Re: Greg Price...
> Chris TYlor said, "and I believe they should be censured,censure
> deposed from their positions, rejected and avoided because of their
> scandalous and disorderly rule".
> This is the problem with these independents; there are no courts of the
> church higher than their own teleconferences. If they were Presbyterian,
> there would be a sense of checks and balances. There is no one to
> Independents though.model is for
> The only way to get tyrants out of office in their Independents
> the people to vote them out- of course if any of the people had even onethemselves out
> question, they would have them sign 'the oath'; thus voting
> of the visible church.was like
> Remember when people questioned Jesus about what the kingdom of God
> and he charged them with conspiracy and damned them to hell on thespot...
> oh wait.... yeah.... he answered there questions.... bad example.Unfortunately Nathan, you're right, due to their mixed up,
> Nathan Eshelmn
Prelatic/Presbyterian/Brownist system which escapes any checks and
balances and always gets them off the hook in the event of offense
because they are judge, jury and executioner. The Independents had the
defense of putting excommunication in the power of the church and not
in the elders and not making secondaries terms of communion, but in
the RPNA it is the worst of all possible situations--no appeal,
excommunication by the elders for any disagreement on secondary
matters, a rapidly growing list of court rulings and decisions in
secondary matters by the elders, and ordination and deposition is
imagined by the elders and members to be in the power of the three
elders alone, so that they themselves are their only effective checks.
That they SHOULD be deposed I am sure of. That they CAN be by any
method internal to their 'system' that the members themselves would
accept is a different topic altogether--unfortunately.
- Dear Chris,I didn't speak to what is or isn't going on in their personal lives, but to your assertion of people basically have multiple spiritual personalities on an very extreme level. If the charges you allege have merit they are about as evil as one can be.John
forisraelssake <c_tylor@...> wrote:> Dear Chris,
> You seem to have created a paradox... You say one can be a decent
and respectable Christian man in their private character, yet at the
same time be tyrannical and extremely sinful in another setting.
Wouldn't it stand to(even biblical) reason that their tyrannical and
extremely sinful nature/habits would be all but impossible to contain
in just one realm of their lives? The bible tends to lean towards to
idea that one apple spoils the bunch, so why does God uphold these men
in "their private character" yet allows them to be tyrannical and
extremely sinful in another setting?
Perhaps not all is as rosy in their personal and familial lives as you
believe (I certainly know of grave concerns), and I never said they
were irreproachable in those spheres, only that there is common (and
one hopes, special) grace in all three of them and I mentioned good
points about two of them in particular.
Yet that doesn't change the fact that they need to be deposed and
withdrawn from because of their many many sins and offenses committed
against their flocks in their tenures as rulers over Christians.
To apply your own argument against you, are all the other elders in
the world besides these three men really that evil and corrupt as they
can be? But these three men call them unfaithful church officers
guilty of serious sins and say they should be withdrawn from. If they
are so unfaithful we need to separate from them, shouldn't they have
completely reprobate, debased lives? Doesn't that make sense according
to your argument? And yet what is the evidence? Aren't many if not
nearly all Reformed ministers godly and respectable men, many of whom
exceed the three men of the RPNA (so-called) eldership in personal
piety and private benevolence?
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MessageSir,And I say this politely, you would fit well in a prelatic church. The same Christ who called apostate Israel a church (Mat 23), excoriated the "ordained teachers"--Pharisees, scribes and priests as a generation of snakes. I dont need a church court to tell me, that only wicked men excommunicated widows. Moreover, yours is the attitude that I mostly meet with pious Roman Catholics who cannot be convinced despite sodomizine priests, and persecuting popes, that their church is a whore. Much stronger language is used by Covenanter writers. It does not matter what my experience has been, a godly presbyter does not soothe an adulterer and excommunicate a widow. Their works testify against them. But, not wishing to rehash the whole tedious situation over again I leave you with this...1 Cor 15:33...Evil companionship corrupts good morals. And my testimony has been that when you hang around unrepentant hypocrites, you start as a friend and end up as another sheep hung out to dry. THAT I do know from experience.Gus GianelloPS. HOw in the name of heaven, can a viable court pass judgement when they acknowledge NONE but their own?-----Original Message-----
From: firstname.lastname@example.org [mailto:email@example.com] On Behalf Of John Hackler
Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 02:29
Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Greg Price...Dear Gus Gianello,According to Mr. Taylor the men in question pass and fail all at the same time... An interesting concept to say the least.Given what you have posted I would say that some of your past dealings with church leadership comes into play in your judgment as well at best you judge according to your understanding of Scripture. In your opinion these men have failed, since no viable court as pass judgment.John
Gus Gianello <dr.gus.gianello@ rogers.com> wrote:Dear Mr. Taylor,did you ever notice that none of the apostles said to Judas, "gee, how come you did not have signs following your ministry?" (Mat. 10). The point being that we do not judge men according to appearance, but we judge them according to conformity to the Scriptures. This test, these three gentlemen have failed.Gus Gianello-----Original Message-----
From: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:covenantedr eformationclub@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of forisraelssake
Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 19:10
To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Greg Price...> John
> Why are you not currently reconciled to the church? You called
> yourself excommunicated; is that still the case?
> On a side note: I am sure that the Pharisees had credible character
> witnesses as well.
> Nathan Eshelman
> Never have been RPNA, but friends of Christians who have been handed
> to Satan.
I am not saying that the three 'elders' of the RPNA (GM) are not
decent and respectable Christian men in their private characters. I
can bear witness as well to good-natured friendliness and sacrificial
spirits of Greg Price and Lyndon Dohms. What I am saying is that they
are incompetent, tyrannical and extremely sinful **with respect to
their being overseers/elders* *, and I believe they should be censured,
deposed from their positions, rejected and avoided because of their
scandalous and disorderly rule, and sectarian and separatist and
schismatic ecclesiology. Hard words I know, but I saw with my own eyes
what happened and I myself fell as one of the latter day victims to
their phony pretended spiritual purges.
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- Gus Gianello <dr.gus.gianello@...> wrote:Sir,And I say this politely, you would fit well in a prelatic church. The same Christ who called apostate Israel a church (Mat 23), excoriated the "ordained teachers"--Pharisee s, scribes and priests as a generation of snakes.Last I checked Christ hasnt made such a declaration towards the RPNA (GM).I dont need a church court to tell me, that only wicked men excommunicated widows. Moreover, yours is the attitude that I mostly meet with pious Roman Catholics who cannot be convinced despite sodomizine priests, and persecuting popes, that their church is a whore.Of course the same baseless charge can be pointed right back at yourself since we dont agree on the matter and I can claim youre just as blind that you dont see my way. Btw Nice touch interjecting pedophile priests into the mixMuch stronger language is used by Covenanter writers. It does not matter what my experience has been, a godly presbyter does not soothe an adulterer and excommunicate a widow.I wasnt aware that a widow was above being excommunicate or that an adulterer was beyond redemption. I believe even the briefest excursion into Gods word would debunk your personal beliefs on these matters.Their works testify against them.In your opinionBut, not wishing to rehash the whole tedious situation over again I leave you with this...1 Cor 15:33...Evil companionship corrupts good morals. And my testimony has been that when you hang around unrepentant hypocrites, you start as a friend and end up as another sheep hung out to dry. THAT I do know from experience.Gus GianelloThe above could apply to whomever, even to those who were excommunicated, right? Of course as you stated, It does not matter what my experience has been.John Hackler Jr.
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