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What constitutes lawful creation or recreation of a moral person in law?

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  • Walt
    Dear brethren, There has been some question within the covenanter movement that once a lawful church court is dissolved, it may be required that it properly
    Message 1 of 1 , Dec 3, 2006
      Dear brethren,

      There has been some question within the covenanter movement that once
      a lawful church court is dissolved, it may be required that it
      properly recreate, or create, itself by newly defining itself
      formerally under a new Constitution in Presbyterian government. This
      would insure that a lawful notice of dissolution would be later
      satisfied with a lawful, written form of constitutional creation.

      However, this possible requirement, in my opinion, would suggest that
      a Constitution may be the only lawful means to create a moral person
      in the eyes of Scripture.

      Presently, I'm researching Scripture and Presbyterian history to
      determine if this litmus test is required to be considered a lawful
      and faithful means to create a moral person, and although not
      complete, I would like to share with you that which I have also been
      researching in how the common law of England differs from that of
      constitutional law of America.

      Obviously, we all know that England has no formal, written consitution
      and that America has her written declaration of independence and her
      subsequent written consitution of the united states. Thus, I thought
      I would look toward the dissolution of Parliment in England to see how
      they reinstituted themselves after dissolution.

      Although my research is not complete, as I'm going to study the House
      of Lords, I thought I would share the following with you regarding the
      record of the House of Commons. I'm also provided the links if you
      care to do further research yourselves.

      'House of Commons Journal Volume 2: 05 May 1640', /Journal of the
      House of Commons: volume 2: 1640-1643/ (1802), p. 19.

      Die Martis, 5; Maii, 16; Regni Regis Car.


      Parliament dissolved.

      THE Gentleman Usher of the Upper House came from his Majesty, to
      require the Knights, Citizens, and Burgesses, of this House, to come
      up presently to his Majesty: And there, by his Majesty's Command, my
      Lord Keeper dissolved this present Parliament.

      ============================= (It is recreated or created here on
      November 3, 1640 - Walt)

      'House of Commons Journal Volume 2: 03 November 1640', /Journal of the
      House of Commons: volume 2: 1640-1643/ (1802), p. 20.

      Die Martis, 3 Novembris, 1640.

      Parliament meets.

      ABOUT Nine of Clock this Forenoon, the Earl Marshal of /England/, Lord
      High Steward of his Majesty's most Honourable Household, came into the
      outward Room of the Commons House, accompanied with Mr. Treasurer of
      the King's Houshold, Sir /Thomas Roe/, Knight, One of his Majesty's
      most Honourable Privy Council, and others: Where, when the Cryer of
      the Chancery had first made Proclamation, and the Clerk of the Crown
      in Chancery had called over the Names of all such Knights, Citizens,
      Burgesses, and Barons of the Cinque Ports, as were then returned, his
      Lordship first swore about threescore, and then made his Deputation
      under his Hand and Seal; which was openly read by the Clerk of the
      Parliament attending upon the Commons; and by the which he did
      constitute those of the Privy Council, and other Members of this
      House, authorizing them, or any Six, Five, Four, or more of them, in
      his Place and Stead, to minister the Oaths of Supremacy and Allegiance
      to all such Members of this House, as had not yet received them,
      during this present Parliament: Who then departed to wait upon the
      King; who, about One of Clock, came in his Barge from /Whitehall/ to
      /Westminster/ Bridge, where the Lords met him; And from thence, in
      great Solemnity, he came, accompanied with many of his Nobles, through
      /Westminster/ Hall, and the Court of Requests, to the Abbey, where he
      heard a Sermon preached by the Bishop of /Bristol/; and then came to
      the Lords House: Where his Majesty briefly, and the Lord Keeper more
      at large, delivered the Causes of summoning this Parliament; such
      Members of the House of Commons as pleased, being there present.

      Mr. Lentall chosen Speaker.

      The House of Commons being returned from the Lords and set; after a
      little Pause, Mr. Treasurer broke the Silence, putting them in mind of
      the Custom of choosing a Speaker, nominating Mr. /Lentall/; and with
      one [Consent], was cried to the Chair. He rose and desired to be
      excused, for the Weightiness of the Affairs, for his own sake, knowing
      his own Weaknesses, or at least, for their own sakes. His Excuse did
      more raise the Cry of all Men to have him to the Chair; and was at
      length led to the Chair by Mr. Treasurer and Mr. Secretary /Windebanke:/

      Before he took the Chair, he once again desired the House to excuse him.

      The House adjourns itself till /Thursday/ at Two of Clock /post
      Meridiem/, then to meet to present Mr. Speaker.

      ============================= (next meeting in the record-Walt)

      Jovis, 5 Novembris, 16 Caroli Regis, 1640. Post Meridiem.

      The King attended.

      THIS Afternoon, about Two of Clock, his Majesty came by Water, and
      landed at Parliament Stairs: About half an Hour after, the Gentleman
      Usher of the Lords House came, and told the Speaker Elect, that his
      Majesty was come to the Upper House, and expected him immediately:
      Thereupon Mr. Speaker, accompanied with Mr. Treasurer of the King's
      Houshold, and such others of the House, as pleased-

      Mr. Speaker returned from the Lords House, with the Mace carried
      before him: And after Three Obeisances solemnly made, and he in his
      Chair, and the House settled; after a little Pause, was, after the
      usual Manner, read, /pro forma/; a Bill, /viz/.


      1^a /vice lecta/, An Act to prevent Inconveniencies happening by

      To meet To-morrow Morning at Eight of Clock.

      ======================== (Now they are running full steam ahead-Walt)

      Die Veneris, 6 Novembris, 16 Regni Regis Caroli, 1640.


      Fast Day.

      THERE was a Motion made for a Fast: It was thereupon

      /Resolved/, upon the Question, That the Desire of this House is, that
      there should be a Fast.

      /Resolved/, upon the Question, That there shall be a Message sent to
      the Lords, to desire them to join with this House to make a Request to
      his Majesty for a Fast.

      Sir /Tho. Roe/, Sir /Walther Erle/, Sir /Miles Fleetewood/, Sir /Henry
      Mildmay/, Sir /Tho. Barrington/, Mr. /Pimme/;

      This Committee is to meet this Afternoon, in the Treasury-chamber, to
      view the Orders of the last Parliament, touching a Fast; and
      accordingly to prepare a Report to the House.

      Committee of Privileges.

      Sir /Guy Palmes/, Sir /Tho. Barrington/, Sir /Fra. Barnham/, Sir /Jo.
      Hotham/, Sir /Jo. Trevor/, Mr. /Hatcher/, Mr. /H. Bellassis/, Sir
      /Gilb. Gerrard/, Mr. /Mallory/, Sir /Fr. Seymour/, Mr. /Kirton/, Sir
      /Hugh Cholmeley/, Sir /Rob. Harley/, Mr. /Selden/, Sir /Jo.
      Culpepper/, Sir /Jo. Strangewayes/, [Sir /Wm/.] /Litton/, [Mr. /St./]
      /Johns/, [Sir] /Christopher Hatton/, Sir /Oliver Luke/, Mr. Solicitor,
      Mr. /Ellis/, Mr. /Hollis/, Mr. /Whistler/, Mr. /Maynard/, Mr. /Charles
      Price/, Mr. /Grantham/, Mr. /Bagshaw/, Mr. /Broxam/, Mr. /White/, Sir
      /Tho. Witherington/, Sir /Wm. Witherington/, Mr. /Witakers/, Ld.
      /Digby/, Serjeant /Eures/, Mr. /Christ. Lewknour/, Sir /Wm. Masham/,
      Sir /Edward Deering/, Sir /Peter Heyman/, Sir /Edward Hales/, Sir
      /Henry Herbert/, Mr. /Morgan/, Lord /Russell/, Mr. /Glinne/, Mr.
      /Hampden/, Sir /Roger North/, Sir /Tho. Walsingham/, Sir /Miles
      Fleetewood/, Sir /Anthony Irby/, Ld. /Fairefax/, Mr. /Owfeild/, Mr.
      /Duke/, Mr. /Perpoint/, Sir /Rich. Onslow/, Mr. /Strangwayes/, Sir
      /Henry Mildmay/, Sir /Edmund Mountfort/, Mr. /Jo. Bellassis/, Sir
      /Walther Earle/, Mr. /Pimme/, Sir /Philip Stapleton/, Ld. /Dungaroon/,
      Sir /Christ. Wray/, Sir /Rich. Vivian/, Mr. /Denzell Hollis/, Sir /Jo.
      Wray/, Mr. /Cage/, Sir /Edw. Aiskew/, Mr. /Upton/, Mr. /Palmer/, Sir
      /Arthur Ingram/, Mr. /Grimston/, Mr. /King/, Mr. /Wm. Sands/, Mr.
      /Perd/, Ld. /Andever/, Sir /Ro. Crane/, Mr. /Rous/, Sir /Tho. Bowyer/,
      Sir /Jo. Jennings/, Mr. /Valentine/, Sir /Hen. Crooke/, Sir /Wm.
      Carnaby/, Sir /Arthur Haslerigg/, Sir /Sidney Mountague/, Mr. /Fines/,
      Mr. /Henry Cooke/, Ld. /Buckhurst/;

      This Committee is appointed to examine and consider all Questions, to
      grow and arise this Parliament, about Elections, Returns, or other
      Privileges of the House; and to report their Opinions and Proceedings
      therein to the House: And have Power to send for Records, Witnesses,
      and Parties, and to hear Counsel: And are, for this Service, to meet
      this Afternoon, and afterwards every /Saturday, Tuesday/, and
      /Thursday/, in the Star chamber, at Two of Clock after Dinner.

      Election Petitions.

      /Ordered/, That those Petitions, this Day delivered in the House,
      concerning Elections, shall be bundled up, and delivered to the
      Committee for Privileges; and they to consider, which of them to fall
      in hand with first.

      Controverted Elections.

      It was moved, That where Some are returned by the Sheriff, or such
      other Officer, that in Law has Power to return, Others by private
      Hands, That those returned by the Sheriff [should sit, till their]
      Election be quasht by the House: But nothing was ordered [upon it].


      It was likewise moved, That the Committee for Privileges might have
      Power to determine all Cases, that appear clear, upon the bare View of
      the Indenture: And the Order of this House, the last Parliament was
      read: But the House resolved nothing upon it.

      Cambridge Writ.

      /Ordered/, A Warrant to issue, under Mr. Speaker's Hand, to the Clerk
      of the Crown, for a new Writ to be sent to the Sheriff of
      /Cambridgeshire/, for Election of the Knights of that Shire; because
      no County Day did intervene, between the Receipt of the Writ, and the
      Day of Appearance in the Parliament.

      Controverted Elections.

      /Ordered/, That all such as will question any Elections, now presently
      returned, shall do the same, by Petition, within Fourteen Days; and
      those that shall question any Elections, to be hereafter returned,
      shall likewise do the same, within Fourteen Days after their Return.

      Members doubly returned.

      Upon the Debate of granting Time to Those that are doubly returned,
      for making their Choice for which Place they will serve; and, upon
      Diversity of Opinions, some being for /Monday/ next, and some for
      longer Time: it was put to the Question, whether the Question should
      be first made for /Monday/ next, or for longer Time: It was

      /Resolved/, upon the Question, That the Question for /Monday/ should
      first be made.

      /Resolved/, upon the Question, That all such as are doubly returned,
      shall make their Choice, for which Place they will serve, on /Monday/
      next, or before.

      /Ordered/, That the Case of the Knights for /Buckinghamshire/ shall be
      excepted out of this general Order, "That such as are doubly returned
      shall make their Choice, for which Place to serve, on /Monday/ next,
      or before."

      Member admitted.

      Mr. /Serle/, an Inhabitant of /Taunton/, a Town in /Somersetshire/,
      lately much visited with the Sickness, returned a Burgess of this
      House.-After much Debate, whether he should presently-admitted into
      the House, or no: It was at length

      /Ordered/, That he shall be admitted into the House presently.

      Grand Committees.

      A Committee of the whole House, for Religion, to meet every /Monday/
      at Two of Clock in the Afternoon, in the House.

      [A Committee of] the whole House, for Grievances, to meet every
      [/Wednesday/ at] Two of Clock in the Afternoon, in the House.

      A Committee of the whole House, for Courts of Justice, to meet every
      /Friday/ at Two of Clock in the Afternoon, in the House.

      These Committees have Power to send for Writings, Books, Records,
      Papers, Officers, Parties, and Witnesses; and to assign and hear
      Counsel; and are to report their Opinions and Proceedings to the House.

      It was moved, That these Grand Committees might be ordered to have
      Power to make Sub-committees:

      But it was /Declared/ by the House, that That Power was incident upto
      them, without any further Order.


      /Ordered/, That it should be referred to the Committee for Privileges,
      to consider of the Claims and Interests of all such Boroughs as
      pretend to have any Title to return any Members to sit in this House.

      Committee for Trade.

      /Ordered/, A Committe of the whole House, for Trade, meet in the House
      every /Tuesday/ at Two of Clock in the Afternoon; and to have the like
      Power as the other Grand Committees of the whole House have.

      Irish Affairs.

      Upon the Question, whether the /Irish/ Affairs should be referred to a
      Committee of the whole House, or to a select Committee,

      The House was divided; and the Yeas went forth, and the Noes stayed in:

      Tellers for the Yea, Sir /Edward Bainton/, Sir /Rich.Luson/.

      Tellers for the Noe, Sir /Jo. Clotworthy/, Sir /H. Mildmay/.

      With the Yeas - - 165

      With the Notes - - 152

      /Resolved/, upon the Question, That the /Irish/ Affairs shall be
      referred to a Committee of the whole House, to meet To-morrow in the
      Afternoon at Two of Clock, in the House; and afterwards[every]
      /Thursday/, at the same Hour and Place; and this Committee is to have
      [the like Power as] the other Grand Committees of the whole House have.

      To meet To-morrow [at Eight of Clock.]
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