Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Terms of Communion

Expand Messages
  • gmw
    ... communion in a Covenanter church? ... did not also affirm all six of these terms? ... Glenn, My understanding is that historically the Reformed
    Message 1 of 13 , Jun 6, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Ferrell"
      <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
      >
      > By terms of communion, am I to understand:
      >
      > 1) One must affirm all six of these before he is allowed to receive
      communion in a Covenanter church?
      >
      > 2) A Covenanter would not receive communion in a congregation that
      did not also affirm all six of these terms?
      >
      > One, two or both?
      >

      Glenn,

      My understanding is that historically the Reformed Presbyterian Church
      explicitly defined their denomination by their terms of communion. In
      the Reformation Principles Exhibited, the Reformed Presbyterians
      "condemn the following errors, and testify against all who maintain
      them" --

      "5. That it is lawful for the Church to be without any terms of
      Christian communion."

      "6. That any person may be admitted to communion, who opposes any of
      the terms of Church-fellowship." [I believe this may correspond to
      your 1) above].

      "7. That occasional communion may be extended to persons who should
      not be received to constant fellowship." [I believe that this
      principle being applied both ways, can correspond in some way to your
      2) above].

      I hope my answer is satisfactory and helpful. Sadly, those who are
      more learned and far better qualified than me to answer these types of
      questions, tend not to do so much anymore -- at least not in this forum.

      gmw.
    • gmw
      ... this group BUT are NOT present members of the RPNA(GM) : How do you interpret the 4th term of communion with regard to the Solemn League and Covenant?
      Message 2 of 13 , Jun 6, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Salaam Alaykoum
        <allah_who_maana@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have a question for those who consider themselves Covenanters on
        this group BUT are NOT present members of the "RPNA(GM)": How do you
        interpret the 4th term of communion with regard to the Solemn League
        and Covenant? I've heard 2 opposing arguments and I'd be interested
        in hearing what you all think. Argument #1 - The wording means that
        we are bound by the SL&C. Argument #2 - The wording is simply stating
        that the SL&C and its following renovations are examples of our duty
        to publicly and socially covenant. This is not indicative of my
        position, just a question I have given past discussions I have heard.

        Samantha,

        To me, it's important to identify what you mean by "we" when you say
        "the wording means that WE are bound by the SL&C." Do you mean we as
        Reformed Presbyterians, we as Canadians/Americans/Australians or
        whatever, we as Scots, English, Irish?

        To start, I will say that the 4th term is very clear that the National
        and Solemn League, along with the Auch. Renovation, are indeed
        examples of our duty. That part is clear. It's the part about those
        Covenants being obligatory on the moral person that is the issue. I
        don't think the continued obligation of the nations of England,
        Ireland, and Scotland are in question, so I shall pass over those for
        now.

        What often comes up is whether or not the "daughter nations" of
        England are also of continued obligation. Being an arrogant American
        who has not bothered to study much about the nation of Canada, I would
        be foolish to get too much into particulars about that country.

        But concerning the United States, matters are admittedly complicated
        by the fact that there was a rebellion of several states, which then
        united into a new nation with a new government. I'm frankly undecided
        about whether or not the USA is federally/nationally under obligation
        to the SL&C in any similar sense that England, Ireland and Scotland are.

        I will say this about the National Covenant -- being a covenant of the
        Scottish Nation, and the USA being a daughter of England and not of
        Scotland, is NOT (in my estimation) binding on the USA.

        Concerning the SL&C in relation to the USA, seemingly differing
        aspects are addressed within Reformed Presbyterian literature. The
        Reformed Presbytery did wrote an overture on Covenanting in which they
        pointed out that "The colonies, at the time of entering into the
        Solemn League and Covenant, were an integral part of the British
        nation. They held their lands under the crown, and were governed by
        deputies of the throne, whom they acknowledged as their governors" and
        that the Colonists insisted upon their rights as British citizens.
        This is something to consider... and it speaks of what the Colonies
        SHOULD HAVE DONE in regard to the Covenants of the mother land.

        However, I also find that Samuel Wylie in the great work The Two Sons
        of Oil puts forth several reasons why Reformed Presbyterians cannot be
        loyal to the United States government -- rather than arguing that "the
        USA is a covenant breaking nation that ought not to be countenanced,"
        he argues more along the lines that we Reformed Presbyterians (at that
        time, still profoundly Scottish in nationality, btw) are obligated to
        covenants that do not allow for us to be loyal to anything against
        those covenants.

        Maybe I'm not helping much. All of this is to say that I think we as
        Reformed Presbyterians ought to view Term #4 to certainly mean that
        Covenanting is a gospel ordinance, that the National and Solemn League
        and Covenant are great examples of Covenanting (as is the Renovation),
        and that those who were represented in the taking of the Covenant are
        still bound by it. I believe this means the nations of England,
        Ireland, and Scotland. I believe it means we as RP's (so far as it
        concerns those duties not circumstantial to the British Isles). I
        believe it means Scottish immigrants, English, Irish immigrants
        (again, so long as this is understood as relating to those obligations
        not unique to the British Isles). Whether or not it means the USA as
        a national entity, you may get a different answer from me two days in
        a row.

        gmw.
      • truepresbyterian
        Dear Mr. Ferrell, As for number 1: One must affirm all six of these before he is allowed to receive communion in a Covenanter church. This is implied by what
        Message 3 of 13 , Jun 6, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Mr. Ferrell,

          As for number 1: "One must affirm all six of these before he is
          allowed to receive communion in a Covenanter church." This is implied
          by what is meant. The word "Communion" can refer to an ecclesiastical
          communion, that is, a church body; or it can refer to the Lord's
          Supper. The Terms of Communion are conditions for joining and
          remaining part of the Communion. Consequently, they are also
          conditions for taking part in Communion. What the Lord's Supper
          signifies is more important than the Lord's Supper itself. It would
          only be legalistic hypocrisy if we guarded a ceremony more than we
          guarded the reality it signifies.

          As for number 2: "A Covenanter would not receive communion in a
          congregation that did not also affirm all six of these terms."
          Incorrect. It does mean that a Covenanter will not receive communion
          or re-unite in communion with the "Reformed Presbyterian" church
          (RPCNA, etc.) until it returns to the original RP Terms of Communion.
          Until then such "Reformed Presbyterian" Churches are guilty of
          backsliding and defection. We will not join them in that course. But
          we will receive communion in any congregation with which we can join
          in membership as part of their ecclesiastical community.

          We will receive communion in any faithful, scriptural church, teaching
          true doctrine, practicing true worship, excercising biblical
          discipline (which will affect their Terms of Communion.) We do not
          pretend that the deed at Auchensaugh, done by a small, (but faithful,)
          fellowship of Christians, of itself obliges anyone outside that
          communion. But note that our Terms of Communion only require that one
          recognize that the Renovation was "agreeable to the word of God." We
          would expect other faithful Presbyterians to agree to this if they
          examined the deed. And as for the Covenants, we do not imagine that
          they oblige any outside the ecclesiastical and civil bodies, as well
          as private families and individuals represented by them. A faithful
          Church could form without any knowledge of them. But, for those civil
          and ecclesiastic bodies, and families and individuals, who are bound,
          we have a duty to prosecute the ends of these Covenants wherever we
          are. If joining a Church would mean violating these Covenants, then
          the rule against occasional hearing necessitates that we abstain from
          using any ministerial ordinances from such ecclesiastical communions.

          Of course, the practical realities are, that there is no
          non-Reformed-Presbyterian church that any Covenanter has ever seen
          which adheres to such principles and practices as Covenanters can
          approve. And while hypothetical situations can be proposed where a
          Church might take existence on a footing that is Scriptural, in the
          Covenanter sense, and yet historically unrelated to the Covenanter
          Church of Scotland, certain realities lead us away from expecting
          this. For one thing, (as I recently said to someone else,) true
          Christians love Church history. If someone comes to believe in the
          regulative principle of worship, and the duty of dissenting from the
          authority of the US and other "governments" as having only the "power"
          and "authority" mentioned in Rev. 13.2 (and not that in Rom. 13,) then
          that person is going to want to know about the other Christians in
          history who agreed with him. We expect therefore that the faithful
          Christians and pastors scattered here and there, who are by God's
          grace brought to believe the truths of the Reformation, will seek
          association with the "Reformed Presbyterian" church, and find therein
          standards of doctrine and practice that they can approve.

          If they can draft a Confession of Faith better than the Westminster
          Confession, we will be glad to see it in a list of Terms of Communion.
          Perhaps some people think there are better Confessions. At this point
          however, Covenanters are not persuaded that the world has ever seen a
          better Confession. But we will be as happy as anyone else when that
          day comes.

          So, in summary, to answer your questions:

          Technically:
          1. Yes, and it means something more general too.
          2. No.

          Practically:
          1. Yes.
          2. Yes, for now.

          I hope these considerations are helpful to you, and to other well
          meaning Covenanters who may have been misled about some of these things.

          True Presbyterian



          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Ferrell"
          <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
          >
          > By terms of communion, am I to understand:
          >
          > 1) One must affirm all six of these before he is allowed to receive
          communion in a Covenanter church?
          >
          > 2) A Covenanter would not receive communion in a congregation that
          did not also affirm all six of these terms?
          >
          > One, two or both?
          >
          > Glenn
          > ________________________________________________________
          >
          > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church,
          Boise, Idaho
          > ________________________________________________________
          >
          > "To suppose that whatever God requireth of us
          > that we have the power of ourselves to do,
          > is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none effect."
          >
          > -John Owen (1616-1683)
          > ________________________________________________________
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Jerry<mailto:ragingcalvinist@...>
          > To:
          covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com<mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>

          > Sent: Tuesday, June 05, 2007 6:08 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Terms of Communion
          >
          >
          > Sure thing, Glenn.
          >
          > The Six Terms of Communion:
          >
          > 1. An acknowledgment of the Old and New Testament to be the word
          of God, and the alone infallible rule of faith and practice.
          >
          > 2. That the whole doctrine of the Westminster Confession of Faith,
          and the Catechisms, Larger and Shorter, are agreeable unto, and
          founded upon, the Scriptures.
          >
          > 3. That presbyterial Church Government and manner of worship are
          alone of divine right and unalterable; and that the most perfect model
          of these as yet attained, is exhibited in the Form of Government and
          Directory For Worship, adopted by the Church of Scotland in the Second
          Reformation.
          >
          > 4. That public, social covenanting, is an ordinance of God,
          obligatory on churches and nations under the New Testament; that the
          National Covenant and the Solemn League are an exemplification of this
          divine institution; and that these Deeds are of continued obligation
          upon the moral person; and in consistency with this—that the
          Renovation of these Covenants at Auchensaugh, 1712, was agreeable to
          the word of God.
          >
          > 5. An approbation of the faithful contendings of the martyrs of
          Jesus, especially in Scotland, against Paganism, Popery, Prelacy,
          Malignancy and Sectarianism; immoral civil governments; Erastian
          tolerations and persecutions which flow from them; and of the Judicial
          Testimony emitted by the Reformed Presbytery in North Britain, 1761,
          and adopted by this church, with supplements; as containing a noble
          example to be followed, in contending for all divine truth, and in
          testifying against all corruptions embodied in the constitutions of
          either churches or states.
          >
          > 6. Practically adorning the doctrine of God our Savior, by walking
          in all his commandments and ordinances blamelessly.
          >
          > gmw.
          >
          > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
          >
          > I know they may be found online. However, for discussion sake,
          could one of you post the six terms of communion used by Covenanters?
          >
          > Glenn
          >
          > ________________________________________________________ J.
          Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyterian Church, Boise,
          Idaho ________________________________________________________
          > "To suppose that whatever God requireth of us that we have the
          power of ourselves to do, is to make the cross and grace of Jesus
          Christ of none effect." -John Owen (1616-1683)
          ________________________________________________________
          >
        • Whit R
          My interpretatio of the 4th Term of Communion is that we are to bound to obey God through the Scriptural principles of Covenant and that it is binding upon the
          Message 4 of 13 , Jun 15, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            My interpretatio of the 4th Term of Communion is that we are to bound
            to obey God through the Scriptural principles of Covenant and that it
            is binding upon the Three Kingdoms and their current and former
            colonies. Since it is a Scirptural Covenant, then no one except God
            can annul or release obligation to the Covenant (Gal. 3:14-18). In
            short, Argument #1 moreso although Argument #2 also applies since
            covenanting is a solemn duty.

            Whit
            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Salaam Alaykoum
            <allah_who_maana@...> wrote:
            >
            > I have a question for those who consider themselves Covenanters on
            this group BUT are NOT present members of the "RPNA(GM)": How do you
            interpret the 4th term of communion with regard to the Solemn League
            and Covenant? I've heard 2 opposing arguments and I'd be interested
            in hearing what you all think. Argument #1 - The wording means that
            we are bound by the SL&C. Argument #2 - The wording is simply
            stating that the SL&C and its following renovations are examples of
            our duty to publicly and socially covenant. This is not indicative
            of my position, just a question I have given past discussions I have
            heard. Thank you.
            > ~Samantha
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Jerry <ragingcalvinist@...>
            > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, June 5, 2007 6:08:41 PM
            > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Terms of Communion
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Sure thing, Glenn.
            >
            >
            >
            > The Six Terms of Communion:
            >
            >
            >
            > 1. An acknowledgment of the Old and New Testament to be the word of
            > God, and the alone infallible rule of faith and practice.
            >
            >
            >
            > 2. That the whole doctrine of the Westminster Confession of Faith,
            and
            > the Catechisms, Larger and Shorter, are agreeable unto, and founded
            > upon, the Scriptures.
            >
            >
            >
            > 3. That presbyterial Church Government and manner of worship are
            alone
            > of divine right and unalterable; and that the most perfect model of
            > these as yet attained, is exhibited in the Form of Government and
            > Directory For Worship, adopted by the Church of Scotland in the
            Second
            > Reformation.
            >
            >
            >
            > 4. That public, social covenanting, is an ordinance of God,
            obligatory
            > on churches and nations under the New Testament; that the National
            > Covenant and the Solemn League are an exemplification of this divine
            > institution; and that these Deeds are of continued obligation upon
            the
            > moral person; and in consistency with this—that the Renovation of
            these
            > Covenants at Auchensaugh, 1712, was agreeable to the word of God.
            >
            >
            >
            > 5. An approbation of the faithful contendings of the martyrs of
            Jesus,
            > especially in Scotland, against Paganism, Popery, Prelacy,
            Malignancy
            > and Sectarianism; immoral civil governments; Erastian tolerations
            and
            > persecutions which flow from them; and of the Judicial Testimony
            > emitted by the Reformed Presbytery in North Britain, 1761, and
            adopted
            > by this church, with supplements; as containing a noble example to
            be
            > followed, in contending for all divine truth, and in testifying
            against
            > all corruptions embodied in the constitutions of either churches or
            > states.
            >
            >
            >
            > 6. Practically adorning the doctrine of God our Savior, by walking
            in
            > all his commandments and ordinances blamelessly.
            >
            >
            >
            > gmw.
            >
            >
            >
            > Glenn Ferrell wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > I know they may be found online. However, for discussion sake,
            > could one of you post the six terms of communion used by
            Covenanters?
            >
            >
            >
            > Glenn
            >
            >
            >
            > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
            > J. Glenn Ferrell, Pastor, Sovereign Redeemer Presbyte rian
            Church, Boise, Idaho
            > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ ________
            >
            >
            > "To suppose that whatever God requireth of us
            > that we have the power of ourselves to do,
            > is to make the cross and grace of Jesus Christ of none
            effect."
            > -John Owen (1616- 1683) ____________ _________ _________ _________
            _________ ________
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > <!--
            >
            > #ygrp-mlmsg {font-size:13px;font-family:arial, helvetica, clean,
            sans-serif;}
            > #ygrp-mlmsg table {font-size:inherit;font:100%;}
            > #ygrp-mlmsg select, input, textarea {font:99% arial, helvetica,
            clean, sans-serif;}
            > #ygrp-mlmsg pre, code {font:115% monospace;}
            > #ygrp-mlmsg * {line-height:1.22em;}
            > #ygrp-text{
            > font-family:Georgia;
            > }
            > #ygrp-text p{
            > margin:0 0 1em 0;}
            > #ygrp-tpmsgs{
            > font-family:Arial;
            > clear:both;}
            > #ygrp-vitnav{
            > padding-top:10px;font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;margin:0;}
            > #ygrp-vitnav a{
            > padding:0 1px;}
            > #ygrp-actbar{
            > clear:both;margin:25px 0;white-space:nowrap;color:#666;text-
            align:right;}
            > #ygrp-actbar .left{
            > float:left;white-space:nowrap;}
            > .bld{font-weight:bold;}
            > #ygrp-grft{
            > font-family:Verdana;font-size:77%;padding:15px 0;}
            > #ygrp-ft{
            > font-family:verdana;font-size:77%;border-top:1px solid #666;
            > padding:5px 0;
            > }
            > #ygrp-mlmsg #logo{
            > padding-bottom:10px;}
            >
            > #ygrp-vital{
            > background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:2px 0 8px 8px;}
            > #ygrp-vital #vithd{
            > font-size:77%;font-family:Verdana;font-weight:bold;color:#333;text-
            transform:uppercase;}
            > #ygrp-vital ul{
            > padding:0;margin:2px 0;}
            > #ygrp-vital ul li{
            > list-style-type:none;clear:both;border:1px solid #e0ecee;
            > }
            > #ygrp-vital ul li .ct{
            > font-weight:bold;color:#ff7900;float:right;width:2em;text-
            align:right;padding-right:.5em;}
            > #ygrp-vital ul li .cat{
            > font-weight:bold;}
            > #ygrp-vital a {
            > text-decoration:none;}
            >
            > #ygrp-vital a:hover{
            > text-decoration:underline;}
            >
            > #ygrp-sponsor #hd{
            > color:#999;font-size:77%;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor #ov{
            > padding:6px 13px;background-color:#e0ecee;margin-bottom:20px;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor #ov ul{
            > padding:0 0 0 8px;margin:0;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li{
            > list-style-type:square;padding:6px 0;font-size:77%;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor #ov li a{
            > text-decoration:none;font-size:130%;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor #nc {
            > background-color:#eee;margin-bottom:20px;padding:0 8px;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor .ad{
            > padding:8px 0;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor .ad #hd1{
            > font-family:Arial;font-weight:bold;color:#628c2a;font-
            size:100%;line-height:122%;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a{
            > text-decoration:none;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor .ad a:hover{
            > text-decoration:underline;}
            > #ygrp-sponsor .ad p{
            > margin:0;}
            > o {font-size:0;}
            > .MsoNormal {
            > margin:0 0 0 0;}
            > #ygrp-text tt{
            > font-size:120%;}
            > blockquote{margin:0 0 0 4px;}
            > .replbq {margin:4;}
            > -->
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving
            junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at
            http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
            >
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.