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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: RPNA GM apology

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  • Walt Bre
    Darren, It is written by Nick as a defense to his position in the controversy with primarily Bob. I printed it yesterday morning and read half of the 84 pages
    Message 1 of 10 , Jul 25, 2007
      Darren,

      It is written by Nick as a defense to his position in
      the controversy with primarily Bob. I printed it
      yesterday morning and read half of the 84 pages before
      work. I hope to finish the balance today if my
      schedule permits. It is an absolutely excellent
      document in my opinion, and I have NEVER EVER met Nick
      and only know him by his involvement in the
      controversy. I did write to him once, but he never
      responded to me at that time. Thus, I have no
      personal feeling toward him one way or the other, but
      after reading the first half it is obvious the young
      man is extremely gifted and blessed in my opinion.

      One cannot read the document, with an open mind and
      without an ax to grind against him and the Elders, and
      see how he took time to lay out his arguments and yet
      did not just come out bashing and swinging at people.

      I look forward to reading the response from Bob as
      well, and am thankful it is not one of the Elders
      writing publically again. This way when people want
      to pounce on Nick they can now do it using his own
      words from this document, and stay focused on the
      issues he covered in the document.

      I will let you know if after reading the balance of
      the document if my mind changes toward his arguments
      as a whole, but from the first half, it is one of the
      better (if not one of the best) works I've seen
      covering this controversy and the real heart of the
      issues.

      Clearly, this view will go over with some like a
      sinking ship, but for those neutral Ministers and
      Elders (e.g., have not already gone public against our
      Elders on this site and others) out there who are
      looking for another side of the debate to consider,
      this document comes from one of the original people
      involved that were falsly accused (in my opinion) as
      being part of this consiracy against SOME of those
      that were excommunicated.

      Again, I don't know Nick, never met him and wrote him
      once which he never responded. Therefore, I am
      reading his arguments with a total open mind and the
      first half is excellent argumentation to consider by
      any. I hope the second half is as well done, but will
      let you know if my mind changes.

      I'll certainly read Bob's rebuttal as it comes into
      the marketplace and hope he does as excellent a job as
      Nick does in laying out his rebuttal. I also hope
      that if others go after Nick's arguments they will do
      as nice a job as he does laying out their position
      against him, and against our Session and Elders.

      Let the neutral minded make up their own minds rather
      than read the first couple pages and discount the
      entire document.

      Walt.

      --- Darren Harr <ddharr@...> wrote:

      > May I ask the history of this document that is
      > presented in the link below? I see it is rather a
      > lenghty document, I have read some of it and stand a
      > bit confused. Who is the author of it? What is the
      > intention of the whole document? This is just to
      > help me out a bit before diving into the lenghty
      > work.
      > Sincerely, Darren Harr
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: bob_suden <bsuden@...>
      > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Wednesday, July 25, 2007 12:22:20 AM
      > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: RPNA GM
      > apology
      >
      > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com,
      > "Tim Cunningham"
      > <timmopussycat@ ...> wrote:
      > >
      > > Those following the situation in the RPNA might
      > want to check out the
      > > following link.
      > >
      > > http://principium16 43.wordpress. com/files/
      > 2007/07/principi um1643pah1. doc
      > >
      > > It has been alleged to be an adequate response to
      > all the issues raised.
      > > As one who has read much of the relevan documents,
      > I suggest the above
      > > allegation be tested.
      > >
      > > Blessings
      > > Tim
      > >
      >
      > We is on top of it!
      > Somebody passed it on last week.
      > DV, a reply will be shortly forthcoming.
      > Thanks,
      > Bob S
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ____________________________________________________________________________________
      > Building a website is a piece of cake. Yahoo! Small
      > Business gives you all the tools to get online.
      > http://smallbusiness.yahoo.com/webhosting




      ____________________________________________________________________________________
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    • Deejay
      I hate to pipe up and burst your bubble--well no I don t actually, but whether we know anyone personally or not, we will always favour and esteem someone
      Message 2 of 10 , Jul 25, 2007

        I  hate to pipe up and burst your bubble--well no I don't actually, but whether we know anyone personally or not, we will always favour and esteem someone writing or otherwise communicating something, who is echoing our own opinion, even if our opinion is wrong.  It just confirms us in our error if we are wrong.

        ~Deejay


        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Walt Bre <humbled.learner@...> wrote:
        >
        > Darren,
        >
        > It is written by Nick as a defense to his position in
        > the controversy with primarily Bob. I printed it
        > yesterday morning and read half of the 84 pages before
        > work. I hope to finish the balance today if my
        > schedule permits. It is an absolutely excellent
        > document in my opinion, and I have NEVER EVER met Nick
        > and only know him by his involvement in the
        > controversy. I did write to him once, but he never
        > responded to me at that time. Thus, I have no
        > personal feeling toward him one way or the other, but
        > after reading the first half it is obvious the young
        > man is extremely gifted and blessed in my opinion.
        >
        >

      • Walt Bre
        Deejay, You don t have to burst my bubble as I had never intented to influence your views on this subject. My comments were intended and hopeful toward those
        Message 3 of 10 , Jul 25, 2007
          Deejay,

          You don't have to burst my bubble as I had never
          intented to influence your views on this subject. My
          comments were intended and hopeful toward those who
          could bring a neutral view to the excellent arguments
          posted by the author.

          There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we all
          bring our presuppositions to everything we read and
          hear, and clearly you will too. This is a fundamental
          principle in studying any subject.

          Nevertheless, in my opinion, it does not detract from
          the amazingly well written arguments made by Nick. I
          have read another several sections this morning and
          can only say it is some of the best argumentation I
          have ever read on any subject, and I read a ton of
          legal and argumentative documents weekly. The hardest
          kind are clearly those I translate with mechanical
          translation tools, and can only get part of the
          intended meaning out of the authors natural language.
          Even my translators who I have going over documents
          about every day to make them easier for me to
          understand do not take away from the complexity of
          what someone says by what they write. Nevertheless,
          we all have to give the author some benefit of the
          doubt when listening to their position in writing,
          over the phone or face-to-face.

          So, you can still believe the only reason I think his
          arguments are excellent is because I'm just taking his
          side with my presupposition and epistemology, but I
          will leave it up to those who are coming in the next
          round (hopefully it will be you as you are certainly a
          leader against our position) to show me that I'm all
          washed up. I stand ready, willing and able to change
          my mind on this next set of arguments that I hope will
          come from your pen...no matter what ever language you
          wish to write in...as I will do my best to get it into
          something I can read and understand.

          Thanks for bringing up the point and bursting my
          bubble. It does me good.

          Walt.




          --- Deejay <group.only@...> wrote:

          >
          > I hate to pipe up and burst your bubble--well no I
          > don't actually, but
          > whether we know anyone personally or not, we will
          > always favour and
          > esteem someone writing or otherwise communicating
          > something, who is
          > echoing our own opinion, even if our opinion is
          > wrong. It just confirms
          > us in our error if we are wrong.
          >
          > ~Deejay
          >
          >
          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
          > Walt Bre
          > <humbled.learner@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Darren,
          > >
          > > It is written by Nick as a defense to his position
          > in
          > > the controversy with primarily Bob. I printed it
          > > yesterday morning and read half of the 84 pages
          > before
          > > work. I hope to finish the balance today if my
          > > schedule permits. It is an absolutely excellent
          > > document in my opinion, and I have NEVER EVER met
          > Nick
          > > and only know him by his involvement in the
          > > controversy. I did write to him once, but he never
          > > responded to me at that time. Thus, I have no
          > > personal feeling toward him one way or the other,
          > but
          > > after reading the first half it is obvious the
          > young
          > > man is extremely gifted and blessed in my opinion.
          > >
          > >
          >
          >



          ____________________________________________________________________________________
          Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
          Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
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        • Deejay
          Methinks youve been talking to Mrs Mac! [B-)] And She s a hoot too. I am a leader against folks hurting other folks needlessly, and without good or
          Message 4 of 10 , Jul 25, 2007

            Methinks youve been talking to Mrs Mac!   B-)   And She's a hoot too.

            I am a "leader" against folks hurting other folks needlessly, and without good or righteous cause. So, yep, guess you could say that.

            The length of your post, to say so little, Mrs Mac would call bloviation! 

            ~Deejay


            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Walt Bre <humbled.learner@...> wrote:
            >
             (hopefully it will be you as you are certainly a
            > leader against our position) >
            > Walt.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --- Deejay group.only@... wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > I hate to pipe up and burst your bubble--well no I
            > > don't actually, but
            > > whether we know anyone personally or not, we will
            > > always favour and
            > > esteem someone writing or otherwise communicating
            > > something, who is
            > > echoing our own opinion, even if our opinion is
            > > wrong. It just confirms
            > > us in our error if we are wrong.
            > >
            > > ~Deejay
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
            > > Walt Bre
            > > humbled.learner@ wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Darren,
            > > >
            > > > It is written by Nick as a defense to his position
            > > in
            > > > the controversy with primarily Bob. I printed it
            > > > yesterday morning and read half of the 84 pages
            > > before
            > > > work. I hope to finish the balance today if my
            > > > schedule permits. It is an absolutely excellent
            > > > document in my opinion, and I have NEVER EVER met
            > > Nick
            > > > and only know him by his involvement in the
            > > > controversy. I did write to him once, but he never
            > > > responded to me at that time. Thus, I have no
            > > > personal feeling toward him one way or the other,
            > > but
            > > > after reading the first half it is obvious the
            > > young
            > > > man is extremely gifted and blessed in my opinion.
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            > ____________________________________________________________________________________
            > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
            > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
            > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
            >

          • Deejay
            I don t know either if you was being deliberately provocative, since it seems plain you have been talking to Mrs McClintock and its already likely you know I
            Message 5 of 10 , Jul 27, 2007
              I don't know either if you was being deliberately provocative, since it
              seems plain you have been talking to Mrs McClintock and its already
              likely you know I don't have the ability for you to say you expect me
              to write a paper such as you anticipate. But either way its of little
              regard to me. This whole debacle gets my goat so much, becasue people
              like some of those in your corner, have made my life into a living hell
              in many ways and its ongoing here in England. (I'll spare you the
              details) I don't think they acted malicously either, just as I don't
              think at least some of those in your corner haven't and aren't doing. I
              still have regard for some of those in your corner, even though I
              disagree with them. But it will always get my goat; and I don't need to
              read all the lengthy documents to be able to know its just plain wrong
              and sinful, the oath alone speaks for itself. And someone should
              always speak up for the under dogs. In this case the "wayward
              covenanters" so I'll not shut up, unless something comes to light
              that calls for it. But I'm not really a "leader" it just seems like
              that, cos I pipe up on the above pretext. And its the right thing to do
              too.

              ~Deejay




              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Walt Bre
              <humbled.learner@...> wrote:
              >
              > Deejay,
              >
              > You don't have to burst my bubble as I had never
              > intented to influence your views on this subject. My
              > comments were intended and hopeful toward those who
              > could bring a neutral view to the excellent arguments
              > posted by the author.
              >
              > There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we all
              > bring our presuppositions to everything we read and
              > hear, and clearly you will too. This is a fundamental
              > principle in studying any subject.
              >
              > Nevertheless, in my opinion, it does not detract from
              > the amazingly well written arguments made by Nick. I
              > have read another several sections this morning and
              > can only say it is some of the best argumentation I
              > have ever read on any subject, and I read a ton of
              > legal and argumentative documents weekly. The hardest
              > kind are clearly those I translate with mechanical
              > translation tools, and can only get part of the
              > intended meaning out of the authors natural language.
              > Even my translators who I have going over documents
              > about every day to make them easier for me to
              > understand do not take away from the complexity of
              > what someone says by what they write. Nevertheless,
              > we all have to give the author some benefit of the
              > doubt when listening to their position in writing,
              > over the phone or face-to-face.
              >
              > So, you can still believe the only reason I think his
              > arguments are excellent is because I'm just taking his
              > side with my presupposition and epistemology, but I
              > will leave it up to those who are coming in the next
              > round (hopefully it will be you as you are certainly a
              > leader against our position) to show me that I'm all
              > washed up. I stand ready, willing and able to change
              > my mind on this next set of arguments that I hope will
              > come from your pen...no matter what ever language you
              > wish to write in...as I will do my best to get it into
              > something I can read and understand.
              >
              > Thanks for bringing up the point and bursting my
              > bubble. It does me good.
              >
              > Walt.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --- Deejay group.only@... wrote:
              >
              > >
              > > I hate to pipe up and burst your bubble--well no I
              > > don't actually, but
              > > whether we know anyone personally or not, we will
              > > always favour and
              > > esteem someone writing or otherwise communicating
              > > something, who is
              > > echoing our own opinion, even if our opinion is
              > > wrong. It just confirms
              > > us in our error if we are wrong.
              > >
              > > ~Deejay
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
              > > Walt Bre
              > > humbled.learner@ wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Darren,
              > > >
              > > > It is written by Nick as a defense to his position
              > > in
              > > > the controversy with primarily Bob. I printed it
              > > > yesterday morning and read half of the 84 pages
              > > before
              > > > work. I hope to finish the balance today if my
              > > > schedule permits. It is an absolutely excellent
              > > > document in my opinion, and I have NEVER EVER met
              > > Nick
              > > > and only know him by his involvement in the
              > > > controversy. I did write to him once, but he never
              > > > responded to me at that time. Thus, I have no
              > > > personal feeling toward him one way or the other,
              > > but
              > > > after reading the first half it is obvious the
              > > young
              > > > man is extremely gifted and blessed in my opinion.
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ________________________________________________________________________\
              ____________
              > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
              > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
              > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
              >
            • Ic Neltococayotl
              Deejay, Hello my sister! I pray that things are good for you in England. I ... do ... As history teaches us, tyranny quivers when the mass it seeks to subdue
              Message 6 of 10 , Jul 28, 2007
                Deejay,

                Hello my sister! I pray that things are good for you in England. I
                love what you wrote, especially the end:

                >But I'm not really a "leader" it just seems like
                > that, cos I pipe up on the above pretext. And its the right thing to
                do
                > too.
                >
                > ~Deejay

                As history teaches us, tyranny quivers when the mass it seeks to subdue
                with its despotism begins to speak up and challenge the status quo and
                when that challenge comes from remote quarters too, the loyalist
                followers of the tyranny are angered and use various adjectives to
                discredit the challengers. It is always a good thing to pipe up to
                challenge usurpers of Christ's divine right of govt, worship, and
                doctrine. If only more Christians would challenge all such usurpations!

                Enough has been written already to disprove the govt of the "RPNA-GM"
                and Nicks paper is already refuted. But they refuse to acknowledge that
                they have been defeated. I too, like you, don't have the desire (why
                waste my time when vastly more important things need to be done?!) to
                answer Nick's attempts to redefine Presbyterianism with his dazzling
                sleight of mind use of logic in his mage's attempt to transform lead
                into gold.

                Deejay, do not let the dozen or so left in that "international
                congregation" put you through hell. Ignore them and move on. Delete
                their e-mails if need be. The bee that has no sting can only buzz, so
                disregard their attempts to distress you.

                Yours in Christ,
                Edgar

                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Deejay"
                <crazy_calvinist@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > I don't know either if you was being deliberately provocative, since
                it
                > seems plain you have been talking to Mrs McClintock and its already
                > likely you know I don't have the ability for you to say you expect me
                > to write a paper such as you anticipate. But either way its of little
                > regard to me. This whole debacle gets my goat so much, becasue people
                > like some of those in your corner, have made my life into a living
                hell
                > in many ways and its ongoing here in England. (I'll spare you the
                > details) I don't think they acted malicously either, just as I don't
                > think at least some of those in your corner haven't and aren't doing.
                I
                > still have regard for some of those in your corner, even though I
                > disagree with them. But it will always get my goat; and I don't need
                to
                > read all the lengthy documents to be able to know its just plain wrong
                > and sinful, the oath alone speaks for itself. And someone should
                > always speak up for the under dogs. In this case the "wayward
                > covenanters" so I'll not shut up, unless something comes to light
                > that calls for it. But I'm not really a "leader" it just seems like
                > that, cos I pipe up on the above pretext. And its the right thing to
                do
                > too.
                >
                > ~Deejay
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Walt Bre
                > humbled.learner@ wrote:
                > >
                > > Deejay,
                > >
                > > You don't have to burst my bubble as I had never
                > > intented to influence your views on this subject. My
                > > comments were intended and hopeful toward those who
                > > could bring a neutral view to the excellent arguments
                > > posted by the author.
                > >
                > > There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we all
                > > bring our presuppositions to everything we read and
                > > hear, and clearly you will too. This is a fundamental
                > > principle in studying any subject.
                > >
                > > Nevertheless, in my opinion, it does not detract from
                > > the amazingly well written arguments made by Nick. I
                > > have read another several sections this morning and
                > > can only say it is some of the best argumentation I
                > > have ever read on any subject, and I read a ton of
                > > legal and argumentative documents weekly. The hardest
                > > kind are clearly those I translate with mechanical
                > > translation tools, and can only get part of the
                > > intended meaning out of the authors natural language.
                > > Even my translators who I have going over documents
                > > about every day to make them easier for me to
                > > understand do not take away from the complexity of
                > > what someone says by what they write. Nevertheless,
                > > we all have to give the author some benefit of the
                > > doubt when listening to their position in writing,
                > > over the phone or face-to-face.
                > >
                > > So, you can still believe the only reason I think his
                > > arguments are excellent is because I'm just taking his
                > > side with my presupposition and epistemology, but I
                > > will leave it up to those who are coming in the next
                > > round (hopefully it will be you as you are certainly a
                > > leader against our position) to show me that I'm all
                > > washed up. I stand ready, willing and able to change
                > > my mind on this next set of arguments that I hope will
                > > come from your pen...no matter what ever language you
                > > wish to write in...as I will do my best to get it into
                > > something I can read and understand.
                > >
                > > Thanks for bringing up the point and bursting my
                > > bubble. It does me good.
                > >
                > > Walt.
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- Deejay group.only@ wrote:
                > >
                > > >
                > > > I hate to pipe up and burst your bubble--well no I
                > > > don't actually, but
                > > > whether we know anyone personally or not, we will
                > > > always favour and
                > > > esteem someone writing or otherwise communicating
                > > > something, who is
                > > > echoing our own opinion, even if our opinion is
                > > > wrong. It just confirms
                > > > us in our error if we are wrong.
                > > >
                > > > ~Deejay
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                > > > Walt Bre
                > > > humbled.learner@ wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Darren,
                > > > >
                > > > > It is written by Nick as a defense to his position
                > > > in
                > > > > the controversy with primarily Bob. I printed it
                > > > > yesterday morning and read half of the 84 pages
                > > > before
                > > > > work. I hope to finish the balance today if my
                > > > > schedule permits. It is an absolutely excellent
                > > > > document in my opinion, and I have NEVER EVER met
                > > > Nick
                > > > > and only know him by his involvement in the
                > > > > controversy. I did write to him once, but he never
                > > > > responded to me at that time. Thus, I have no
                > > > > personal feeling toward him one way or the other,
                > > > but
                > > > > after reading the first half it is obvious the
                > > > young
                > > > > man is extremely gifted and blessed in my opinion.
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                ________________________________________________________________________\
                \
                > ____________
                > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
                > >
                http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
                > >
                >
              • Deejay
                Hi Edgar, thanks for your kind words. Just to clarify, I never meant to imply these GM folks were putting me through hell. Its just folks who seem of a simialr
                Message 7 of 10 , Jul 28, 2007
                  Hi Edgar,

                  thanks for your kind words. Just to clarify, I never meant to imply
                  these GM folks were putting me through hell. Its just folks who seem of
                  a simialr disposition on my own doorstep who have my own affliction ten
                  times the cross it ought to have been. But I never meant to imply any
                  person anguish or animosity with the GM folks. Just I related to the
                  kind of error that is going on it, and how people get hurt. Like folks
                  hurt me locally (in England) (from my former "church") actually if you
                  can call it a "church."

                  ~Deejay
                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Ic Neltococayotl"
                  <puritanpresbyterian@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Deejay,

                  >
                  > Deejay, do not let the dozen or so left in that "international
                  > congregation" put you through hell. Ignore them and move on. Delete
                  > their e-mails if need be. The bee that has no sting can only buzz, so
                  > disregard their attempts to distress you.
                  >
                  > Yours in Christ,
                  > Edgar
                  >
                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Deejay"
                  > crazy_calvinist@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > I don't know either if you was being deliberately provocative, since
                  > it
                  > > seems plain you have been talking to Mrs McClintock and its already
                  > > likely you know I don't have the ability for you to say you expect
                  me
                  > > to write a paper such as you anticipate. But either way its of
                  little
                  > > regard to me. This whole debacle gets my goat so much, becasue
                  people
                  > > like some of those in your corner, have made my life into a living
                  > hell
                  > > in many ways and its ongoing here in England. (I'll spare you the
                  > > details) I don't think they acted malicously either, just as I don't
                  > > think at least some of those in your corner haven't and aren't
                  doing.
                  > I
                  > > still have regard for some of those in your corner, even though I
                  > > disagree with them. But it will always get my goat; and I don't need
                  > to
                  > > read all the lengthy documents to be able to know its just plain
                  wrong
                  > > and sinful, the oath alone speaks for itself. And someone should
                  > > always speak up for the under dogs. In this case the "wayward
                  > > covenanters" so I'll not shut up, unless something comes to light
                  > > that calls for it. But I'm not really a "leader" it just seems like
                  > > that, cos I pipe up on the above pretext. And its the right thing to
                  > do
                  > > too.
                  > >
                  > > ~Deejay
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Walt Bre
                  > > humbled.learner@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Deejay,
                  > > >
                  > > > You don't have to burst my bubble as I had never
                  > > > intented to influence your views on this subject. My
                  > > > comments were intended and hopeful toward those who
                  > > > could bring a neutral view to the excellent arguments
                  > > > posted by the author.
                  > > >
                  > > > There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we all
                  > > > bring our presuppositions to everything we read and
                  > > > hear, and clearly you will too. This is a fundamental
                  > > > principle in studying any subject.
                  > > >
                  > > > Nevertheless, in my opinion, it does not detract from
                  > > > the amazingly well written arguments made by Nick. I
                  > > > have read another several sections this morning and
                  > > > can only say it is some of the best argumentation I
                  > > > have ever read on any subject, and I read a ton of
                  > > > legal and argumentative documents weekly. The hardest
                  > > > kind are clearly those I translate with mechanical
                  > > > translation tools, and can only get part of the
                  > > > intended meaning out of the authors natural language.
                  > > > Even my translators who I have going over documents
                  > > > about every day to make them easier for me to
                  > > > understand do not take away from the complexity of
                  > > > what someone says by what they write. Nevertheless,
                  > > > we all have to give the author some benefit of the
                  > > > doubt when listening to their position in writing,
                  > > > over the phone or face-to-face.
                  > > >
                  > > > So, you can still believe the only reason I think his
                  > > > arguments are excellent is because I'm just taking his
                  > > > side with my presupposition and epistemology, but I
                  > > > will leave it up to those who are coming in the next
                  > > > round (hopefully it will be you as you are certainly a
                  > > > leader against our position) to show me that I'm all
                  > > > washed up. I stand ready, willing and able to change
                  > > > my mind on this next set of arguments that I hope will
                  > > > come from your pen...no matter what ever language you
                  > > > wish to write in...as I will do my best to get it into
                  > > > something I can read and understand.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks for bringing up the point and bursting my
                  > > > bubble. It does me good.
                  > > >
                  > > > Walt.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > --- Deejay group.only@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > I hate to pipe up and burst your bubble--well no I
                  > > > > don't actually, but
                  > > > > whether we know anyone personally or not, we will
                  > > > > always favour and
                  > > > > esteem someone writing or otherwise communicating
                  > > > > something, who is
                  > > > > echoing our own opinion, even if our opinion is
                  > > > > wrong. It just confirms
                  > > > > us in our error if we are wrong.
                  > > > >
                  > > > > ~Deejay
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > > > Walt Bre
                  > > > > humbled.learner@ wrote:
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > Darren,
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > > It is written by Nick as a defense to his position
                  > > > > in
                  > > > > > the controversy with primarily Bob. I printed it
                  > > > > > yesterday morning and read half of the 84 pages
                  > > > > before
                  > > > > > work. I hope to finish the balance today if my
                  > > > > > schedule permits. It is an absolutely excellent
                  > > > > > document in my opinion, and I have NEVER EVER met
                  > > > > Nick
                  > > > > > and only know him by his involvement in the
                  > > > > > controversy. I did write to him once, but he never
                  > > > > > responded to me at that time. Thus, I have no
                  > > > > > personal feeling toward him one way or the other,
                  > > > > but
                  > > > > > after reading the first half it is obvious the
                  > > > > young
                  > > > > > man is extremely gifted and blessed in my opinion.
                  > > > > >
                  > > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                  ________________________________________________________________________\
                  \
                  > \
                  > > ____________
                  > > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                  > > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
                  > > >
                  > http://search.yahoo.com/search?fr=oni_on_mail&p=graduation+gifts&cs=bz
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Salaam Alaykoum
                  Bless you Deejay! ... From: Deejay To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 9:35:39 PM Subject:
                  Message 8 of 10 , Jul 29, 2007
                    Bless you Deejay!

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Deejay <crazy_calvinist@...>
                    To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, July 27, 2007 9:35:39 PM
                    Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: RPNA GM apology


                    I don't know either if you was being deliberately provocative, since it
                    seems plain you have been talking to Mrs McClintock and its already
                    likely you know I don't have the ability for you to say you expect me
                    to write a paper such as you anticipate. But either way its of little
                    regard to me. This whole debacle gets my goat so much, becasue people
                    like some of those in your corner, have made my life into a living hell
                    in many ways and its ongoing here in England. (I'll spare you the
                    details) I don't think they acted malicously either, just as I don't
                    think at least some of those in your corner haven't and aren't doing. I
                    still have regard for some of those in your corner, even though I
                    disagree with them. But it will always get my goat; and I don't need to
                    read all the lengthy documents to be able to know its just plain wrong
                    and sinful, the oath alone speaks for itself. And someone should
                    always speak up for the under dogs. In this case the "wayward
                    covenanters" so I'll not shut up, unless something comes to light
                    that calls for it. But I'm not really a "leader" it just seems like
                    that, cos I pipe up on the above pretext. And its the right thing to do
                    too.

                    ~Deejay

                    --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Walt Bre
                    <humbled.learner@ ...> wrote:

                    >
                    > Deejay,
                    >
                    > You don't have to burst my bubble as I had never
                    > intented to influence your views on this subject. My
                    > comments were intended and hopeful toward those who
                    > could bring a neutral view to the excellent arguments
                    > posted by the author.
                    >
                    > There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we all
                    > bring our presuppositions to everything we read and
                    > hear, and clearly you will too. This is a fundamental
                    > principle in studying any subject.
                    >
                    > Nevertheless, in my opinion, it does not detract from
                    > the amazingly well written arguments made by Nick. I
                    > have read another several sections this morning and
                    > can only say it is some of the best argumentation I
                    > have ever read on any subject, and I read a ton of
                    > legal and argumentative documents weekly. The hardest
                    > kind are clearly those I translate with mechanical
                    > translation tools, and can only get part of the
                    > intended meaning out of the authors natural language.
                    > Even my translators who I have going over documents
                    > about every day to make them easier for me to
                    > understand do not take away from the complexity of
                    > what someone says by what they write. Nevertheless,
                    > we all have to give the author some benefit of the
                    > doubt when listening to their position in writing,
                    > over the phone or face-to-face.
                    >
                    > So, you can still believe the only reason I think his
                    > arguments are excellent is because I'm just taking his
                    > side with my presupposition and epistemology, but I
                    > will leave it up to those who are coming in the next
                    > round (hopefully it will be you as you are certainly a
                    > leader against our position) to show me that I'm all
                    > washed up. I stand ready, willing and able to change
                    > my mind on this next set of arguments that I hope will
                    > come from your pen...no matter what ever language you
                    > wish to write in...as I will do my best to get it into
                    > something I can read and understand.
                    >
                    > Thanks for bringing up the point and bursting my
                    > bubble. It does me good.
                    >
                    > Walt.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > --- Deejay group.only@. .. wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > I hate to pipe up and burst your bubble--well no I
                    > > don't actually, but
                    > > whether we know anyone personally or not, we will
                    > > always favour and
                    > > esteem someone writing or otherwise communicating
                    > > something, who is
                    > > echoing our own opinion, even if our opinion is
                    > > wrong. It just confirms
                    > > us in our error if we are wrong.
                    > >
                    > > ~Deejay
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com,
                    > > Walt Bre
                    > > humbled.learner@ wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Darren,
                    > > >
                    > > > It is written by Nick as a defense to his position
                    > > in
                    > > > the controversy with primarily Bob. I printed it
                    > > > yesterday morning and read half of the 84 pages
                    > > before
                    > > > work. I hope to finish the balance today if my
                    > > > schedule permits. It is an absolutely excellent
                    > > > document in my opinion, and I have NEVER EVER met
                    > > Nick
                    > > > and only know him by his involvement in the
                    > > > controversy. I did write to him once, but he never
                    > > > responded to me at that time. Thus, I have no
                    > > > personal feeling toward him one way or the other,
                    > > but
                    > > > after reading the first half it is obvious the
                    > > young
                    > > > man is extremely gifted and blessed in my opinion.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _\
                    ____________
                    > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                    > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
                    > http://search. yahoo.com/ search?fr= oni_on_mail& p=graduation+ gifts&cs= bz
                    >




                    Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers.
                  • Salaam Alaykoum
                    Amen! I ll second that one. ... From: Ic Neltococayotl To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, July 28,
                    Message 9 of 10 , Jul 29, 2007
                      Amen!  I'll second that one.

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Ic Neltococayotl <puritanpresbyterian@...>
                      To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 7:34:10 AM
                      Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: RPNA GM apology

                      Deejay,

                      Hello my sister! I pray that things are good for you in England. I
                      love what you wrote, especially the end:

                      >But I'm not really a "leader" it just seems like
                      > that, cos I pipe up on the above pretext. And its the right thing to
                      do
                      > too.
                      >
                      > ~Deejay

                      As history teaches us, tyranny quivers when the mass it seeks to subdue
                      with its despotism begins to speak up and challenge the status quo and
                      when that challenge comes from remote quarters too, the loyalist
                      followers of the tyranny are angered and use various adjectives to
                      discredit the challengers. It is always a good thing to pipe up to
                      challenge usurpers of Christ's divine right of govt, worship, and
                      doctrine. If only more Christians would challenge all such usurpations!

                      Enough has been written already to disprove the govt of the "RPNA-GM"
                      and Nicks paper is already refuted. But they refuse to acknowledge that
                      they have been defeated. I too, like you, don't have the desire (why
                      waste my time when vastly more important things need to be done?!) to
                      answer Nick's attempts to redefine Presbyterianism with his dazzling
                      sleight of mind use of logic in his mage's attempt to transform lead
                      into gold.

                      Deejay, do not let the dozen or so left in that "international
                      congregation" put you through hell. Ignore them and move on. Delete
                      their e-mails if need be. The bee that has no sting can only buzz, so
                      disregard their attempts to distress you.

                      Yours in Christ,
                      Edgar

                      --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, "Deejay"
                      <crazy_calvinist@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > I don't know either if you was being deliberately provocative, since
                      it
                      > seems plain you have been talking to Mrs McClintock and its already
                      > likely you know I don't have the ability for you to say you expect me
                      > to write a paper such as you anticipate. But either way its of little
                      > regard to me. This whole debacle gets my goat so much, becasue people
                      > like some of those in your corner, have made my life into a living
                      hell
                      > in many ways and its ongoing here in England. (I'll spare you the
                      > details) I don't think they acted malicously either, just as I don't
                      > think at least some of those in your corner haven't and aren't doing.
                      I
                      > still have regard for some of those in your corner, even though I
                      > disagree with them. But it will always get my goat; and I don't need
                      to
                      > read all the lengthy documents to be able to know its just plain wrong
                      > and sinful, the oath alone speaks for itself. And someone should
                      > always speak up for the under dogs. In this case the "wayward
                      > covenanters" so I'll not shut up, unless something comes to light
                      > that calls for it. But I'm not really a "leader" it just seems like
                      > that, cos I pipe up on the above pretext. And its the right thing to
                      do
                      > too.
                      >
                      > ~Deejay
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Walt Bre
                      > humbled.learner@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Deejay,
                      > >
                      > > You don't have to burst my bubble as I had never
                      > > intented to influence your views on this subject. My
                      > > comments were intended and hopeful toward those who
                      > > could bring a neutral view to the excellent arguments
                      > > posted by the author.
                      > >
                      > > There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that we all
                      > > bring our presuppositions to everything we read and
                      > > hear, and clearly you will too. This is a fundamental
                      > > principle in studying any subject.
                      > >
                      > > Nevertheless, in my opinion, it does not detract from
                      > > the amazingly well written arguments made by Nick. I
                      > > have read another several sections this morning and
                      > > can only say it is some of the best argumentation I
                      > > have ever read on any subject, and I read a ton of
                      > > legal and argumentative documents weekly. The hardest
                      > > kind are clearly those I translate with mechanical
                      > > translation tools, and can only get part of the
                      > > intended meaning out of the authors natural language.
                      > > Even my translators who I have going over documents
                      > > about every day to make them easier for me to
                      > > understand do not take away from the complexity of
                      > > what someone says by what they write. Nevertheless,
                      > > we all have to give the author some benefit of the
                      > > doubt when listening to their position in writing,
                      > > over the phone or face-to-face.
                      > >
                      > > So, you can still believe the only reason I think his
                      > > arguments are excellent is because I'm just taking his
                      > > side with my presupposition and epistemology, but I
                      > > will leave it up to those who are coming in the next
                      > > round (hopefully it will be you as you are certainly a
                      > > leader against our position) to show me that I'm all
                      > > washed up. I stand ready, willing and able to change
                      > > my mind on this next set of arguments that I hope will
                      > > come from your pen...no matter what ever language you
                      > > wish to write in...as I will do my best to get it into
                      > > something I can read and understand.
                      > >
                      > > Thanks for bringing up the point and bursting my
                      > > bubble. It does me good.
                      > >
                      > > Walt.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- Deejay group.only@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > I hate to pipe up and burst your bubble--well no I
                      > > > don't actually, but
                      > > > whether we know anyone personally or not, we will
                      > > > always favour and
                      > > > esteem someone writing or otherwise communicating
                      > > > something, who is
                      > > > echoing our own opinion, even if our opinion is
                      > > > wrong. It just confirms
                      > > > us in our error if we are wrong.
                      > > >
                      > > > ~Deejay
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com,
                      > > > Walt Bre
                      > > > humbled.learner@ wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Darren,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It is written by Nick as a defense to his position
                      > > > in
                      > > > > the controversy with primarily Bob. I printed it
                      > > > > yesterday morning and read half of the 84 pages
                      > > > before
                      > > > > work. I hope to finish the balance today if my
                      > > > > schedule permits. It is an absolutely excellent
                      > > > > document in my opinion, and I have NEVER EVER met
                      > > > Nick
                      > > > > and only know him by his involvement in the
                      > > > > controversy. I did write to him once, but he never
                      > > > > responded to me at that time. Thus, I have no
                      > > > > personal feeling toward him one way or the other,
                      > > > but
                      > > > > after reading the first half it is obvious the
                      > > > young
                      > > > > man is extremely gifted and blessed in my opinion.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _\
                      \
                      > ____________
                      > > Luggage? GPS? Comic books?
                      > > Check out fitting gifts for grads at Yahoo! Search
                      > >
                      http://search. yahoo.com/ search?fr= oni_on_mail& p=graduation+ gifts&cs= bz
                      > >
                      >




                      Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to Yahoo! Answers.
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