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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?

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  • Tim Cunningham
    ... 29659/ ... 29659/ (emphasis ... reformed ... months ... *met ... B.A. ... five ... he ... was a ... seemed ... discussions ... Calvin, ... became ... of
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 24, 2008
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      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jerry
      <ragingcalvinist@...> wrote:
      >
      > Chris Tyler?
      >
      > gmw.
      >
      > s_mcclintock1 wrote:
      > >
      > > http://www.puritanboard.com/f64/calvinist-goes-deist-unitarian-
      29659/
      > > <http://www.puritanboard.com/f64/calvinist-goes-deist-unitarian-
      29659/> (emphasis
      > > added, from 2/20/2008)
      > >
      > > About a year ago, I started attending a more *concervative
      reformed
      > > church (URCNA)* and became member in September I think. Two
      months
      > > after I started attending I joined the group of young adults and
      *met
      > > a young man who told me he was also new to the church. He had a
      B.A.
      > > in philosophy and was very well versed theologically. He had
      > > previously been excommunicated from the RPNA, probably the most
      > > radical and exclusivistic reformed denomination still existing in
      > > North America. He had been a member of their church for about
      five
      > > years, and after getting sick of internal tensions and conflicts
      he
      > > left, and they excommunicated him.
      > > *
      > > *The first two months I knew him he was still very radical. He
      was a
      > > strong sabbatharian/covenanter, he still subscribed to WCF and
      seemed
      > > like a solid believer.* I would enjoy having theological
      discussions
      > > with him, as he had read tons of reformed material, including
      Calvin,
      > > Hodge, Gill, Owen, Rutherford and others. Over last summer he
      became
      > > more moderate, more to the level of my church. He became a member
      of
      > > the URCNA and made a profession of faith. In September, he
      started
      > > attending a pre-profession class with me and other people at
      church.
      > > As we discussed our views, he seemed like he had changed his
      > > convictions a lot, he also showed me some liberal theological
      books
      > > that he had rented at the library, which he said that young
      Christians
      > > should not read because it could shatter their faith, but that he
      > > himself would not be moved by it. Afterward he started
      reading "higher
      > > liberal critiques" of Christianity as well as physical theories
      like
      > > string theory, etc. I could notice that he was becoming
      increasingly
      > > dissillusioned, and he admitted having started to become
      more "liberal."
      > >
      > > Last Sunday I noticed that he was not at church, which was
      unusual for
      > > him. Then some of the elders talked to me saying that he had left
      us
      > > after adopting a whole new set of beliefs. So I wrote to him two
      days
      > > ago, *and he basically told me he has rejected Christianity and
      become
      > > a Deist/Unitarian, the strong Calvinist/Presbyterian he was. He
      will
      > > not allow others to reason him out, and my church is in the
      process of
      > > excommunicating him.
      > > *
      > > It really grieves me to see such a thing happening, especially as
      it
      > > is the first time I see someone looking like a genuine believer
      and
      > > good friend of mine go apostate. He said that after all the
      research
      > > he has done, Christianity cannot stand and is a subservient
      system
      > > like any other religion. Close scrutiny shows that the Bible
      cannot be
      > > inspired, and that Christian orthodoxy is merely a historical
      > > development, according to him. I guess this is what happens to
      those
      > > who try to rationalize faith and do away with it. He had read a
      lot of
      > > Christian appologetics, including Van Till, he knew more doctrine
      than
      > > any of my elders, and even had a credible conversion experience
      about
      > > eight years ago, *his life showed external piety, but once the
      poison
      > > reached his faith, it was too late. *
      > >
      > >
      > >
      Tim-Keep in mind that this chap may be only a backslider not
      unregenerate.
    • Deejay
      This of course could very well be true. Though Scripture is clear that Apostasy is what is meant by the unforgiveable sin. But it may very well not be a
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 25, 2008
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        This of course could very well be true.  Though Scripture is clear that Apostasy is what is meant by the unforgiveable sin.  But it may very well not be a final falling away, even so.

         

        But maybe this chap, whoever he may  be, is an example of  the dangers of joining a church that we would have never thought of doing so in our wildest dreams,   until perhaps more recent times.  The archives of this group,  testify to that being the case. 

         

        I am single entity Christian in my world,  and yet I think God in His providence saved me from very much error by that being the case, as hard as it can be, given the spiritual state of England even amongst Christendom. It seems to me, the answer to uphold the cause and further the reformation, isn’t by joining with other demons, if they do not hold to the same things and that we never would have previously,  but by Church planting more RP Churches who do uphold the cause.  Ultimately, revival. 

         

        ~Deejay

         

        About a year ago, I started attending a more concervative reformed church (URCNA) and became member in September I think. Two months after I started attending I joined the group of young adults and met a young man who told me he was also new to the church. He had a B.A. in philosophy and was very well versed theologically. He had previously been excommunicated from the RPNA, probably the most radical and exclusivistic reformed denomination still existing in North America. He had been a member of their church for about five years, and after getting sick of internal tensions and conflicts he left, and they excommunicated him.

         

        From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim Cunningham
        Sent: 24 March 2008 19:11
        To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?

         

        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jerry
        <ragingcalvinist@...> wrote:

        >

        > >
        Tim-Keep in mind that this chap may be only a backslider not
        unregenerate.

      • Ic Neltococayotl
        Deejay, Apostasy goes both ways. One can be in the most soundest church and still commit apostosy from the Truth. Just because one has his/hers doctrinal
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 25, 2008
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          Deejay,

          Apostasy goes both ways. One can be in the most soundest church and
          still commit apostosy from the Truth. Just because one has his/hers
          doctrinal ducks in a row doesn't mean much if his/her faith is dead.

          I ask myself, and others in the RPNA when I was with them, what ever
          happened to the children of Steele, Lusk, and the other "Steelite"
          Covenanters??? Where did they end up and why?

          As for this person referred to, all I can say is:

          There go I, but for grace...

          Edgar


          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Deejay"
          <deejay-forums@...> wrote:
          >
          > This of course could very well be true. Though Scripture is clear that
          > Apostasy is what is meant by the unforgiveable sin. But it may very
          well
          > not be a final falling away, even so.
          >
          >
          >
          > But maybe this chap, whoever he may be, is an example of the dangers
          of
          > joining a church that we would have never thought of doing so in our
          wildest
          > dreams, until perhaps more recent times. The archives of this group,
          > testify to that being the case.
          >
          >
          >
          > I am single entity Christian in my world, and yet I think God in His
          > providence saved me from very much error by that being the case, as
          hard as
          > it can be, given the spiritual state of England even amongst
          Christendom. It
          > seems to me, the answer to uphold the cause and further the
          reformation,
          > isn't by joining with other demons, if they do not hold to the same
          things
          > and that we never would have previously, but by Church planting more
          RP
          > Churches who do uphold the cause. Ultimately, revival.
          >
          >
          >
          > ~Deejay
          >
          >
          >
          > About a year ago, I started attending a more concervative reformed
          church
          > (URCNA) and became member in September I think. Two months after I
          started
          > attending I joined the group of young adults and met a young man who
          told me
          > he was also new to the church. He had a B.A. in philosophy and was
          very well
          > versed theologically. He had previously been excommunicated from the
          RPNA,
          > probably the most radical and exclusivistic reformed denomination
          still
          > existing in North America. He had been a member of their church for
          about
          > five years, and after getting sick of internal tensions and conflicts
          he
          > left, and they excommunicated him.
          >
          >
          >
          > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tim
          > Cunningham
          > Sent: 24 March 2008 19:11
          > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com> , Jerry
          > ragingcalvinist@ wrote:
          > >
          >
          > > >
          > Tim-Keep in mind that this chap may be only a backslider not
          > unregenerate.
          >
        • Deejay
          Edgar, yes of course. That was my point really. That when one can be in the most soundest Church and STILL commit apostasy, then exposing ourselves to
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 25, 2008
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            Edgar,

             

            yes of course.  That was my point really.  That when one can be in the most soundest Church and STILL commit apostasy,  then exposing ourselves to error,  doesn’t seem like the wisest choice as far as caring for our own souls, as much as is up to us.

             

            Amen to your last line.

             

            ~Deejay

             

            From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ic Neltococayotl
            Sent: 26 March 2008 00:06
            To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?

             


            Deejay,

            Apostasy goes both ways. One can be in the most soundest church and
            still commit apostosy from the Truth. Just because one has his/hers
            doctrinal ducks in a row doesn't mean much if his/her faith is dead.

            I ask myself, and others in the RPNA when I was with them, what ever
            happened to the children of Steele, Lusk, and the other "Steelite"
            Covenanters??? Where did they end up and why?

            As for this person referred to, all I can say is:

            There go I, but for grace...

            Edgar

          • Deejay
            Iain Murray I guess would be a good example too. In that he was once a minister for the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, and deeply committed to EP. He
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 26, 2008
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              Iain Murray I guess would be a good example too. In that he was once a minister for the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, and deeply committed to EP.  He then went to Australia and joined the Australian Presbyterian Church,  and is now one of EP’s biggest opponents.  Hence his little booklet of some years ago “The Psalter, the only hymnal” where he attempted to  throw out the validity of Exclusive Psalmody.  I’m not doubting his sincerity as a Christian, or as a Minster,  but i it was sure a big turn around from when he  was still at the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland.

               

              ~Deejay

               

               

              From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Deejay
              Sent: 26 March 2008 01:32
              To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?

               

              Edgar,

               

              yes of course.  That was my point really.  That when one can be in the most soundest Church and STILL commit apostasy,  then exposing ourselves to error,  doesn’t seem like the wisest choice as far as caring for our own souls, as much as is up to us.

               

              Amen to your last line.

               

              ~Deejay

               

              From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ic Neltococayotl
              Sent: 26 March 2008 00:06
              To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?

               


              Deejay,

              Apostasy goes both ways. One can be in the most soundest church and
              still commit apostosy from the Truth. Just because one has his/hers
              doctrinal ducks in a row doesn't mean much if his/her faith is dead.

              I ask myself, and others in the RPNA when I was with them, what ever
              happened to the children of Steele, Lusk, and the other "Steelite"
              Covenanters??? Where did they end up and why?

              As for this person referred to, all I can say is:

              There go I, but for grace...

              Edgar


            • simon_padbury
              ... once a ... Say whaaaaat?! and deeply committed ... Presbyterian ... little booklet ... to ... turn ... Scotland. ... Deejay ... the most ... to ... our own
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 27, 2008
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                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Deejay" <deejay-
                forums@...> wrote:
                >
                > Iain Murray I guess would be a good example too. In that he was
                once a
                > minister for the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland,


                Say whaaaaat?!

                and deeply committed
                > to EP. He then went to Australia and joined the Australian
                Presbyterian
                > Church, and is now one of EP's biggest opponents. Hence his
                little booklet
                > of some years ago "The Psalter, the only hymnal" where he attempted
                to
                > throw out the validity of Exclusive Psalmody. I'm not doubting his
                > sincerity as a Christian, or as a Minster, but i it was sure a big
                turn
                > around from when he was still at the Free Presbyterian Church of
                Scotland.
                >
                >
                >
                > ~Deejay
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                Deejay
                > Sent: 26 March 2008 01:32
                > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?
                >
                >
                >
                > Edgar,
                >
                >
                >
                > yes of course. That was my point really. That when one can be in
                the most
                > soundest Church and STILL commit apostasy, then exposing ourselves
                to
                > error, doesn't seem like the wisest choice as far as caring for
                our own
                > souls, as much as is up to us.
                >
                >
                >
                > Amen to your last line.
                >
                >
                >
                > ~Deejay
                >
                >
                >
                > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ic
                > Neltococayotl
                > Sent: 26 March 2008 00:06
                > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Deejay,
                >
                > Apostasy goes both ways. One can be in the most soundest church and
                > still commit apostosy from the Truth. Just because one has his/hers
                > doctrinal ducks in a row doesn't mean much if his/her faith is dead.
                >
                > I ask myself, and others in the RPNA when I was with them, what ever
                > happened to the children of Steele, Lusk, and the other "Steelite"
                > Covenanters??? Where did they end up and why?
                >
                > As for this person referred to, all I can say is:
                >
                > There go I, but for grace...
                >
                > Edgar
                >
              • Glenn Ferrell
                Deejay: Though Murray s pamphlet on Psalmody is wrong on a number of points, and is well answered by Malcolm Watt s response, I would not call him one of EP s
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 27, 2008
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                  Deejay:
                   
                  Though Murray's pamphlet on Psalmody is wrong on a number of points, and is well answered by Malcolm Watt's response, I would not call him "one of EP's biggest opponents."  I'd guess he has held such views for a while, since his earlier association with Martin Lloyd-Jones.  He makes some arguments against EP; but I don't think of him an ardent anti-EP proponent. 
                   
                  I continue to appreciate much of what Iain Murray has written.  I was a little surprised that Banner of Truth published his anti EP pamphlet.
                   
                  Glenn

                  J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho    http://sovereignredeemer.org



                  To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                  From: deejay-forums@...
                  Date: Wed, 26 Mar 2008 16:28:24 +0000
                  Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?

                  Iain Murray I guess would be a good example too. In that he was once a minister for the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland, and deeply committed to EP.  He then went to Australia and joined the Australian Presbyterian Church,  and is now one of EP’s biggest opponents.  Hence his little booklet of some years ago “The Psalter, the only hymnal” where he attempted to  throw out the validity of Exclusive Psalmody.  I’m not doubting his sincerity as a Christian, or as a Minster,  but i it was sure a big turn around from when he  was still at the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland.

                   

                  ~Deejay

                   

                   

                  From: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:covenantedr eformationclub@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Deejay
                  Sent: 26 March 2008 01:32
                  To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                  Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?

                   

                  Edgar,

                   

                  yes of course.  That was my point really.  That when one can be in the most soundest Church and STILL commit apostasy,  then exposing ourselves to error,  doesn’t seem like the wisest choice as far as caring for our own souls, as much as is up to us.

                   

                  Amen to your last line.

                   

                  ~Deejay

                   

                  From: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:covenantedr eformationclub@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Ic Neltococayotl
                  Sent: 26 March 2008 00:06
                  To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                  Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?

                   


                  Deejay,

                  Apostasy goes both ways. One can be in the most soundest church and
                  still commit apostosy from the Truth. Just because one has his/hers
                  doctrinal ducks in a row doesn't mean much if his/her faith is dead.

                  I ask myself, and others in the RPNA when I was with them, what ever
                  happened to the children of Steele, Lusk, and the other "Steelite"
                  Covenanters? ?? Where did they end up and why?

                  As for this person referred to, all I can say is:

                  There go I, but for grace...

                  Edgar




                • Deejay
                  Glenn: I think anyone with Murray s high profile in the Reformed Faith, who writes a pamphlet and get is published, especially by someone like Banner of
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 27, 2008
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                    Glenn:

                     

                    I think anyone with Murray’s high profile in the Reformed Faith, who writes a pamphlet and get is published,  especially by someone like Banner of Truth, by default becomes  one of the biggest opponents of the topic discussed. I doubt Banner of truth would have published it at all, if not for the credibility of the author. It’s the one publication,  almost everyone here  at this group, can call to mind, when thinking of articles or writings against it.  It’s not like Joe Blog standing up and saying he disagrees with EP.  Murray is high profile.

                     

                    I enjoy some of what Murray writes still. Of a historical nature. However I do have problems with Murray on a number of points,  even in those writings,  that are unbecoming.  I am not alone in this view of his writings either.  But,  I won’t post my issues with him publically.   I certainly wouldn’t read anything theological of his, for sure.  But historical writings I will and do, with caution.

                     

                    I am enjoying Malcom Watt’s able response to that pamphlet.

                     

                    As for Simon,  it seems, I got the wrong Church ole boy!! You can count on me to misremember things!   But the point still stands even so.   Change of Church, change of values.

                     

                    ~Deejay

                     

                    From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Ferrell
                    Sent: 27 March 2008 17:27
                    To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?

                     

                    Deejay:
                     
                    Though Murray's pamphlet on Psalmody is wrong on a number of points, and is well answered by Malcolm Watt's response, I would not call him "one of EP's biggest opponents."  I'd guess he has held such views for a while, since his earlier association with Martin Lloyd-Jones.  He makes some arguments against EP; but I don't think of him an ardent anti-EP proponent. 
                     
                    I continue to appreciate much of what Iain Murray has written.  I was a little surprised that Banner of Truth published his anti EP pamphlet.
                     
                    Glenn

                    J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho    http://sovereignredeemer.org

                  • Glenn Ferrell
                    I didn t catch that first time around. Murray was certainly not an FP minister; I don t believe he has ever been a Free Church of Scotland minister either,
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 27, 2008
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                      I didn't catch that first time around.  Murray was certainly not an FP minister; I don't believe he has ever been a Free Church of Scotland minister either, though he was closely associated with some of the FCC men through Banner of Truth.  I'll stand corrected if someone has additional information.
                       
                      Glenn
                       

                      J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho    http://sovereignredeemer.org



                      To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                      From: simon_padbury@...
                      Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:54:06 +0000
                      Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Anybody know who this is?

                      --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, "Deejay" <deejay-
                      forums@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Iain Murray I guess would be a good example too. In that he was
                      once a
                      > minister for the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland,

                      Say whaaaaat?!

                      and deeply committed
                      > to EP. He then went to Australia and joined the Australian
                      Presbyterian
                      > Church, and is now one of EP's biggest opponents. Hence his
                      little booklet
                      > of some years ago "The Psalter, the only hymnal" where he attempted
                      to
                      > throw out the validity of Exclusive Psalmody. I'm not doubting his
                      > sincerity as a Christian, or as a Minster, but i it was sure a big
                      turn
                      > around from when he was still at the Free Presbyterian Church of
                      Scotland.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ~Deejay
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                      > [mailto:covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of
                      Deejay
                      > Sent: 26 March 2008 01:32
                      > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                      > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Edgar,
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > yes of course. That was my point really. That when one can be in
                      the most
                      > soundest Church and STILL commit apostasy, then exposing ourselves
                      to
                      > error, doesn't seem like the wisest choice as far as caring for
                      our own
                      > souls, as much as is up to us.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Amen to your last line.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ~Deejay
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > From: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                      > [mailto:covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com] On Behalf Of Ic
                      > Neltococayotl
                      > Sent: 26 March 2008 00:06
                      > To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                      > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Deejay,
                      >
                      > Apostasy goes both ways. One can be in the most soundest church and
                      > still commit apostosy from the Truth. Just because one has his/hers
                      > doctrinal ducks in a row doesn't mean much if his/her faith is dead.
                      >
                      > I ask myself, and others in the RPNA when I was with them, what ever
                      > happened to the children of Steele, Lusk, and the other "Steelite"
                      > Covenanters? ?? Where did they end up and why?
                      >
                      > As for this person referred to, all I can say is:
                      >
                      > There go I, but for grace...
                      >
                      > Edgar
                      >


                    • Deejay
                      Quote: There are several things somewhat surprising about this work. first of all, there is the author himself. In 1972 Mr. Murray was admitted as an ordained
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 27, 2008
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                        Quote:

                         

                        There are several things somewhat surprising about this work. first of all, there is the author himself. In 1972 Mr. Murray was admitted as an ordained minister of the Free Church of Scotland and he served that church as a minster without charge until 1981 (when he left Scotland for Australia and joined the Australian Presbyterian Church.) The formula of Subscription required of all office-bearers in the Free Church reads as follows: “I ____ do here by declare that I do sincerely own... the purity  of worship presently authorized and practiced in the Free Church of Scotland.” In accord with Act V 1932, ‘Purity of Worship” is defined and explained at Ordinations and inductions in the following  way. “It is the present practice of the Free Church to avoid use in public worship of uninspired materials of praise as also instrumental music.” It is true of course, that Mr Murray is no longer a minister in that particular church. However it is still strange that he can be so critical of the position which he once swore to maintain.  {Malcom Watts “God’s hymnbook for the Christian church—James Begg society Page  5)

                         

                        From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Ferrell
                        Sent: 27 March 2008 17:48
                        To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Anybody know who this is?

                         

                        I didn't catch that first time around.  Murray was certainly not an FP minister; I don't believe he has ever been a Free Church of Scotland minister either, though he was closely associated with some of the FCC men through Banner of Truth.  I'll stand corrected if someone has additional information.
                         
                        Glenn
                         

                        J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho    http://sovereignredeemer.org


                        To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                        From: simon_padbury@...
                        Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:54:06 +0000
                        Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Anybody know who this is?

                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Deejay" <deejay-
                        forums@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Iain Murray I guess would be a good example too. In that he was
                        once a
                        > minister for the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland,

                        Say whaaaaat?!

                        and deeply committed
                        > to EP. He then went to Australia and joined the Australian
                        Presbyterian
                        > Church, and is now one of EP's biggest opponents. Hence his
                        little booklet
                        > of some years ago "The Psalter, the only hymnal" where he attempted
                        to
                        > throw out the validity of Exclusive Psalmody. I'm not doubting his
                        > sincerity as a Christian, or as a Minster, but i it was sure a big
                        turn
                        > around from when he was still at the Free Presbyterian Church of
                        Scotland.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ~Deejay
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                        Deejay
                        > Sent: 26 March 2008 01:32
                        > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Edgar,
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > yes of course. That was my point really. That when one can be in
                        the most
                        > soundest Church and STILL commit apostasy, then exposing ourselves
                        to
                        > error, doesn't seem like the wisest choice as far as caring for
                        our own
                        > souls, as much as is up to us.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Amen to your last line.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ~Deejay
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ic
                        > Neltococayotl
                        > Sent: 26 March 2008 00:06
                        > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Deejay,
                        >
                        > Apostasy goes both ways. One can be in the most soundest church and
                        > still commit apostosy from the Truth. Just because one has his/hers
                        > doctrinal ducks in a row doesn't mean much if his/her faith is dead.
                        >
                        > I ask myself, and others in the RPNA when I was with them, what ever
                        > happened to the children of Steele, Lusk, and the other "Steelite"
                        > Covenanters??? Where did they end up and why?
                        >
                        > As for this person referred to, all I can say is:
                        >
                        > There go I, but for grace...
                        >
                        > Edgar
                        >

                      • ghowmil
                        FYI, My second essay on EP and Westminster Confession subscription is now available at www.covenantedreformation.com Gary ... of all, ... ordained ... as a ...
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 27, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          FYI, My second essay on EP and Westminster Confession subscription is
                          now available at www.covenantedreformation.com

                          Gary


                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Deejay" <deejay-
                          forums@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Quote:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > There are several things somewhat surprising about this work. first
                          of all,
                          > there is the author himself. In 1972 Mr. Murray was admitted as an
                          ordained
                          > minister of the Free Church of Scotland and he served that church
                          as a
                          > minster without charge until 1981 (when he left Scotland for
                          Australia and
                          > joined the Australian Presbyterian Church.) The formula of
                          Subscription
                          > required of all office-bearers in the Free Church reads as follows:
                          "I ____
                          > do here by declare that I do sincerely own... the purity of worship
                          > presently authorized and practiced in the Free Church of Scotland."
                          In
                          > accord with Act V 1932, 'Purity of Worship" is defined and
                          explained at
                          > Ordinations and inductions in the following way. "It is the present
                          > practice of the Free Church to avoid use in public worship of
                          uninspired
                          > materials of praise as also instrumental music." It is true of
                          course, that
                          > Mr Murray is no longer a minister in that particular church.
                          However it is
                          > still strange that he can be so critical of the position which he
                          once swore
                          > to maintain. {Malcom Watts "God's hymnbook for the Christian
                          church-James
                          > Begg society Page 5)
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                          > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          Glenn
                          > Ferrell
                          > Sent: 27 March 2008 17:48
                          > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Anybody know who this is?
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > I didn't catch that first time around. Murray was certainly not an
                          FP
                          > minister; I don't believe he has ever been a Free Church of Scotland
                          > minister either, though he was closely associated with some of the
                          FCC men
                          > through Banner of Truth. I'll stand corrected if someone has
                          additional
                          > information.
                          >
                          > Glenn
                          >
                          >
                          > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
                          Boise,
                          > Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > _____
                          >
                          > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                          > From: simon_padbury@...
                          > Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 16:54:06 +0000
                          > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Anybody know who this is?
                          >
                          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Deejay" <deejay-
                          > forums@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Iain Murray I guess would be a good example too. In that he was
                          > once a
                          > > minister for the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland,
                          >
                          > Say whaaaaat?!
                          >
                          > and deeply committed
                          > > to EP. He then went to Australia and joined the Australian
                          > Presbyterian
                          > > Church, and is now one of EP's biggest opponents. Hence his
                          > little booklet
                          > > of some years ago "The Psalter, the only hymnal" where he
                          attempted
                          > to
                          > > throw out the validity of Exclusive Psalmody. I'm not doubting his
                          > > sincerity as a Christian, or as a Minster, but i it was sure a
                          big
                          > turn
                          > > around from when he was still at the Free Presbyterian Church of
                          > Scotland.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ~Deejay
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                          > > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                          > Deejay
                          > > Sent: 26 March 2008 01:32
                          > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Edgar,
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > yes of course. That was my point really. That when one can be in
                          > the most
                          > > soundest Church and STILL commit apostasy, then exposing
                          ourselves
                          > to
                          > > error, doesn't seem like the wisest choice as far as caring for
                          > our own
                          > > souls, as much as is up to us.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Amen to your last line.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ~Deejay
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                          > > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Ic
                          > > Neltococayotl
                          > > Sent: 26 March 2008 00:06
                          > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                          > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Deejay,
                          > >
                          > > Apostasy goes both ways. One can be in the most soundest church
                          and
                          > > still commit apostosy from the Truth. Just because one has his/
                          hers
                          > > doctrinal ducks in a row doesn't mean much if his/her faith is
                          dead.
                          > >
                          > > I ask myself, and others in the RPNA when I was with them, what
                          ever
                          > > happened to the children of Steele, Lusk, and the other "Steelite"
                          > > Covenanters??? Where did they end up and why?
                          > >
                          > > As for this person referred to, all I can say is:
                          > >
                          > > There go I, but for grace...
                          > >
                          > > Edgar
                          > >
                          >
                        • s_mcclintock1
                          Chris, is it you?
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 27, 2008
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                            Chris, is it you?

                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jerry
                            <ragingcalvinist@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Chris Tyler?
                            >
                            > gmw.
                            >
                          • forisraelssake
                            ... Yup, c est moi, Sheryllyn. Chris
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 27, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, s_mcclintock1
                              <no_reply@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Chris, is it you?
                              >
                              >

                              Yup, c'est moi, Sheryllyn.

                              Chris
                            • Glenn Ferrell
                              Deejay: I agree Murray s notoriety and visibility give the opponents of EP some ammunition. I’ve heard of non-EP proponents giving people Murray’s booklet
                              Message 14 of 23 , Mar 28, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Deejay:
                                 
                                I agree Murray's notoriety and visibility give the opponents of EP some ammunition. I’ve heard of non-EP proponents giving people Murray’s booklet as their argument against the practice. Apparently, its contents embodies their objections and arguments.
                                 
                                My objection is to labeling him as "one of EP’s biggest opponents." This implies he has headed an all out assault on EP. In fact, he presents arguments against EP- all of which are effectively answered by Malcolm Watts- demonstrating the array of such. This might even be helpful in that it provides us with details of our opponents position, to which we may formulate a response, as Mr. Watts did. I found reading Murray’s booklet helpful as I thought through the issue and arrived at the opposite conclusion.
                                 
                                It is too bad that a former FCoS minister should advance the anti-EP cause. However, there are other’s who deserve the label "biggest opponent" more than he. Also, his non-EP position does not negate his other theological opinions. Like his former associate Martin Lloyd-Jones, being wrong on EP does not negate his correct theology on a number of other matters. All theology must be measured by Scripture and the confessions.
                                 
                                Glenn


                                J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho    http://sovereignredeemer.org



                                To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                From: deejay-forums@...
                                Date: Thu, 27 Mar 2008 17:44:20 +0000
                                Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Iain Murray, (was) Anybody know who this is?

                                Glenn:

                                 

                                I think anyone with Murray’s high profile in the Reformed Faith, who writes a pamphlet and get is published,  especially by someone like Banner of Truth, by default becomes  one of the biggest opponents of the topic discussed. I doubt Banner of truth would have published it at all, if not for the credibility of the author. It’s the one publication,  almost everyone here  at this group, can call to mind, when thinking of articles or writings against it.  It’s not like Joe Blog standing up and saying he disagrees with EP.  Murray is high profile.

                                 

                                I enjoy some of what Murray writes still. Of a historical nature. However I do have problems with Murray on a number of points,  even in those writings,  that are unbecoming.  I am not alone in this view of his writings either.  But,  I won’t post my issues with him publically.   I certainly wouldn’t read anything theological of his, for sure.  But historical writings I will and do, with caution.

                                 

                                I am enjoying Malcom Watt’s able response to that pamphlet.

                                 

                                As for Simon,  it seems, I got the wrong Church ole boy!! You can count on me to misremember things!   But the point still stands even so.   Change of Church, change of values.

                                 

                                ~Deejay

                                 

                                From: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:covenantedr eformationclub@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of Glenn Ferrell
                                Sent: 27 March 2008 17:27
                                To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
                                Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Anybody know who this is?

                                 

                                Deejay:
                                 
                                Though Murray's pamphlet on Psalmody is wrong on a number of points, and is well answered by Malcolm Watt's response, I would not call him "one of EP's biggest opponents."  I'd guess he has held such views for a while, since his earlier association with Martin Lloyd-Jones.  He makes some arguments against EP; but I don't think of him an ardent anti-EP proponent. 
                                 
                                I continue to appreciate much of what Iain Murray has written.  I was a little surprised that Banner of Truth published his anti EP pamphlet.
                                 
                                Glenn

                                J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho    http://sovereignred eemer.org



                              • Deejay
                                We shall have to agree to disagree over Iain Murray, Glenn. As noted previously, I have a number of other issues with his writings-- non-EP related. God
                                Message 15 of 23 , Mar 28, 2008
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                                  We shall have to agree to disagree over Iain Murray, Glenn.  As noted previously, I have a number of other  issues with his writings-- non-EP related.  God uses evil for good in many instances, that doesn’t make it right though.

                                   

                                  I found his pamphlet decidedly unscholarly,  and that is surprising too, from a  former minister of the FCoS.

                                                                

                                  ~Deejay

                                   

                                  Gal 2:18 "For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor"

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                   

                                  From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Ferrell
                                  Sent: 28 March 2008 16:28
                                  To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Iain Murray, (was) Anybody know who this is?

                                   

                                  Deejay:
                                   
                                  I agree Murray's notoriety and visibility give the opponents of EP some ammunition. I’ve heard of non-EP proponents giving people Murray’s booklet as their argument against the practice. Apparently, its contents embodies their objections and arguments.
                                   
                                  My objection is to labeling him as "one of EP’s biggest opponents." This implies he has headed an all out assault on EP. In fact, he presents arguments against EP- all of which are effectively answered by Malcolm Watts- demonstrating the array of such. This might even be helpful in that it provides us with details of our opponents position, to which we may formulate a response, as Mr. Watts did. I found reading Murray’s booklet helpful as I thought through the issue and arrived at the opposite conclusion.
                                   
                                  It is too bad that a former FCoS minister should advance the anti-EP cause. However, there are other’s who deserve the label "biggest opponent" more than he. Also, his non-EP position does not negate his other theological opinions. Like his former associate Martin Lloyd-Jones, being wrong on EP does not negate his correct theology on a number of other matters. All theology must be measured by Scripture and the confessions.
                                   
                                  Glenn


                                  J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho    http://sovereignredeemer.org

                                   

                                • bob_suden
                                  Hi Glenn, ... more than he. Who would that be? Bob ... some ammunition. I ve heard of non-EP proponents giving people Murray s booklet as their argument
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Mar 29, 2008
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Glenn,

                                    >However, there are other's who deserve the label "biggest opponent"
                                    more than he.

                                    Who would that be?

                                    Bob

                                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell
                                    <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Deejay:
                                    >
                                    > I agree Murray's notoriety and visibility give the opponents of EP
                                    some ammunition. I've heard of non-EP proponents giving people
                                    Murray's booklet as their argument against the practice. Apparently,
                                    its contents embodies their objections and arguments.
                                    >
                                    > My objection is to labeling him as "one of EP's biggest opponents."
                                    This implies he has headed an all out assault on EP. In fact, he
                                    presents arguments against EP- all of which are effectively answered
                                    by Malcolm Watts- demonstrating the array of such. This might even be
                                    helpful in that it provides us with details of our opponents position,
                                    to which we may formulate a response, as Mr. Watts did. I found
                                    reading Murray's booklet helpful as I thought through the issue and
                                    arrived at the opposite conclusion.
                                    >
                                    > It is too bad that a former FCoS minister should advance the anti-EP
                                    cause. However, there are other's who deserve the label "biggest
                                    opponent" more than he. Also, his non-EP position does not negate his
                                    other theological opinions. Like his former associate Martin
                                    Lloyd-Jones, being wrong on EP does not negate his correct theology on
                                    a number of other matters. All theology must be measured by Scripture
                                    and the confessions.
                                    >
                                    > Glenn
                                    > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
                                    Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org
                                    >
                                  • Glenn Ferrell
                                    Historically speaking, Isaac Watts did more to undermine EP than most. In recent years, I think of Steve Schlissel, James Jordan, and John Frame for a few,
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Mar 29, 2008
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Historically speaking, Isaac Watts did more to undermine EP than most.  In recent years, I think of Steve Schlissel, James Jordan, and John Frame for a few, who undermine non only EP but the RPW, as greater opponents than Iain Murray.  
                                       
                                      Glenn

                                      J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho    http://sovereignredeemer.org



                                      To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                      From: bsuden@...
                                      Date: Sun, 30 Mar 2008 04:14:55 +0000
                                      Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Iain Murray, (was) Anybody know who this is?

                                      Hi Glenn,

                                      >However, there are other's who deserve the label "biggest opponent"
                                      more than he.

                                      Who would that be?

                                      Bob

                                      --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Glenn Ferrell
                                      <jglennferrell@ ...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Deejay:
                                      >
                                      > I agree Murray's notoriety and visibility give the opponents of EP
                                      some ammunition. I've heard of non-EP proponents giving people
                                      Murray's booklet as their argument against the practice. Apparently,
                                      its contents embodies their objections and arguments.
                                      >
                                      > My objection is to labeling him as "one of EP's biggest opponents."
                                      This implies he has headed an all out assault on EP. In fact, he
                                      presents arguments against EP- all of which are effectively answered
                                      by Malcolm Watts- demonstrating the array of such. This might even be
                                      helpful in that it provides us with details of our opponents position,
                                      to which we may formulate a response, as Mr. Watts did. I found
                                      reading Murray's booklet helpful as I thought through the issue and
                                      arrived at the opposite conclusion.
                                      >
                                      > It is too bad that a former FCoS minister should advance the anti-EP
                                      cause. However, there are other's who deserve the label "biggest
                                      opponent" more than he. Also, his non-EP position does not negate his
                                      other theological opinions. Like his former associate Martin
                                      Lloyd-Jones, being wrong on EP does not negate his correct theology on
                                      a number of other matters. All theology must be measured by Scripture
                                      and the confessions.
                                      >
                                      > Glenn
                                      > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
                                      Boise, Idaho http://sovereignred eemer.org
                                      >


                                    • s_mcclintock1
                                      Chris, have you rejected Christ and His truth?
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Mar 30, 2008
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                                        Chris, have you rejected Christ and His truth?



                                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "forisraelssake"
                                        <c_tylor@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, s_mcclintock1
                                        > <no_reply@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Chris, is it you?
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        > Yup, c'est moi, Sheryllyn.
                                        >
                                        > Chris
                                        >
                                      • bob_suden
                                        Dear Glenn, Thank you for explaining your remark. I would agree, but also note that Isaac is long dead and only Frame has anywhere near the influence or clout
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Mar 30, 2008
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear Glenn,

                                          Thank you for explaining your remark.
                                          I would agree, but also note that Isaac is long dead and only Frame
                                          has anywhere near the influence or clout of Murray among the serious
                                          presbyterian and reformed, as opposed to the broadly reformed (BRs).
                                          The Banner of Truth/Murray is seen as the last word on Puritan piety
                                          (as well that the SL&C/2nd Reformation has been pretty much ignored
                                          because BoT ignores it.) IMO Schlissel and Jordan are pretty much
                                          seen as nutcakes and marginal by the conservative confessional "truly
                                          reformed (TRs)" in the PCA or OPC. In other words, when a guy like
                                          Murray signs on or finally speaks up about it, that carries some real
                                          weight, like it or not.
                                          I thought Watts was a little overdone as a response to Murray and
                                          still prefer Hugh Cartwright's shorter answer.
                                          Unfortunately Bushell's Songs of Zion is out of print again according
                                          to the Crown & Covenant website.(It still might be available from SWRB
                                          through its Sermonaudio page.) It is still the real answer to Watts
                                          and the rest of the bunch.
                                          Thanks again,
                                          Bob S

                                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell
                                          <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Historically speaking, Isaac Watts did more to undermine EP than
                                          most. In recent years, I think of Steve Schlissel, James Jordan, and
                                          John Frame for a few, who undermine non only EP but the RPW, as
                                          greater opponents than Iain Murray.
                                          >
                                          > GlennJ. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian
                                          Church, Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > To: covenantedreformationclub@...: bsuden@...: Sun, 30 Mar 2008
                                          04:14:55 +0000Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Iain Murray, (was)
                                          Anybody know who this is?
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Hi Glenn,>However, there are other's who deserve the label "biggest
                                          opponent"more than he.Who would that be? Bob --- In
                                          covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Glenn
                                          Ferrell<jglennferrell@> wrote:>> Deejay:> > I agree Murray's notoriety
                                          and visibility give the opponents of EPsome ammunition. I've heard of
                                          non-EP proponents giving peopleMurray's booklet as their argument
                                          against the practice. Apparently,its contents embodies their
                                          objections and arguments. > > My objection is to labeling him as "one
                                          of EP's biggest opponents."This implies he has headed an all out
                                          assault on EP. In fact, hepresents arguments against EP- all of which
                                          are effectively answeredby Malcolm Watts- demonstrating the array of
                                          such. This might even behelpful in that it provides us with details of
                                          our opponents position,to which we may formulate a response, as Mr.
                                          Watts did. I foundreading Murray's booklet helpful as I thought
                                          through the issue andarrived at the opposite conclusion.> > It is too
                                          bad that a former FCoS minister should advance the anti-EPcause.
                                          However, there are other's who deserve the label "biggestopponent"
                                          more than he. Also, his non-EP position does not negate hisother
                                          theological opinions. Like his former associate MartinLloyd-Jones,
                                          being wrong on EP does not negate his correct theology ona number of
                                          other matters. All theology must be measured by Scriptureand the
                                          confessions.> > Glenn> J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer
                                          Presbyterian Church,Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org>
                                          >
                                        • Glenn Ferrell
                                          Bob: Biggest opponent is a subjective judgment and I don t have any objections to your analysis. Murray s booklet was a disappointment. I appreciated Watts
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Mar 30, 2008
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                                            Bob:
                                             
                                            "Biggest opponent" is a subjective judgment and I don't have any objections to your analysis.  Murray's booklet was a disappointment.  I appreciated Watts response, as I was working though these issues for myself when I read them three or four years ago.
                                             
                                            Sometimes anti-EP statements have the opposite effect.  The most convincing thing I ever read, which caused me to embrace the EP position, was the majority OPC report.  The majority report was pro-hymnody.  However, it convinced me of Exclusive Psalmody because of its failure to prove its case.
                                             
                                            May Murray's booklet have a similar effect.
                                             
                                            Glenn

                                            J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho    http://sovereignredeemer.org



                                            To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                            From: bsuden@...
                                            Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 00:41:48 +0000
                                            Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Iain Murray, (was) Anybody know who this is?

                                            Dear Glenn,

                                            Thank you for explaining your remark.
                                            I would agree, but also note that Isaac is long dead and only Frame
                                            has anywhere near the influence or clout of Murray among the serious
                                            presbyterian and reformed, as opposed to the broadly reformed (BRs).
                                            The Banner of Truth/Murray is seen as the last word on Puritan piety
                                            (as well that the SL&C/2nd Reformation has been pretty much ignored
                                            because BoT ignores it.) IMO Schlissel and Jordan are pretty much
                                            seen as nutcakes and marginal by the conservative confessional "truly
                                            reformed (TRs)" in the PCA or OPC. In other words, when a guy like
                                            Murray signs on or finally speaks up about it, that carries some real
                                            weight, like it or not.
                                            I thought Watts was a little overdone as a response to Murray and
                                            still prefer Hugh Cartwright's shorter answer.
                                            Unfortunately Bushell's Songs of Zion is out of print again according
                                            to the Crown & Covenant website.(It still might be available from SWRB
                                            through its Sermonaudio page.) It is still the real answer to Watts
                                            and the rest of the bunch.
                                            Thanks again,
                                            Bob S

                                            --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Glenn Ferrell
                                            <jglennferrell@ ...> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Historically speaking, Isaac Watts did more to undermine EP than
                                            most. In recent years, I think of Steve Schlissel, James Jordan, and
                                            John Frame for a few, who undermine non only EP but the RPW, as
                                            greater opponents than Iain Murray.
                                            >
                                            > GlennJ. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian
                                            Church, Boise, Idaho http://sovereignred eemer.org
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > To: covenantedreformati onclub@.. .: bsuden@...: Sun, 30 Mar 2008
                                            04:14:55 +0000Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Iain Murray, (was)
                                            Anybody know who this is?
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > Hi Glenn,>However, there are other's who deserve the label "biggest
                                            opponent"more than he.Who would that be? Bob --- In
                                            covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Glenn
                                            Ferrell<jglennferre ll@> wrote:>> Deejay:> > I agree Murray's notoriety
                                            and visibility give the opponents of EPsome ammunition. I've heard of
                                            non-EP proponents giving peopleMurray' s booklet as their argument
                                            against the practice. Apparently,its contents embodies their
                                            objections and arguments. > > My objection is to labeling him as "one
                                            of EP's biggest opponents."This implies he has headed an all out
                                            assault on EP. In fact, hepresents arguments against EP- all of which
                                            are effectively answeredby Malcolm Watts- demonstrating the array of
                                            such. This might even behelpful in that it provides us with details of
                                            our opponents position,to which we may formulate a response, as Mr.
                                            Watts did. I foundreading Murray's booklet helpful as I thought
                                            through the issue andarrived at the opposite conclusion.> > It is too
                                            bad that a former FCoS minister should advance the anti-EPcause.
                                            However, there are other's who deserve the label "biggestopponent"
                                            more than he. Also, his non-EP position does not negate hisother
                                            theological opinions. Like his former associate MartinLloyd- Jones,
                                            being wrong on EP does not negate his correct theology ona number of
                                            other matters. All theology must be measured by Scriptureand the
                                            confessions. > > Glenn> J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer
                                            Presbyterian Church,Boise, Idaho http://sovereignred eemer.org>
                                            >


                                          • simon_padbury
                                            There s this response to I.Murray too, which is shorter than M.Watts. It s been around longer than the longest, I think, but hasn t been noticed very much. My
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Mar 31, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              There's this response to I.Murray too, which is shorter than M.Watts.
                                              It's been around longer than the longest, I think, but hasn't been
                                              noticed very much. My pastor wrote it back in 2001.

                                              http://www.truthzone.co.uk/WHCpsalmsIHM.htm

                                              Simon Padbury


                                              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                                              <bsuden@...> wrote:
                                              >
                                              > Dear Glenn,
                                              >
                                              > Thank you for explaining your remark.
                                              > I would agree, but also note that Isaac is long dead and only Frame
                                              > has anywhere near the influence or clout of Murray among the serious
                                              > presbyterian and reformed, as opposed to the broadly reformed
                                              (BRs).
                                              > The Banner of Truth/Murray is seen as the last word on Puritan
                                              piety
                                              > (as well that the SL&C/2nd Reformation has been pretty much ignored
                                              > because BoT ignores it.) IMO Schlissel and Jordan are pretty much
                                              > seen as nutcakes and marginal by the conservative
                                              confessional "truly
                                              > reformed (TRs)" in the PCA or OPC. In other words, when a guy like
                                              > Murray signs on or finally speaks up about it, that carries some
                                              real
                                              > weight, like it or not.
                                              > I thought Watts was a little overdone as a response to Murray and
                                              > still prefer Hugh Cartwright's shorter answer.
                                              > Unfortunately Bushell's Songs of Zion is out of print again
                                              according
                                              > to the Crown & Covenant website.(It still might be available from
                                              SWRB
                                              > through its Sermonaudio page.) It is still the real answer to Watts
                                              > and the rest of the bunch.
                                              > Thanks again,
                                              > Bob S
                                              >
                                              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Glenn Ferrell
                                              > <jglennferrell@> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > Historically speaking, Isaac Watts did more to undermine EP than
                                              > most. In recent years, I think of Steve Schlissel, James Jordan,
                                              and
                                              > John Frame for a few, who undermine non only EP but the RPW, as
                                              > greater opponents than Iain Murray.
                                              > >
                                              > > GlennJ. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian
                                              > Church, Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > To: covenantedreformationclub@: bsuden@: Sun, 30 Mar 2008
                                              > 04:14:55 +0000Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Iain Murray,
                                              (was)
                                              > Anybody know who this is?
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > Hi Glenn,>However, there are other's who deserve the
                                              label "biggest
                                              > opponent"more than he.Who would that be? Bob --- In
                                              > covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Glenn
                                              > Ferrell<jglennferrell@> wrote:>> Deejay:> > I agree Murray's
                                              notoriety
                                              > and visibility give the opponents of EPsome ammunition. I've heard
                                              of
                                              > non-EP proponents giving peopleMurray's booklet as their argument
                                              > against the practice. Apparently,its contents embodies their
                                              > objections and arguments. > > My objection is to labeling him
                                              as "one
                                              > of EP's biggest opponents."This implies he has headed an all out
                                              > assault on EP. In fact, hepresents arguments against EP- all of
                                              which
                                              > are effectively answeredby Malcolm Watts- demonstrating the array of
                                              > such. This might even behelpful in that it provides us with details
                                              of
                                              > our opponents position,to which we may formulate a response, as Mr.
                                              > Watts did. I foundreading Murray's booklet helpful as I thought
                                              > through the issue andarrived at the opposite conclusion.> > It is
                                              too
                                              > bad that a former FCoS minister should advance the anti-EPcause.
                                              > However, there are other's who deserve the label "biggestopponent"
                                              > more than he. Also, his non-EP position does not negate hisother
                                              > theological opinions. Like his former associate MartinLloyd-Jones,
                                              > being wrong on EP does not negate his correct theology ona number of
                                              > other matters. All theology must be measured by Scriptureand the
                                              > confessions.> > Glenn> J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer
                                              > Presbyterian Church,Boise, Idaho http://sovereignredeemer.org>
                                              > >
                                              >
                                            • Glenn Ferrell
                                              Simon: Thanks for sending your pastor s response to Murray. Glenn J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Mar 31, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                Simon:
                                                 
                                                Thanks for sending your pastor's response to Murray.
                                                 
                                                Glenn


                                                J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise, Idaho    http://sovereignredeemer.org



                                                To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                From: simon_padbury@...
                                                Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2008 11:46:21 +0000
                                                Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Iain Murray, (was) Anybody know who this is?

                                                There's this response to I.Murray too, which is shorter than M.Watts.
                                                It's been around longer than the longest, I think, but hasn't been
                                                noticed very much. My pastor wrote it back in 2001.

                                                http://www.truthzon e.co.uk/WHCpsalm sIHM.htm

                                                Simon Padbury

                                                --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, "bob_suden"
                                                <bsuden@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Dear Glenn,
                                                >
                                                > Thank you for explaining your remark.
                                                > I would agree, but also note that Isaac is long dead and only Frame
                                                > has anywhere near the influence or clout of Murray among the serious
                                                > presbyterian and reformed, as opposed to the broadly reformed
                                                (BRs).
                                                > The Banner of Truth/Murray is seen as the last word on Puritan
                                                piety
                                                > (as well that the SL&C/2nd Reformation has been pretty much ignored
                                                > because BoT ignores it.) IMO Schlissel and Jordan are pretty much
                                                > seen as nutcakes and marginal by the conservative
                                                confessional "truly
                                                > reformed (TRs)" in the PCA or OPC. In other words, when a guy like
                                                > Murray signs on or finally speaks up about it, that carries some
                                                real
                                                > weight, like it or not.
                                                > I thought Watts was a little overdone as a response to Murray and
                                                > still prefer Hugh Cartwright's shorter answer.
                                                > Unfortunately Bushell's Songs of Zion is out of print again
                                                according
                                                > to the Crown & Covenant website.(It still might be available from
                                                SWRB
                                                > through its Sermonaudio page.) It is still the real answer to Watts
                                                > and the rest of the bunch.
                                                > Thanks again,
                                                > Bob S
                                                >
                                                > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Glenn Ferrell
                                                > <jglennferrell@ > wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > Historically speaking, Isaac Watts did more to undermine EP than
                                                > most. In recent years, I think of Steve Schlissel, James Jordan,
                                                and
                                                > John Frame for a few, who undermine non only EP but the RPW, as
                                                > greater opponents than Iain Murray.
                                                > >
                                                > > GlennJ. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian
                                                > Church, Boise, Idaho http://sovereignred eemer.org
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > To: covenantedreformati onclub@: bsuden@: Sun, 30 Mar 2008
                                                > 04:14:55 +0000Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Iain Murray,
                                                (was)
                                                > Anybody know who this is?
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > Hi Glenn,>However, there are other's who deserve the
                                                label "biggest
                                                > opponent"more than he.Who would that be? Bob --- In
                                                > covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Glenn
                                                > Ferrell<jglennferre ll@> wrote:>> Deejay:> > I agree Murray's
                                                notoriety
                                                > and visibility give the opponents of EPsome ammunition. I've heard
                                                of
                                                > non-EP proponents giving peopleMurray' s booklet as their argument
                                                > against the practice. Apparently,its contents embodies their
                                                > objections and arguments. > > My objection is to labeling him
                                                as "one
                                                > of EP's biggest opponents."This implies he has headed an all out
                                                > assault on EP. In fact, hepresents arguments against EP- all of
                                                which
                                                > are effectively answeredby Malcolm Watts- demonstrating the array of
                                                > such. This might even behelpful in that it provides us with details
                                                of
                                                > our opponents position,to which we may formulate a response, as Mr.
                                                > Watts did. I foundreading Murray's booklet helpful as I thought
                                                > through the issue andarrived at the opposite conclusion.> > It is
                                                too
                                                > bad that a former FCoS minister should advance the anti-EPcause.
                                                > However, there are other's who deserve the label "biggestopponent"
                                                > more than he. Also, his non-EP position does not negate hisother
                                                > theological opinions. Like his former associate MartinLloyd- Jones,
                                                > being wrong on EP does not negate his correct theology ona number of
                                                > other matters. All theology must be measured by Scriptureand the
                                                > confessions. > > Glenn> J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer
                                                > Presbyterian Church,Boise, Idaho http://sovereignred eemer.org>
                                                > >
                                                >


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