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Re: The North American Reformed Seminary (TNARS) - free seminary

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  • bob_suden
    Sorry, in that a seminary - at least IMO - is to train men to be defenders of the faith, running an endorsement by one of the premier contemporary saboteurs of
    Message 1 of 19 , Aug 8, 2008
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      Sorry, in that a seminary - at least IMO - is to train men to be defenders of the faith, running an endorsement by one of the premier contemporary saboteurs of the same is - shall we say - a trifle  schizophrenic. Not cool, to put it mildly.

      As for the Framites, what about these who aren't? In my book, an endorsement by JF is the kiss of death. I'd only expect more of the happy clappy cr*p that JF is known for from TNARS.  Yes, I know, Paul tells the Corinthians he caught them with guile 2 Cor. 12:16, but he also tells us that we are not to do evil that good may result Rom. 3:8. A false pretence of false amity toward JF's theology crosses the line. If it is false. Perhaps it is real. How are we to know, in that an endorsement usually means someone is glad to get it from the party giving it?

      But to be brutally blunt about it for those without a clue, regardless of how arrogant  and "unloving" that sounds, what we have been witnessing in our day is a full scale assault on the doctrine, worship and government of the reformed church by many  within the camp.  Having begun with jus divinum church government (Schlissel and congregationalism), Frame and all his buddies have been hacking away at reformed worship, (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne, Meyer, Gore) all the time they have had their eye on the crown jewels, i.e. justification by faith. After all, a lot of the Federal Vision cut their teeth dissing the RPW (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne, Meyer).

      Frame hasn't publicly thrown in with the FV yet, but regardless if he ultimately does or not, the modus operandi is the same. Distort, mischaracterize and misrepresent the confessional orthodox position and then substitute schlock in its place, never  mind that if you can't tell us what the confessional position really is in the first place, you're incompetent to the question to begin with. Frame has played his part in the mess the contemporary reformed church finds itself in, which is why a genuine reformed seminary not only doesn't need an endorsement from him, but  would  - if consistent - reject  and repudiate it.

      Thank you,
      cordially
      Bob S.


      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas" <fraasrd@...> wrote:
      >
      > I would run in anyway. I think any endorsement by a notable figure
      > among Reformed/Protestant churches would tend to draw students. An
      > endorsement by a professor or pastor does not suggest that the
      > seminary endorses him back. If I were running a seminary I would
      > want Frame-ites to feel encouraged to apply. How else are they
      > going to become Reformed? Although I would exclude it if it were
      > not likely to draw students for the seminary, like an endorsement
      > from Grand Inquisitor Joe Ratzinger or Ehud Barak.
      >
      > Riley
      >
      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
      > bsuden@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Hello again, Larry
      > >
      > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
      > > <larryicr@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > I appreciate that honest [correct and pointed] criticism of Dr.
      > Frame.
      > >
      > > Good. Glad to hear it. Will you or TNARS act upon it?
      > >
      > > > I don't agree with everything that he teaches, and as you
      > mentioned he
      > > > doesn't teach at TNARS either.
      > >
      > > Agreed, but will TNARS continue to run his endorsement?
      > >
      > > > The materials that are taught at TNARS are from a Westminster
      > > > Standards point of reference. That's the important thing in my
      > > opinion.
      > >
      > > Exactly. Which is just the point. I don't care if John Frame is a
      > > theological idiot savant that can do prime numbers in his head
      > when it
      > > comes to apologetics. Rather Mr. Frame is doing what he can in
      > our
      > > day and time under our very noses to undercut those very same
      > > Standards, if not the Word of God itself, with his fraudulent,
      > errant
      > > and nonconfessional theology, accompanied all the while with his
      > > profession of love for and belief in both the Standards and the
      > > Scripture. My question again is: who needs papists with
      > presbyterians
      > > like this?
      > >
      > > > Did you have any issues with what we were teaching? All of the
      > classes
      > > > are accessible from our website.
      > >
      > > That I haven't had a chance to look into.
      > > But like I might just as well said, why bother? If TNARS thinks an
      > > endorsement from John Frame is a plus or at least necessary to
      > > acknowledge, that might seem to speak volumes about TNARS's
      > theological
      > > discernment. As in the lack thereof.
      > > (And that even before we begin the discussion over long distance
      > vs. on
      > > site/in person theological education.)
      > >
      > > Again, I appreciate your efforts with the TNARS, Larry, but
      > theology
      > > according to the Three Stooges gets me going and that is what I
      > consider
      > > Mr. Frame's output to be.
      > > If the written word of God is infallible, perspicuous and
      > sufficient,
      > > than among other things, pictures of Christ are unnecessary -
      > as well
      > > as forbidden in that same word - at least according to the WS. But
      > not
      > > according to John Frame.
      > >
      > > Fine. Slap him with a gag order, give him a box of crayons, and
      > let him
      > > have at it in the church's nursery - or better yet in the pope's
      > > catechism class. Instead he's publishing, pontificating and
      > handing out
      > > endorsements - and what's worse, protestant presbyterians accept
      > them
      > > at face value. That I got a problem with.
      > >
      > > Thanks again,
      > >
      > > cordially in the Word become flesh,
      > > Bob S.
      > >
      >
    • Larry Bray
      Although i don t agree with all that Dr. Frame espouses, i most likely don t agree with all of what any one man believes. I certainly think that Dr. Frame
      Message 2 of 19 , Aug 8, 2008
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        Although i don't agree with all that Dr. Frame espouses, i most likely
        don't agree with all of what any one man believes. I certainly think
        that Dr. Frame falls within the pale of orthodoxy.

        Those who think that everyone must be on exactly the same page as
        themselves have done great harm to the Church.

        For instance, i believe that theonomy goes too far in making the
        application of the moral law normative, when it's really the moral law
        itself that is normative. I think Dr. Frame goes to far the other way
        in believing that even the normative moral law is...for lack of a
        better word...bendable.


        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
        <bsuden@...> wrote:
        >
        > Sorry, in that a seminary - at least IMO - is to train men to be
        > defenders of the faith, running an endorsement by one of the premier
        > contemporary saboteurs of the same is - shall we say - a trifle
        > schizophrenic. Not cool, to put it mildly.
        >
        > As for the Framites, what about these who aren't? In my book, an
        > endorsement by JF is the kiss of death. I'd only expect more of the
        > happy clappy cr*p that JF is known for from TNARS. Yes, I know, Paul
        > tells the Corinthians he caught them with guile 2 Cor. 12:16, but he
        > also tells us that we are not to do evil that good may result Rom. 3:8.
        > A false pretence of false amity toward JF's theology crosses the line.
        > If it is false. Perhaps it is real. How are we to know, in that an
        > endorsement usually means someone is glad to get it from the party
        > giving it?
        >
        > But to be brutally blunt about it for those without a clue, regardless
        > of how arrogant and "unloving" that sounds, what we have been
        > witnessing in our day is a full scale assault on the doctrine, worship
        > and government of the reformed church by many within the camp. Having
        > begun with jus divinum church government (Schlissel and
        > congregationalism), Frame and all his buddies have been hacking away at
        > reformed worship, (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne, Meyer,
        > Gore) all the time they have had their eye on the crown jewels, i.e.
        > justification by faith. After all, a lot of the Federal Vision cut their
        > teeth dissing the RPW
        >
        <http://reformedveritas.blogspot.com/2007/10/federal-visions-fraudulent-\
        > version-of.html> (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne, Meyer).
        >
        > Frame hasn't publicly thrown in with the FV yet, but regardless if he
        > ultimately does or not, the modus operandi is the same. Distort,
        > mischaracterize and misrepresent the confessional orthodox position and
        > then substitute schlock in its place, never mind that if you can't tell
        > us what the confessional position really is in the first place, you're
        > incompetent to the question to begin with. Frame has played his part in
        > the mess the contemporary reformed church finds itself in, which is why
        > a genuine reformed seminary not only doesn't need an endorsement from
        > him, but would - if consistent - reject and repudiate it.
        >
        > Thank you,
        > cordially
        > Bob S.
        >
        >
        > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
        > <fraasrd@> wrote:
        > >
        > > I would run in anyway. I think any endorsement by a notable figure
        > > among Reformed/Protestant churches would tend to draw students. An
        > > endorsement by a professor or pastor does not suggest that the
        > > seminary endorses him back. If I were running a seminary I would
        > > want Frame-ites to feel encouraged to apply. How else are they
        > > going to become Reformed? Although I would exclude it if it were
        > > not likely to draw students for the seminary, like an endorsement
        > > from Grand Inquisitor Joe Ratzinger or Ehud Barak.
        > >
        > > Riley
        > >
        > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
        > > bsuden@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > Hello again, Larry
        > > >
        > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
        > > > <larryicr@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > I appreciate that honest [correct and pointed] criticism of Dr.
        > > Frame.
        > > >
        > > > Good. Glad to hear it. Will you or TNARS act upon it?
        > > >
        > > > > I don't agree with everything that he teaches, and as you
        > > mentioned he
        > > > > doesn't teach at TNARS either.
        > > >
        > > > Agreed, but will TNARS continue to run his endorsement?
        > > >
        > > > > The materials that are taught at TNARS are from a Westminster
        > > > > Standards point of reference. That's the important thing in my
        > > > opinion.
        > > >
        > > > Exactly. Which is just the point. I don't care if John Frame is a
        > > > theological idiot savant that can do prime numbers in his head
        > > when it
        > > > comes to apologetics. Rather Mr. Frame is doing what he can in
        > > our
        > > > day and time under our very noses to undercut those very same
        > > > Standards, if not the Word of God itself, with his fraudulent,
        > > errant
        > > > and nonconfessional theology, accompanied all the while with his
        > > > profession of love for and belief in both the Standards and the
        > > > Scripture. My question again is: who needs papists with
        > > presbyterians
        > > > like this?
        > > >
        > > > > Did you have any issues with what we were teaching? All of the
        > > classes
        > > > > are accessible from our website.
        > > >
        > > > That I haven't had a chance to look into.
        > > > But like I might just as well said, why bother? If TNARS thinks an
        > > > endorsement from John Frame is a plus or at least necessary to
        > > > acknowledge, that might seem to speak volumes about TNARS's
        > > theological
        > > > discernment. As in the lack thereof.
        > > > (And that even before we begin the discussion over long distance
        > > vs. on
        > > > site/in person theological education.)
        > > >
        > > > Again, I appreciate your efforts with the TNARS, Larry, but
        > > theology
        > > > according to the Three Stooges gets me going and that is what I
        > > consider
        > > > Mr. Frame's output to be.
        > > > If the written word of God is infallible, perspicuous and
        > > sufficient,
        > > > than among other things, pictures of Christ are unnecessary -
        > > as well
        > > > as forbidden in that same word - at least according to the WS. But
        > > not
        > > > according to John Frame.
        > > >
        > > > Fine. Slap him with a gag order, give him a box of crayons, and
        > > let him
        > > > have at it in the church's nursery - or better yet in the pope's
        > > > catechism class. Instead he's publishing, pontificating and
        > > handing out
        > > > endorsements - and what's worse, protestant presbyterians accept
        > > them
        > > > at face value. That I got a problem with.
        > > >
        > > > Thanks again,
        > > >
        > > > cordially in the Word become flesh,
        > > > Bob S.
        > > >
        > >
        >
      • bob_suden
        The question is not whether we ever can agree 100% with someone, but on what points we agree or disagree. Frame s argument and doctrine on pedagogical pictures
        Message 3 of 19 , Aug 9, 2008
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          The question is not whether we ever can agree 100% with someone, but on
          what points we agree or disagree. Frame's argument and doctrine on
          pedagogical pictures of Christ is an attack on the doctrine of Scripture
          - Chapt. 1 of the Confession and one of the two principium of the
          Reformed faith, the other being the doctrine of God.

          In other words, the issue comes down to whether we will have the
          preaching of Christ or pictures of Christ, i.e. deja vu the Reformation
          conflict between Protestantism and popery.

          Of course Frame and his defenders think all the above a non sequitur -
          as if Frame's methodology itself is rigorously logical, never mind
          confessional, which is yet another mark against him regardless of what
          his "reformed" fans think. Others think it no small thing. Without
          apology I side with the latter.

          If a reformed seminary is to equip men to be able like the men of
          Issachar, to know the times and what Israel ought to do, an endorsement
          from a leading theologian of the day who has proudly, arrogantly and
          enthusiastically laid waste to the biblical and confessional doctrine of
          reformed worship does not say much for that seminary's reformed
          theological discernment.





          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
          <larryicr@...> wrote:
          >
          > Although i don't agree with all that Dr. Frame espouses, i most likely
          > don't agree with all of what any one man believes. I certainly think
          > that Dr. Frame falls within the pale of orthodoxy.
          >
          > Those who think that everyone must be on exactly the same page as
          > themselves have done great harm to the Church.
          >
          > For instance, i believe that theonomy goes too far in making the
          > application of the moral law normative, when it's really the moral law
          > itself that is normative. I think Dr. Frame goes to far the other way
          > in believing that even the normative moral law is...for lack of a
          > better word...bendable.
          >
          >
          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
          > bsuden@ wrote:
          > >
          > > Sorry, in that a seminary - at least IMO - is to train men to be
          > > defenders of the faith, running an endorsement by one of the premier
          > > contemporary saboteurs of the same is - shall we say - a trifle
          > > schizophrenic. Not cool, to put it mildly.
          > >
          > > As for the Framites, what about these who aren't? In my book, an
          > > endorsement by JF is the kiss of death. I'd only expect more of the
          > > happy clappy cr*p that JF is known for from TNARS. Yes, I know,
          Paul
          > > tells the Corinthians he caught them with guile 2 Cor. 12:16, but he
          > > also tells us that we are not to do evil that good may result Rom.
          3:8.
          > > A false pretence of false amity toward JF's theology crosses the
          line.
          > > If it is false. Perhaps it is real. How are we to know, in that an
          > > endorsement usually means someone is glad to get it from the party
          > > giving it?
          > >
          > > But to be brutally blunt about it for those without a clue,
          regardless
          > > of how arrogant and "unloving" that sounds, what we have been
          > > witnessing in our day is a full scale assault on the doctrine,
          worship
          > > and government of the reformed church by many within the camp.
          Having
          > > begun with jus divinum church government (Schlissel and
          > > congregationalism), Frame and all his buddies have been hacking away
          at
          > > reformed worship, (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne,
          Meyer,
          > > Gore) all the time they have had their eye on the crown jewels, i.e.
          > > justification by faith. After all, a lot of the Federal Vision cut
          their
          > > teeth dissing the RPW
          > >
          >
          <http://reformedveritas.blogspot.com/2007/10/federal-visions-fraudulent-\
          \
          > > version-of.html> (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne,
          Meyer).
          > >
          > > Frame hasn't publicly thrown in with the FV yet, but regardless if
          he
          > > ultimately does or not, the modus operandi is the same. Distort,
          > > mischaracterize and misrepresent the confessional orthodox position
          and
          > > then substitute schlock in its place, never mind that if you can't
          tell
          > > us what the confessional position really is in the first place,
          you're
          > > incompetent to the question to begin with. Frame has played his part
          in
          > > the mess the contemporary reformed church finds itself in, which is
          why
          > > a genuine reformed seminary not only doesn't need an endorsement
          from
          > > him, but would - if consistent - reject and repudiate it.
          > >
          > > Thank you,
          > > cordially
          > > Bob S.
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
          > > <fraasrd@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > I would run in anyway. I think any endorsement by a notable
          figure
          > > > among Reformed/Protestant churches would tend to draw students.
          An
          > > > endorsement by a professor or pastor does not suggest that the
          > > > seminary endorses him back. If I were running a seminary I would
          > > > want Frame-ites to feel encouraged to apply. How else are they
          > > > going to become Reformed? Although I would exclude it if it were
          > > > not likely to draw students for the seminary, like an endorsement
          > > > from Grand Inquisitor Joe Ratzinger or Ehud Barak.
          > > >
          > > > Riley
          > > >
        • bob_suden
          [Edit, not Send] ... an endorsement from a leading theologian of the day who has proudly, arrogantly and enthusiastically laid waste to the biblical and
          Message 4 of 19 , Aug 9, 2008
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            [Edit, not Send]

            ...  an endorsement from a leading "theologian" of the day who has proudly, arrogantly and enthusiastically laid waste to the biblical and confessional doctrine of reformed worship - and who is doing what he can to undercut the reformed doctrine of preaching and through it the doctrine of  Scripture -  does not say much for the Naive American Reformed Seminary's theological discernment.

            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden" <bsuden@...> wrote:
            >
            > The question is not whether we ever can agree 100% with someone, but on
            > what points we agree or disagree. Frame's argument and doctrine on
            > pedagogical pictures of Christ is an attack on the doctrine of Scripture
            > - Chapt. 1 of the Confession and one of the two principium of the
            > Reformed faith, the other being the doctrine of God.
            >
            > In other words, the issue comes down to whether we will have the
            > preaching of Christ or pictures of Christ, i.e. deja vu the Reformation
            > conflict between Protestantism and popery.
            >
            > Of course Frame and his defenders think all the above a non sequitur -
            > as if Frame's methodology itself is rigorously logical, never mind
            > confessional, which is yet another mark against him regardless of what
            > his "reformed" fans think. Others think it no small thing. Without
            > apology I side with the latter.
            >
            > If a reformed seminary is to equip men to be able like the men of
            > Issachar, to know the times and what Israel ought to do, an endorsement
            > from a leading theologian of the day who has proudly, arrogantly and
            > enthusiastically laid waste to the biblical and confessional doctrine of
            > reformed worship does not say much for that seminary's reformed
            > theological discernment.
            >
            >
            > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
            > larryicr@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Although i don't agree with all that Dr. Frame espouses, i most likely
            > > don't agree with all of what any one man believes. I certainly think
            > > that Dr. Frame falls within the pale of orthodoxy.
            > >
            > > Those who think that everyone must be on exactly the same page as
            > > themselves have done great harm to the Church.
            > >
            > > For instance, i believe that theonomy goes too far in making the
            > > application of the moral law normative, when it's really the moral law
            > > itself that is normative. I think Dr. Frame goes to far the other way
            > > in believing that even the normative moral law is...for lack of a
            > > better word...bendable.
            > >
            > >
          • Larry Bray
            First let me just say that Dr. Frame is anything but arrogant. You claim that his teaching on images of Christ is an attack on Scripture. Do you also believe
            Message 5 of 19 , Aug 9, 2008
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              First let me just say that Dr. Frame is anything but arrogant.

              You claim that his teaching on images of Christ is an attack on
              Scripture. Do you also believe that teachings outside of the
              Westminster Standards like the continental view on the Sabbath is also
              an attack on Scripture?

              Dr. Frame uses Scripture to back up his teaching on images of Christ.
              His interpretation of the command referring to making images for the
              purpose of worship is backed up in Lev 26:1 -

              "You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar,
              and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to
              it, for I am the Lord your God."

              where we are told that we aren't to make an image "to bow down to it."

              In 2 Ki 18:4 we see Hezekiah destroying the bronze serpent (a picture
              of Christ). Though the image was permitted, the people started
              worshiping it, and that is what broke the command and therefore caused
              its destruction.

              Dr Frame also considers that permitting images in our mind of Jesus,
              since He was in the flesh, keeps us from the heresy of Docetism.


              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
              <bsuden@...> wrote:
              >
              > The question is not whether we ever can agree 100% with someone, but on
              > what points we agree or disagree. Frame's argument and doctrine on
              > pedagogical pictures of Christ is an attack on the doctrine of Scripture
              > - Chapt. 1 of the Confession and one of the two principium of the
              > Reformed faith, the other being the doctrine of God.
              >
              > In other words, the issue comes down to whether we will have the
              > preaching of Christ or pictures of Christ, i.e. deja vu the Reformation
              > conflict between Protestantism and popery.
              >
              > Of course Frame and his defenders think all the above a non sequitur -
              > as if Frame's methodology itself is rigorously logical, never mind
              > confessional, which is yet another mark against him regardless of what
              > his "reformed" fans think. Others think it no small thing. Without
              > apology I side with the latter.
              >
              > If a reformed seminary is to equip men to be able like the men of
              > Issachar, to know the times and what Israel ought to do, an endorsement
              > from a leading theologian of the day who has proudly, arrogantly and
              > enthusiastically laid waste to the biblical and confessional doctrine of
              > reformed worship does not say much for that seminary's reformed
              > theological discernment.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
              > <larryicr@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Although i don't agree with all that Dr. Frame espouses, i most likely
              > > don't agree with all of what any one man believes. I certainly think
              > > that Dr. Frame falls within the pale of orthodoxy.
              > >
              > > Those who think that everyone must be on exactly the same page as
              > > themselves have done great harm to the Church.
              > >
              > > For instance, i believe that theonomy goes too far in making the
              > > application of the moral law normative, when it's really the moral law
              > > itself that is normative. I think Dr. Frame goes to far the other way
              > > in believing that even the normative moral law is...for lack of a
              > > better word...bendable.
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
              > > bsuden@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Sorry, in that a seminary - at least IMO - is to train men to be
              > > > defenders of the faith, running an endorsement by one of the premier
              > > > contemporary saboteurs of the same is - shall we say - a trifle
              > > > schizophrenic. Not cool, to put it mildly.
              > > >
              > > > As for the Framites, what about these who aren't? In my book, an
              > > > endorsement by JF is the kiss of death. I'd only expect more of the
              > > > happy clappy cr*p that JF is known for from TNARS. Yes, I know,
              > Paul
              > > > tells the Corinthians he caught them with guile 2 Cor. 12:16, but he
              > > > also tells us that we are not to do evil that good may result Rom.
              > 3:8.
              > > > A false pretence of false amity toward JF's theology crosses the
              > line.
              > > > If it is false. Perhaps it is real. How are we to know, in that an
              > > > endorsement usually means someone is glad to get it from the party
              > > > giving it?
              > > >
              > > > But to be brutally blunt about it for those without a clue,
              > regardless
              > > > of how arrogant and "unloving" that sounds, what we have been
              > > > witnessing in our day is a full scale assault on the doctrine,
              > worship
              > > > and government of the reformed church by many within the camp.
              > Having
              > > > begun with jus divinum church government (Schlissel and
              > > > congregationalism), Frame and all his buddies have been hacking away
              > at
              > > > reformed worship, (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne,
              > Meyer,
              > > > Gore) all the time they have had their eye on the crown jewels, i.e.
              > > > justification by faith. After all, a lot of the Federal Vision cut
              > their
              > > > teeth dissing the RPW
              > > >
              > >
              >
              <http://reformedveritas.blogspot.com/2007/10/federal-visions-fraudulent-\
              > \
              > > > version-of.html> (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne,
              > Meyer).
              > > >
              > > > Frame hasn't publicly thrown in with the FV yet, but regardless if
              > he
              > > > ultimately does or not, the modus operandi is the same. Distort,
              > > > mischaracterize and misrepresent the confessional orthodox position
              > and
              > > > then substitute schlock in its place, never mind that if you can't
              > tell
              > > > us what the confessional position really is in the first place,
              > you're
              > > > incompetent to the question to begin with. Frame has played his part
              > in
              > > > the mess the contemporary reformed church finds itself in, which is
              > why
              > > > a genuine reformed seminary not only doesn't need an endorsement
              > from
              > > > him, but would - if consistent - reject and repudiate it.
              > > >
              > > > Thank you,
              > > > cordially
              > > > Bob S.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
              > > > <fraasrd@> wrote:
              > > > >
              > > > > I would run in anyway. I think any endorsement by a notable
              > figure
              > > > > among Reformed/Protestant churches would tend to draw students.
              > An
              > > > > endorsement by a professor or pastor does not suggest that the
              > > > > seminary endorses him back. If I were running a seminary I would
              > > > > want Frame-ites to feel encouraged to apply. How else are they
              > > > > going to become Reformed? Although I would exclude it if it were
              > > > > not likely to draw students for the seminary, like an endorsement
              > > > > from Grand Inquisitor Joe Ratzinger or Ehud Barak.
              > > > >
              > > > > Riley
              > > > >
              >
            • Larry Bray
              Frankly, i am glad that we don t attract people such as yourself who have so much enmity for others in the Body of Christ.
              Message 6 of 19 , Aug 9, 2008
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                Frankly, i am glad that we don't attract people such as yourself who
                have so much enmity for others in the Body of Christ.

                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                <bsuden@...> wrote:
                >
                > [Edit, not Send]
                >
                > ... an endorsement from a leading "theologian" of the day who has
                > proudly, arrogantly and enthusiastically laid waste to the biblical and
                > confessional doctrine of reformed worship - and who is doing what he can
                > to undercut the reformed doctrine of preaching and through it the
                > doctrine of Scripture - does not say much for the Naive American
                > Reformed Seminary's theological discernment.
                >
                > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                > <bsuden@> wrote:
                > >
                > > The question is not whether we ever can agree 100% with someone, but
                > on
                > > what points we agree or disagree. Frame's argument and doctrine on
                > > pedagogical pictures of Christ is an attack on the doctrine of
                > Scripture
                > > - Chapt. 1 of the Confession and one of the two principium of the
                > > Reformed faith, the other being the doctrine of God.
                > >
                > > In other words, the issue comes down to whether we will have the
                > > preaching of Christ or pictures of Christ, i.e. deja vu the
                > Reformation
                > > conflict between Protestantism and popery.
                > >
                > > Of course Frame and his defenders think all the above a non sequitur
                > -
                > > as if Frame's methodology itself is rigorously logical, never mind
                > > confessional, which is yet another mark against him regardless of what
                > > his "reformed" fans think. Others think it no small thing. Without
                > > apology I side with the latter.
                > >
                > > If a reformed seminary is to equip men to be able like the men of
                > > Issachar, to know the times and what Israel ought to do, an
                > endorsement
                > > from a leading theologian of the day who has proudly, arrogantly and
                > > enthusiastically laid waste to the biblical and confessional doctrine
                > of
                > > reformed worship does not say much for that seminary's reformed
                > > theological discernment.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
                > > larryicr@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Although i don't agree with all that Dr. Frame espouses, i most
                > likely
                > > > don't agree with all of what any one man believes. I certainly think
                > > > that Dr. Frame falls within the pale of orthodoxy.
                > > >
                > > > Those who think that everyone must be on exactly the same page as
                > > > themselves have done great harm to the Church.
                > > >
                > > > For instance, i believe that theonomy goes too far in making the
                > > > application of the moral law normative, when it's really the moral
                > law
                > > > itself that is normative. I think Dr. Frame goes to far the other
                > way
                > > > in believing that even the normative moral law is...for lack of a
                > > > better word...bendable.
                > > >
                > > >
                >
              • ghowmil
                Bob is correct, People like John Frame who have claimed to be spokesmen for orthodoxy over the years have a great responsibility. If they wish to overthrow
                Message 7 of 19 , Aug 9, 2008
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                  Bob is correct,

                  People like John Frame who have claimed to be spokesmen for orthodoxy
                  over the years have a great responsibility.

                  If they wish to overthrow Reformed orthodoxy in worship etc, then they
                  need to be honest and admit that their thinking is not compatible with
                  the Reformers and the Reformed Confessions and resign as a teacher
                  from any institution that claims to be Reformed. Such public teachers
                  not only hurt the Reformation, they prove themselves to be
                  hypocritical when claiming to teach biblical truth.

                  Neither should a seminary want endorsement from such a 'teacher'.

                  Kind Regards,

                  Gary
                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                  <bsuden@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > The question is not whether we ever can agree 100% with someone, but on
                  > what points we agree or disagree. Frame's argument and doctrine on
                  > pedagogical pictures of Christ is an attack on the doctrine of Scripture
                  > - Chapt. 1 of the Confession and one of the two principium of the
                  > Reformed faith, the other being the doctrine of God.
                  >
                  > In other words, the issue comes down to whether we will have the
                  > preaching of Christ or pictures of Christ, i.e. deja vu the Reformation
                  > conflict between Protestantism and popery.
                  >
                  > Of course Frame and his defenders think all the above a non sequitur -
                  > as if Frame's methodology itself is rigorously logical, never mind
                  > confessional, which is yet another mark against him regardless of what
                  > his "reformed" fans think. Others think it no small thing. Without
                  > apology I side with the latter.
                  >
                  > If a reformed seminary is to equip men to be able like the men of
                  > Issachar, to know the times and what Israel ought to do, an endorsement
                  > from a leading theologian of the day who has proudly, arrogantly and
                  > enthusiastically laid waste to the biblical and confessional doctrine of
                  > reformed worship does not say much for that seminary's reformed
                  > theological discernment.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
                  > <larryicr@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Although i don't agree with all that Dr. Frame espouses, i most likely
                  > > don't agree with all of what any one man believes. I certainly think
                  > > that Dr. Frame falls within the pale of orthodoxy.
                  > >
                  > > Those who think that everyone must be on exactly the same page as
                  > > themselves have done great harm to the Church.
                  > >
                  > > For instance, i believe that theonomy goes too far in making the
                  > > application of the moral law normative, when it's really the moral law
                  > > itself that is normative. I think Dr. Frame goes to far the other way
                  > > in believing that even the normative moral law is...for lack of a
                  > > better word...bendable.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                  > > bsuden@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Sorry, in that a seminary - at least IMO - is to train men to be
                  > > > defenders of the faith, running an endorsement by one of the premier
                  > > > contemporary saboteurs of the same is - shall we say - a trifle
                  > > > schizophrenic. Not cool, to put it mildly.
                  > > >
                  > > > As for the Framites, what about these who aren't? In my book, an
                  > > > endorsement by JF is the kiss of death. I'd only expect more of the
                  > > > happy clappy cr*p that JF is known for from TNARS. Yes, I know,
                  > Paul
                  > > > tells the Corinthians he caught them with guile 2 Cor. 12:16, but he
                  > > > also tells us that we are not to do evil that good may result Rom.
                  > 3:8.
                  > > > A false pretence of false amity toward JF's theology crosses the
                  > line.
                  > > > If it is false. Perhaps it is real. How are we to know, in that an
                  > > > endorsement usually means someone is glad to get it from the party
                  > > > giving it?
                  > > >
                  > > > But to be brutally blunt about it for those without a clue,
                  > regardless
                  > > > of how arrogant and "unloving" that sounds, what we have been
                  > > > witnessing in our day is a full scale assault on the doctrine,
                  > worship
                  > > > and government of the reformed church by many within the camp.
                  > Having
                  > > > begun with jus divinum church government (Schlissel and
                  > > > congregationalism), Frame and all his buddies have been hacking away
                  > at
                  > > > reformed worship, (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne,
                  > Meyer,
                  > > > Gore) all the time they have had their eye on the crown jewels, i.e.
                  > > > justification by faith. After all, a lot of the Federal Vision cut
                  > their
                  > > > teeth dissing the RPW
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  <http://reformedveritas.blogspot.com/2007/10/federal-visions-fraudulent-\
                  > \
                  > > > version-of.html> (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne,
                  > Meyer).
                  > > >
                  > > > Frame hasn't publicly thrown in with the FV yet, but regardless if
                  > he
                  > > > ultimately does or not, the modus operandi is the same. Distort,
                  > > > mischaracterize and misrepresent the confessional orthodox position
                  > and
                  > > > then substitute schlock in its place, never mind that if you can't
                  > tell
                  > > > us what the confessional position really is in the first place,
                  > you're
                  > > > incompetent to the question to begin with. Frame has played his part
                  > in
                  > > > the mess the contemporary reformed church finds itself in, which is
                  > why
                  > > > a genuine reformed seminary not only doesn't need an endorsement
                  > from
                  > > > him, but would - if consistent - reject and repudiate it.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thank you,
                  > > > cordially
                  > > > Bob S.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
                  > > > <fraasrd@> wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I would run in anyway. I think any endorsement by a notable
                  > figure
                  > > > > among Reformed/Protestant churches would tend to draw students.
                  > An
                  > > > > endorsement by a professor or pastor does not suggest that the
                  > > > > seminary endorses him back. If I were running a seminary I would
                  > > > > want Frame-ites to feel encouraged to apply. How else are they
                  > > > > going to become Reformed? Although I would exclude it if it were
                  > > > > not likely to draw students for the seminary, like an endorsement
                  > > > > from Grand Inquisitor Joe Ratzinger or Ehud Barak.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Riley
                  > > > >
                  >
                • ghowmil
                  Hi Larry (May I?), Points noted below for you consideration. ... I am sure JF is a pleasant fellow and respectful of others, but there is such a thing as
                  Message 8 of 19 , Aug 9, 2008
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                    Hi Larry (May I?),

                    Points noted below for you consideration.

                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
                    <larryicr@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > First let me just say that Dr. Frame is anything but arrogant.

                    I am sure JF is a pleasant fellow and respectful of others, but there
                    is such a thing as academic arrogance.

                    >
                    > You claim that his teaching on images of Christ is an attack on
                    > Scripture. Do you also believe that teachings outside of the
                    > Westminster Standards like the continental view on the Sabbath is also
                    > an attack on Scripture?

                    Yes anti-sabbatarian views are an attack on Scripture

                    >
                    > Dr. Frame uses Scripture to back up his teaching on images of Christ.
                    > His interpretation of the command referring to making images for the
                    > purpose of worship is backed up in Lev 26:1 -
                    >
                    > "You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar,
                    > and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to
                    > it, for I am the Lord your God."
                    >
                    > where we are told that we aren't to make an image "to bow down to it."

                    Using any image for any religious purpose is to bow down to it. Yes it
                    is ok to knock up a statue of Knox or paint an image of Calvin but it
                    is not ok to use them for religious purposes.

                    >
                    > In 2 Ki 18:4 we see Hezekiah destroying the bronze serpent (a picture
                    > of Christ). Though the image was permitted, the people started
                    > worshiping it, and that is what broke the command and therefore caused
                    > its destruction.

                    Types of Christ are only found in and sanctioned by Scripture. Are you
                    suggesting we can create new types of our Lord? Where is your biblical
                    warrant. Where is your special revelation to create a bronze
                    serpent?God no longer gives such revelations (Heb. 1:1-2). If images
                    can be pictures or types, what about human beings? The Pope would
                    agree with you.

                    >
                    > Dr Frame also considers that permitting images in our mind of Jesus,
                    > since He was in the flesh, keeps us from the heresy of Docetism.

                    So without the use of images in the mind we are all prone to docetism?
                    I am sure Calvin and Knox would be surprised at this revelation!

                    Kind Regards,

                    Gary
                    covenantedreformation.com

                    >
                    > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                    > <bsuden@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The question is not whether we ever can agree 100% with someone,
                    but on
                    > > what points we agree or disagree. Frame's argument and doctrine on
                    > > pedagogical pictures of Christ is an attack on the doctrine of
                    Scripture
                    > > - Chapt. 1 of the Confession and one of the two principium of the
                    > > Reformed faith, the other being the doctrine of God.
                    > >
                    > > In other words, the issue comes down to whether we will have the
                    > > preaching of Christ or pictures of Christ, i.e. deja vu the
                    Reformation
                    > > conflict between Protestantism and popery.
                    > >
                    > > Of course Frame and his defenders think all the above a non
                    sequitur -
                    > > as if Frame's methodology itself is rigorously logical, never mind
                    > > confessional, which is yet another mark against him regardless of what
                    > > his "reformed" fans think. Others think it no small thing. Without
                    > > apology I side with the latter.
                    > >
                    > > If a reformed seminary is to equip men to be able like the men of
                    > > Issachar, to know the times and what Israel ought to do, an
                    endorsement
                    > > from a leading theologian of the day who has proudly, arrogantly and
                    > > enthusiastically laid waste to the biblical and confessional
                    doctrine of
                    > > reformed worship does not say much for that seminary's reformed
                    > > theological discernment.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
                    > > <larryicr@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Although i don't agree with all that Dr. Frame espouses, i most
                    likely
                    > > > don't agree with all of what any one man believes. I certainly think
                    > > > that Dr. Frame falls within the pale of orthodoxy.
                    > > >
                    > > > Those who think that everyone must be on exactly the same page as
                    > > > themselves have done great harm to the Church.
                    > > >
                    > > > For instance, i believe that theonomy goes too far in making the
                    > > > application of the moral law normative, when it's really the
                    moral law
                    > > > itself that is normative. I think Dr. Frame goes to far the
                    other way
                    > > > in believing that even the normative moral law is...for lack of a
                    > > > better word...bendable.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                    > > > bsuden@ wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Sorry, in that a seminary - at least IMO - is to train men to be
                    > > > > defenders of the faith, running an endorsement by one of the
                    premier
                    > > > > contemporary saboteurs of the same is - shall we say - a trifle
                    > > > > schizophrenic. Not cool, to put it mildly.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > As for the Framites, what about these who aren't? In my book, an
                    > > > > endorsement by JF is the kiss of death. I'd only expect more
                    of the
                    > > > > happy clappy cr*p that JF is known for from TNARS. Yes, I know,
                    > > Paul
                    > > > > tells the Corinthians he caught them with guile 2 Cor. 12:16,
                    but he
                    > > > > also tells us that we are not to do evil that good may result Rom.
                    > > 3:8.
                    > > > > A false pretence of false amity toward JF's theology crosses the
                    > > line.
                    > > > > If it is false. Perhaps it is real. How are we to know, in that an
                    > > > > endorsement usually means someone is glad to get it from the party
                    > > > > giving it?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > But to be brutally blunt about it for those without a clue,
                    > > regardless
                    > > > > of how arrogant and "unloving" that sounds, what we have been
                    > > > > witnessing in our day is a full scale assault on the doctrine,
                    > > worship
                    > > > > and government of the reformed church by many within the camp.
                    > > Having
                    > > > > begun with jus divinum church government (Schlissel and
                    > > > > congregationalism), Frame and all his buddies have been
                    hacking away
                    > > at
                    > > > > reformed worship, (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne,
                    > > Meyer,
                    > > > > Gore) all the time they have had their eye on the crown
                    jewels, i.e.
                    > > > > justification by faith. After all, a lot of the Federal Vision cut
                    > > their
                    > > > > teeth dissing the RPW
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                    <http://reformedveritas.blogspot.com/2007/10/federal-visions-fraudulent-\
                    > > \
                    > > > > version-of.html> (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne,
                    > > Meyer).
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Frame hasn't publicly thrown in with the FV yet, but regardless if
                    > > he
                    > > > > ultimately does or not, the modus operandi is the same. Distort,
                    > > > > mischaracterize and misrepresent the confessional orthodox
                    position
                    > > and
                    > > > > then substitute schlock in its place, never mind that if you
                    can't
                    > > tell
                    > > > > us what the confessional position really is in the first place,
                    > > you're
                    > > > > incompetent to the question to begin with. Frame has played
                    his part
                    > > in
                    > > > > the mess the contemporary reformed church finds itself in,
                    which is
                    > > why
                    > > > > a genuine reformed seminary not only doesn't need an endorsement
                    > > from
                    > > > > him, but would - if consistent - reject and repudiate it.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Thank you,
                    > > > > cordially
                    > > > > Bob S.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
                    > > > > <fraasrd@> wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I would run in anyway. I think any endorsement by a notable
                    > > figure
                    > > > > > among Reformed/Protestant churches would tend to draw students.
                    > > An
                    > > > > > endorsement by a professor or pastor does not suggest that the
                    > > > > > seminary endorses him back. If I were running a seminary I
                    would
                    > > > > > want Frame-ites to feel encouraged to apply. How else are they
                    > > > > > going to become Reformed? Although I would exclude it if it
                    were
                    > > > > > not likely to draw students for the seminary, like an
                    endorsement
                    > > > > > from Grand Inquisitor Joe Ratzinger or Ehud Barak.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Riley
                    > > > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Larry Bray
                    I find it interesting that you speak of erecting images of Calvin, and yet you condemn him as attacking Scripture (since he held to a continental view of the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Aug 9, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I find it interesting that you speak of erecting images of Calvin, and
                      yet you condemn him as attacking Scripture (since he held to a
                      continental view of the Sabbath).

                      So i would presume that you wouldn't be o.k. with schools that Calvin
                      endorsed either...i guess i'm in good company then.

                      You say that using images for religious purposes is a violation...what
                      about the bronze serpent? Certainly that was used for religious
                      purposes...to point to Christ and show the healing power of God. Yet
                      it wasn't until the people actually worshiped it that it was a sin.

                      As to your last points...i do not advocate the use of images, i was
                      simply stating that Dr. Frame has come to a different conclusion - one
                      that i believe is wrong - and why he comes to his conclusions.

                      I can't think of anybody that would be "good enough" to give an
                      endorsement if that meant they had to agree on every point of
                      Scripture...and every point of it is important.


                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "ghowmil"
                      <garnetmilne@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Hi Larry (May I?),
                      >
                      > Points noted below for you consideration.
                      >
                      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
                      > <larryicr@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > First let me just say that Dr. Frame is anything but arrogant.
                      >
                      > I am sure JF is a pleasant fellow and respectful of others, but there
                      > is such a thing as academic arrogance.
                      >
                      > >
                      > > You claim that his teaching on images of Christ is an attack on
                      > > Scripture. Do you also believe that teachings outside of the
                      > > Westminster Standards like the continental view on the Sabbath is also
                      > > an attack on Scripture?
                      >
                      > Yes anti-sabbatarian views are an attack on Scripture
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Dr. Frame uses Scripture to back up his teaching on images of Christ.
                      > > His interpretation of the command referring to making images for the
                      > > purpose of worship is backed up in Lev 26:1 -
                      > >
                      > > "You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar,
                      > > and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to
                      > > it, for I am the Lord your God."
                      > >
                      > > where we are told that we aren't to make an image "to bow down to it."
                      >
                      > Using any image for any religious purpose is to bow down to it. Yes it
                      > is ok to knock up a statue of Knox or paint an image of Calvin but it
                      > is not ok to use them for religious purposes.
                      >
                      > >
                      > > In 2 Ki 18:4 we see Hezekiah destroying the bronze serpent (a picture
                      > > of Christ). Though the image was permitted, the people started
                      > > worshiping it, and that is what broke the command and therefore caused
                      > > its destruction.
                      >
                      > Types of Christ are only found in and sanctioned by Scripture. Are you
                      > suggesting we can create new types of our Lord? Where is your biblical
                      > warrant. Where is your special revelation to create a bronze
                      > serpent?God no longer gives such revelations (Heb. 1:1-2). If images
                      > can be pictures or types, what about human beings? The Pope would
                      > agree with you.
                      >
                      > >
                      > > Dr Frame also considers that permitting images in our mind of Jesus,
                      > > since He was in the flesh, keeps us from the heresy of Docetism.
                      >
                      > So without the use of images in the mind we are all prone to docetism?
                      > I am sure Calvin and Knox would be surprised at this revelation!
                      >
                      > Kind Regards,
                      >
                      > Gary
                      > covenantedreformation.com
                      >
                      > >
                      > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                      > > <bsuden@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > The question is not whether we ever can agree 100% with someone,
                      > but on
                      > > > what points we agree or disagree. Frame's argument and doctrine on
                      > > > pedagogical pictures of Christ is an attack on the doctrine of
                      > Scripture
                      > > > - Chapt. 1 of the Confession and one of the two principium of the
                      > > > Reformed faith, the other being the doctrine of God.
                      > > >
                      > > > In other words, the issue comes down to whether we will have the
                      > > > preaching of Christ or pictures of Christ, i.e. deja vu the
                      > Reformation
                      > > > conflict between Protestantism and popery.
                      > > >
                      > > > Of course Frame and his defenders think all the above a non
                      > sequitur -
                      > > > as if Frame's methodology itself is rigorously logical, never mind
                      > > > confessional, which is yet another mark against him regardless
                      of what
                      > > > his "reformed" fans think. Others think it no small thing. Without
                      > > > apology I side with the latter.
                      > > >
                      > > > If a reformed seminary is to equip men to be able like the men of
                      > > > Issachar, to know the times and what Israel ought to do, an
                      > endorsement
                      > > > from a leading theologian of the day who has proudly, arrogantly and
                      > > > enthusiastically laid waste to the biblical and confessional
                      > doctrine of
                      > > > reformed worship does not say much for that seminary's reformed
                      > > > theological discernment.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
                      > > > <larryicr@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Although i don't agree with all that Dr. Frame espouses, i most
                      > likely
                      > > > > don't agree with all of what any one man believes. I certainly
                      think
                      > > > > that Dr. Frame falls within the pale of orthodoxy.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Those who think that everyone must be on exactly the same page as
                      > > > > themselves have done great harm to the Church.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > For instance, i believe that theonomy goes too far in making the
                      > > > > application of the moral law normative, when it's really the
                      > moral law
                      > > > > itself that is normative. I think Dr. Frame goes to far the
                      > other way
                      > > > > in believing that even the normative moral law is...for lack of a
                      > > > > better word...bendable.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                      > > > > bsuden@ wrote:
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Sorry, in that a seminary - at least IMO - is to train men to be
                      > > > > > defenders of the faith, running an endorsement by one of the
                      > premier
                      > > > > > contemporary saboteurs of the same is - shall we say - a trifle
                      > > > > > schizophrenic. Not cool, to put it mildly.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > As for the Framites, what about these who aren't? In my book, an
                      > > > > > endorsement by JF is the kiss of death. I'd only expect more
                      > of the
                      > > > > > happy clappy cr*p that JF is known for from TNARS. Yes, I know,
                      > > > Paul
                      > > > > > tells the Corinthians he caught them with guile 2 Cor. 12:16,
                      > but he
                      > > > > > also tells us that we are not to do evil that good may
                      result Rom.
                      > > > 3:8.
                      > > > > > A false pretence of false amity toward JF's theology crosses the
                      > > > line.
                      > > > > > If it is false. Perhaps it is real. How are we to know, in
                      that an
                      > > > > > endorsement usually means someone is glad to get it from the
                      party
                      > > > > > giving it?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > But to be brutally blunt about it for those without a clue,
                      > > > regardless
                      > > > > > of how arrogant and "unloving" that sounds, what we have been
                      > > > > > witnessing in our day is a full scale assault on the doctrine,
                      > > > worship
                      > > > > > and government of the reformed church by many within the camp.
                      > > > Having
                      > > > > > begun with jus divinum church government (Schlissel and
                      > > > > > congregationalism), Frame and all his buddies have been
                      > hacking away
                      > > > at
                      > > > > > reformed worship, (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne,
                      > > > Meyer,
                      > > > > > Gore) all the time they have had their eye on the crown
                      > jewels, i.e.
                      > > > > > justification by faith. After all, a lot of the Federal
                      Vision cut
                      > > > their
                      > > > > > teeth dissing the RPW
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                      <http://reformedveritas.blogspot.com/2007/10/federal-visions-fraudulent-\
                      > > > \
                      > > > > > version-of.html> (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne,
                      > > > Meyer).
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Frame hasn't publicly thrown in with the FV yet, but
                      regardless if
                      > > > he
                      > > > > > ultimately does or not, the modus operandi is the same. Distort,
                      > > > > > mischaracterize and misrepresent the confessional orthodox
                      > position
                      > > > and
                      > > > > > then substitute schlock in its place, never mind that if you
                      > can't
                      > > > tell
                      > > > > > us what the confessional position really is in the first place,
                      > > > you're
                      > > > > > incompetent to the question to begin with. Frame has played
                      > his part
                      > > > in
                      > > > > > the mess the contemporary reformed church finds itself in,
                      > which is
                      > > > why
                      > > > > > a genuine reformed seminary not only doesn't need an endorsement
                      > > > from
                      > > > > > him, but would - if consistent - reject and repudiate it.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Thank you,
                      > > > > > cordially
                      > > > > > Bob S.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
                      > > > > > <fraasrd@> wrote:
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I would run in anyway. I think any endorsement by a notable
                      > > > figure
                      > > > > > > among Reformed/Protestant churches would tend to draw
                      students.
                      > > > An
                      > > > > > > endorsement by a professor or pastor does not suggest that the
                      > > > > > > seminary endorses him back. If I were running a seminary I
                      > would
                      > > > > > > want Frame-ites to feel encouraged to apply. How else are
                      they
                      > > > > > > going to become Reformed? Although I would exclude it if it
                      > were
                      > > > > > > not likely to draw students for the seminary, like an
                      > endorsement
                      > > > > > > from Grand Inquisitor Joe Ratzinger or Ehud Barak.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Riley
                      > > > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Ic Neltococayotl
                      ... Hi Larry. Quick question. What is your understanding of the Continental view of the Sabbath ? On what time period exactly is your definition guided or
                      Message 10 of 19 , Aug 9, 2008
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                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
                        <larryicr@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > I find it interesting that you speak of erecting images of Calvin, and
                        > yet you condemn him as attacking Scripture (since he held to a
                        > continental view of the Sabbath).
                        >

                        Hi Larry.

                        Quick question.

                        What is your understanding of the "Continental view of the Sabbath"? On
                        what time period exactly is your definition guided or influenced by?


                        Thank you very much!

                        Edgar Ibarra
                        www.PresbiterianoReformado.org
                      • Gary Milne
                        Hi Larry, Here is Moses warrant (Nu 21:8,9.). Can you give me your revelation please? Of course you do not have to because you do not agree with JF. You say
                        Message 11 of 19 , Aug 9, 2008
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                          Hi Larry, Here is Moses warrant (Nu 21:8,9.). Can you give me your revelation please? Of course you do not have to because you do not agree with JF. You say you disagree with Frame over images and yet you support him? If you disagree then you can only do so on biblical grounds. Can you kindly clarify whether you think it is right to make images of God or not? If you disagree with the use of images of God, do you do so on biblical grounds? What are those grounds?

                           

                          As to Calvin and the Sabbath – Scholars disagree whether he held to the modern ‘continental view’ you are using as an example/analogy. However if Calvin or anyone else holds to a position which is not sanctioned by Scripture the he is wrong.

                           

                          It is not a question over whether JF does not seek to argue from Scripture, but whether he does so successfully. He does not do so successfully and instead undermines a vital aspect of the Christian faith. No, Calvin did not undermine vital aspects of the Christian faith in my view.

                           

                          Since you disagree with JF Larry, why are you being so defensive?

                           

                          Here is Calvin on the 2nd commandment. I encourage you to read it and prepare to be edified.

                           

                          Every blessing,

                           

                          Gary

                           

                          4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. In the First

                          Commandment, after He had taught who was the true God, He

                          commanded that He alone should e worshipped; and now He defines what

                          is HIS LEGITIMATE WORSHIP. Now, since these are two distinct things, we

                          conclude that the commandments are also distinct, in which different

                          things are treated of. The former indeed precedes in order, viz., that

                          believers are to be contented with one God; but it would not be sufficient

                          for us to be instructed to worship him alone, unless we also knew the

                          manner in which He would be worshipped. The sum is, that the worship

                          of God must be spiritual, in order that it may correspond with His nature.

                          For although Moses only speaks of idolatry, yet there is no doubt but that

                          by synecdoche, as in all the rest of the Law, he condemns all fictitious

                          services which men in their ingenuity have invented. For hence have arisen

                          the carnal mixtures whereby God’s worship has been profaned, that they

                          estimate Him according to their own reason, and thus in a manner

                          metamorphose Him. It is necessary, then, to remember what God is, lest

                          we should form any gross or earthly ideas respecting Him. The words

                          simply express that it is wrong f79 for men to seek the presence of God in

                          any visible image, because He cannot be represented to our eyes. The

                          command that they should not make any likeness, either of any thing

                          which is in heaven, or in the earth, or in the waters under the earth, is

                          derived from the evil custom which had everywhere prevailed; for, since

                          superstition is never uniform, but is drawn aside in various directions,

                          some thought that God was represented under the form of fishes, others

                          under that of birds, others in that of brutes; and history especially

                          recounts by what shameless delusions Egypt was led astray. And hence

                          too the vanity of men is declared, since, whithersoever they turn their

                          eyes, they everywhere lay hold of the materials of error, notwithstanding

                          that God’s glory shines on every side, and whatever is seen above or

                          below, invites us to the true God.

                          Since, therefore, men are thus deluded, so as to frame for themselves the

                          materials of error from all things they behold, Moses now elevates them

                          above the whole fabric and elements of the world; for by the things that

                          are “in heaven above,” he designates not only the birds, but the sun, and

                          the moon, and all the stars also; as will soon be seen. He declares, then,

                          that a true image of God is not to be found in all the world; and hence that

                          His glory is defiled, and His truth corrupted by the lie, whenever He is set

                          before our eyes in a visible form. Now we must remark, that there are two

                          parts in the Commandment — the first forbids the erection of a graven

                          image, or any likeness; the second prohibits the transferring of the worship

                          which God claims for Himself alone, to any of these phantoms or delusive

                          shows. Therefore, to devise any image of God, is in itself impious; because

                          by this corruption His Majesty is adulterated, and He is figured to be

                          other than He is. There is no need of refuting the foolish fancy of some,

                          that all sculptures and pictures are here condemned by Moses, for he had

                          no other object than to rescue God’s glory from all the imaginations which

                          tend to corrupt it. And assuredly it is a most gross indecency to make God

                          like a stock or a stone. Some expound the words, “Thou shalt not make to

                          thyself a graven image, which thou mayest adore;” f80 as if it were

                          allowable to make a visible image of God, provided it be not adored; but

                          the expositions which will follow will easily refute their error.

                           

                           

                           

                          From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Bray
                          Sent: Sunday, 10 August 2008 8:45 a.m.
                          To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: The North American Reformed Seminary (TNARS) - free seminary

                           

                          I find it interesting that you speak of erecting images of Calvin, and
                          yet you condemn him as attacking Scripture (since he held to a
                          continental view of the Sabbath).

                          So i would presume that you wouldn't be o.k. with schools that Calvin
                          endorsed either...i guess i'm in good company then.

                          You say that using images for religious purposes is a violation...what
                          about the bronze serpent? Certainly that was used for religious
                          purposes...to point to Christ and show the healing power of God. Yet
                          it wasn't until the people actually worshiped it that it was a sin.

                          As to your last points...i do not advocate the use of images, i was
                          simply stating that Dr. Frame has come to a different conclusion - one
                          that i believe is wrong - and why he comes to his conclusions.

                          I can't think of anybody that would be "good enough" to give an
                          endorsement if that meant they had to agree on every point of
                          Scripture...and every point of it is important.

                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "ghowmil"
                          <garnetmilne@...> wrote:

                          >
                          >
                          > Hi Larry (May I?),
                          >
                          > Points noted below for you consideration.
                          >
                          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                          "Larry Bray"
                          > <larryicr@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > First let me just say that Dr. Frame is anything but arrogant.
                          >
                          > I am sure JF is a pleasant fellow and respectful of others, but there
                          > is such a thing as academic arrogance.
                          >
                          > >
                          > > You claim that his teaching on images of Christ is an attack on
                          > > Scripture. Do you also believe that teachings outside of the
                          > > Westminster Standards like the continental view on the Sabbath is
                          also
                          > > an attack on Scripture?
                          >
                          > Yes anti-sabbatarian views are an attack on Scripture
                          >
                          > >
                          > > Dr. Frame uses Scripture to back up his teaching on images of Christ.
                          > > His interpretation of the command referring to making images for the
                          > > purpose of worship is backed up in Lev 26:1 -
                          > >
                          > > "You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or
                          pillar,
                          > > and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to
                          > > it, for I am the Lord your God."
                          > >
                          > > where we are told that we aren't to make an image "to bow down
                          to it."
                          >
                          > Using any image for any religious purpose is to bow down to it. Yes it
                          > is ok to knock up a statue of Knox or paint an image of Calvin but it
                          > is not ok to use them for religious purposes.
                          >
                          > >
                          > > In 2 Ki 18:4 we see Hezekiah destroying the bronze serpent (a picture
                          > > of Christ). Though the image was permitted, the people started
                          > > worshiping it, and that is what broke the command and therefore
                          caused
                          > > its destruction.
                          >
                          > Types of Christ are only found in and sanctioned by Scripture. Are you
                          > suggesting we can create new types of our Lord? Where is your biblical
                          > warrant. Where is your special revelation to create a bronze
                          > serpent?God no longer gives such revelations (Heb. 1:1-2). If images
                          > can be pictures or types, what about human beings? The Pope would
                          > agree with you.
                          >
                          > >
                          > > Dr Frame also considers that permitting images in our mind of Jesus,
                          > > since He was in the flesh, keeps us from the heresy of Docetism.
                          >
                          > So without the use of images in the mind we are all prone to docetism?
                          > I am sure Calvin and Knox would be surprised at this revelation!
                          >
                          > Kind Regards,
                          >
                          > Gary
                          > covenantedreformation.com
                          >
                          > >
                          > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                          "bob_suden"
                          > > <bsuden@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > The question is not whether we ever can agree 100% with someone,
                          > but on
                          > > > what points we agree or disagree. Frame's argument and doctrine
                          on
                          > > > pedagogical pictures of Christ is an attack on the doctrine of
                          > Scripture
                          > > > - Chapt. 1 of the Confession and one of the two principium of
                          the
                          > > > Reformed faith, the other being the doctrine of God.
                          > > >
                          > > > In other words, the issue comes down to whether we will have the
                          > > > preaching of Christ or pictures of Christ, i.e. deja vu the
                          > Reformation
                          > > > conflict between Protestantism and popery.
                          > > >
                          > > > Of course Frame and his defenders think all the above a non
                          > sequitur -
                          > > > as if Frame's methodology itself is rigorously logical, never mind
                          > > > confessional, which is yet another mark against him regardless
                          of what
                          > > > his "reformed" fans think. Others think it no small
                          thing. Without
                          > > > apology I side with the latter.
                          > > >
                          > > > If a reformed seminary is to equip men to be able like the men
                          of
                          > > > Issachar, to know the times and what Israel ought to do, an
                          > endorsement
                          > > > from a leading theologian of the day who has proudly, arrogantly
                          and
                          > > > enthusiastically laid waste to the biblical and confessional
                          > doctrine of
                          > > > reformed worship does not say much for that seminary's reformed
                          > > > theological discernment.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In
                          href="mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com">covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
                          > > > <larryicr@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Although i don't agree with all that Dr. Frame espouses, i
                          most
                          > likely
                          > > > > don't agree with all of what any one man believes. I
                          certainly
                          think
                          > > > > that Dr. Frame falls within the pale of orthodoxy.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Those who think that everyone must be on exactly the same
                          page as
                          > > > > themselves have done great harm to the Church.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > For instance, i believe that theonomy goes too far in
                          making the
                          > > > > application of the moral law normative, when it's really
                          the
                          > moral law
                          > > > > itself that is normative. I think Dr. Frame goes to far the
                          > other way
                          > > > > in believing that even the normative moral law is...for
                          lack of a
                          > > > > better word...bendable.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In
                          href="mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com">covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                          > > > > bsuden@ wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Sorry, in that a seminary - at least IMO - is to train
                          men to be
                          > > > > > defenders of the faith, running an endorsement by one
                          of the
                          > premier
                          > > > > > contemporary saboteurs of the same is - shall we say -
                          a trifle
                          > > > > > schizophrenic. Not cool, to put it mildly.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > As for the Framites, what about these who aren't? In
                          my book, an
                          > > > > > endorsement by JF is the kiss of death. I'd only
                          expect more
                          > of the
                          > > > > > happy clappy cr*p that JF is known for from TNARS.
                          Yes, I know,
                          > > > Paul
                          > > > > > tells the Corinthians he caught them with guile 2 Cor.
                          12:16,
                          > but he
                          > > > > > also tells us that we are not to do evil that good may
                          result Rom.
                          > > > 3:8.
                          > > > > > A false pretence of false amity toward JF's theology
                          crosses the
                          > > > line.
                          > > > > > If it is false. Perhaps it is real. How are we to
                          know, in
                          that an
                          > > > > > endorsement usually means someone is glad to get it
                          from the
                          party
                          > > > > > giving it?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > But to be brutally blunt about it for those without a
                          clue,
                          > > > regardless
                          > > > > > of how arrogant and "unloving" that sounds, what
                          we have been
                          > > > > > witnessing in our day is a full scale assault on the
                          doctrine,
                          > > > worship
                          > > > > > and government of the reformed church by many within
                          the camp.
                          > > > Having
                          > > > > > begun with jus divinum church government (Schlissel and
                          > > > > > congregationalism), Frame and all his buddies have
                          been
                          > hacking away
                          > > > at
                          > > > > > reformed worship, (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson,
                          Leithart, Horne,
                          > > > Meyer,
                          > > > > > Gore) all the time they have had their eye on the
                          crown
                          > jewels, i.e.
                          > > > > > justification by faith. After all, a lot of the
                          Federal
                          Vision cut
                          > > > their
                          > > > > > teeth dissing the RPW
                          > > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                          <http://reformedveritas.blogspot.com/2007/10/federal-visions-fraudulent-\
                          > > > \
                          > > > > > version-of.html> (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne,
                          > > > Meyer).
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Frame hasn't publicly thrown in with the FV yet, but
                          regardless if
                          > > > he
                          > > > > > ultimately does or not, the modus operandi is the
                          same. Distort,
                          > > > > > mischaracterize and misrepresent the confessional
                          orthodox
                          > position
                          > > > and
                          > > > > > then substitute schlock in its place, never mind that
                          if you
                          > can't
                          > > > tell
                          > > > > > us what the confessional position really is in the
                          first place,
                          > > > you're
                          > > > > > incompetent to the question to begin with. Frame has
                          played
                          > his part
                          > > > in
                          > > > > > the mess the contemporary reformed church finds itself
                          in,
                          > which is
                          > > > why
                          > > > > > a genuine reformed seminary not only doesn't need an
                          endorsement
                          > > > from
                          > > > > > him, but would - if consistent - reject and repudiate
                          it.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Thank you,
                          > > > > > cordially
                          > > > > > Bob S.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > --- In
                          href="mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com">covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
                          > > > > > <fraasrd@> wrote:
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > I would run in anyway. I think any endorsement by
                          a notable
                          > > > figure
                          > > > > > > among Reformed/Protestant churches would tend to
                          draw
                          students.
                          > > > An
                          > > > > > > endorsement by a professor or pastor does not
                          suggest that the
                          > > > > > > seminary endorses him back. If I were running a
                          seminary I
                          > would
                          > > > > > > want Frame-ites to feel encouraged to apply. How
                          else are
                          they
                          > > > > > > going to become Reformed? Although I would
                          exclude it if it
                          > were
                          > > > > > > not likely to draw students for the seminary,
                          like an
                          > endorsement
                          > > > > > > from Grand Inquisitor Joe Ratzinger or Ehud
                          Barak.
                          > > > > > >
                          > > > > > > Riley
                          > > > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >

                        • Larry Bray
                          I believe that images of God, any person of the Triunity, are against God s will and a sin. I wasn t defending Frame s position, simply giving his reasons for
                          Message 12 of 19 , Aug 9, 2008
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                            I believe that images of God, any person of the Triunity, are against
                            God's will and a sin.

                            I wasn't defending Frame's position, simply giving his reasons for the
                            position, which were derived from Scripture.

                            Reading Calvin's work i don't think that he held to the Sabbatarian
                            view that the Westminster Standards adhere to. I adhere to the
                            Westminster view.

                            There is not one person who doesn't hold to a wrong view...that was my
                            initial point in saying that i most likely don't agree 100% with
                            anyone's theology. That doesn't mean that they aren't brothers in
                            Christ, not does it mean that i would spurn their endorsement of godly
                            education.

                            The Sabbath of God is part of the same commandments that idolatry is a
                            part of. I would never suggest, as you have, that the Sabbath command
                            is not vital but the idolatry command is. We don't have the authority
                            to pick and choose what we consider vital "parts" of the
                            Scripture...they are all vital.


                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Milne"
                            <garnetmilne@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Larry, Here is Moses warrant (Nu 21:8,9.). Can you give me your
                            > revelation please? Of course you do not have to because you do not agree
                            > with JF. You say you disagree with Frame over images and yet you support
                            > him? If you disagree then you can only do so on biblical grounds.
                            Can you
                            > kindly clarify whether you think it is right to make images of God
                            or not?
                            > If you disagree with the use of images of God, do you do so on biblical
                            > grounds? What are those grounds?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > As to Calvin and the Sabbath - Scholars disagree whether he held to the
                            > modern 'continental view' you are using as an example/analogy.
                            However if
                            > Calvin or anyone else holds to a position which is not sanctioned by
                            > Scripture the he is wrong.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > It is not a question over whether JF does not seek to argue from
                            Scripture,
                            > but whether he does so successfully. He does not do so successfully and
                            > instead undermines a vital aspect of the Christian faith. No, Calvin
                            did not
                            > undermine vital aspects of the Christian faith in my view.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Since you disagree with JF Larry, why are you being so defensive?
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Here is Calvin on the 2nd commandment. I encourage you to read it and
                            > prepare to be edified.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Every blessing,
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Gary
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > 4. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image. In the First
                            >
                            > Commandment, after He had taught who was the true God, He
                            >
                            > commanded that He alone should e worshipped; and now He defines what
                            >
                            > is HIS LEGITIMATE WORSHIP. Now, since these are two distinct things, we
                            >
                            > conclude that the commandments are also distinct, in which different
                            >
                            > things are treated of. The former indeed precedes in order, viz., that
                            >
                            > believers are to be contented with one God; but it would not be
                            sufficient
                            >
                            > for us to be instructed to worship him alone, unless we also knew the
                            >
                            > manner in which He would be worshipped. The sum is, that the worship
                            >
                            > of God must be spiritual, in order that it may correspond with His
                            nature.
                            >
                            > For although Moses only speaks of idolatry, yet there is no doubt
                            but that
                            >
                            > by synecdoche, as in all the rest of the Law, he condemns all fictitious
                            >
                            > services which men in their ingenuity have invented. For hence have
                            arisen
                            >
                            > the carnal mixtures whereby God's worship has been profaned, that they
                            >
                            > estimate Him according to their own reason, and thus in a manner
                            >
                            > metamorphose Him. It is necessary, then, to remember what God is, lest
                            >
                            > we should form any gross or earthly ideas respecting Him. The words
                            >
                            > simply express that it is wrong f79 for men to seek the presence of
                            God in
                            >
                            > any visible image, because He cannot be represented to our eyes. The
                            >
                            > command that they should not make any likeness, either of any thing
                            >
                            > which is in heaven, or in the earth, or in the waters under the
                            earth, is
                            >
                            > derived from the evil custom which had everywhere prevailed; for, since
                            >
                            > superstition is never uniform, but is drawn aside in various directions,
                            >
                            > some thought that God was represented under the form of fishes, others
                            >
                            > under that of birds, others in that of brutes; and history especially
                            >
                            > recounts by what shameless delusions Egypt was led astray. And hence
                            >
                            > too the vanity of men is declared, since, whithersoever they turn their
                            >
                            > eyes, they everywhere lay hold of the materials of error,
                            notwithstanding
                            >
                            > that God's glory shines on every side, and whatever is seen above or
                            >
                            > below, invites us to the true God.
                            >
                            > Since, therefore, men are thus deluded, so as to frame for
                            themselves the
                            >
                            > materials of error from all things they behold, Moses now elevates them
                            >
                            > above the whole fabric and elements of the world; for by the things that
                            >
                            > are "in heaven above," he designates not only the birds, but the
                            sun, and
                            >
                            > the moon, and all the stars also; as will soon be seen. He declares,
                            then,
                            >
                            > that a true image of God is not to be found in all the world; and
                            hence that
                            >
                            > His glory is defiled, and His truth corrupted by the lie, whenever
                            He is set
                            >
                            > before our eyes in a visible form. Now we must remark, that there
                            are two
                            >
                            > parts in the Commandment - the first forbids the erection of a graven
                            >
                            > image, or any likeness; the second prohibits the transferring of the
                            worship
                            >
                            > which God claims for Himself alone, to any of these phantoms or delusive
                            >
                            > shows. Therefore, to devise any image of God, is in itself impious;
                            because
                            >
                            > by this corruption His Majesty is adulterated, and He is figured to be
                            >
                            > other than He is. There is no need of refuting the foolish fancy of
                            some,
                            >
                            > that all sculptures and pictures are here condemned by Moses, for he had
                            >
                            > no other object than to rescue God's glory from all the imaginations
                            which
                            >
                            > tend to corrupt it. And assuredly it is a most gross indecency to
                            make God
                            >
                            > like a stock or a stone. Some expound the words, "Thou shalt not make to
                            >
                            > thyself a graven image, which thou mayest adore;" f80 as if it were
                            >
                            > allowable to make a visible image of God, provided it be not adored; but
                            >
                            > the expositions which will follow will easily refute their error.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                            > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                            Larry Bray
                            > Sent: Sunday, 10 August 2008 8:45 a.m.
                            > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: The North American Reformed
                            Seminary
                            > (TNARS) - free seminary
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > I find it interesting that you speak of erecting images of Calvin, and
                            > yet you condemn him as attacking Scripture (since he held to a
                            > continental view of the Sabbath).
                            >
                            > So i would presume that you wouldn't be o.k. with schools that Calvin
                            > endorsed either...i guess i'm in good company then.
                            >
                            > You say that using images for religious purposes is a violation...what
                            > about the bronze serpent? Certainly that was used for religious
                            > purposes...to point to Christ and show the healing power of God. Yet
                            > it wasn't until the people actually worshiped it that it was a sin.
                            >
                            > As to your last points...i do not advocate the use of images, i was
                            > simply stating that Dr. Frame has come to a different conclusion - one
                            > that i believe is wrong - and why he comes to his conclusions.
                            >
                            > I can't think of anybody that would be "good enough" to give an
                            > endorsement if that meant they had to agree on every point of
                            > Scripture...and every point of it is important.
                            >
                            > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com> , "ghowmil"
                            > <garnetmilne@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Hi Larry (May I?),
                            > >
                            > > Points noted below for you consideration.
                            > >
                            > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com> , "Larry Bray"
                            > > <larryicr@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > First let me just say that Dr. Frame is anything but arrogant.
                            > >
                            > > I am sure JF is a pleasant fellow and respectful of others, but there
                            > > is such a thing as academic arrogance.
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > You claim that his teaching on images of Christ is an attack on
                            > > > Scripture. Do you also believe that teachings outside of the
                            > > > Westminster Standards like the continental view on the Sabbath
                            is also
                            > > > an attack on Scripture?
                            > >
                            > > Yes anti-sabbatarian views are an attack on Scripture
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Dr. Frame uses Scripture to back up his teaching on images of
                            Christ.
                            > > > His interpretation of the command referring to making images for the
                            > > > purpose of worship is backed up in Lev 26:1 -
                            > > >
                            > > > "You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or
                            pillar,
                            > > > and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to
                            > > > it, for I am the Lord your God."
                            > > >
                            > > > where we are told that we aren't to make an image "to bow down
                            to it."
                            > >
                            > > Using any image for any religious purpose is to bow down to it. Yes it
                            > > is ok to knock up a statue of Knox or paint an image of Calvin but it
                            > > is not ok to use them for religious purposes.
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > In 2 Ki 18:4 we see Hezekiah destroying the bronze serpent (a
                            picture
                            > > > of Christ). Though the image was permitted, the people started
                            > > > worshiping it, and that is what broke the command and therefore
                            caused
                            > > > its destruction.
                            > >
                            > > Types of Christ are only found in and sanctioned by Scripture. Are you
                            > > suggesting we can create new types of our Lord? Where is your biblical
                            > > warrant. Where is your special revelation to create a bronze
                            > > serpent?God no longer gives such revelations (Heb. 1:1-2). If images
                            > > can be pictures or types, what about human beings? The Pope would
                            > > agree with you.
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Dr Frame also considers that permitting images in our mind of Jesus,
                            > > > since He was in the flesh, keeps us from the heresy of Docetism.
                            > >
                            > > So without the use of images in the mind we are all prone to docetism?
                            > > I am sure Calvin and Knox would be surprised at this revelation!
                            > >
                            > > Kind Regards,
                            > >
                            > > Gary
                            > > covenantedreformation.com
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com> , "bob_suden"
                            > > > <bsuden@> wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > The question is not whether we ever can agree 100% with someone,
                            > > but on
                            > > > > what points we agree or disagree. Frame's argument and doctrine on
                            > > > > pedagogical pictures of Christ is an attack on the doctrine of
                            > > Scripture
                            > > > > - Chapt. 1 of the Confession and one of the two principium of the
                            > > > > Reformed faith, the other being the doctrine of God.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > In other words, the issue comes down to whether we will have the
                            > > > > preaching of Christ or pictures of Christ, i.e. deja vu the
                            > > Reformation
                            > > > > conflict between Protestantism and popery.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Of course Frame and his defenders think all the above a non
                            > > sequitur -
                            > > > > as if Frame's methodology itself is rigorously logical, never mind
                            > > > > confessional, which is yet another mark against him regardless
                            > of what
                            > > > > his "reformed" fans think. Others think it no small thing. Without
                            > > > > apology I side with the latter.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > If a reformed seminary is to equip men to be able like the men of
                            > > > > Issachar, to know the times and what Israel ought to do, an
                            > > endorsement
                            > > > > from a leading theologian of the day who has proudly,
                            arrogantly and
                            > > > > enthusiastically laid waste to the biblical and confessional
                            > > doctrine of
                            > > > > reformed worship does not say much for that seminary's reformed
                            > > > > theological discernment.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com> , "Larry Bray"
                            > > > > <larryicr@> wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Although i don't agree with all that Dr. Frame espouses, i most
                            > > likely
                            > > > > > don't agree with all of what any one man believes. I certainly
                            > think
                            > > > > > that Dr. Frame falls within the pale of orthodoxy.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Those who think that everyone must be on exactly the same
                            page as
                            > > > > > themselves have done great harm to the Church.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > For instance, i believe that theonomy goes too far in making the
                            > > > > > application of the moral law normative, when it's really the
                            > > moral law
                            > > > > > itself that is normative. I think Dr. Frame goes to far the
                            > > other way
                            > > > > > in believing that even the normative moral law is...for lack
                            of a
                            > > > > > better word...bendable.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com> , "bob_suden"
                            > > > > > bsuden@ wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Sorry, in that a seminary - at least IMO - is to train men
                            to be
                            > > > > > > defenders of the faith, running an endorsement by one of the
                            > > premier
                            > > > > > > contemporary saboteurs of the same is - shall we say - a
                            trifle
                            > > > > > > schizophrenic. Not cool, to put it mildly.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > As for the Framites, what about these who aren't? In my
                            book, an
                            > > > > > > endorsement by JF is the kiss of death. I'd only expect more
                            > > of the
                            > > > > > > happy clappy cr*p that JF is known for from TNARS. Yes, I
                            know,
                            > > > > Paul
                            > > > > > > tells the Corinthians he caught them with guile 2 Cor. 12:16,
                            > > but he
                            > > > > > > also tells us that we are not to do evil that good may
                            > result Rom.
                            > > > > 3:8.
                            > > > > > > A false pretence of false amity toward JF's theology
                            crosses the
                            > > > > line.
                            > > > > > > If it is false. Perhaps it is real. How are we to know, in
                            > that an
                            > > > > > > endorsement usually means someone is glad to get it from the
                            > party
                            > > > > > > giving it?
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > But to be brutally blunt about it for those without a clue,
                            > > > > regardless
                            > > > > > > of how arrogant and "unloving" that sounds, what we have been
                            > > > > > > witnessing in our day is a full scale assault on the doctrine,
                            > > > > worship
                            > > > > > > and government of the reformed church by many within the
                            camp.
                            > > > > Having
                            > > > > > > begun with jus divinum church government (Schlissel and
                            > > > > > > congregationalism), Frame and all his buddies have been
                            > > hacking away
                            > > > > at
                            > > > > > > reformed worship, (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne,
                            > > > > Meyer,
                            > > > > > > Gore) all the time they have had their eye on the crown
                            > > jewels, i.e.
                            > > > > > > justification by faith. After all, a lot of the Federal
                            > Vision cut
                            > > > > their
                            > > > > > > teeth dissing the RPW
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                            <http://reformedveritas.blogspot.com/2007/10/federal-visions-fraudulent-\
                            >
                            <http://reformedveritas.blogspot.com/2007/10/federal-visions-fraudulent->
                            > > > > \
                            > > > > > > version-of.html> (Jordan, Schlissel, Wilson, Leithart, Horne,
                            > > > > Meyer).
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Frame hasn't publicly thrown in with the FV yet, but
                            > regardless if
                            > > > > he
                            > > > > > > ultimately does or not, the modus operandi is the same.
                            Distort,
                            > > > > > > mischaracterize and misrepresent the confessional orthodox
                            > > position
                            > > > > and
                            > > > > > > then substitute schlock in its place, never mind that if you
                            > > can't
                            > > > > tell
                            > > > > > > us what the confessional position really is in the first
                            place,
                            > > > > you're
                            > > > > > > incompetent to the question to begin with. Frame has played
                            > > his part
                            > > > > in
                            > > > > > > the mess the contemporary reformed church finds itself in,
                            > > which is
                            > > > > why
                            > > > > > > a genuine reformed seminary not only doesn't need an
                            endorsement
                            > > > > from
                            > > > > > > him, but would - if consistent - reject and repudiate it.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Thank you,
                            > > > > > > cordially
                            > > > > > > Bob S.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                            > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com> , "Dan Fraas"
                            > > > > > > <fraasrd@> wrote:
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > I would run in anyway. I think any endorsement by a notable
                            > > > > figure
                            > > > > > > > among Reformed/Protestant churches would tend to draw
                            > students.
                            > > > > An
                            > > > > > > > endorsement by a professor or pastor does not suggest
                            that the
                            > > > > > > > seminary endorses him back. If I were running a seminary I
                            > > would
                            > > > > > > > want Frame-ites to feel encouraged to apply. How else are
                            > they
                            > > > > > > > going to become Reformed? Although I would exclude it if it
                            > > were
                            > > > > > > > not likely to draw students for the seminary, like an
                            > > endorsement
                            > > > > > > > from Grand Inquisitor Joe Ratzinger or Ehud Barak.
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > > Riley
                            > > > > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >
                          • bob_suden
                            ... Come on, Larry. You can do better than than taking cheap shots and making snide remarks. I might just as well say look in the mirror. You yourself said
                            Message 13 of 19 , Aug 9, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
                              <larryicr@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Frankly, i am glad that we don't attract people such as yourself who
                              > have so much enmity for others in the Body of Christ.

                              Come on, Larry. You can do better than than taking cheap shots and
                              making snide remarks. I might just as well say look in the mirror. You
                              yourself said that what could be called Frame's antinomian or libertine
                              view of the moral law troubled you. But nobody else can be bothered
                              about Frame's theology?
                              Anyway.

                              > First let me just say that Dr. Frame is anything but arrogant.

                              Garnett nailed it when he referred to "academic arrogance." I've never
                              seen a guy so blithely ignore the confession all the while he claims to
                              uphold it - at least in spirit, if not in substance or something like
                              that - as JF does, all the while in his humble opinion it is wrong.
                              Well, if it is, he has no business saying so outside of the church
                              courts in that he is sworn to uphold at least the WCF. Yet we see no end
                              of popular evangelical theology lite literature gushing forth from his
                              word processor contradicting or questioning the WCF. Evidently the 3rd
                              and 9th commandment are, as you say, "bendable".

                              > You claim that his teaching on images of Christ is an attack on
                              > Scripture. Do you also believe that teachings outside of the
                              > Westminster Standards like the continental view on the Sabbath is also
                              > an attack on Scripture?

                              There was and is progress in the truth. The West. Stands. are the last
                              of the great Reformation confessions and supersede what went before IMO.
                              Further, what is called the continental view at least had a scriptural
                              argument for it. Now days what is called the continental view would more
                              correctly be called the personally convenient view.

                              > Dr. Frame uses Scripture to back up his teaching on images of Christ.
                              > His interpretation of the command referring to making images for the
                              > purpose of worship is backed up in Lev 26:1 -
                              >
                              No, Frame abuses and misuses Scripture, as well as reason. As below,
                              since God can command an image to be made, ipso facto so too can man.

                              > "You shall not make idols for yourselves or erect an image or pillar,
                              > and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land to bow down to
                              > it, for I am the Lord your God."
                              >
                              > where we are told that we aren't to make an image "to bow down to it."
                              >
                              > In 2 Ki 18:4 we see Hezekiah destroying the bronze serpent (a picture
                              > of Christ). Though the image was permitted, the people started
                              > worshiping it, and that is what broke the command and therefore caused
                              > its destruction.
                              >

                              Above and beyond that, in the larger context again, Frame and the rest
                              of the Federal Vision bunch have bought into the fundamental
                              presupposition - and have persistently affirmed it - that since we
                              have an example of an image in Scripture commanded by God, ergo we are
                              permitted to do the same, be it images in the temple or the bronze
                              serpent or where ever. But note bene, this is a non sequitur - it does
                              not follow. It is to arrogate and presume that what God is permitted to
                              do, we are also permitted to do, i.e it is theological confusion.

                              But we are not God nor may we presume his prerogatives in worship or
                              anything else, however novel that stricture might sound to JF and the
                              FV boys. Hence my use of the term arrogant to describe JF's attempt to
                              hijack the RPW and hoodwink the reformed church, which object he might
                              seem to have accomplished respectfully IMO if this conversation is any
                              example.

                              > Dr Frame also considers that permitting images in our mind of Jesus,
                              > since He was in the flesh, keeps us from the heresy of Docetism.

                              But James (Roll) Jordan (Roll) in a typical overheated moment, called
                              the RPW and those who would defend it, examples of "Liturgical
                              Nestorianism". So what? "Doktor" Frame can consider what he likes, but
                              by this time after one has heard his typically casual and sloppy
                              arguments majoring in blather on the RPW etc, he doesn't have much
                              credibility. Much more as usual he offers no substantial and solid
                              reasoning for his opinion other than it is just that, his considered
                              opinion.

                              Well, thank you very much, but I expect more from a reformed
                              theological professor than your average Joe Blow evangelical enthusiast,
                              which is who his remarks might reasonably lead one to believe made
                              them. Either that or more likely a theological quack.

                              cordially in the Word, not the picture, become flesh
                              Bob S.

                              >
                              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                              > bsuden@ wrote:
                              > >
                              > > The question is not whether we ever can agree 100% with someone, but
                              on
                              > > what points we agree or disagree. Frame's argument and doctrine on
                              > > pedagogical pictures of Christ is an attack on the doctrine of
                              Scripture
                              > > - Chapt. 1 of the Confession and one of the two principium of the
                              > > Reformed faith, the other being the doctrine of God.
                              > >
                              > > In other words, the issue comes down to whether we will have the
                              > > preaching of Christ or pictures of Christ, i.e. deja vu the
                              Reformation
                              > > conflict between Protestantism and popery.
                              > >
                              > > Of course Frame and his defenders think all the above a non
                              sequitur -
                              > > as if Frame's methodology itself is rigorously logical, never mind
                              > > confessional, which is yet another mark against him regardless of
                              what
                              > > his "reformed" fans think. Others think it no small thing. Without
                              > > apology I side with the latter.
                              > >
                              > > If a reformed seminary is to equip men to be able like the men of
                              > > Issachar, to know the times and what Israel ought to do, an
                              endorsement
                              > > from a leading theologian of the day who has proudly, arrogantly and
                              > > enthusiastically laid waste to the biblical and confessional
                              doctrine of
                              > > reformed worship does not say much for that seminary's reformed
                              > > theological discernment.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bray"
                              > > <larryicr@> wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > Although i don't agree with all that Dr. Frame espouses, i most
                              likely
                              > > > don't agree with all of what any one man believes. I certainly
                              think
                              > > > that Dr. Frame falls within the pale of orthodoxy.
                              > > >
                              > > > Those who think that everyone must be on exactly the same page as
                              > > > themselves have done great harm to the Church.
                              > > >
                              > > > For instance, i believe that theonomy goes too far in making the
                              > > > application of the moral law normative, when it's really the moral
                              law
                              > > > itself that is normative. I think Dr. Frame goes to far the other
                              way
                              > > > in believing that even the normative moral law is...for lack of a
                              > > > better word...bendable.
                              > > >
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