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Re: John Frame and Images

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  • bob_suden
    Hi Larry, ... Nice try/your effort is appreciated, but you really haven t replied to Bob s argument in substance, much more refuted it. Neither have you
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 10, 2008
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      Hi Larry,

      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
      <larryicr@...> wrote:
      >
      > I tried to reply to the last post by Bob but yahoo was having
      > problems, so i'm posting it as a new thread.

      Nice try/your effort is appreciated, but you really haven't replied to
      Bob's argument in substance, much more refuted it. Neither have you
      demonstrated that it is frivolous, irrelevant or immaterial.

      > The issue of the bronze serpent has nothing to do with whether or not
      > God commanded something to be done. Rather, it has to do with the fact
      > that it can't be considered idolatry because God commanded it. God
      > would not command Israel to commit idolatry.

      That is not the point of my argument. Rather the issue of the bronze
      serpent has to do with whether God commanded an image to be made to
      instruct the Israelites. And if God not only can, but has done so, so
      too man. Thus JFrame. But this is not only an arrogant confusion, it is
      theological idiocy.

      > The issue of images of Jesus for certain purposes outside of worship
      > has nothing to do with the RPW since it is outside of worship that
      > they are used.

      If images of Christ are lawful for pedagogical (teaching) purposes
      outside the worship of God, why not in worship? After all JFrame wants
      to say worship is teaching, whether prayer, song or sermon in his
      efforts to justify his introduction of "forms" into the
      element/circumstance distinction in the reformed exposition of the 2nd
      commandment.

      But if in worship, the RPW necessarily raises its hand and asks the
      awkward question where God has commanded images in his worship. We know
      God explicitly did so in the OT temple worship. But that is now
      fulfilled by Christ . . . .

      > This simply shows that Frame does fall within reasonable expectations
      > of Scripture interpretation. Some of the main reasons i think he's
      > wrong...

      Frame does not fall within reformed expectations of Scripture
      interpretation, which also encompasses a reasonable expectation that
      Scripture is not only one, but perspicuous/clear, sufficient and
      infallible.

      > The command in Ex 20 against idolatry has within it 2 distinct
      > prohibitions regarding idols - don't make them(have them), don't
      > worship them. Frame looks at the distinction of the 2nd prohibition as
      > being a clarification of the 1st part rather than distinct from it.

      Agreed.

      > The apostles were the only ones that could create an image of Jesus
      > since they saw what He looked like...and they didn't. This shows that
      > there was no break in OT/NT teachings regarding idolatry.

      Rather weak/lame. Again, for JF, why worry about apostolic example, when
      we have God's example in the temple or with the serpent?

      > If there was a shift from not making to making images it would have
      > been mentioned in the NT as the history of the Church prior to the NT
      > shows a non-negotiable prohibition on images of God.

      Agreed, but not according to JFrame. He again mistakes/insists the
      practice or action of God is an approved example that man can
      follow/imitate. That it is lawful to make images, even of Christ, for
      instruction.

      But the Scripture tells us that without faith it is impossible to
      please God and that most necessary faith cometh by hearing and hearing
      by the Word which is preached by those who are sent.

      Even further, contra JFrame, there is no mention at all in Rom 10 of
      pictures, plays or puppets.

      In other words, whether I agree with JFrame 100% or not is immaterial.
      Rather his doctrine and hermeneutic not only undercuts the sufficiency
      and clarity of Scripture, it also usurps the sufficiency and
      efficiency of the divinely appointed means of preaching to communicate
      and teach its truths.

      Of course, that's a funny position to take for someone who claims to be
      a preacher and teacher of God's word, but if he is trying to work
      himself out of a job, that's fine by me. I can only hope he long enjoys
      standing by the freeway onramp with the ubiquitous cardboard 'will work
      for food' sign.

      cordially in the Word become flesh,
      Bob S.
    • Chris Coldwell
      Seeing this thread I wanted to post an FYI that Frame s Doctrine of the Christian Life, more specifically his chapters on the second commandment, are reviewed
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 10, 2008
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        Seeing this thread I wanted to post an FYI that Frame's Doctrine of
        the Christian Life, more specifically his chapters on the second
        commandment, are reviewed by Frank J. Smith in the forthcoming 2008
        issue of the Confessional Presbyterian journal, DV (getting close to
        done now). Also, I hope to run a substantial article on images and LC
        109 in the 2009 issue (again DV); at least I have someone slated to do
        it and some research is done.
        The 2008 I think surpasses the 2007 in variety/number of articles, but
        also, very surprisingly to me, in length. The 2008 should (still some
        last minute work) hit the 312 page mark, passing the what I thought
        was huge 304 of the 2007. And that is without any work on the text of
        the Larger Catechism, which, as it turns out, would not have fit given
        the length of everything else any way.
        Sincerely,
        Chris Coldwell
        The Confessional Presbyterian journal
        www.cpjournal.com
      • bob_suden
        Chris, Will you be posting the table of contents? Are there any plans to start reprinting Rutherford now that you have reprinted most of Gillespie? Thank
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 11, 2008
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          Chris,
          Will you be posting the table of contents?
          Are there any plans to start reprinting Rutherford now that you have
          reprinted most of Gillespie?
          Thank you,
          Bob S.

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Coldwell"
          <naphtali@...> wrote:
          >
          > Seeing this thread I wanted to post an FYI that Frame's Doctrine of
          > the Christian Life, more specifically his chapters on the second
          > commandment, are reviewed by Frank J. Smith in the forthcoming 2008
          > issue of the Confessional Presbyterian journal, DV (getting close to
          > done now). Also, I hope to run a substantial article on images and LC
          > 109 in the 2009 issue (again DV); at least I have someone slated to do
          > it and some research is done.
          > The 2008 I think surpasses the 2007 in variety/number of articles, but
          > also, very surprisingly to me, in length. The 2008 should (still some
          > last minute work) hit the 312 page mark, passing the what I thought
          > was huge 304 of the 2007. And that is without any work on the text of
          > the Larger Catechism, which, as it turns out, would not have fit given
          > the length of everything else any way.
          > Sincerely,
          > Chris Coldwell
          > The Confessional Presbyterian journal
          > www.cpjournal.com
          >
        • Chris Coldwell
          Bob, Yes; I had hope to yesterday but juggling last minute things and also waiting on one last piece and the artwork to button the issue up; but that shouldn t
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 12, 2008
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            Bob,
            Yes; I had hope to yesterday but juggling last minute things and also
            waiting on one last piece and the artwork to button the issue up; but
            that shouldn't prevent posting the contents which I will try to do
            later today and start sending out renewals maybe tomorrow.
            As for Rutherford. I do think about it; it would be very hard work.
            The easiest would be Paul's Presbytery (smallest and nicest structure)
            but church government is a poor seller; several oversized volumes
            containing more than one work may be the way to go; but that makes for
            huge projects. And actually, I have thought about redoing a collected
            Gillespie but that still requires a huge amount of work, mostly
            because of the work needed to check/revise edit Aaron's Rod
            Blossoming; translate, and research the bibliography etc. Right now
            I'm reworking the fast sermons of the Scots commissioners to the
            Westminster Assembly into one volume; and contemplating issuing it in
            the 17th century presbyterians series versus Lulu. It deserves the
            full offset printing treatment but it depends on if I can get a sense
            of any market for it and get interest from resellers and pre pub
            commitments. After that I have a commitment to finish all of Durham's
            sermons for a one volume project, which would put everything by Durham
            into print (and then eventually I have the text and rights to reissue
            the Revelation commentary in a matching format to the other large
            Durham volumes, Lord willing). And I have the text of a large Puritan
            work which needs editing for publication. That and I will have to
            start on CPJ 5 planning in a few months has my hands tied for a while.
            Thanks for asking.
            Chris Coldwell
            Editor, The Confessional Presbyterian journal
            www.cpjournal.com

            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
            <bsuden@...> wrote:
            >
            > Chris,
            > Will you be posting the table of contents?
            > Are there any plans to start reprinting Rutherford now that you have
            > reprinted most of Gillespie?
            > Thank you,
            > Bob S.
            >
            > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Coldwell"
            > <naphtali@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Seeing this thread I wanted to post an FYI that Frame's Doctrine of
            > > the Christian Life, more specifically his chapters on the second
            > > commandment, are reviewed by Frank J. Smith in the forthcoming 2008
            > > issue of the Confessional Presbyterian journal, DV (getting close to
            > > done now). Also, I hope to run a substantial article on images and LC
            > > 109 in the 2009 issue (again DV); at least I have someone slated to do
            > > it and some research is done.
            > > The 2008 I think surpasses the 2007 in variety/number of articles, but
            > > also, very surprisingly to me, in length. The 2008 should (still some
            > > last minute work) hit the 312 page mark, passing the what I thought
            > > was huge 304 of the 2007. And that is without any work on the text of
            > > the Larger Catechism, which, as it turns out, would not have fit given
            > > the length of everything else any way.
            > > Sincerely,
            > > Chris Coldwell
            > > The Confessional Presbyterian journal
            > > www.cpjournal.com
            > >
            >
          • bob_suden
            Thanks, Chris. It will be interesting to see what Smith makes of Frame s latest. Re: the text of a large Puritan work which needs editing for publication .
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 17, 2008
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              Thanks, Chris.

              It will be interesting to see what Smith makes of Frame's latest.
              Re: "the text of a large Puritan work which needs editing for publication". As in Oliver Bowles'  Treatise on the Evangelical Pastor?  And if not, do you know anything about how that project is progressing?
              Re: the baptist Needham essay on the WCF, psalmody and hymns in the WCF in the 21st Century  what was L. Duncan thinking? Are the PCA southern  presbyterians  nominating him as a champion or a sacrificial lamb?


              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Coldwell" <naphtali@...> wrote:
              >
              > Bob,
              > Yes; I had hope to yesterday but juggling last minute things and also
              > waiting on one last piece and the artwork to button the issue up; but
              > that shouldn't prevent posting the contents which I will try to do
              > later today and start sending out renewals maybe tomorrow.
              > As for Rutherford. I do think about it; it would be very hard work.
              > The easiest would be Paul's Presbytery (smallest and nicest structure)
              > but church government is a poor seller; several oversized volumes
              > containing more than one work may be the way to go; but that makes for
              > huge projects. And actually, I have thought about redoing a collected
              > Gillespie but that still requires a huge amount of work, mostly
              > because of the work needed to check/revise edit Aaron's Rod
              > Blossoming; translate, and research the bibliography etc. Right now
              > I'm reworking the fast sermons of the Scots commissioners to the
              > Westminster Assembly into one volume; and contemplating issuing it in
              > the 17th century presbyterians series versus Lulu. It deserves the
              > full offset printing treatment but it depends on if I can get a sense
              > of any market for it and get interest from resellers and pre pub
              > commitments. After that I have a commitment to finish all of Durham's
              > sermons for a one volume project, which would put everything by Durham
              > into print (and then eventually I have the text and rights to reissue
              > the Revelation commentary in a matching format to the other large
              > Durham volumes, Lord willing). And I have the text of a large Puritan
              > work which needs editing for publication. That and I will have to
              > start on CPJ 5 planning in a few months has my hands tied for a while.
              > Thanks for asking.
              > Chris Coldwell
              > Editor, The Confessional Presbyterian journal
              > www.cpjournal.com
              >
              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
              > bsuden@ wrote:
              > >
              > > Chris,
              > > Will you be posting the table of contents?
              > > Are there any plans to start reprinting Rutherford now that you have
              > > reprinted most of Gillespie?
              > > Thank you,
              > > Bob S.
              > >
              > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Coldwell"
              > > <naphtali@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Seeing this thread I wanted to post an FYI that Frame's Doctrine of
              > > > the Christian Life, more specifically his chapters on the second
              > > > commandment, are reviewed by Frank J. Smith in the forthcoming 2008
              > > > issue of the Confessional Presbyterian journal, DV (getting close to
              > > > done now). Also, I hope to run a substantial article on images and LC
              > > > 109 in the 2009 issue (again DV); at least I have someone slated to do
              > > > it and some research is done.
              > > > The 2008 I think surpasses the 2007 in variety/number of articles, but
              > > > also, very surprisingly to me, in length. The 2008 should (still some
              > > > last minute work) hit the 312 page mark, passing the what I thought
              > > > was huge 304 of the 2007. And that is without any work on the text of
              > > > the Larger Catechism, which, as it turns out, would not have fit given
              > > > the length of everything else any way.
              > > > Sincerely,
              > > > Chris Coldwell
              > > > The Confessional Presbyterian journal
              > > > www.cpjournal.com
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • Chris Coldwell
              Bob, On the editorial decision making for Westminster 21st century; can t say. It may be we takes what we can gets. I hear that, though the parameters of CPJ
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 17, 2008
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                Bob,
                On the editorial decision making for Westminster 21st century; can't
                say. It may be "we takes what we can gets." I hear that, though the
                parameters of CPJ safeguard it significantly. On Needham, yes, for its
                length it is surprisingly off the mark (not just in its conclusion but
                in its method). Mr. Winzer does a fine job taking Needham's case apart
                in considerably less space. The large Puritan work is Cawdrey and
                Palmer's Sabbatum Redivivum (1645; 1652) in four parts. No, I have not
                heard anything about the Bowles (the Ryken project right?); but such
                things take a long time. On Dr. Smith's take on Frame, I suspect I'm
                not giving anything away if I say that the review is not favorable.
                Sincerely,
                Chris Coldwell
                Editor, The Confessional Presbyterian
                www.cpjournal.com

                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                <bsuden@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks, Chris.
                >
                > It will be interesting to see what Smith makes of Frame's latest.
                > Re: "the text of a large Puritan work which needs editing for
                > publication". As in Oliver Bowles' Treatise on the Evangelical Pastor?
                > And if not, do you know anything about how that project is progressing?
                > Re: the baptist Needham essay on the WCF, psalmody and hymns in the WCF
                > in the 21st Century what was L. Duncan thinking? Are the PCA southern
                > presbyterians nominating him as a champion or a sacrificial lamb?
                >
                >
                > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Coldwell"
                > <naphtali@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Bob,
                > > Yes; I had hope to yesterday but juggling last minute things and also
                > > waiting on one last piece and the artwork to button the issue up; but
                > > that shouldn't prevent posting the contents which I will try to do
                > > later today and start sending out renewals maybe tomorrow.
                > > As for Rutherford. I do think about it; it would be very hard work.
                > > The easiest would be Paul's Presbytery (smallest and nicest structure)
                > > but church government is a poor seller; several oversized volumes
                > > containing more than one work may be the way to go; but that makes for
                > > huge projects. And actually, I have thought about redoing a collected
                > > Gillespie but that still requires a huge amount of work, mostly
                > > because of the work needed to check/revise edit Aaron's Rod
                > > Blossoming; translate, and research the bibliography etc. Right now
                > > I'm reworking the fast sermons of the Scots commissioners to the
                > > Westminster Assembly into one volume; and contemplating issuing it in
                > > the 17th century presbyterians series versus Lulu. It deserves the
                > > full offset printing treatment but it depends on if I can get a sense
                > > of any market for it and get interest from resellers and pre pub
                > > commitments. After that I have a commitment to finish all of Durham's
                > > sermons for a one volume project, which would put everything by Durham
                > > into print (and then eventually I have the text and rights to reissue
                > > the Revelation commentary in a matching format to the other large
                > > Durham volumes, Lord willing). And I have the text of a large Puritan
                > > work which needs editing for publication. That and I will have to
                > > start on CPJ 5 planning in a few months has my hands tied for a while.
                > > Thanks for asking.
                > > Chris Coldwell
                > > Editor, The Confessional Presbyterian journal
                > > www.cpjournal.com
                > >
                > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                > > bsuden@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Chris,
                > > > Will you be posting the table of contents?
                > > > Are there any plans to start reprinting Rutherford now that you
                > have
                > > > reprinted most of Gillespie?
                > > > Thank you,
                > > > Bob S.
                > > >
                > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Coldwell"
                > > > <naphtali@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Seeing this thread I wanted to post an FYI that Frame's Doctrine
                > of
                > > > > the Christian Life, more specifically his chapters on the second
                > > > > commandment, are reviewed by Frank J. Smith in the forthcoming
                > 2008
                > > > > issue of the Confessional Presbyterian journal, DV (getting close
                > to
                > > > > done now). Also, I hope to run a substantial article on images and
                > LC
                > > > > 109 in the 2009 issue (again DV); at least I have someone slated
                > to do
                > > > > it and some research is done.
                > > > > The 2008 I think surpasses the 2007 in variety/number of articles,
                > but
                > > > > also, very surprisingly to me, in length. The 2008 should (still
                > some
                > > > > last minute work) hit the 312 page mark, passing the what I
                > thought
                > > > > was huge 304 of the 2007. And that is without any work on the text
                > of
                > > > > the Larger Catechism, which, as it turns out, would not have fit
                > given
                > > > > the length of everything else any way.
                > > > > Sincerely,
                > > > > Chris Coldwell
                > > > > The Confessional Presbyterian journal
                > > > > www.cpjournal.com
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • bob_suden
                ... Sad, very sad - and inexcusable. L. Duncan was the editor for RAP 94 edition of Carruthers Everyday Work of the WAssembly, one chapter of which was
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 18, 2008
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                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Coldwell" <naphtali@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Bob,
                  > On the editorial decision making for Westminster 21st century; can't
                  > say. It may be "we takes what we can gets."

                  Sad, very sad - and inexcusable. L. Duncan was the editor for RAP '94 edition of  Carruthers' Everyday Work of the WAssembly, one chapter of which was actually entitled "The Metrical Psalms". But if you can't bother reading "Of Singing of Psalms" in the Directory for Public Worship, why let anything else get in your way?

                  >I hear that, though the
                  > parameters of CPJ safeguard it significantly. On Needham, yes, for its
                  > length it is surprisingly off the mark (not just in its conclusion but
                  > in its method). Mr. Winzer does a fine job taking Needham's case apart
                  > in considerably less space.

                  It is not that hard to do, though I haven't seen too many attempts. After all, Luther at first thought Erasmus was rather ridiculous on free will and wasn't going to bother.

                  The large Puritan work is Cawdrey and
                  > Palmer's Sabbatum Redivivum (1645; 1652) in four parts. No, I have not
                  > heard anything about the Bowles (the Ryken project right?); but such
                  > things take a long time.

                  Ryken at one time told me it was on hold, but I saw an excerpt reprinted somewhere and figured you might be in the know.

                  >On Dr. Smith's take on Frame, I suspect I'm
                  > not giving anything away if I say that the review is not favorable.

                  I would suspect as much. How could it be?
                  FWIW the Table of Contents for   Frame's latest, Doct. of the Chr. Life  is  here, but the links are dead.

                  thanks,
                  B

                  >
                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                  > bsuden@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Thanks, Chris.
                  > >
                  > > It will be interesting to see what Smith makes of Frame's latest.
                  > > Re: "the text of a large Puritan work which needs editing for
                  > > publication". As in Oliver Bowles' Treatise on the Evangelical Pastor?
                  > > And if not, do you know anything about how that project is progressing?
                  > > Re: the baptist Needham essay on the WCF, psalmody and hymns in the WCF
                  > > in the 21st Century what was L. Duncan thinking? Are the PCA southern
                  > > presbyterians nominating him as a champion or a sacrificial lamb?
                  > >
                  > >
                • Chris Coldwell
                  Bob, ... Yes; on the plain sense reading I think you are right, but some have insisted on controverting that and because opinion is varied outside the context
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 19, 2008
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                    Bob,
                    > It is not that hard to do, though I haven't seen too many attempts.
                    > After all, Luther at first thought Erasmus was rather ridiculous on free
                    > will and wasn't going to bother.

                    Yes; on the plain sense reading I think you are right, but some have
                    insisted on controverting that and because opinion is varied outside
                    the context of the Assembly it is a bit of work to assemble an answer.
                    But as I say, Mr. Winzer did a fine job.

                    > I would suspect as much. How could it be?
                    > FWIW the Table of Contents for Frame's latest, Doct. of the Chr. Life
                    > is here
                    Well, I did pick up the book; the text is somewhat spruced up (at
                    least the chapters under review) so the book is not a straight "dump"
                    of what used to be posted, though I suspect not significantly
                    different, so it was necessary to review the print version. It is a
                    big book certainly.

                    Chris
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