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Medical Ethics question(s)

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  • Adam J. Boone
    Dear list, I covet some(any) comments on an ethical issue I am dealing with for a paper in nursing school. While I have not personal assumed care for anyone
    Message 1 of 6 , Nov 25, 2006
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      Dear list,
      I covet some(any) comments on an ethical issue I am dealing with for a
      paper in nursing school. While I have not personal assumed care for
      anyone with this condition, I have seen it in the hospital and it makes
      my heart break.
      The condition is ancephaly. This is a condition where a child is formed
      in such a way that it does not posses a brain above the stem. Most of
      these babies die before or at birth but some may live for hours and
      even days on their own.
      I do not pretend to know what it would be like to have such a child so
      i do not intent to offend anyone and I hope i do not offend anyone with
      questions regarding this type of case.
      My questions would be regarding what should be done for this child if
      it is living. Should medical professionals do everything in their power
      to keep this child alive with the most advanced technology? or should
      they let a child like this pass without any interventions? Who decides?
      What if the child is a ward of the state?
      More foundational questions for this issue are things regarding what
      constitutes being human and is a withdrawl of medical support to "let
      nature take its course" the same as active killing?

      I would like to hear comments on this issue...I have googled on these
      issues and can not find any under even the sovereign grace umbrella who
      try and tackle hard cases such as these.
      adam boone
    • puritanone
      ... for a ... for ... makes ... Hi, Adam. The sad fact is that modern Protestant scholarship in the realm of medical ethics is typically second rate at best,
      Message 2 of 6 , Nov 28, 2006
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        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Adam J. Boone"
        <leah.adam@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear list,
        > I covet some(any) comments on an ethical issue I am dealing with
        for a
        > paper in nursing school. While I have not personal assumed care
        for
        > anyone with this condition, I have seen it in the hospital and it
        makes
        > my heart break.
        > The condition is ancephaly.

        Hi, Adam. The sad fact is that modern Protestant scholarship in the
        realm of medical ethics is typically second rate at best, for a
        variety of reasons. Some of the reasons include these:

        - Many or most professing Protestants have abandoned such historical
        Christian and Biblical positions that artificial contraception as
        well as abortion are wrong. This is because they have been subtly
        deceived by modern humanism to some degree in the realm of medical
        ethics.

        - Due to widespread heresy and apostasy, true Protestant ranks have
        considerably thinned, so that the remaining true Protestant churches
        often lack the resources to have educational institutions which can
        appropriately address such issues. Scholarship in this area
        requires people who are well studied in medicine as well as
        theology, and educational institutions in which to work in.

        - Some true Protestants have shunned the organized church and chosen
        the loner route. (I realize they think no current organized church
        is good enough, but as you can tell, I reject that thesis. Of
        course, my own view is that the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland
        is the one that people should choose, but I realize most on this
        list will disagree with me on that one.) Sorry, but do not expect
        scholarship of this nature from loners. It requires organized
        churches with resouces and wherewithal to establish educational
        institutions.

        - Many true Protestant churches have lacked a vision for creating
        educational institutions. (I personally hope this is an area that
        the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland itself will improve in.)

        So given the sad state of things, I actually think a Christian today
        considering medical ethics probably should start their research
        looking at Roman Catholic medical ethics scholarship. They have had
        the resources to engage in the scholarship, and many of their
        medical presuppositions are essentially the same as what they would
        be for a Biblical Protestant.

        eg, on the topic of anencephaly , http://www.ncbcenter.org/em/0611-
        1.aspx gives a good starting point. Sadly, though, such articles
        generally refer to the Papal "Holy Father" as the authority, instead
        of giving the scriptural grounds.

        - Parnell McCarter
      • Leah & Adam Boone
        thanks parnell, I ve been there, and sadly the catholic position on sanctity of life has way too much to do with the whether or not someone get to be baptized
        Message 3 of 6 , Dec 3, 2006
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          thanks parnell,
          I've been there, and sadly the catholic position on sanctity of life has way too much to do with the whether or not someone get to be baptized before they die.
          adam

           
          On 11/28/06, puritanone <joseph.mccarter@...> wrote:

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Adam J. Boone"
          <leah.adam@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear list,
          > I covet some(any) comments on an ethical issue I am dealing with
          for a
          > paper in nursing school. While I have not personal assumed care
          for
          > anyone with this condition, I have seen it in the hospital and it
          makes
          > my heart break.
          > The condition is ancephaly.

          Hi, Adam. The sad fact is that modern Protestant scholarship in the
          realm of medical ethics is typically second rate at best, for a
          variety of reasons. Some of the reasons include these:

          - Many or most professing Protestants have abandoned such historical
          Christian and Biblical positions that artificial contraception as
          well as abortion are wrong. This is because they have been subtly
          deceived by modern humanism to some degree in the realm of medical
          ethics.

          - Due to widespread heresy and apostasy, true Protestant ranks have
          considerably thinned, so that the remaining true Protestant churches
          often lack the resources to have educational institutions which can
          appropriately address such issues. Scholarship in this area
          requires people who are well studied in medicine as well as
          theology, and educational institutions in which to work in.

          - Some true Protestants have shunned the organized church and chosen
          the loner route. (I realize they think no current organized church
          is good enough, but as you can tell, I reject that thesis. Of
          course, my own view is that the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland
          is the one that people should choose, but I realize most on this
          list will disagree with me on that one.) Sorry, but do not expect
          scholarship of this nature from loners. It requires organized
          churches with resouces and wherewithal to establish educational
          institutions.

          - Many true Protestant churches have lacked a vision for creating
          educational institutions. (I personally hope this is an area that
          the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland itself will improve in.)

          So given the sad state of things, I actually think a Christian today
          considering medical ethics probably should start their research
          looking at Roman Catholic medical ethics scholarship. They have had
          the resources to engage in the scholarship, and many of their
          medical presuppositions are essentially the same as what they would
          be for a Biblical Protestant.

          eg, on the topic of anencephaly , http://www.ncbcenter.org/em/0611-
          1.aspx gives a good starting point. Sadly, though, such articles
          generally refer to the Papal "Holy Father" as the authority, instead
          of giving the scriptural grounds.

          - Parnell McCarter


        • Walt
          Dear Adam, I have recently went through some of these legal, ethical and moral issues in designing a medical power of attorney for my advocate/doctor that
          Message 4 of 6 , Dec 3, 2006
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            Dear Adam,

            I have recently went through some of these legal, ethical and moral
            issues in designing a medical power of attorney for my advocate/doctor
            that would implement procedures in the event I was in a medical
            emergency or persistent vegetative state.

            Let me take a closer look at the detailed wording I drafted to see how
            I worded the issues you raised below. Clearly, this was not based
            upon the Roman Catholic tradition of my current parents, and I did
            make my father understand his role in case something happened to me.
            I chose a Doctor that would follow my instructions rather than allow
            the wishy washy Roman catholics get involved with their varied
            position on the matter. There is a difference giving a Doctor
            instructions in using sound medical decisions rather than giving my
            Roman catholic parents the opportunity be emotionally influenced by
            their local Priest or Bishop. Actually, I did not need to appeal to
            Rome's research on the matter as their are excellent biblical research
            out there on the subject if one cares to look for the diamonds in the
            ruff.

            Indeed, what it boils down to in my research is artificial heroic and
            artificial non-heroic measures, but this is not so easy to define. It
            is important to define what both mean specificially, and then add to
            this additional issues like:

            age of patient
            availability of resources
            medicual futility
            current stage of disease course (are the 24 hours from death)
            maturity of technology (what 100 years ago didn't work works today, or
            diseases that killed our ancestors are easily diagnosed and treated today)

            We are born in the image of God, and commanded to use natural means to
            preserve and protect life. As the creation of God, He ultimately is
            defined our ultimate death. As opposed to natural means of
            preservation, we have artificial means and this is where the heroic
            and non-heroic means come into definition.

            It would be a heroic means to put you on an automatic defibrillator
            and possible shock me out of a fatal heart rythem, and later a
            mechanical ventilation and potent blood pressure supporting
            medications in the event of a massive heart attack. However, once my
            position returns to normal, then artificial non-heroic means are
            installed with possible artificial feeding tubes...which are not normal.

            Here is where it gets tricky if I'm a vegetable after the attack, and
            am forced into a nursing home and artificial feeding. What are the
            limits to artificial, non-heroic means of sustaining life?

            In your case below, I would need to do a bit more research and give it
            some thought as I don't believe I addressed it in my POA.

            Hope some of this is helpful and here are a couple links that you
            might have helpful that might be as good, or better, than what Rome
            may be teaching its membership and non-members.

            http://bmei.org/jbem/volume5/num1/hall_providence_in_the_end_of_life.php

            http://www.pcahistory.org/pca/index.html (there was a paper on the
            subject here, but I cannot find it going through the list)

            Hope this helps for the time being. I think Parnell knows my dear
            love for Rome and how they have taken the hearts and minds of my
            parents, so I'm sure he will be ok with my perhaps strong comments.

            May the Lord be with you,
            Walt.

            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Leah & Adam Boone"
            <leah.adam@...> wrote:
            >
            > thanks parnell,
            > I've been there, and sadly the catholic position on sanctity of life
            has way
            > too much to do with the whether or not someone get to be baptized before
            > they die.
            > adam
            >
            >
            > On 11/28/06, puritanone <joseph.mccarter@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > --- In
            covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com<covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com>,
            > > "Adam J. Boone"
            > > <leah.adam@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Dear list,
            > > > I covet some(any) comments on an ethical issue I am dealing with
            > > for a
            > > > paper in nursing school. While I have not personal assumed care
            > > for
            > > > anyone with this condition, I have seen it in the hospital and it
            > > makes
            > > > my heart break.
            > > > The condition is ancephaly.
            > >
            > > Hi, Adam. The sad fact is that modern Protestant scholarship in the
            > > realm of medical ethics is typically second rate at best, for a
            > > variety of reasons. Some of the reasons include these:
            > >
            > > - Many or most professing Protestants have abandoned such historical
            > > Christian and Biblical positions that artificial contraception as
            > > well as abortion are wrong. This is because they have been subtly
            > > deceived by modern humanism to some degree in the realm of medical
            > > ethics.
            > >
            > > - Due to widespread heresy and apostasy, true Protestant ranks have
            > > considerably thinned, so that the remaining true Protestant churches
            > > often lack the resources to have educational institutions which can
            > > appropriately address such issues. Scholarship in this area
            > > requires people who are well studied in medicine as well as
            > > theology, and educational institutions in which to work in.
            > >
            > > - Some true Protestants have shunned the organized church and chosen
            > > the loner route. (I realize they think no current organized church
            > > is good enough, but as you can tell, I reject that thesis. Of
            > > course, my own view is that the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland
            > > is the one that people should choose, but I realize most on this
            > > list will disagree with me on that one.) Sorry, but do not expect
            > > scholarship of this nature from loners. It requires organized
            > > churches with resouces and wherewithal to establish educational
            > > institutions.
            > >
            > > - Many true Protestant churches have lacked a vision for creating
            > > educational institutions. (I personally hope this is an area that
            > > the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland itself will improve in.)
            > >
            > > So given the sad state of things, I actually think a Christian today
            > > considering medical ethics probably should start their research
            > > looking at Roman Catholic medical ethics scholarship. They have had
            > > the resources to engage in the scholarship, and many of their
            > > medical presuppositions are essentially the same as what they would
            > > be for a Biblical Protestant.
            > >
            > > eg, on the topic of anencephaly , http://www.ncbcenter.org/em/0611-
            > > 1.aspx gives a good starting point. Sadly, though, such articles
            > > generally refer to the Papal "Holy Father" as the authority, instead
            > > of giving the scriptural grounds.
            > >
            > > - Parnell McCarter
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
          • Walt
            Adam, I found the position paper here: http://www.pcahistory.org/pca/2-378.html It may be helpful for your research. Sorry about overlooking it previously as
            Message 5 of 6 , Dec 3, 2006
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              Adam,

              I found the position paper here:

              http://www.pcahistory.org/pca/2-378.html

              It may be helpful for your research. Sorry about overlooking it
              previously as I was looking for a different title name.

              Walt.

              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Leah & Adam Boone"
              <leah.adam@...> wrote:
              >
              > thanks parnell,
              > I've been there, and sadly the catholic position on sanctity of life
              has way
              > too much to do with the whether or not someone get to be baptized before
              > they die.
              > adam
              >
              >
              > On 11/28/06, puritanone <joseph.mccarter@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > --- In
              covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com<covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com>,
              > > "Adam J. Boone"
              > > <leah.adam@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Dear list,
              > > > I covet some(any) comments on an ethical issue I am dealing with
              > > for a
              > > > paper in nursing school. While I have not personal assumed care
              > > for
              > > > anyone with this condition, I have seen it in the hospital and it
              > > makes
              > > > my heart break.
              > > > The condition is ancephaly.
              > >
              > > Hi, Adam. The sad fact is that modern Protestant scholarship in the
              > > realm of medical ethics is typically second rate at best, for a
              > > variety of reasons. Some of the reasons include these:
              > >
              > > - Many or most professing Protestants have abandoned such historical
              > > Christian and Biblical positions that artificial contraception as
              > > well as abortion are wrong. This is because they have been subtly
              > > deceived by modern humanism to some degree in the realm of medical
              > > ethics.
              > >
              > > - Due to widespread heresy and apostasy, true Protestant ranks have
              > > considerably thinned, so that the remaining true Protestant churches
              > > often lack the resources to have educational institutions which can
              > > appropriately address such issues. Scholarship in this area
              > > requires people who are well studied in medicine as well as
              > > theology, and educational institutions in which to work in.
              > >
              > > - Some true Protestants have shunned the organized church and chosen
              > > the loner route. (I realize they think no current organized church
              > > is good enough, but as you can tell, I reject that thesis. Of
              > > course, my own view is that the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland
              > > is the one that people should choose, but I realize most on this
              > > list will disagree with me on that one.) Sorry, but do not expect
              > > scholarship of this nature from loners. It requires organized
              > > churches with resouces and wherewithal to establish educational
              > > institutions.
              > >
              > > - Many true Protestant churches have lacked a vision for creating
              > > educational institutions. (I personally hope this is an area that
              > > the Free Presbyterian Church of Scotland itself will improve in.)
              > >
              > > So given the sad state of things, I actually think a Christian today
              > > considering medical ethics probably should start their research
              > > looking at Roman Catholic medical ethics scholarship. They have had
              > > the resources to engage in the scholarship, and many of their
              > > medical presuppositions are essentially the same as what they would
              > > be for a Biblical Protestant.
              > >
              > > eg, on the topic of anencephaly , http://www.ncbcenter.org/em/0611-
              > > 1.aspx gives a good starting point. Sadly, though, such articles
              > > generally refer to the Papal "Holy Father" as the authority, instead
              > > of giving the scriptural grounds.
              > >
              > > - Parnell McCarter
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • Deejay
              Sorry, Nate, I ve only just seen (here) why you posted as you did at Come out. But, I have had to deal with not too dissimilar medical ethical issues over the
              Message 6 of 6 , Dec 3, 2006
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                Sorry, Nate, I've only just seen (here) why you posted as you did at Come out. 

                But, I have had to deal with not too dissimilar medical ethical issues over the last few years in my own life, and have found THIS  site a great resource.   Whether it will be of any use for the specific thing you are dealign with I couldn't say. But its worth checking out.

                ~Deejay


                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Adam J. Boone" <leah.adam@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear list,
                > I covet some(any) comments on an ethical issue I am dealing with for a
                > paper in nursing school. While I have not personal assumed care for
                > anyone with this condition, I have seen it in the hospital and it makes
                > my heart break.
                > The condition is ancephaly. This is a condition where a child is formed
                > in such a way that it does not posses a brain above the stem. Most of
                > these babies die before or at birth but some may live for hours and
                > even days on their own.
                > I do not pretend to know what it would be like to have such a child so
                > i do not intent to offend anyone and I hope i do not offend anyone with
                > questions regarding this type of case.
                > My questions would be regarding what should be done for this child if
                > it is living. Should medical professionals do everything in their power
                > to keep this child alive with the most advanced technology? or should
                > they let a child like this pass without any interventions? Who decides?
                > What if the child is a ward of the state?
                > More foundational questions for this issue are things regarding what
                > constitutes being human and is a withdrawl of medical support to "let
                > nature take its course" the same as active killing?
                >
                > I would like to hear comments on this issue...I have googled on these
                > issues and can not find any under even the sovereign grace umbrella who
                > try and tackle hard cases such as these.
                > adam boone
                >

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