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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Mark of the Number of the Name of the Beast video

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  • Charles Barden
    I sense the spirit of boasting in this forum today. As an outsider looking in, you are both right in some points. However, Keith it seems is being egotistical
    Message 1 of 21 , Sep 26 9:17 AM
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      I sense the spirit of boasting in this forum today.  As an outsider looking in, you are both right in some points.  However, Keith it seems is being egotistical which is not helping his cause.  I think he has some good points but we have to remember that no one is perfect and no one has the absolute truth; it is a journey.  Calling someone a papist or a jesuit...them is fightin' words.

      In Messiah,

      Charles
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Jerry" <ragingcalvinist@...>
      To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, September 26, 2008 7:40:37 AM (GMT-0500) America/New_York
      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Mark of the Number of the Name of the Beast video

      Keith Dotzler wrote:

      I didn't call you a Papist, so who is misrepresenting whom?




      Well, you did use the rhetoric of asking him if he's a Jesuit
       (which is a papist).  I wouldn't say he's misrepresenting you.  If you think he's misUNDERSTANDING you, then you might correct us all by saying clearly what you were implying with the question of whether he was a Jesuit.

      gmw
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    • Larry Bump
      ... The problem with the whole argument is the presuppositions of one party. Some believe that Westminster has all the truth, and cannot be disputed in any
      Message 2 of 21 , Oct 2, 2008
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        Charles Barden wrote:
        > I sense the spirit of boasting in this forum today. As an outsider
        > looking in, you are both right in some points. However, Keith it seems
        > is being egotistical which is not helping his cause. I think he has
        > some good points but we have to remember that no one is perfect and no
        > one has the absolute truth; it is a journey. Calling someone a papist
        > or a jesuit...them is fightin' words.


        The problem with the whole argument is the presuppositions of one party.
        Some believe that Westminster has all the truth, and cannot be
        disputed in any way.
        My position is that that belief is a denial of the Reformation. All
        man's teaching must be questioned, and cannot be held above scrutiny.

        Larry
      • Glenn Ferrell
        Yes, Scripture is the standard. All others must be evaluated by their scriptural arguments. But, one must show the fallacy of Westminster or other s
        Message 3 of 21 , Oct 2, 2008
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          Yes, Scripture is the standard.  All others must be evaluated by their scriptural arguments.  But, one must show the fallacy of Westminster or other's arguments, and why they are not scriptural. 
           
          No one here has denied there were or are other "antichrists."  However, you have not provided an argument for the identity of the "son of perdition" and "man of sin." 
           
          I spent a year (1971-72) at Princeton Theological Seminary. One of my liberal professors had served as a navy chaplain in WWII with a Jesuit chaplain. Though liberal, this Presbyterian chaplain understood the Reformation argument for the identity of the Antichrist. He explained these to the Jesuit. The latter responded, "The logic is irrefutable; the thought is unthinkable!"
           
          I’d be interested in arguments for why the 2 Thess. 2 is not referring to the pope. Simply asserting scripture identifies other "antichrists" is not sufficient to refute what Westminster maintained.
           
          Glenn


          J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho    http://sovereignredeemer.org




          To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          From: lbump@...
          Date: Thu, 2 Oct 2008 12:31:08 -0400
          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Mark of the Number of the Name of the Beast video


          Charles Barden wrote:
          > I sense the spirit of boasting in this forum today. As an outsider
          > looking in, you are both right in some points. However, Keith it seems
          > is being egotistical which is not helping his cause. I think he has
          > some good points but we have to remember that no one is perfect and no
          > one has the absolute truth; it is a journey. Calling someone a papist
          > or a jesuit...them is fightin' words.

          The problem with the whole argument is the presuppositions of one party.
          Some believe that Westminster has all the truth, and cannot be
          disputed in any way.
          My position is that that belief is a denial of the Reformation. All
          man's teaching must be questioned, and cannot be held above scrutiny.

          Larry

        • Larry Bump
          ... No, it s not. But it does refute what *some* maintain, that antichrist may only properly refer to the Pope. Properly read with the grammar of the day,
          Message 4 of 21 , Oct 2, 2008
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            Glenn Ferrell wrote:

            > I’d be interested in arguments for why the 2 Thess. 2 is not referring
            > to the pope. Simply asserting scripture identifies other "antichrists"
            > is not sufficient to refute what Westminster maintained.

            No, it's not. But it does refute what *some* maintain, that
            "antichrist" may only properly refer to the Pope.

            Properly read with the grammar of the day, the Westminster clause does
            not identify the Pope as the only fulfillment of the prophecy, but only
            as a (or even "the) prime example of the type.

            Yes, the Pope is a prime example of Antichrist. But to say AntiChrist
            can only mean the Pope is wrong.

            I do believe that Scripture teaches that "the Man of Sin", the Beast,
            666 was Nero, and that most of the prophecy in the Apocalypse of John
            was fulfilled during 70 AD and the Jewish Wars. I do not believe that
            makes me a papist or a heretic; and I do not agree that some sort of
            burden of proof falls upon me to refute Westminster on that. What
            exalts those men's opinions to that level of authority?
            (Think carefully before answering)

            What is the Scriptural proof for that authority?

            I think it funny that people that deny 144 hour creation are often
            allowed as orthodox by people who condemn partial preterists as heretics.
          • Leah & Adam Boone
            i think because many people see partial preterism as the gateway to full preterism, which has a whole host of significant theological implications beyond who
            Message 5 of 21 , Oct 2, 2008
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              i think because many people see partial preterism as the gateway to full preterism, which has a whole host of significant theological implications beyond who is the antichrist
              adam

              On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 10:47 AM, Larry Bump <lbump@...> wrote:
              Glenn Ferrell wrote:

              >
              I think it funny that people that deny 144 hour creation are often
              allowed as orthodox by people who condemn partial preterists as heretics.

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            • Ic Neltococayotl
              Hi Larry my friend!! In as much that I agree with you that Scripture trumps all, but I am not sure if 2 Thess. 2 refute[s] what *some* maintain, that
              Message 6 of 21 , Oct 2, 2008
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                Hi Larry my friend!!

                In as much that I agree with you that Scripture trumps all, but I am not sure if 2 Thess. 2  "refute[s] what *some* maintain, that "antichrist" may only properly refer to the Pope".

                Thomas Boston has preached on this topic and calls Popery and the Pope that very Antichrist upon examination of this very text:

                http://www.covenanter.org/TBoston/prayer_against_antichrist.html

                http://www.covenanter.org/TManton/2Thessalonians2/eighteensermons.html

                Scripture interepting Scripture leads us to the conclusion that the Papacy is that specific AntiChrist (...sits in the Temple of God...built on 7 hills...all refer to the Pope / Papacy)

                Sure enough that there are many other antichrists...i.e JW's, Mormons, Scientologists, &etc, but the one that is that very Son of Perdition is the Pope.  Judas Ischariot was his fore-runner...

                ...I by the way hold to 24 / 7 day creation...other schemes are at best errors at worst heresy...

                Your brother in Christ,

                Edgar Ibarra


                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Larry Bump <lbump@...> wrote:
                >
                > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
                >
                > > I'd be interested in arguments for why the 2 Thess. 2 is not referring
                > > to the pope. Simply asserting scripture identifies other "antichrists"
                > > is not sufficient to refute what Westminster maintained.
                >
                > No, it's not. But it does refute what *some* maintain, that
                > "antichrist" may only properly refer to the Pope.
                >
                > Properly read with the grammar of the day, the Westminster clause does
                > not identify the Pope as the only fulfillment of the prophecy, but only
                > as a (or even "the) prime example of the type.
                >
                > Yes, the Pope is a prime example of Antichrist. But to say AntiChrist
                > can only mean the Pope is wrong.
                >
                > I do believe that Scripture teaches that "the Man of Sin", the Beast,
                > 666 was Nero, and that most of the prophecy in the Apocalypse of John
                > was fulfilled during 70 AD and the Jewish Wars. I do not believe that
                > makes me a papist or a heretic; and I do not agree that some sort of
                > burden of proof falls upon me to refute Westminster on that. What
                > exalts those men's opinions to that level of authority?
                > (Think carefully before answering)
                >
                > What is the Scriptural proof for that authority?
                >
                > I think it funny that people that deny 144 hour creation are often
                > allowed as orthodox by people who condemn partial preterists as heretics.
                >

              • Larry Bump
                ... Which is no more fair than rejecting Calvinism because you are afraid of hyper, or rejecting a Free Offer because it s too close to Pelagianism. To date
                Message 7 of 21 , Oct 2, 2008
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                  Leah & Adam Boone wrote:
                  > i think because many people see partial preterism as the gateway to full
                  > preterism, which has a whole host of significant theological
                  > implications beyond who is the antichrist


                  Which is no more fair than rejecting Calvinism because you are afraid of
                  hyper, or rejecting a Free Offer because it's too close to Pelagianism.
                  To date the Apocalypse according to the internal evidence is not heresy,
                  but simple good exegesis.

                  Larry
                • Antonio
                  Partial-preterism should either lead one to a full blown preterism if continually applying all passages the same or be a stepping stone to becoming a
                  Message 8 of 21 , Oct 3, 2008
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                    Partial-preterism should either lead one to a full blown preterism if continually applying all passages the same or be a stepping stone to becoming a historicist. The WCF description of the AntiChrist includes the labels of "man of sin" and "son of perdition" which would have only meant the Pope of Rome in their minds. Since we have started speaking of II Thessalonians 2, which to me is the key text on the subject, let us set aside for the moment whether or not the "man of sin" and " son of perdition" are one and the same with the AntiChrist (though I believe in the Confession's thoughts they are).
                     
                    Let us go through some of the key facets of the II Thessalonians 2 text like those of the falling away, the thing that lets or withholds this man of sin, and also that of this man of sin sitting in the temple as God. I would be greatly appreciative to hear your thoughts on these matters Elder Bump or any other partial-preterest in this group so as to better understand where you are coming from on this. 
                     
                    I look forward to hearing from the list on this one for sure so that even as iron sharpens iron one brother may sharpen another.
                     
                    Your brother in Christ,
                     
                    Antonio

                    On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 8:51 PM, Ic Neltococayotl <puritanpresbyterian@...> wrote:

                    Hi Larry my friend!!

                    In as much that I agree with you that Scripture trumps all, but I am not sure if 2 Thess. 2  "refute[s] what *some* maintain, that "antichrist" may only properly refer to the Pope".

                    Thomas Boston has preached on this topic and calls Popery and the Pope that very Antichrist upon examination of this very text:

                    http://www.covenanter.org/TBoston/prayer_against_antichrist.html

                    http://www.covenanter.org/TManton/2Thessalonians2/eighteensermons.html

                    Scripture interepting Scripture leads us to the conclusion that the Papacy is that specific AntiChrist (...sits in the Temple of God...built on 7 hills...all refer to the Pope / Papacy)

                    Sure enough that there are many other antichrists...i.e JW's, Mormons, Scientologists, &etc, but the one that is that very Son of Perdition is the Pope.  Judas Ischariot was his fore-runner...

                    ...I by the way hold to 24 / 7 day creation...other schemes are at best errors at worst heresy...

                    Your brother in Christ,

                    Edgar Ibarra


                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Larry Bump <lbump@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
                    >
                    > > I'd be interested in arguments for why the 2 Thess. 2 is not referring
                    > > to the pope. Simply asserting scripture identifies other "antichrists"
                    > > is not sufficient to refute what Westminster maintained.
                    >
                    > No, it's not. But it does refute what *some* maintain, that
                    > "antichrist" may only properly refer to the Pope.
                    >
                    > Properly read with the grammar of the day, the Westminster clause does
                    > not identify the Pope as the only fulfillment of the prophecy, but only
                    > as a (or even "the) prime example of the type.
                    >
                    > Yes, the Pope is a prime example of Antichrist. But to say AntiChrist
                    > can only mean the Pope is wrong.
                    >
                    > I do believe that Scripture teaches that "the Man of Sin", the Beast,
                    > 666 was Nero, and that most of the prophecy in the Apocalypse of John
                    > was fulfilled during 70 AD and the Jewish Wars. I do not believe that
                    > makes me a papist or a heretic; and I do not agree that some sort of
                    > burden of proof falls upon me to refute Westminster on that. What
                    > exalts those men's opinions to that level of authority?
                    > (Think carefully before answering)
                    >
                    > What is the Scriptural proof for that authority?
                    >
                    > I think it funny that people that deny 144 hour creation are often
                    > allowed as orthodox by people who condemn partial preterists as heretics.
                    >


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