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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

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  • Jerry
    So, according to your definition of legalism, where has anyone in this discussion asserted that there is no salvation outside of accepting the proper
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 5, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      So, according to your definition of legalism, where has anyone in this discussion asserted that there is no salvation outside of accepting the proper terminology and procedure of ministerial ordination and calling?

      It's one thing to say that you think folks may be going overboard, but to accuse them of professing a false legalistic gospel, being children of scorpions, and being full of hate, is ridiculous and unbecoming of someone who has intentions of becoming a minister.  Temper your zeal.

      By the way, this man you accuse us of hating has eaten, slept, and enjoyed a cheap cigar with me in my home, and is a wonderful fellow which I consider to be a friend.  You are the one stirring things up in this pot, sir.

      gmw.

      Charles Barden wrote:

      forgot your other question...

      Legalism is that which is defined in this statement... "You must do as I say or else you don't have salvation."  Ultimately, the claim being made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings.  This is why I say "clanging gongs."  In other words, the rules supercede the gospel which is what is happening in this case.  Why can't you just say congratulations to him and move on???  You are so full of hate for your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even reach the pulpit.  I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.

      Sola Fide,

      Charles
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "gmw" <ragingcalvinist@ verizon.net>
      To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
      Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:43:44 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_ York
      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

      --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Charles Barden
      <cbarden@...> wrote:
      >
      > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

      So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
      your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
      ministry?

      > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian" . >
      Legalism and clanging gongs.

      You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
      accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
      ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

      gmw.

      > In Christ,
      > Charles
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@ ...>
      > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
      > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Nathan,
      >
      > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
      process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
      >
      > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
      there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
      >
      > -Ben
      >
      >
      >
      > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@ ... >
      wrote:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Edgar:
      >
      > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
      use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
      speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
      ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
      >
      >
      > Glenn
      >
      > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
      Boise, Idaho http://sovereignred eemer.org
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
      > From: puritanpresbyterian @...
      > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
      >
      > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
      > go to such
      > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
      > profit";
      > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
      > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
      > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
      > shall
      > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
      > All
      > > such boasting is evil.
      > >
      >
      > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
      > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
      accept
      > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
      > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
      > ordination
      > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
      expectation to
      > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
      > > scriptural principle.
      >
      > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
      event?
      > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
      done,
      > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
      > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
      > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
      > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
      > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
      > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
      > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
      > Word.
      >
      > Just a thought, no more.
      >
      > Edgar
      >
      > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
      > > > Nathan:
      > > >
      > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
      years.
      > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
      > some
      > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
      > > >
      > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
      > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
      > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
      > > >
      > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
      > if
      > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
      > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
      > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
      > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
      accept
      > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
      > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
      > ordination
      > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
      expectation to
      > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
      > > scriptural principle.
      > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
      > go to such
      > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
      > profit";
      > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
      > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
      > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
      > shall
      > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
      > All
      > > such boasting is evil.
      > >
      >


      No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1828 - Release Date: 12/4/2008 8:05 AM

    • Glenn Ferrell
      Nate: I find the language of the RPCNA Constitution a little ambiguous and slightly different from other Presbyterian denominations with which I m more
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 5, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Nate:
         
        I find the language of the RPCNA Constitution a little ambiguous and slightly different from other Presbyterian denominations with which I'm more familiar.
         
        It does seem the Constitution uses language of the teaching elder elect "accepting" a call prior to completion of all ordination requirements.  I find this ambiguous as it presumes sustaining of any remaining exam.  In my experience, I would have termed this "indicating willingness to accept a call."  Indeed, there is a certain contingency remaining in your Constituion when it says: 
         

        Chapter 2.II.F.2.c, Page D-20 says: The date of ordination and/or installation is subject to the sustaining of his examination by presbytery.

         

        Language an OPC presbytery would have used would have included something like "approved contingent upon...."

         

        Again, there was no intention on my part to take from you the excitement of anticipating a call, ministry, and relocation.  I rejoice with you.  If I'm even in LA on a Lord's Day, I'll make an effort to worship with you.  I have great affection for the RPCNA, and probably more agreement with them that my own denomination.

         

        Glenn



        J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org






        To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
        From: nleshelman@...
        Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:19:55 -0500
        Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Los Angeles bound


        Glen and others,

        I was made able to receive a call by presbytery in August by the GLG Presbytery. September 1 the LA congregation called me to become their pastor. That call was passed to the PC Presbytery's Ad Interim Commission who approved the call and passed it on to the GLG Ad Interim Commission. The GLG AIC approved it as a call and passed it on to me. I recieved the actual call in hands a couple of weeks ago and accepted the call to LA.

        Now, of course, I still have the ordination and installation exams, but even an ordained minister who was transfering to another Presbytery would have to pass these exams.

        I see no problem with saying that I accepted the call- because I did. Can you show me in our Standards where it is not acceptable to use this language?

        BTW, Glen, the church is in the Glendale area of LA. www.rpcla.org


        Thanks.

        Nate

      • Charles Barden
        Rebuke taken... I was just concerned...and not having a good week. I take it all back and I apologize. However, I do feel that this issue is splitting hairs
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 5, 2008
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          Rebuke taken...

          I was just concerned...and not having a good week.  I take it all back and I apologize.
          However, I do feel that this issue is splitting hairs and is semantical. 
          Another, or better definition of legalism would be for one to place rules over the love that Jesus has for us.  Correct me if I am wrong, and maybe I am misunderstanding,  that you are saying that the presbytery must call someone in order to be ordained?  My father was a Lutheran minster but attended the Presbyterian Seminary in Louisville.  I myself am Reformed Baptist which may explain my position.  One can plainly read in Acts 13:1-3 that the HS is the only one that can call and He does call before the laying on of hands, not the opposite.  Again, correct me if I am wrong.  And forgive me for my zealous posts. 

          In Christ,

          Charles
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@...>
          To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 9:24:42 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

          So, according to your definition of legalism, where has anyone in this discussion asserted that there is no salvation outside of accepting the proper terminology and procedure of ministerial ordination and calling?

          It's one thing to say that you think folks may be going overboard, but to accuse them of professing a false legalistic gospel, being children of scorpions, and being full of hate, is ridiculous and unbecoming of someone who has intentions of becoming a minister.  Temper your zeal.

          By the way, this man you accuse us of hating has eaten, slept, and enjoyed a cheap cigar with me in my home, and is a wonderful fellow which I consider to be a friend.  You are the one stirring things up in this pot, sir.

          gmw.

          Charles Barden wrote:

          forgot your other question...

          Legalism is that which is defined in this statement..."You must do as I say or else you don't have salvation."  Ultimately, the claim being made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings.  This is why I say "clanging gongs."  In other words, the rules supercede the gospel which is what is happening in this case.  Why can't you just say congratulations to him and move on???  You are so full of hate for your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even reach the pulpit.  I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.

          Sola Fide,

          Charles
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "gmw" <ragingcalvinist@...>
          To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:43:44 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Charles Barden
          <cbarden@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

          So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
          your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
          ministry?

          > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian". >
          Legalism and clanging gongs.

          You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
          accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
          ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

          gmw.

          > In Christ,
          > Charles
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@...>
          > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
          > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Nathan,
          >
          > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
          process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
          >
          > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
          there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
          >
          > -Ben
          >
          >
          >
          > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@... >
          wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Edgar:
          >
          > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
          use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
          speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
          ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
          >
          >
          > Glenn
          >
          > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
          Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          > From: puritanpresbyterian@...
          > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
          >
          > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
          > go to such
          > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
          > profit";
          > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
          > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
          > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
          > shall
          > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
          > All
          > > such boasting is evil.
          > >
          >
          > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
          > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
          accept
          > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
          > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
          > ordination
          > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
          expectation to
          > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
          > > scriptural principle.
          >
          > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
          event?
          > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
          done,
          > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
          > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
          > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
          > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
          > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
          > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
          > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
          > Word.
          >
          > Just a thought, no more.
          >
          > Edgar
          >
          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
          > > > Nathan:
          > > >
          > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
          years.
          > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
          > some
          > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
          > > >
          > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
          > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
          > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
          > > >
          > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
          > if
          > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
          > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
          > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
          > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
          accept
          > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
          > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
          > ordination
          > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
          expectation to
          > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
          > > scriptural principle.
          > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
          > go to such
          > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
          > profit";
          > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
          > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
          > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
          > shall
          > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
          > All
          > > such boasting is evil.
          > >
          >


          No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com
          Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1828 - Release Date: 12/4/2008 8:05 AM


        • Glenn Ferrell
          Charles: As the canon of scripture is closed, God no longer gives infallible utterances to individuals or groups. Individuals may have a sense of God s
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 5, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Charles:
             
            As the canon of scripture is closed, God no longer gives infallible utterances to individuals or groups.  Individuals may have a sense of God's calling; congregations may find a man meets the qualifications they need in a minister, and a presbytery may find him qualified and the call of the congregation in order.  All three are required to call a man as pastor. 
             
            Presbyterians believe the church only has authority to teach, preach, worship and govern as God has shown in his word.  No individual has autonomous authority.  Elders (teaching and ruling) function together with mutual accountability and shared authority in local congregations, with ascending courts providing oversight and a venue for appeals.  There are no Apostles today, and no lone rangers in Christ's church.
             
            Reformed Baptists are missing something of Christ's intention for his church.  There should be a plurality of elders in the local congregation and mutual accountability between congregations and elders assembled in presbyteries and synods.
             
            As this is a "Covenanted Reformation" list, we don't need to be shy about saying so.
             
            When was your father at at Louisville Presbyterian seminary?  I spent a year there and found it one of the more liberal mainline institutions.  I was persuaded to leave seminary for eight years.
             
            Glenn
             


            J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org






            To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
            From: cbarden@...
            Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:31:45 -0500
            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound


            Rebuke taken...

            I was just concerned... and not having a good week.  I take it all back and I apologize.
            However, I do feel that this issue is splitting hairs and is semantical. 
            Another, or better definition of legalism would be for one to place rules over the love that Jesus has for us.  Correct me if I am wrong, and maybe I am misunderstanding,  that you are saying that the presbytery must call someone in order to be ordained?  My father was a Lutheran minster but attended the Presbyterian Seminary in Louisville.  I myself am Reformed Baptist which may explain my position.  One can plainly read in Acts 13:1-3 that the HS is the only one that can call and He does call before the laying on of hands, not the opposite.  Again, correct me if I am wrong.  And forgive me for my zealous posts. 

            In Christ,

            Charles
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@ verizon.net>
            To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
            Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 9:24:42 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_ York
            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

            So, according to your definition of legalism, where has anyone in this discussion asserted that there is no salvation outside of accepting the proper terminology and procedure of ministerial ordination and calling?

            It's one thing to say that you think folks may be going overboard, but to accuse them of professing a false legalistic gospel, being children of scorpions, and being full of hate, is ridiculous and unbecoming of someone who has intentions of becoming a minister.  Temper your zeal.

            By the way, this man you accuse us of hating has eaten, slept, and enjoyed a cheap cigar with me in my home, and is a wonderful fellow which I consider to be a friend.  You are the one stirring things up in this pot, sir.

            gmw.

            Charles Barden wrote:

            forgot your other question...

            Legalism is that which is defined in this statement... "You must do as I say or else you don't have salvation."  Ultimately, the claim being made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings.  This is why I say "clanging gongs."  In other words, the rules supercede the gospel which is what is happening in this case.  Why can't you just say congratulations to him and move on???  You are so full of hate for your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even reach the pulpit.  I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.

            Sola Fide,

            Charles
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "gmw" <ragingcalvinist@ verizon.net>
            To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
            Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:43:44 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_ York
            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound


            --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Charles Barden
            <cbarden@...> wrote:
            >
            > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

            So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
            your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
            ministry?

            > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian" . >
            Legalism and clanging gongs.

            You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
            accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
            ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

            gmw.

            > In Christ,
            > Charles
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@ ...>
            > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
            > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
            > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Nathan,
            >
            > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
            process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
            >
            > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
            there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
            >
            > -Ben
            >
            >
            >
            > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@ ... >
            wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Edgar:
            >
            > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
            use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
            speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
            ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
            >
            >
            > Glenn
            >
            > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
            Boise, Idaho http://sovereignred eemer.org
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
            > From: puritanpresbyterian @...
            > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
            >
            > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
            > go to such
            > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
            > profit";
            > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
            > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
            > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
            > shall
            > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
            > All
            > > such boasting is evil.
            > >
            >
            > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
            > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
            accept
            > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
            > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
            > ordination
            > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
            expectation to
            > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
            > > scriptural principle.
            >
            > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
            event?
            > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
            done,
            > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
            > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
            > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
            > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
            > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
            > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
            > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
            > Word.
            >
            > Just a thought, no more.
            >
            > Edgar
            >
            > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
            > > > Nathan:
            > > >
            > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
            years.
            > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
            > some
            > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
            > > >
            > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
            > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
            > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
            > > >
            > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
            > if
            > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
            > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
            > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
            > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
            accept
            > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
            > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
            > ordination
            > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
            expectation to
            > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
            > > scriptural principle.
            > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
            > go to such
            > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
            > profit";
            > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
            > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
            > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
            > shall
            > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
            > All
            > > such boasting is evil.
            > >
            >



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          • Charles Barden
            Glenn: I see your point and I agree that there are no more apostles. I also believe that there is no apostolic succession in the heretical RC. However, I will
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 6, 2008
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              Glenn:

              I see your point and I agree that there are no more apostles.  I also believe that there is no apostolic succession in the heretical  RC.   However, I will maintain my Reformed Baptist position on ordination as Spurgeon expounded it.

              Anyway, my father was there from 82 to 85 or something like that.  I would have to ask him.  But I can tell you I was 9 when he stated that he recieved the call to go into the ministry.

              Charles
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Glenn Ferrell" <jglennferrell@...>
              To: "covenantedreformationclub" <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 12:32:09 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
              Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

              Charles:
               
              As the canon of scripture is closed, God no longer gives infallible utterances to individuals or groups.  Individuals may have a sense of God's calling; congregations may find a man meets the qualifications they need in a minister, and a presbytery may find him qualified and the call of the congregation in order.  All three are required to call a man as pastor. 
               
              Presbyterians believe the church only has authority to teach, preach, worship and govern as God has shown in his word.  No individual has autonomous authority.  Elders (teaching and ruling) function together with mutual accountability and shared authority in local congregations, with ascending courts providing oversight and a venue for appeals.  There are no Apostles today, and no lone rangers in Christ's church.
               
              Reformed Baptists are missing something of Christ's intention for his church.  There should be a plurality of elders in the local congregation and mutual accountability between congregations and elders assembled in presbyteries and synods.
               
              As this is a "Covenanted Reformation" list, we don't need to be shy about saying so.
               
              When was your father at at Louisville Presbyterian seminary?  I spent a year there and found it one of the more liberal mainline institutions.  I was persuaded to leave seminary for eight years.
               
              Glenn
               


              J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org






              To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              From: cbarden@...
              Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:31:45 -0500
              Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound


              Rebuke taken...

              I was just concerned...and not having a good week.  I take it all back and I apologize.
              However, I do feel that this issue is splitting hairs and is semantical. 
              Another, or better definition of legalism would be for one to place rules over the love that Jesus has for us.  Correct me if I am wrong, and maybe I am misunderstanding,  that you are saying that the presbytery must call someone in order to be ordained?  My father was a Lutheran minster but attended the Presbyterian Seminary in Louisville.  I myself am Reformed Baptist which may explain my position.  One can plainly read in Acts 13:1-3 that the HS is the only one that can call and He does call before the laying on of hands, not the opposite.  Again, correct me if I am wrong.  And forgive me for my zealous posts. 

              In Christ,

              Charles
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@...>
              To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 9:24:42 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
              Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

              So, according to your definition of legalism, where has anyone in this discussion asserted that there is no salvation outside of accepting the proper terminology and procedure of ministerial ordination and calling?

              It's one thing to say that you think folks may be going overboard, but to accuse them of professing a false legalistic gospel, being children of scorpions, and being full of hate, is ridiculous and unbecoming of someone who has intentions of becoming a minister.  Temper your zeal.

              By the way, this man you accuse us of hating has eaten, slept, and enjoyed a cheap cigar with me in my home, and is a wonderful fellow which I consider to be a friend.  You are the one stirring things up in this pot, sir.

              gmw.

              Charles Barden wrote:

              forgot your other question...

              Legalism is that which is defined in this statement..."You must do as I say or else you don't have salvation."  Ultimately, the claim being made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings.  This is why I say "clanging gongs."  In other words, the rules supercede the gospel which is what is happening in this case.  Why can't you just say congratulations to him and move on???  You are so full of hate for your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even reach the pulpit.  I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.

              Sola Fide,

              Charles
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "gmw" <ragingcalvinist@...>
              To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:43:44 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
              Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound


              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Charles Barden
              <cbarden@...> wrote:
              >
              > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

              So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
              your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
              ministry?

              > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian". >
              Legalism and clanging gongs.

              You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
              accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
              ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

              gmw.

              > In Christ,
              > Charles
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@...>
              > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
              > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Nathan,
              >
              > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
              process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
              >
              > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
              there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
              >
              > -Ben
              >
              >
              >
              > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@... >
              wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Edgar:
              >
              > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
              use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
              speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
              ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
              >
              >
              > Glenn
              >
              > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
              Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              > From: puritanpresbyterian@...
              > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
              >
              > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
              > go to such
              > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
              > profit";
              > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
              > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
              > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
              > shall
              > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
              > All
              > > such boasting is evil.
              > >
              >
              > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
              > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
              accept
              > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
              > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
              > ordination
              > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
              expectation to
              > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
              > > scriptural principle.
              >
              > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
              event?
              > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
              done,
              > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
              > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
              > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
              > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
              > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
              > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
              > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
              > Word.
              >
              > Just a thought, no more.
              >
              > Edgar
              >
              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
              > > > Nathan:
              > > >
              > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
              years.
              > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
              > some
              > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
              > > >
              > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
              > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
              > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
              > > >
              > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
              > if
              > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
              > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
              > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
              > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
              accept
              > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
              > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
              > ordination
              > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
              expectation to
              > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
              > > scriptural principle.
              > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
              > go to such
              > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
              > profit";
              > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
              > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
              > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
              > shall
              > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
              > All
              > > such boasting is evil.
              > >
              >



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            • Leah & Adam Boone
              ok...i am done with this list because of Mr. Bump...he is a grumpy bitter man who seems to look for opportunities to confront...of course he will pawn it off
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 7, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                ok...i am done with this list because of Mr. Bump...he is a grumpy bitter man who seems to look for opportunities to confront...of course he will pawn it off as if he is guarding the truth...dude, we all have serious issues, it is called sin...lighten up
                adam boone

                On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:57 PM, Larry Bump <lbump@...> wrote:

                Charles Barden wrote:
                > forgot your other question...
                >
                > Legalism is that which is defined in this statement..."You must do as
                > I say or else you don't have salvation." Ultimately, the claim being
                > made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings. This is why I say
                > "clanging gongs." In other words, the rules supercede the gospel
                > which is what is happening in this case. Why can't you just say
                > congratulations to him and move on??? You are so full of hate for
                > your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even reach
                > the pulpit. I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.

                Dude, you have serious issues.
                I haven't seen any hate on this list except for your posts.


              • Larry Bump
                What Mr. Barden has written was evil and bitter. He has repented of it, and it is no longer between us. I seriously do not see how you make this to be my
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 7, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  What Mr. Barden has written was evil and bitter. He has repented of it,
                  and it is no longer between us. I seriously do not see how you make
                  this to be my fault.
                  No, I am not a bitter man, but sometimes I am too easily provoked by
                  others' sin. iIf I have somehow harmed you by this I beg your forgiveness.


                  Leah & Adam Boone wrote:
                  > ok...i am done with this list because of Mr. Bump...he is a grumpy
                  > bitter man who seems to look for opportunities to confront...of course
                  > he will pawn it off as if he is guarding the truth...dude, we all have
                  > serious issues, it is called sin...lighten up
                  > adam boone
                  >
                  > On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:57 PM, Larry Bump <lbump@...
                  > <mailto:lbump@...>> wrote:
                  >
                  > Charles Barden wrote:
                  > > forgot your other question...
                  > >
                  > > Legalism is that which is defined in this statement..."You must
                  > do as
                  > > I say or else you don't have salvation." Ultimately, the claim
                  > being
                  > > made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings. This is why I
                  > say
                  > > "clanging gongs." In other words, the rules supercede the gospel
                  > > which is what is happening in this case. Why can't you just say
                  > > congratulations to him and move on??? You are so full of hate for
                  > > your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even
                  > reach
                  > > the pulpit. I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.
                  >
                  > Dude, you have serious issues.
                  > I haven't seen any hate on this list except for your posts.
                  >
                  >
                  >
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