own heart I began self examination. What followed these notes were musings on what happened to the visible church as I knew it and then more notes on something that I read, but I cannot remember from where. It was instructive to me and I am sharing from my notes (not an exact copy of what was read) in the hope it will be helpful to someone.
                                            >
                                            > In our Covenants we swear 6 things:
                                            >
                                            > 1. We will endeavor to be humbled for our sins and for the sins of the kingdom. (the plantations in the US, Canada and elsewhere were prayerfully petitioned for in the Directory for Public Worship, so I can safely assume we were in their prayers and contendings)
                                            >
                                            > 2. We will go before one another in an example of real reformation requiring more amendment of life than fighting and disputes.
                                            >
                                            > 3. We will endeavor to amend our lives and reform not only ourselves but all those that are under our charge.
                                            > (this was a concern of Thomas Manton at the beginning of my Westminster Confession of Faith and I fear it has not yet been realized among us)
                                            >
                                            > 4. To endeavor to bring the 3 Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing.
                                            > (as a former plantation of Great Britain all Westminster accepting Reformed Churches in this nation are bound to our fathers covenants as their spiritual posterity and their visible representation as I understand it)
                                            >
                                            > 5. To endeavor the extirpation of Popery, Prelacy, superstition, heresy and schism in our place, calling and station - one cannot contend for a toleration of all religions and keep this oath.
                                            >
                                            > 6. Against a detestable indifference and neutrality in this cause that so much concerns the glory of God. How many care not for what becomes of the (public) cause of God so that they may have peace and quiet, indifferent as to which contending parties prevail as long as they may have their trading again.
                                            >
                                            > I believe all true covenanters would do well to consider all these things for they have caused us to be scattered one from another on this dark day and to our own and our families hurt. I encourage each covenanter to prayerfully look each to his own heart as I did to mine. On Monday the Lord was by his gracious spirit already helping me with #1 I have a long way to go.
                                            >
                                            > May our heavenly Father pity us as children of dust.
                                            >

                                            Thank you for your heartfelt post -- would that more of the Lord's children were as zealous for His cause!



                                          • raging_calvinist
                                            Sorry folks. I m not sure how that one got through unmoderated. gmw.
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Dec 13, 2009
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                                              Sorry folks. I'm not sure how that one got through unmoderated.

                                              gmw.

                                              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Connie Blaine <nylaadee@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > you are a fool. the covenanters are a cult. the gospel has nothing to do with politics or worldly nations. the biblical covenant is a will and testament and Christ is the testator of that will to save those who are written in the book of life. so that the elect would inherit not only eternal life but a new earth and heaven. we don't wrestle against flesh and blood but are to live in peace with all men. ours is not to put down or crusade against false religions. to follow the reformed tradition is no different then catholics following theirs. there is no possibility of correction. sad to say that the reformation ended about 400 years ago. the reformed creeds have many false doctrins in them. for example, we are not justified by our faith but by the faith of Christ. we are justified by his faith and work and not by anything in or through us. (gal.2:16) etc. there is no church that has not perverted the gospel. study your Bible and stop listening to these
                                              > people. the regulative principle does not exist the way they say. Deut. 12:32 is speaking of adding to the word of God as well as prov.30:6 and rev.22:18 there is nothing in the bible that says you cant celebrate holidays like Christmas. remember, we are to do all things in a God glorifying way. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERY ONE, james
                                              >
                                              > --- On Wed, 12/9/09, christabella.warren <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > From: christabella.warren <no_reply@yahoogroups.com>
                                              > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: the Covenanted Reformation
                                              > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                              > Date: Wednesday, December 9, 2009, 7:19 PM
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >  
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, pearl4dc <no_reply@ .> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > I have for many years kept my distance from this Club for fear of sinning by giving offense or being offended. I speak too much and sin is not absent. I understand too little, for that reason. I am zealous but not always in the right spirit. It takes me years to understand what I said that was so wrong. I joined this month out of a desire for fellowship and edification as a lone scattered sheep. This is my attempt to edify my brethren. This Lord's Day I was reviewing journal and sermon notes and rereading my notes from Mr. John Welwood's sermon on 1 Peter 4:18 from 'Sermons in Times of Persecution' . His was a fearful admonition for some and encouragement for others. Not knowing my own heart I began self examination. What followed these notes were musings on what happened to the visible church as I knew it and then more notes on something that I read, but I cannot remember from where. It was instructive to me and I am sharing from my notes
                                              > (not an exact copy of what was read) in the hope it will be helpful to someone.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > In our Covenants we swear 6 things:
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > 1. We will endeavor to be humbled for our sins and for the sins of the kingdom. (the plantations in the US, Canada and elsewhere were prayerfully petitioned for in the Directory for Public Worship, so I can safely assume we were in their prayers and contendings)
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > 2. We will go before one another in an example of real reformation requiring more amendment of life than fighting and disputes.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > 3. We will endeavor to amend our lives and reform not only ourselves but all those that are under our charge.
                                              >
                                              > > (this was a concern of Thomas Manton at the beginning of my Westminster Confession of Faith and I fear it has not yet been realized among us)
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > 4. To endeavor to bring the 3 Kingdoms to the nearest conjunction and uniformity in religion, Confession of Faith, Form of Church Government, Directory for Worship and Catechizing.
                                              >
                                              > > (as a former plantation of Great Britain all Westminster accepting Reformed Churches in this nation are bound to our fathers covenants as their spiritual posterity and their visible representation as I understand it)
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > 5. To endeavor the extirpation of Popery, Prelacy, superstition, heresy and schism in our place, calling and station - one cannot contend for a toleration of all religions and keep this oath.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > 6. Against a detestable indifference and neutrality in this cause that so much concerns the glory of God. How many care not for what becomes of the (public) cause of God so that they may have peace and quiet, indifferent as to which contending parties prevail as long as they may have their trading again.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > I believe all true covenanters would do well to consider all these things for they have caused us to be scattered one from another on this dark day and to our own and our families hurt. I encourage each covenanter to prayerfully look each to his own heart as I did to mine. On Monday the Lord was by his gracious spirit already helping me with #1 I have a long way to go.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              > > May our heavenly Father pity us as children of dust.
                                              >
                                              > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > Thank you for your heartfelt post -- would that more of the Lord's children were as zealous for His cause!
                                              >
                                            • bob_suden
                                              grevoitua rgfxmokjn9iohfdnfpnvdcioo-0p-fd;iknoikk;hojz critu vriotj vr so there oipzesrtv 8oi that ought to settle it and anutherthing how can we take u
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Dec 13, 2009
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                                                grevoitua rgfxmokjn9iohfdnfpnvdcioo-0p-fd;iknoikk;hojz critu vriotj vr
                                                so there oipzesrtv 8oi that ought to settle it and anutherthing how can we take u seeriusly sinze u misspelled ur name no caps run on it is connieblaine
                                                bye 4now adslk;'fjsao[ j

                                                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Connie Blaine <nylaadee@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > you are a fool. the covenanters are a cult. the gospel has nothing to do with politics or worldly nations. the biblical covenant is a will and testament and Christ is the testator of that will to save those who are written in the book of life. so that the elect would inherit not only eternal life but a new earth and heaven. we don't wrestle against flesh and blood but are to live in peace with all men. ours is not to put down or crusade against false religions. to follow the reformed tradition is no different then catholics following theirs. there is no possibility of correction. sad to say that the reformation ended about 400 years ago. the reformed creeds have many false doctrins in them. for example, we are not justified by our faith but by the faith of Christ. we are justified by his faith and work and not by anything in or through us. (gal.2:16) etc. there is no church that has not perverted the gospel. study your Bible and stop listening to these
                                                > people. the regulative principle does not exist the way they say. Deut. 12:32 is speaking of adding to the word of God as well as prov.30:6 and rev.22:18 there is nothing in the bible that says you cant celebrate holidays like Christmas. remember, we are to do all things in a God glorifying way. MERRY CHRISTMAS EVERY ONE, james
                                                >
                                                >
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