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[Covenanted Reformation] Re: Welcome, wayward Covenanters....

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  • Walt
    Hi Willena, I do hope you speak to the Elders, over the phone, or in person to have a more balanced approach to the charges against them. I m absolutely sure
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 30, 2006
      Hi Willena,

      I do hope you speak to the Elders, over the phone, or in person to
      have a more balanced approach to the charges against them. I'm
      absolutely sure everything is not contained in the written record, and
      things often change from what someone wrote, and then later admits or
      denies. We all do this in our own lives and it seems to be human nature.

      I'm sure before you would leave us that your Scriptural arguments
      would be well done. For some reason I thought you were outside of the
      Edmonton group and lived elsewhere in Canada. It is indeed a shame
      that for 7 months you have felt that way, and it really does make me
      feel more isolated than you being away from local fellowship.

      All this is going to boil down to whether an extraordinary,
      international Session is lawful in the eyes of Scripture, and whether
      or not Elders must be local. If you feel isolated and left alone in a
      local society, I don't think we have a leg to stand on to support
      local presbyterian societies or sessions. The current criticism has
      been those of us out in separate locations, worldwide, and especially
      those in the societies have no ministers or elders to support their
      day-to-day or weekly spiritual needs, and that only local,
      congregational style societies fully indepedent and functioning on
      their own can serve this purpose. An international, extraordinary
      session is not only unlawful in the minds of some, but is...what did I
      hear recently...a innovation when someone uses the internet or phone
      to communicate. Everything must be local and congregational in style.

      Well, I see even this idea is wholly inadequate if you feel the way
      you have felt the past 7 months. Perhaps the idea of fully funded
      (each society has to have its own separate funding as I understand
      from speaking with some) and comingling of funds between societies
      without the congregation consent (or at least asking permission)
      should not be practiced or promoted. This way each society is (or
      should be) responsible for supporting their own Elders, any local
      staff, etc. The whole concept reminds me of when I was a Baptist, but
      without use of the internet, phones and other forms of communication
      that make Session decisions apparantly unlawful, I understand why the
      local society or congregation must be solely operating in the General
      Meeting concept desired by some. This concept will be further refined
      to give it the look and feel like presbyterianism in due time, but for
      now lets get away from this internet evil and rip the phones out of
      the walls so we can congregate into local heavenly fellowship.

      Well, I am looking for the next Scriptural arguments over the internet
      from my fellow colleagues, provided, this would not be considered a
      double standard where they can congregate over the web, over the
      phone, and unite into one formal pleading and rendered decision. It
      certainly would not be right to forbid Elders from this method of
      coming together as two or three, with Christ in the midst, and making
      a lawful and faithful decision, but allow it themselves in their

      I was thinking recently. Wow, all of the membership interviews that
      were taken over the phone, and the communicate exams, over the phone
      between the Elders and our dear members, are all unlawful due to the
      evil in this method of presbyterianism (which I understand is no
      presbyterianism at all). They are all void ab initio from the start,
      and so membership is no membership at all simple because no court can
      operate in this fashion...it must be local and face-to-face.

      Well, I don't by the arguments, and am waiting as the argument
      continues to change and change from week to week. I'm no baptist any
      longer, and I've been so blessed by speaking to our members and our
      Elders over the phone, and communicating by email, and even using the
      modern marvel of a plane to fly and visit families face-to-face. It
      certainly is not ordinary in the time of the Lord's Apostles, or
      Prophets, or courts to act this way, but perhaps it is extraordinary
      in an unsettled state of the church. However, in the eyes of an
      omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God of heaven and earth, it is
      just another means of grace we have been given.

      Again, if you decide to reject the oath and declare our court unlawful
      on its face as being no presbyterian court at all, I do welcome and
      would be ever so blessed by your scriptural arguments on the matter.
      I'm waiting as I weed through all the smoke and allegation that seems
      to be ever so changing week by week.

      Thank you for writing. I hope you'll send me your email one day. I
      know it is not the best method, but I would enjoy the fellowship out
      here away from the Edmonton society.

      For the cause of Christ,

      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Willena Flewelling
      <wrose@...> wrote:
      > Hi Walt,
      > I appreciate your input, and thank you for your concern. I thank you
      > also for your offer to email me or speak on the phone, but I must
      > I have been with the Edmonton congregation since June 1995. I became a
      > member in January 1998, and a communicant in June 1999. I am not
      > prepared to jump ship just yet. I'll wait and see what the elders have
      > in store for us in the coming weeks. I have done a fair bit of reading
      > too, and if it does come to jumping ship, it will be an informed
      > Willena
      > Walt wrote:
      > >
      > > Willena,
      > >
      > > I could not help but to read through your posts and share with you how
      > > frustrating it can be alone and away from other covenanter fellowship.
      > > Fortunately, many, if not all, on this site who claim some level of
      > > covenanter distinctives have local churches to attend, and have built
      > > a strong friendship with their local congregation. They get to visit
      > > their Pastors each week and enjoy time with their Elders face-to-face.
      > > It is sad that those of us in the wilderness do not have the same
      > > sort of ordinary Pastoral love and care that our covenanter brothers
      > > and sisters have at present, but do not be discouraged. Although we
      > > have not been blessed with a large following as others, and perhaps
      > > may end up with even fewer as our brothers and sisters leave for other
      > > more profitable congregations and more (in their eyes) faithful
      > > Ministers and Elders, I would encourage you to weather out this storm
      > > before you jump ship if things get more stormy. Yes, I admit if we
      > > look around at our brothers on this site and others who are
      > > covenanters, they have things much better in the eyes and minds of
      > > many on this site. Clearly, at every turn, we seem to make the
      > > largest and most public mistakes out of all the covenanter churches
      > > out there, and our three Elders have always been considered the most
      > > unfaithful and tyrannical (as the new saying spreads across the web)
      > > than others. I remember the storm over headcoverings...I just wanted
      > > to bury my head below the pillow and let it pass. Some of the things
      > > I read made me think we were like the most evil covenanter
      > > Presbyterians that came along, and there are other things that I'm
      > > sure you hear day in and day out. At this pace, I suspect we will
      > > have enough members for a couple local sessions in, maybe, perhaps,
      > > the next 10,000 years. I do hope it comes sooner, but it sure looks
      > > pretty stormy right now, and from discussions I've had with one of the
      > > Elders today, listening to both sides of the story on key questions I
      > > have in my own research, I suspect few will want to remain members in
      > > the RPNA(GM) as it is my opinion that people have made up their minds.
      > > If I can call you, and share my thoughts along side of your other
      > > friends who you speak about below, would you email me as I cannot find
      > > your email in the list that was previously used on our site.
      > > Unfortunately, I don't have your number either, otherwise I would call
      > > you today to chat. I share with you all the things above hoping that
      > > you will email me privately so we can chat before your frustration
      > > level rises further, and perhaps I can share with you my thoughts and
      > > arguments in favor of the Elders and their decisions. I have some
      > > ideas from studying the many documents, and detailing out the issues,
      > > so that maybe it will be helpful to you as well. I believe it would
      > > be worth a shot. Let me know if you are interested. Please give me a
      > > chance if you don't mind.
      > >
      > > May the Lord be with you.
      > > Walt.
      > >
      > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com>, Willena
      > > <wrose@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Hi Katrina,
      > > >
      > > > >>> I thought of your **Willena** comments of not
      > > > being ministered to for the last seven months...and wondered what
      > > > really caused that? Why Willena did that happen? Was it just you
      > > > went throught that or are there others having this experience? <<<
      > > >
      > > > To tell you the truth, I don't know why. I hate going by
      perceptions or
      > > > speculation alone, because I know how easy it is to come to the
      > > > conclusions that way. But as I have nothing else to go on, it
      > > appears to
      > > > me it's because they know I am good friends with some who are now
      > > > excommunicated or who have spoken publicly against things the elders
      > > > have done in the past year.
      > > >
      > > > Willena
      > > >
      > >
      > >
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