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Re: Greg Price...

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  • forisraelssake
    ... censure ... model is for ... themselves out ... was like ... spot... ... Unfortunately Nathan, you re right, due to their mixed up,
    Message 1 of 18 , Aug 12, 2007
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      > Chris TYlor said, "and I believe they should be censured,
      > deposed from their positions, rejected and avoided because of their
      > scandalous and disorderly rule".
      >
      > Chris
      >
      > This is the problem with these independents; there are no courts of the
      > church higher than their own teleconferences. If they were Presbyterian,
      > there would be a sense of checks and balances. There is no one to
      censure
      > Independents though.
      >
      > The only way to get tyrants out of office in their Independents
      model is for
      > the people to vote them out- of course if any of the people had even one
      > question, they would have them sign 'the oath'; thus voting
      themselves out
      > of the visible church.
      >
      > Remember when people questioned Jesus about what the kingdom of God
      was like
      > and he charged them with conspiracy and damned them to hell on the
      spot...
      > oh wait.... yeah.... he answered there questions.... bad example.
      >
      > Nathan Eshelmn
      >

      Unfortunately Nathan, you're right, due to their mixed up,
      Prelatic/Presbyterian/Brownist system which escapes any checks and
      balances and always gets them off the hook in the event of offense
      because they are judge, jury and executioner. The Independents had the
      defense of putting excommunication in the power of the church and not
      in the elders and not making secondaries terms of communion, but in
      the RPNA it is the worst of all possible situations--no appeal,
      excommunication by the elders for any disagreement on secondary
      matters, a rapidly growing list of court rulings and decisions in
      secondary matters by the elders, and ordination and deposition is
      imagined by the elders and members to be in the power of the three
      elders alone, so that they themselves are their only effective checks.
      That they SHOULD be deposed I am sure of. That they CAN be by any
      method internal to their 'system' that the members themselves would
      accept is a different topic altogether--unfortunately.

      Chris Tylor
    • John Hackler
      Dear Chris, I didn t speak to what is or isn t going on in their personal lives, but to your assertion of people basically have multiple spiritual
      Message 2 of 18 , Aug 12, 2007
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        Dear Chris,
         
        I didn't speak to what is or isn't going on in their personal lives, but to your assertion of people basically have multiple spiritual personalities on an very extreme level. If the charges you allege have merit they are about as evil as one can be.
         
        John
         
         

        forisraelssake <c_tylor@...> wrote:
        > Dear Chris,
        >
        > You seem to have created a paradox... You say one can be a decent
        and respectable Christian man in their private character, yet at the
        same time be tyrannical and extremely sinful in another setting.
        Wouldn't it stand to(even biblical) reason that their tyrannical and
        extremely sinful nature/habits would be all but impossible to contain
        in just one realm of their lives? The bible tends to lean towards to
        idea that one apple spoils the bunch, so why does God uphold these men
        in "their private character" yet allows them to be tyrannical and
        extremely sinful in another setting?
        >
        > John
        >

        Dear John

        Perhaps not all is as rosy in their personal and familial lives as you
        believe (I certainly know of grave concerns), and I never said they
        were irreproachable in those spheres, only that there is common (and
        one hopes, special) grace in all three of them and I mentioned good
        points about two of them in particular.

        Yet that doesn't change the fact that they need to be deposed and
        withdrawn from because of their many many sins and offenses committed
        against their flocks in their tenures as rulers over Christians.

        To apply your own argument against you, are all the other elders in
        the world besides these three men really that evil and corrupt as they
        can be? But these three men call them unfaithful church officers
        guilty of serious sins and say they should be withdrawn from. If they
        are so unfaithful we need to separate from them, shouldn't they have
        completely reprobate, debased lives? Doesn't that make sense according
        to your argument? And yet what is the evidence? Aren't many if not
        nearly all Reformed ministers godly and respectable men, many of whom
        exceed the three men of the RPNA (so-called) eldership in personal
        piety and private benevolence?

        Chris T.



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      • Gus Gianello
        Sir, And I say this politely, you would fit well in a prelatic church. The same Christ who called apostate Israel a church (Mat 23), excoriated the ordained
        Message 3 of 18 , Aug 12, 2007
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          Message
          Sir,
          And I say this politely, you would fit well in a prelatic church.  The same Christ who called apostate Israel a church (Mat 23), excoriated the "ordained teachers"--Pharisees, scribes and priests as a generation of snakes.  I dont need a church court to tell me, that only wicked men excommunicated widows.  Moreover, yours is the attitude that I mostly meet with pious Roman Catholics who cannot be convinced despite sodomizine priests, and persecuting popes, that their church is a whore.  Much stronger language is used by Covenanter writers.  It does not matter what my experience has been, a godly presbyter does not soothe an adulterer and excommunicate a widow.  Their works testify against them.  But, not wishing to rehash the whole tedious situation over again I leave you with this...
           
           
          1 Cor 15:33...Evil companionship corrupts good morals.  And my testimony has been that when you hang around unrepentant hypocrites, you start as a friend and end up as another sheep hung out to dry.  THAT I do know from experience.
           
          Gus Gianello
           
           
          PS.  HOw in the name of heaven, can a viable court pass judgement when they acknowledge NONE but their own?
          -----Original Message-----
          From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of John Hackler
          Sent: Sunday, August 12, 2007 02:29
          To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Greg Price...

          Dear Gus Gianello,
           
          According to Mr. Taylor the men in question pass and fail all at the same time... An interesting concept to say the least.
           
          Given what you have posted I would say that some of your past dealings with church leadership comes into play in your judgment as well at best you judge according to your understanding of Scripture. In your opinion these men have failed, since no viable court as pass judgment.
           
          John


          Gus Gianello <dr.gus.gianello@ rogers.com> wrote:
          Dear Mr. Taylor,
           
          did you ever notice that none of the apostles said to Judas, "gee, how come you did not have signs following your ministry?" (Mat. 10).  The point being that we do not judge men according to appearance, but we judge them according to conformity to the Scriptures.  This test, these three gentlemen have failed.
           
           
           
          Gus Gianello
          -----Original Message-----
          From: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com [mailto:covenantedr eformationclub@ yahoogroups. com] On Behalf Of forisraelssake
          Sent: Friday, August 10, 2007 19:10
          To: covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com
          Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Greg Price...

          > John
          >
          > Why are you not currently reconciled to the church? You called
          > yourself excommunicated; is that still the case?
          >
          > On a side note: I am sure that the Pharisees had credible character
          > witnesses as well.
          >
          > Nathan Eshelman
          > Never have been RPNA, but friends of Christians who have been handed
          > to Satan.
          >

          Dear John,

          I am not saying that the three 'elders' of the RPNA (GM) are not
          decent and respectable Christian men in their private characters. I
          can bear witness as well to good-natured friendliness and sacrificial
          spirits of Greg Price and Lyndon Dohms. What I am saying is that they
          are incompetent, tyrannical and extremely sinful **with respect to
          their being overseers/elders* *, and I believe they should be censured,
          deposed from their positions, rejected and avoided because of their
          scandalous and disorderly rule, and sectarian and separatist and
          schismatic ecclesiology. Hard words I know, but I saw with my own eyes
          what happened and I myself fell as one of the latter day victims to
          their phony pretended spiritual purges.

          Chris Tylor



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        • John Hackler
          Gus Gianello wrote: Sir, And I say this politely, you would fit well in a prelatic church. The same Christ who called apostate
          Message 4 of 18 , Aug 13, 2007
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            Gus Gianello <dr.gus.gianello@...> wrote:
            Sir,
            And I say this politely, you would fit well in a prelatic church.  The same Christ who called apostate Israel a church (Mat 23), excoriated the "ordained teachers"--Pharisee s, scribes and priests as a generation of snakes. 
             
            Last I checked Christ hasn’t made such a declaration towards the RPNA (GM).  
             
             I dont need a church court to tell me, that only wicked men excommunicated widows.  Moreover, yours is the attitude that I mostly meet with pious Roman Catholics who cannot be convinced despite sodomizine priests, and persecuting popes, that their church is a whore.
             
            Of course the same baseless charge can be pointed right back at yourself since we don’t agree on the matter and I can claim you’re just as blind that you don’t see my way.  Btw… Nice touch interjecting pedophile priests into the mix…
             
            Much stronger language is used by Covenanter writers.  It does not matter what my experience has been, a godly presbyter does not soothe an adulterer and excommunicate a widow. 
             
            I wasn’t aware that a widow was above being excommunicate or that an adulterer was beyond redemption. I believe even the briefest excursion into God’s word would debunk your personal beliefs on these matters.
             
             Their works testify against them. 
             
            In your opinion…
             
             But, not wishing to rehash the whole tedious situation over again I leave you with this...
             
            1 Cor 15:33...Evil companionship corrupts good morals.  And my testimony has been that when you hang around unrepentant hypocrites, you start as a friend and end up as another sheep hung out to dry.  THAT I do know from experience.
             
            Gus Gianello
             
            The above could apply to whomever, even to those who were excommunicated, right?  … Of course as you stated, “It does not matter what my experience has been.” 
             
            John Hackler Jr.



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