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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

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  • Charles Barden
    I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me. You are right when you say this is so nauseatingly presbyterian . Legalism and clanging
    Message 1 of 29 , Dec 3, 2008
      I am confused...I thought the call came from God and  not from me.  You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian".  Legalism and clanging gongs.

      In Christ,

      Charles
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@...>
      To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

      Nathan,
       
      I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation process goes in a way that is for God's glory. 
       
      For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian.  Surely there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this. 
       
      -Ben


       
      On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell <jglennferrell@...> wrote:

      Edgar:
       
      A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to use language presuming what is not yet real.  Though Nathan is probalby speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.


       
      Glenn

      J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org






      To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      From: puritanpresbyterian@...
      Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000

      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound



      > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
      go to such
      > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
      profit";
      > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
      > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
      > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
      shall
      > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
      All
      > such boasting is evil.
      >

      > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
      > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot accept
      > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
      > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
      ordination
      > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue expectation to
      > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
      > scriptural principle.

      But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an event?
      Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be done,
      and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
      that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
      pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
      pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
      especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
      vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
      according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
      Word.

      Just a thought, no more.

      Edgar

      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Larry Bump <lbump@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
      > > Nathan:
      > >
      > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five years.
      > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
      some
      > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
      > >
      > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
      > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
      > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
      > >
      > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
      if
      > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
      > licentiates are not to be given a call.
      > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
      > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot accept
      > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
      > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
      ordination
      > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue expectation to
      > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
      > scriptural principle.
      > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
      go to such
      > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
      profit";
      > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
      > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
      > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
      shall
      > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
      All
      > such boasting is evil.
      >



    • gmw
      ... So if I show up among a group of people and say, God called me to be your pastor, such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a ministry? ...
      Message 2 of 29 , Dec 4, 2008
        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Charles Barden
        <cbarden@...> wrote:
        >
        > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

        So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
        your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
        ministry?

        > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian". >
        Legalism and clanging gongs.

        You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
        accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
        ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

        gmw.


        > In Christ,
        > Charles
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@...>
        > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
        > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Nathan,
        >
        > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
        process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
        >
        > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
        there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
        >
        > -Ben
        >
        >
        >
        > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@... >
        wrote:
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Edgar:
        >
        > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
        use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
        speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
        ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
        >
        >
        > Glenn
        >
        > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
        Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
        > From: puritanpresbyterian@...
        > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
        >
        > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
        > go to such
        > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
        > profit";
        > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
        > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
        > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
        > shall
        > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
        > All
        > > such boasting is evil.
        > >
        >
        > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
        > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
        accept
        > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
        > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
        > ordination
        > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
        expectation to
        > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
        > > scriptural principle.
        >
        > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
        event?
        > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
        done,
        > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
        > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
        > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
        > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
        > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
        > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
        > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
        > Word.
        >
        > Just a thought, no more.
        >
        > Edgar
        >
        > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
        > > > Nathan:
        > > >
        > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
        years.
        > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
        > some
        > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
        > > >
        > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
        > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
        > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
        > > >
        > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
        > if
        > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
        > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
        > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
        > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
        accept
        > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
        > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
        > ordination
        > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
        expectation to
        > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
        > > scriptural principle.
        > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
        > go to such
        > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
        > profit";
        > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
        > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
        > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
        > shall
        > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
        > All
        > > such boasting is evil.
        > >
        >
      • Ben Hart
        Since a call for clarity has been made, let me volunteer some perspecuity of my own complaint. Here s how I viewed the exchange. Nate related some good news
        Message 3 of 29 , Dec 4, 2008
          Since a call for clarity has been made, let me volunteer some perspecuity of my own complaint. 
           
          Here's how I viewed the exchange.  Nate related some good news and has a good faith promise of a call, even to the point that he is selling his homes in GR, and is making travel plans though all of the formalities haven't been nailed down.  Someone then suggests publically that this is presumptuous and he should be careful for some nitty-gritty presbyterial-polity reasons.  (Blah, blah, blah.)  This is the "nauseatingly presbyterian" part--it just seems out of place and not in line with charity to publically get into such an unedifying dispute over details.  Why not let charity assume that the LA congregation and the Pacific presbytery has given Nate a good enough committment that what he's doing isn't presumptuous and let the Eschelman's go on in peace?  It seems sort of insulting to Nate to suggest that he'd be so presumptuous to get all of his things in order to move without a good enough indication of a commitment from the powers that be. 
          Or so it seems to me anyway.
           
          -Ben

           
          On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 7:43 AM, gmw <ragingcalvinist@...> wrote:

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Charles Barden


          <cbarden@...> wrote:
          >
          > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

          So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
          your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
          ministry?


          > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian". >
          Legalism and clanging gongs.

          You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
          accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
          ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

          gmw.

          > In Christ,
          > Charles
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@...>
          > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
          > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Nathan,
          >
          > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
          process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
          >
          > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
          there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
          >
          > -Ben
          >
          >
          >
          > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@... >

          wrote:
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Edgar:
          >
          > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
          use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
          speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
          ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
          >
          >
          > Glenn
          >
          > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
          Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          > From: puritanpresbyterian@...
          > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
          >
          > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
          > go to such
          > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
          > profit";
          > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
          > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
          > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
          > shall
          > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
          > All
          > > such boasting is evil.
          > >
          >
          > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
          > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
          accept
          > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
          > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
          > ordination
          > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
          expectation to
          > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
          > > scriptural principle.
          >
          > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
          event?
          > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
          done,
          > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
          > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
          > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
          > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
          > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
          > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
          > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
          > Word.
          >
          > Just a thought, no more.
          >
          > Edgar
          >
          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
          > > > Nathan:
          > > >
          > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
          years.
          > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
          > some
          > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
          > > >
          > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
          > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
          > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
          > > >
          > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
          > if
          > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
          > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
          > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
          > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
          accept
          > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
          > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
          > ordination
          > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
          expectation to
          > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
          > > scriptural principle.
          > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
          > go to such
          > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
          > profit";
          > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
          > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
          > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
          > shall
          > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
          > All
          > > such boasting is evil.
          > >
          >


        • Eshelman Family
          Glen and others, I was made able to receive a call by presbytery in August by the GLG Presbytery. September 1 the LA congregation called me to become their
          Message 4 of 29 , Dec 4, 2008
            Glen and others,

            I was made able to receive a call by presbytery in August by the GLG Presbytery. September 1 the LA congregation called me to become their pastor. That call was passed to the PC Presbytery's Ad Interim Commission who approved the call and passed it on to the GLG Ad Interim Commission. The GLG AIC approved it as a call and passed it on to me. I recieved the actual call in hands a couple of weeks ago and accepted the call to LA.

            Now, of course, I still have the ordination and installation exams, but even an ordained minister who was transfering to another Presbytery would have to pass these exams.

            I see no problem with saying that I accepted the call- because I did. Can you show me in our Standards where it is not acceptable to use this language?

            BTW, Glen, the church is in the Glendale area of LA. www.rpcla.org


            Thanks.

            Nate
          • Ic Neltococayotl
            I for one am very thrilled that Nate is being considered for the pastorate in LA. I truly believe that the Lord will use him and the congregation there to
            Message 5 of 29 , Dec 4, 2008
              I for one am very thrilled that Nate is being considered for the pastorate in LA.

              I truly believe that the Lord will use him and the congregation there to spread the Gospel, without compromise, in the SoCal region (that is Southern California for non-Californians or Aztlán if you prefer   :D).

              Now, knowing Nate, he is a true blue Presbyterian and knows the polity and would submit to it.  I think every Presbyterian that understands the polity and may even hold to jus divinus Presbyterianism, appreciate the need to vet or screen every candidate.  A simple call is not enough.  As Jerry stated any person can walk in to a pulpit and say I'm here cause God called me.
              If you have never been to a Presbytery exam of candidates, and if you are Presbyterian, I would strongly suggest that you go.  You may be pleasantly surprised at what you see. (And if you are not then you have no clue what you are complaining about).

              Not to speak for Nate or even know what he is thinking of this thread (if he even has read it), I will assume that the points raised by both Elders may have already been taken into consideration by him, he is coming from a conservative and solid Presbytery of the RPCNA.

              Edgar Ibarra
              (Nate's friend)
              member RPCNA
              attending Free Church of Scotland (Cont.)
              in Bethesda, MD


              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Charles Barden <cbarden@...> wrote:
              >
              > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me. You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian". Legalism and clanging gongs.
              >
              > In Christ,
              >
              > Charles
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: "Ben Hart" benjamin.hart1@...
              > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
              > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Nathan,
              >
              > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
              >
              > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
              >
              > -Ben
              >
              >
              >
              > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@... > wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Edgar:
              >
              > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
              >
              >
              > Glenn
              >
              > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              > From: puritanpresbyterian@...
              > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
              >
              > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
              > go to such
              > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
              > profit";
              > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
              > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
              > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
              > shall
              > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
              > All
              > > such boasting is evil.
              > >
              >
              > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
              > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot accept
              > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
              > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
              > ordination
              > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue expectation to
              > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
              > > scriptural principle.
              >
              > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an event?
              > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be done,
              > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
              > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
              > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
              > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
              > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
              > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
              > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
              > Word.
              >
              > Just a thought, no more.
              >
              > Edgar
              >
              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com , Larry Bump lbump@
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
              > > > Nathan:
              > > >
              > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five years.
              > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
              > some
              > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
              > > >
              > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
              > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
              > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
              > > >
              > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
              > if
              > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
              > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
              > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
              > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot accept
              > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
              > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
              > ordination
              > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue expectation to
              > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
              > > scriptural principle.
              > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
              > go to such
              > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
              > profit";
              > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
              > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
              > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
              > shall
              > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
              > All
              > > such boasting is evil.
              > >
              >
            • Glenn Ferrell
              Ben: I think if you review my posts regarding Nate s call, you will find I expressed my hopes for his best in processing the call, exam, move, future ministry
              Message 6 of 29 , Dec 4, 2008
                Ben:
                 
                I think if you review my posts regarding Nate's call, you will find I expressed my hopes for his best in processing the call, exam, move, future ministry and resettling of his family.  I also allowed his description of "accepting a call" was posted in the excitement of the moment.  I also related how I moved to Boise before a call had been formally processed by my presbytery.
                 
                As Presbyterians, we believe our form of church government is as much determined by the Regulative Principle as doctrine and worship.  To make note of the correct way of thinking, speaking of and practicing Presbyterian polity is not legalism, it is biblical church government.  I assume Nate, as a future Reformed Presbyterian minister, would want to get this correct.  It might even be on his presbyterian exams.  Certainly, if I heard a candidate speaking of Presbyterian polity in that manner, I'd want to ask a few questions in his floor exam.  I assume Nate is man enough to have his description of the call process corrected.  After all, he hopes to be an elder in Christ's church.
                 
                There was no intention to rain on Nate's parade.  I hope the best for his pending call, move, future ministry, and family.
                 
                Glenn

                J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org






                To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                From: benjamin.hart1@...
                Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 08:04:33 -0600
                Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound


                Since a call for clarity has been made, let me volunteer some perspecuity of my own complaint. 
                 
                Here's how I viewed the exchange.  Nate related some good news and has a good faith promise of a call, even to the point that he is selling his homes in GR, and is making travel plans though all of the formalities haven't been nailed down.  Someone then suggests publically that this is presumptuous and he should be careful for some nitty-gritty presbyterial- polity reasons.  (Blah, blah, blah.)  This is the "nauseatingly presbyterian" part--it just seems out of place and not in line with charity to publically get into such an unedifying dispute over details.  Why not let charity assume that the LA congregation and the Pacific presbytery has given Nate a good enough committment that what he's doing isn't presumptuous and let the Eschelman's go on in peace?  It seems sort of insulting to Nate to suggest that he'd be so presumptuous to get all of his things in order to move without a good enough indication of a commitment from the powers that be. 
                Or so it seems to me anyway.
                 
                -Ben

                 
                On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 7:43 AM, gmw <ragingcalvinist@ verizon.net> wrote:

                --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Charles Barden


                <cbarden@...> wrote:
                >
                > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

                So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
                your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
                ministry?


                > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian". >
                Legalism and clanging gongs.

                You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
                accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
                ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

                gmw.

                > In Christ,
                > Charles
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@ ...>
                > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
                > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Nathan,
                >
                > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
                process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
                >
                > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
                there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
                >
                > -Ben
                >
                >
                >
                > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@ ... >

                wrote:
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Edgar:
                >
                > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
                use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
                speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
                ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
                >
                >
                > Glenn
                >
                > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
                Boise, Idaho http://sovereignred eemer.org
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                > From: puritanpresbyterian @...
                > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
                >
                > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                > go to such
                > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                > profit";
                > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                > shall
                > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                > All
                > > such boasting is evil.
                > >
                >
                > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                accept
                > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                > ordination
                > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                expectation to
                > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                > > scriptural principle.
                >
                > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
                event?
                > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
                done,
                > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
                > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
                > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
                > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
                > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
                > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
                > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
                > Word.
                >
                > Just a thought, no more.
                >
                > Edgar
                >
                > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
                > > > Nathan:
                > > >
                > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
                years.
                > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
                > some
                > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
                > > >
                > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
                > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
                > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
                > > >
                > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
                > if
                > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
                > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
                > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                accept
                > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                > ordination
                > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                expectation to
                > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                > > scriptural principle.
                > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                > go to such
                > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                > profit";
                > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                > shall
                > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                > All
                > > such boasting is evil.
                > >
                >





              • Charles Barden
                ok fair enough... How else would you be able to say that you have been called. No one in their right mind would say publicly that they were called unless they
                Message 7 of 29 , Dec 4, 2008
                  ok fair enough...

                  How else would you be able to say that you have been called.  No one in their right mind would say publicly that they were called unless they were called.  Who are you to say what God has done or has not done?  If God is in control and is truly sovereign then why do you question His authority?  Did a man or group approve Moses' call?  Did a man or group approve the call of Christ?  How about for the 12 apostles?  No they were all elected!  You might be wise to read what Spurgeon said of ordination.  And since I am in Bible College right now, and we are in a financial crisis, and I am paying for school with loans, what would happen if I could not go to school any longer?  Would I depend on a council to approve my call?  If someone shows up and just out of the blue claims to be a minister with no credentials, what do you think is going to happen?  They will be ignored...so what's your point?  Besides, who made you the pope of the reformed church anyway?  I understand the need for rules and regulations but this presbytery is unscriptural. 

                  In Christ alone,

                  Charles Barden
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "gmw" <ragingcalvinist@...>
                  To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:43:44 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
                  Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Charles Barden
                  <cbarden@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

                  So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
                  your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
                  ministry?

                  > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian". >
                  Legalism and clanging gongs.

                  You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
                  accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
                  ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

                  gmw.

                  > In Christ,
                  > Charles
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@...>
                  > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
                  > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Nathan,
                  >
                  > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
                  process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
                  >
                  > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
                  there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
                  >
                  > -Ben
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@... >
                  wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Edgar:
                  >
                  > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
                  use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
                  speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
                  ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
                  >
                  >
                  > Glenn
                  >
                  > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
                  Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                  > From: puritanpresbyterian@...
                  > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
                  >
                  > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                  > go to such
                  > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                  > profit";
                  > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                  > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                  > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                  > shall
                  > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                  > All
                  > > such boasting is evil.
                  > >
                  >
                  > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                  > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                  accept
                  > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                  > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                  > ordination
                  > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                  expectation to
                  > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                  > > scriptural principle.
                  >
                  > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
                  event?
                  > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
                  done,
                  > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
                  > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
                  > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
                  > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
                  > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
                  > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
                  > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
                  > Word.
                  >
                  > Just a thought, no more.
                  >
                  > Edgar
                  >
                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
                  > > > Nathan:
                  > > >
                  > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
                  years.
                  > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
                  > some
                  > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
                  > > >
                  > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
                  > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
                  > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
                  > > >
                  > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
                  > if
                  > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
                  > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
                  > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                  > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                  accept
                  > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                  > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                  > ordination
                  > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                  expectation to
                  > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                  > > scriptural principle.
                  > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                  > go to such
                  > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                  > profit";
                  > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                  > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                  > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                  > shall
                  > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                  > All
                  > > such boasting is evil.
                  > >
                  >

                • Charles Barden
                  forgot your other question... Legalism is that which is defined in this statement... You must do as I say or else you don t have salvation. Ultimately, the
                  Message 8 of 29 , Dec 4, 2008
                    forgot your other question...

                    Legalism is that which is defined in this statement..."You must do as I say or else you don't have salvation."  Ultimately, the claim being made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings.  This is why I say "clanging gongs."  In other words, the rules supercede the gospel which is what is happening in this case.  Why can't you just say congratulations to him and move on???  You are so full of hate for your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even reach the pulpit.  I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.

                    Sola Fide,

                    Charles
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "gmw" <ragingcalvinist@...>
                    To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:43:44 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
                    Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Charles Barden
                    <cbarden@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

                    So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
                    your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
                    ministry?

                    > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian". >
                    Legalism and clanging gongs.

                    You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
                    accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
                    ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

                    gmw.

                    > In Christ,
                    > Charles
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@...>
                    > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
                    > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Nathan,
                    >
                    > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
                    process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
                    >
                    > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
                    there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
                    >
                    > -Ben
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@... >
                    wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Edgar:
                    >
                    > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
                    use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
                    speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
                    ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
                    >
                    >
                    > Glenn
                    >
                    > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
                    Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: puritanpresbyterian@...
                    > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
                    >
                    > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                    > go to such
                    > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                    > profit";
                    > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                    > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                    > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                    > shall
                    > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                    > All
                    > > such boasting is evil.
                    > >
                    >
                    > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                    > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                    accept
                    > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                    > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                    > ordination
                    > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                    expectation to
                    > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                    > > scriptural principle.
                    >
                    > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
                    event?
                    > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
                    done,
                    > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
                    > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
                    > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
                    > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
                    > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
                    > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
                    > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
                    > Word.
                    >
                    > Just a thought, no more.
                    >
                    > Edgar
                    >
                    > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
                    > > > Nathan:
                    > > >
                    > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
                    years.
                    > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
                    > some
                    > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
                    > > >
                    > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
                    > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
                    > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
                    > > >
                    > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
                    > if
                    > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
                    > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
                    > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                    > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                    accept
                    > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                    > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                    > ordination
                    > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                    expectation to
                    > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                    > > scriptural principle.
                    > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                    > go to such
                    > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                    > profit";
                    > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                    > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                    > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                    > shall
                    > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                    > All
                    > > such boasting is evil.
                    > >
                    >

                  • Larry Bump
                    ... Dude, you have serious issues. I haven t seen any hate on this list except for your posts.
                    Message 9 of 29 , Dec 4, 2008
                      Charles Barden wrote:
                      > forgot your other question...
                      >
                      > Legalism is that which is defined in this statement..."You must do as
                      > I say or else you don't have salvation." Ultimately, the claim being
                      > made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings. This is why I say
                      > "clanging gongs." In other words, the rules supercede the gospel
                      > which is what is happening in this case. Why can't you just say
                      > congratulations to him and move on??? You are so full of hate for
                      > your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even reach
                      > the pulpit. I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.


                      Dude, you have serious issues.
                      I haven't seen any hate on this list except for your posts.
                    • Charles Barden
                      Maybe hate was too strong a word. Nevertheless, why be caught up in all the rules and regulations. I have seen the same issues with other groups as well. It s
                      Message 10 of 29 , Dec 5, 2008
                        Maybe hate was too strong a word.  Nevertheless, why be caught up in all the rules and regulations.  I have seen the same issues with other groups as well.  It's just really upsetting to me and I am  zealous for the gospel that Jesus taught.

                        Charles
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Larry Bump" <lbump@...>
                        To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 12:57:15 AM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
                        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

                        Charles Barden wrote:
                        > forgot your other question...
                        >
                        > Legalism is that which is defined in this statement..."You must do as
                        > I say or else you don't have salvation." Ultimately, the claim being
                        > made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings. This is why I say
                        > "clanging gongs." In other words, the rules supercede the gospel
                        > which is what is happening in this case. Why can't you just say
                        > congratulations to him and move on??? You are so full of hate for
                        > your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even reach
                        > the pulpit. I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.

                        Dude, you have serious issues.
                        I haven't seen any hate on this list except for your posts.

                      • Jerry
                        There are plenty of people pretending to have a call from God that for various reasons clearly do not. Some show by their doctrine that they are not called by
                        Message 11 of 29 , Dec 5, 2008
                          There are plenty of people pretending to have a call from God that for various reasons clearly do not.

                          Some show by their doctrine that they are not called by God:

                          Joyce Meyers
                          Benny Hinn
                          Oral Roberts and his family
                          The Pope

                          Others have not been properly called externally by the church (else what is ordination or the laying on of hands found in Scripture?).  I have seen this first hand, and the results were disastrous.  Denying the external call of the church is to force God's people to be ruled by those who impose themselves on the church without consent of the people.  Furthermore, you are also suggesting that people must submit to you even if you don't have a proper education.

                          The extraordinary cases of Moses, Paul, etc., are not normative.  Ministers today are not to expect a burning bush, nor are they called to be Apostles.  The normative teaching of Scripture is that ministers are to be called by God, and ordained by the ministers of the church, and consented to by the people to which the minister is called to minister -- the particulars of which you've seen discussed here over the past few posts.

                          I'll skip Spurgeon and recommend to you Gillespie and Durham:

                          http://www.truecovenanter.com/gillespie/ggilles_miscqs_04.html

                          http://www.reformed.org/ecclesiology/durham_calling.html

                          gmw.


                          Charles Barden wrote:

                          ok fair enough...

                          How else would you be able to say that you have been called.  No one in their right mind would say publicly that they were called unless they were called.  Who are you to say what God has done or has not done?  If God is in control and is truly sovereign then why do you question His authority?  Did a man or group approve Moses' call?  Did a man or group approve the call of Christ?  How about for the 12 apostles?  No they were all elected!  You might be wise to read what Spurgeon said of ordination.  And since I am in Bible College right now, and we are in a financial crisis, and I am paying for school with loans, what would happen if I could not go to school any longer?  Would I depend on a council to approve my call?  If someone shows up and just out of the blue claims to be a minister with no credentials, what do you think is going to happen?  They will be ignored...so what's your point?  Besides, who made you the pope of the reformed church anyway?  I understand the need for rules and regulations but this presbytery is unscriptural. 

                          In Christ alone,

                          Charles Barden
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "gmw" <ragingcalvinist@ verizon.net>
                          To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                          Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:43:44 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_ York
                          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

                          --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Charles Barden
                          <cbarden@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

                          So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
                          your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
                          ministry?

                          > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian" . >
                          Legalism and clanging gongs.

                          You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
                          accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
                          ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

                          gmw.

                          > In Christ,
                          > Charles
                          > ----- Original Message -----
                          > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@ ...>
                          > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                          > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
                          > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Nathan,
                          >
                          > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
                          process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
                          >
                          > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
                          there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
                          >
                          > -Ben
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@ ... >
                          wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Edgar:
                          >
                          > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
                          use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
                          speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
                          ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
                          >
                          >
                          > Glenn
                          >
                          > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
                          Boise, Idaho http://sovereignred eemer.org
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                          > From: puritanpresbyterian @...
                          > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
                          >
                          > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                          > go to such
                          > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                          > profit";
                          > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                          > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                          > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                          > shall
                          > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                          > All
                          > > such boasting is evil.
                          > >
                          >
                          > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                          > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                          accept
                          > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                          > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                          > ordination
                          > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                          expectation to
                          > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                          > > scriptural principle.
                          >
                          > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
                          event?
                          > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
                          done,
                          > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
                          > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
                          > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
                          > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
                          > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
                          > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
                          > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
                          > Word.
                          >
                          > Just a thought, no more.
                          >
                          > Edgar
                          >
                          > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
                          > > > Nathan:
                          > > >
                          > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
                          years.
                          > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
                          > some
                          > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
                          > > >
                          > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
                          > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
                          > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
                          > > >
                          > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
                          > if
                          > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
                          > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
                          > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                          > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                          accept
                          > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                          > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                          > ordination
                          > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                          expectation to
                          > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                          > > scriptural principle.
                          > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                          > go to such
                          > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                          > profit";
                          > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                          > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                          > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                          > shall
                          > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                          > All
                          > > such boasting is evil.
                          > >
                          >


                          No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1828 - Release Date: 12/4/2008 8:05 AM

                        • Jerry
                          So, according to your definition of legalism, where has anyone in this discussion asserted that there is no salvation outside of accepting the proper
                          Message 12 of 29 , Dec 5, 2008
                            So, according to your definition of legalism, where has anyone in this discussion asserted that there is no salvation outside of accepting the proper terminology and procedure of ministerial ordination and calling?

                            It's one thing to say that you think folks may be going overboard, but to accuse them of professing a false legalistic gospel, being children of scorpions, and being full of hate, is ridiculous and unbecoming of someone who has intentions of becoming a minister.  Temper your zeal.

                            By the way, this man you accuse us of hating has eaten, slept, and enjoyed a cheap cigar with me in my home, and is a wonderful fellow which I consider to be a friend.  You are the one stirring things up in this pot, sir.

                            gmw.

                            Charles Barden wrote:

                            forgot your other question...

                            Legalism is that which is defined in this statement... "You must do as I say or else you don't have salvation."  Ultimately, the claim being made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings.  This is why I say "clanging gongs."  In other words, the rules supercede the gospel which is what is happening in this case.  Why can't you just say congratulations to him and move on???  You are so full of hate for your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even reach the pulpit.  I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.

                            Sola Fide,

                            Charles
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "gmw" <ragingcalvinist@ verizon.net>
                            To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                            Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:43:44 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_ York
                            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

                            --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Charles Barden
                            <cbarden@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

                            So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
                            your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
                            ministry?

                            > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian" . >
                            Legalism and clanging gongs.

                            You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
                            accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
                            ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

                            gmw.

                            > In Christ,
                            > Charles
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@ ...>
                            > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                            > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
                            > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Nathan,
                            >
                            > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
                            process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
                            >
                            > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
                            there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
                            >
                            > -Ben
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@ ... >
                            wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Edgar:
                            >
                            > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
                            use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
                            speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
                            ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
                            >
                            >
                            > Glenn
                            >
                            > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
                            Boise, Idaho http://sovereignred eemer.org
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                            > From: puritanpresbyterian @...
                            > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
                            >
                            > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                            > go to such
                            > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                            > profit";
                            > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                            > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                            > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                            > shall
                            > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                            > All
                            > > such boasting is evil.
                            > >
                            >
                            > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                            > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                            accept
                            > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                            > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                            > ordination
                            > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                            expectation to
                            > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                            > > scriptural principle.
                            >
                            > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
                            event?
                            > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
                            done,
                            > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
                            > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
                            > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
                            > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
                            > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
                            > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
                            > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
                            > Word.
                            >
                            > Just a thought, no more.
                            >
                            > Edgar
                            >
                            > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
                            > > > Nathan:
                            > > >
                            > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
                            years.
                            > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
                            > some
                            > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
                            > > >
                            > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
                            > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
                            > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
                            > > >
                            > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
                            > if
                            > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
                            > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
                            > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                            > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                            accept
                            > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                            > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                            > ordination
                            > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                            expectation to
                            > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                            > > scriptural principle.
                            > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                            > go to such
                            > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                            > profit";
                            > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                            > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                            > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                            > shall
                            > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                            > All
                            > > such boasting is evil.
                            > >
                            >


                            No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - http://www.avg.com Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1828 - Release Date: 12/4/2008 8:05 AM

                          • Glenn Ferrell
                            Nate: I find the language of the RPCNA Constitution a little ambiguous and slightly different from other Presbyterian denominations with which I m more
                            Message 13 of 29 , Dec 5, 2008
                              Nate:
                               
                              I find the language of the RPCNA Constitution a little ambiguous and slightly different from other Presbyterian denominations with which I'm more familiar.
                               
                              It does seem the Constitution uses language of the teaching elder elect "accepting" a call prior to completion of all ordination requirements.  I find this ambiguous as it presumes sustaining of any remaining exam.  In my experience, I would have termed this "indicating willingness to accept a call."  Indeed, there is a certain contingency remaining in your Constituion when it says: 
                               

                              Chapter 2.II.F.2.c, Page D-20 says: The date of ordination and/or installation is subject to the sustaining of his examination by presbytery.

                               

                              Language an OPC presbytery would have used would have included something like "approved contingent upon...."

                               

                              Again, there was no intention on my part to take from you the excitement of anticipating a call, ministry, and relocation.  I rejoice with you.  If I'm even in LA on a Lord's Day, I'll make an effort to worship with you.  I have great affection for the RPCNA, and probably more agreement with them that my own denomination.

                               

                              Glenn



                              J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org






                              To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                              From: nleshelman@...
                              Date: Thu, 4 Dec 2008 09:19:55 -0500
                              Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Los Angeles bound


                              Glen and others,

                              I was made able to receive a call by presbytery in August by the GLG Presbytery. September 1 the LA congregation called me to become their pastor. That call was passed to the PC Presbytery's Ad Interim Commission who approved the call and passed it on to the GLG Ad Interim Commission. The GLG AIC approved it as a call and passed it on to me. I recieved the actual call in hands a couple of weeks ago and accepted the call to LA.

                              Now, of course, I still have the ordination and installation exams, but even an ordained minister who was transfering to another Presbytery would have to pass these exams.

                              I see no problem with saying that I accepted the call- because I did. Can you show me in our Standards where it is not acceptable to use this language?

                              BTW, Glen, the church is in the Glendale area of LA. www.rpcla.org


                              Thanks.

                              Nate

                            • Charles Barden
                              Rebuke taken... I was just concerned...and not having a good week. I take it all back and I apologize. However, I do feel that this issue is splitting hairs
                              Message 14 of 29 , Dec 5, 2008
                                Rebuke taken...

                                I was just concerned...and not having a good week.  I take it all back and I apologize.
                                However, I do feel that this issue is splitting hairs and is semantical. 
                                Another, or better definition of legalism would be for one to place rules over the love that Jesus has for us.  Correct me if I am wrong, and maybe I am misunderstanding,  that you are saying that the presbytery must call someone in order to be ordained?  My father was a Lutheran minster but attended the Presbyterian Seminary in Louisville.  I myself am Reformed Baptist which may explain my position.  One can plainly read in Acts 13:1-3 that the HS is the only one that can call and He does call before the laying on of hands, not the opposite.  Again, correct me if I am wrong.  And forgive me for my zealous posts. 

                                In Christ,

                                Charles
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@...>
                                To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 9:24:42 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
                                Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

                                So, according to your definition of legalism, where has anyone in this discussion asserted that there is no salvation outside of accepting the proper terminology and procedure of ministerial ordination and calling?

                                It's one thing to say that you think folks may be going overboard, but to accuse them of professing a false legalistic gospel, being children of scorpions, and being full of hate, is ridiculous and unbecoming of someone who has intentions of becoming a minister.  Temper your zeal.

                                By the way, this man you accuse us of hating has eaten, slept, and enjoyed a cheap cigar with me in my home, and is a wonderful fellow which I consider to be a friend.  You are the one stirring things up in this pot, sir.

                                gmw.

                                Charles Barden wrote:

                                forgot your other question...

                                Legalism is that which is defined in this statement..."You must do as I say or else you don't have salvation."  Ultimately, the claim being made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings.  This is why I say "clanging gongs."  In other words, the rules supercede the gospel which is what is happening in this case.  Why can't you just say congratulations to him and move on???  You are so full of hate for your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even reach the pulpit.  I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.

                                Sola Fide,

                                Charles
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "gmw" <ragingcalvinist@...>
                                To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:43:44 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
                                Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

                                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Charles Barden
                                <cbarden@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

                                So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
                                your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
                                ministry?

                                > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian". >
                                Legalism and clanging gongs.

                                You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
                                accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
                                ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

                                gmw.

                                > In Christ,
                                > Charles
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@...>
                                > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
                                > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Nathan,
                                >
                                > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
                                process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
                                >
                                > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
                                there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
                                >
                                > -Ben
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@... >
                                wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Edgar:
                                >
                                > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
                                use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
                                speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
                                ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
                                >
                                >
                                > Glenn
                                >
                                > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
                                Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                > From: puritanpresbyterian@...
                                > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
                                >
                                > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                                > go to such
                                > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                                > profit";
                                > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                                > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                                > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                                > shall
                                > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                                > All
                                > > such boasting is evil.
                                > >
                                >
                                > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                                > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                                accept
                                > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                                > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                                > ordination
                                > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                                expectation to
                                > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                                > > scriptural principle.
                                >
                                > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
                                event?
                                > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
                                done,
                                > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
                                > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
                                > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
                                > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
                                > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
                                > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
                                > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
                                > Word.
                                >
                                > Just a thought, no more.
                                >
                                > Edgar
                                >
                                > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
                                > wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
                                > > > Nathan:
                                > > >
                                > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
                                years.
                                > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
                                > some
                                > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
                                > > >
                                > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
                                > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
                                > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
                                > > >
                                > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
                                > if
                                > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
                                > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
                                > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                                > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                                accept
                                > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                                > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                                > ordination
                                > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                                expectation to
                                > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                                > > scriptural principle.
                                > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                                > go to such
                                > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                                > profit";
                                > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                                > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                                > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                                > shall
                                > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                                > All
                                > > such boasting is evil.
                                > >
                                >


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                                Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1828 - Release Date: 12/4/2008 8:05 AM


                              • Glenn Ferrell
                                Charles: As the canon of scripture is closed, God no longer gives infallible utterances to individuals or groups. Individuals may have a sense of God s
                                Message 15 of 29 , Dec 5, 2008
                                  Charles:
                                   
                                  As the canon of scripture is closed, God no longer gives infallible utterances to individuals or groups.  Individuals may have a sense of God's calling; congregations may find a man meets the qualifications they need in a minister, and a presbytery may find him qualified and the call of the congregation in order.  All three are required to call a man as pastor. 
                                   
                                  Presbyterians believe the church only has authority to teach, preach, worship and govern as God has shown in his word.  No individual has autonomous authority.  Elders (teaching and ruling) function together with mutual accountability and shared authority in local congregations, with ascending courts providing oversight and a venue for appeals.  There are no Apostles today, and no lone rangers in Christ's church.
                                   
                                  Reformed Baptists are missing something of Christ's intention for his church.  There should be a plurality of elders in the local congregation and mutual accountability between congregations and elders assembled in presbyteries and synods.
                                   
                                  As this is a "Covenanted Reformation" list, we don't need to be shy about saying so.
                                   
                                  When was your father at at Louisville Presbyterian seminary?  I spent a year there and found it one of the more liberal mainline institutions.  I was persuaded to leave seminary for eight years.
                                   
                                  Glenn
                                   


                                  J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org






                                  To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: cbarden@...
                                  Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:31:45 -0500
                                  Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound


                                  Rebuke taken...

                                  I was just concerned... and not having a good week.  I take it all back and I apologize.
                                  However, I do feel that this issue is splitting hairs and is semantical. 
                                  Another, or better definition of legalism would be for one to place rules over the love that Jesus has for us.  Correct me if I am wrong, and maybe I am misunderstanding,  that you are saying that the presbytery must call someone in order to be ordained?  My father was a Lutheran minster but attended the Presbyterian Seminary in Louisville.  I myself am Reformed Baptist which may explain my position.  One can plainly read in Acts 13:1-3 that the HS is the only one that can call and He does call before the laying on of hands, not the opposite.  Again, correct me if I am wrong.  And forgive me for my zealous posts. 

                                  In Christ,

                                  Charles
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@ verizon.net>
                                  To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                                  Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 9:24:42 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_ York
                                  Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

                                  So, according to your definition of legalism, where has anyone in this discussion asserted that there is no salvation outside of accepting the proper terminology and procedure of ministerial ordination and calling?

                                  It's one thing to say that you think folks may be going overboard, but to accuse them of professing a false legalistic gospel, being children of scorpions, and being full of hate, is ridiculous and unbecoming of someone who has intentions of becoming a minister.  Temper your zeal.

                                  By the way, this man you accuse us of hating has eaten, slept, and enjoyed a cheap cigar with me in my home, and is a wonderful fellow which I consider to be a friend.  You are the one stirring things up in this pot, sir.

                                  gmw.

                                  Charles Barden wrote:

                                  forgot your other question...

                                  Legalism is that which is defined in this statement... "You must do as I say or else you don't have salvation."  Ultimately, the claim being made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings.  This is why I say "clanging gongs."  In other words, the rules supercede the gospel which is what is happening in this case.  Why can't you just say congratulations to him and move on???  You are so full of hate for your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even reach the pulpit.  I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.

                                  Sola Fide,

                                  Charles
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "gmw" <ragingcalvinist@ verizon.net>
                                  To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:43:44 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_ York
                                  Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound


                                  --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Charles Barden
                                  <cbarden@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

                                  So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
                                  your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
                                  ministry?

                                  > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian" . >
                                  Legalism and clanging gongs.

                                  You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
                                  accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
                                  ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

                                  gmw.

                                  > In Christ,
                                  > Charles
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@ ...>
                                  > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                                  > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
                                  > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Nathan,
                                  >
                                  > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
                                  process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
                                  >
                                  > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
                                  there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
                                  >
                                  > -Ben
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@ ... >
                                  wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Edgar:
                                  >
                                  > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
                                  use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
                                  speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
                                  ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Glenn
                                  >
                                  > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
                                  Boise, Idaho http://sovereignred eemer.org
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                                  > From: puritanpresbyterian @...
                                  > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
                                  >
                                  > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                                  > go to such
                                  > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                                  > profit";
                                  > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                                  > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                                  > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                                  > shall
                                  > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                                  > All
                                  > > such boasting is evil.
                                  > >
                                  >
                                  > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                                  > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                                  accept
                                  > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                                  > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                                  > ordination
                                  > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                                  expectation to
                                  > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                                  > > scriptural principle.
                                  >
                                  > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
                                  event?
                                  > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
                                  done,
                                  > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
                                  > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
                                  > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
                                  > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
                                  > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
                                  > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
                                  > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
                                  > Word.
                                  >
                                  > Just a thought, no more.
                                  >
                                  > Edgar
                                  >
                                  > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
                                  > > > Nathan:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
                                  years.
                                  > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
                                  > some
                                  > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
                                  > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
                                  > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
                                  > > >
                                  > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
                                  > if
                                  > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
                                  > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
                                  > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                                  > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                                  accept
                                  > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                                  > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                                  > ordination
                                  > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                                  expectation to
                                  > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                                  > > scriptural principle.
                                  > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                                  > go to such
                                  > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                                  > profit";
                                  > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                                  > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                                  > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                                  > shall
                                  > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                                  > All
                                  > > such boasting is evil.
                                  > >
                                  >



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                                  Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1828 - Release Date: 12/4/2008 8:05 AM




                                • Charles Barden
                                  Glenn: I see your point and I agree that there are no more apostles. I also believe that there is no apostolic succession in the heretical RC. However, I will
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Dec 6, 2008
                                    Glenn:

                                    I see your point and I agree that there are no more apostles.  I also believe that there is no apostolic succession in the heretical  RC.   However, I will maintain my Reformed Baptist position on ordination as Spurgeon expounded it.

                                    Anyway, my father was there from 82 to 85 or something like that.  I would have to ask him.  But I can tell you I was 9 when he stated that he recieved the call to go into the ministry.

                                    Charles
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Glenn Ferrell" <jglennferrell@...>
                                    To: "covenantedreformationclub" <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Saturday, December 6, 2008 12:32:09 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
                                    Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

                                    Charles:
                                     
                                    As the canon of scripture is closed, God no longer gives infallible utterances to individuals or groups.  Individuals may have a sense of God's calling; congregations may find a man meets the qualifications they need in a minister, and a presbytery may find him qualified and the call of the congregation in order.  All three are required to call a man as pastor. 
                                     
                                    Presbyterians believe the church only has authority to teach, preach, worship and govern as God has shown in his word.  No individual has autonomous authority.  Elders (teaching and ruling) function together with mutual accountability and shared authority in local congregations, with ascending courts providing oversight and a venue for appeals.  There are no Apostles today, and no lone rangers in Christ's church.
                                     
                                    Reformed Baptists are missing something of Christ's intention for his church.  There should be a plurality of elders in the local congregation and mutual accountability between congregations and elders assembled in presbyteries and synods.
                                     
                                    As this is a "Covenanted Reformation" list, we don't need to be shy about saying so.
                                     
                                    When was your father at at Louisville Presbyterian seminary?  I spent a year there and found it one of the more liberal mainline institutions.  I was persuaded to leave seminary for eight years.
                                     
                                    Glenn
                                     


                                    J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org






                                    To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                    From: cbarden@...
                                    Date: Fri, 5 Dec 2008 21:31:45 -0500
                                    Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound


                                    Rebuke taken...

                                    I was just concerned...and not having a good week.  I take it all back and I apologize.
                                    However, I do feel that this issue is splitting hairs and is semantical. 
                                    Another, or better definition of legalism would be for one to place rules over the love that Jesus has for us.  Correct me if I am wrong, and maybe I am misunderstanding,  that you are saying that the presbytery must call someone in order to be ordained?  My father was a Lutheran minster but attended the Presbyterian Seminary in Louisville.  I myself am Reformed Baptist which may explain my position.  One can plainly read in Acts 13:1-3 that the HS is the only one that can call and He does call before the laying on of hands, not the opposite.  Again, correct me if I am wrong.  And forgive me for my zealous posts. 

                                    In Christ,

                                    Charles
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@...>
                                    To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Friday, December 5, 2008 9:24:42 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
                                    Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound

                                    So, according to your definition of legalism, where has anyone in this discussion asserted that there is no salvation outside of accepting the proper terminology and procedure of ministerial ordination and calling?

                                    It's one thing to say that you think folks may be going overboard, but to accuse them of professing a false legalistic gospel, being children of scorpions, and being full of hate, is ridiculous and unbecoming of someone who has intentions of becoming a minister.  Temper your zeal.

                                    By the way, this man you accuse us of hating has eaten, slept, and enjoyed a cheap cigar with me in my home, and is a wonderful fellow which I consider to be a friend.  You are the one stirring things up in this pot, sir.

                                    gmw.

                                    Charles Barden wrote:

                                    forgot your other question...

                                    Legalism is that which is defined in this statement..."You must do as I say or else you don't have salvation."  Ultimately, the claim being made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings.  This is why I say "clanging gongs."  In other words, the rules supercede the gospel which is what is happening in this case.  Why can't you just say congratulations to him and move on???  You are so full of hate for your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even reach the pulpit.  I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.

                                    Sola Fide,

                                    Charles
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "gmw" <ragingcalvinist@...>
                                    To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Thursday, December 4, 2008 8:43:44 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
                                    Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound


                                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Charles Barden
                                    <cbarden@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > I am confused...I thought the call came from God and not from me.

                                    So if I show up among a group of people and say, "God called me to be
                                    your pastor," such a call is sufficient for you to submit to such a
                                    ministry?

                                    > You are right when you say "this is so nauseatingly presbyterian". >
                                    Legalism and clanging gongs.

                                    You should now define legalism. You should also now show why
                                    accurately articulating the Scriptural model of the calling to the
                                    ministry is what you call legalism and the clanging of gongs.

                                    gmw.

                                    > In Christ,
                                    > Charles
                                    > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > From: "Ben Hart" <benjamin.hart1@...>
                                    > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Sent: Wednesday, December 3, 2008 5:22:56 PM (GMT-0500) Auto-Detected
                                    > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Nathan,
                                    >
                                    > I wish you and your family the best, and that the installation
                                    process goes in a way that is for God's glory.
                                    >
                                    > For everyone else, this is all so nauseatingly presbyterian. Surely
                                    there are more profitable things to expend our energy on than this.
                                    >
                                    > -Ben
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > On Wed, Dec 3, 2008 at 12:28 PM, Glenn Ferrell < jglennferrell@... >
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Edgar:
                                    >
                                    > A minister, elder or candidate for a call should be careful not to
                                    use language presuming what is not yet real. Though Nathan is probalby
                                    speaking out of the excitement and anticipation of a move and future
                                    ministry, he can not under current RPCNA polity have accepted a call.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Glenn
                                    >
                                    > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
                                    Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                    > From: puritanpresbyterian@...
                                    > Date: Wed, 3 Dec 2008 17:58:14 +0000
                                    >
                                    > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Los Angeles bound
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                                    > go to such
                                    > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                                    > profit";
                                    > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                                    > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                                    > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                                    > shall
                                    > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                                    > All
                                    > > such boasting is evil.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                                    > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                                    accept
                                    > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                                    > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                                    > ordination
                                    > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                                    expectation to
                                    > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                                    > > scriptural principle.
                                    >
                                    > But Larry, can he and we in general not plan for such and such an
                                    event?
                                    > Of course as the Lord wills, but can things not be scheduled to be
                                    done,
                                    > and in this specific case, things accomplished without the expectation
                                    > that the outcome can only be one result? If elders are feeling
                                    > pressured to vote one way, then shame on them if they cave in to that
                                    > pressure, but I do not think that is the fault of the whole per se
                                    > especially of the candidate. In the end there is always a pressure to
                                    > vote the party line or what the majority holds instead of voting
                                    > according to what one's conscience believes to be according to God's
                                    > Word.
                                    >
                                    > Just a thought, no more.
                                    >
                                    > Edgar
                                    >
                                    > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com , Larry Bump <lbump@>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
                                    > > > Nathan:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Where is the RP Church in LA. I lived in the LA area for five
                                    years.
                                    > > > It is not an easy place for an Easterner to live; but there were
                                    > some
                                    > > > things I liked about it, especially the weather in January.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I might caution you on your non-Presbyterian language used in
                                    > > > describing your call. Can one under RPCNA polity "accept a call"
                                    > > > before it and you have been approved by presbytery?
                                    > > >
                                    > > Technically he has not been certified eligible to receive a call, and
                                    > if
                                    > > he was actually forwarded a call by Presbytery someone messed up;
                                    > > licentiates are not to be given a call.
                                    > > He may have been informed of an intended call, and given an intent to
                                    > > accept it; but he really should not have been called and cannot
                                    accept
                                    > > it; especially since he has not passed his final examinations. I have
                                    > > never been comfortable with the practice of scheduling exams,
                                    > ordination
                                    > > and installation all at the same time. It puts an undue
                                    expectation to
                                    > > vote "sustained" upon the elders at the meeting, and violates a
                                    > > scriptural principle.
                                    > > James 4:13 Come now, you who say, "Today or tomorrow £we will
                                    > go to such
                                    > > and such a city, spend a year there, buy and sell, and make a
                                    > profit";
                                    > > 14whereas you do not know what will happen tomorrow. For what is your
                                    > > life? It is even a vapor that appears for a little time and then
                                    > > vanishes away. 15Instead you ought to say, "If the Lord wills, we
                                    > shall
                                    > > live and do this or that." 16But now you boast in your arrogance.
                                    > All
                                    > > such boasting is evil.
                                    > >
                                    >



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                                    Version: 8.0.175 / Virus Database: 270.9.13/1828 - Release Date: 12/4/2008 8:05 AM




                                  • Leah & Adam Boone
                                    ok...i am done with this list because of Mr. Bump...he is a grumpy bitter man who seems to look for opportunities to confront...of course he will pawn it off
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Dec 7, 2008
                                      ok...i am done with this list because of Mr. Bump...he is a grumpy bitter man who seems to look for opportunities to confront...of course he will pawn it off as if he is guarding the truth...dude, we all have serious issues, it is called sin...lighten up
                                      adam boone

                                      On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:57 PM, Larry Bump <lbump@...> wrote:

                                      Charles Barden wrote:
                                      > forgot your other question...
                                      >
                                      > Legalism is that which is defined in this statement..."You must do as
                                      > I say or else you don't have salvation." Ultimately, the claim being
                                      > made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings. This is why I say
                                      > "clanging gongs." In other words, the rules supercede the gospel
                                      > which is what is happening in this case. Why can't you just say
                                      > congratulations to him and move on??? You are so full of hate for
                                      > your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even reach
                                      > the pulpit. I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.

                                      Dude, you have serious issues.
                                      I haven't seen any hate on this list except for your posts.


                                    • Larry Bump
                                      What Mr. Barden has written was evil and bitter. He has repented of it, and it is no longer between us. I seriously do not see how you make this to be my
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Dec 7, 2008
                                        What Mr. Barden has written was evil and bitter. He has repented of it,
                                        and it is no longer between us. I seriously do not see how you make
                                        this to be my fault.
                                        No, I am not a bitter man, but sometimes I am too easily provoked by
                                        others' sin. iIf I have somehow harmed you by this I beg your forgiveness.


                                        Leah & Adam Boone wrote:
                                        > ok...i am done with this list because of Mr. Bump...he is a grumpy
                                        > bitter man who seems to look for opportunities to confront...of course
                                        > he will pawn it off as if he is guarding the truth...dude, we all have
                                        > serious issues, it is called sin...lighten up
                                        > adam boone
                                        >
                                        > On Thu, Dec 4, 2008 at 10:57 PM, Larry Bump <lbump@...
                                        > <mailto:lbump@...>> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Charles Barden wrote:
                                        > > forgot your other question...
                                        > >
                                        > > Legalism is that which is defined in this statement..."You must
                                        > do as
                                        > > I say or else you don't have salvation." Ultimately, the claim
                                        > being
                                        > > made is not of love but of strict "legal" rulings. This is why I
                                        > say
                                        > > "clanging gongs." In other words, the rules supercede the gospel
                                        > > which is what is happening in this case. Why can't you just say
                                        > > congratulations to him and move on??? You are so full of hate for
                                        > > your brother that you would lob of his head before he can even
                                        > reach
                                        > > the pulpit. I am disgusted at these children of scorpions.
                                        >
                                        > Dude, you have serious issues.
                                        > I haven't seen any hate on this list except for your posts.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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