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Re: Familiar Frienship?

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  • gmw
    ... I m glad you asked on my take on it, because that s all I have is my take. I m not a big fan of taking a personal opinion, and making it a hard and fast
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 10, 2006
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      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Cheryl Grenon
      <knoxknoxwhosthere@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Jerry,
      >
      > Could you, or some of the other non-RPNA Covenanters please explain
      > your take on familiar fellowship?

      I'm glad you asked on my take on it, because that's all I have is my take.

      I'm not a big fan of taking a personal opinion, and making it a hard
      and fast rule for all people to hold to.

      I believe the Bible tells us not to keep company with drunks,
      fornicators, blasphemers, and other such notorious sinners.

      While some may find the "Well if you wouldn't hang out with a
      drunkard, then how can you hang out with a person who refuses to join
      our church" type argument to be logically convincing, I just shake my
      head at such things.

      I have friends of various degrees -- Covenanter friends, Reformed
      friends that aren't convinced of Covenanting principals, basic Bible
      Church type friends that don't even know what I'm talking about when I
      bring up catechisms and psalmody, Anabaptists, and guys that have
      never professed any kind of faith that I can discern. I have varying
      degrees of "fellowship" with these people -- of course I cannot have
      the same intimate, mutually edifying and influential type of
      familiarity and fellowship with some of those friends as I can have
      with others, but I think there can still be some level of friendliness
      and charity with each of them.

      I might not be explaining this very well, especially for those of you
      who have been thusfar using a far different framework of understanding.

      "The point is, that this Christian brother from another denomination
      that I wouldn't attend, did all these things for me and wouldn't
      accept a dime in payment."

      Your not being able in good conscience to attend this good Samaritan's
      church does not preclude him from being --

      1). A Christian

      2). A Christian that God sent to bless you.

      3). A Christian that God will reward for his charity towards you.

      4). A Christian that you can have some degree of friendship with.

      Consider the following statements and tell me if they sound like what
      you've been taught:

      "We are not unsocial, or morose, or indifferent to the kindly regards
      of other followers of Christ. In the language of our Testimony,—they,
      Reformed Presbyterians, "sincerely lament that the principles of their
      Testimony should prove so opposite to the practice of many churches
      containing many of the saints of God; but they had no alternative;
      they must act thus, or renounce their faithfulness. They cheerfully
      appreciate the talents and piety of their acquaintances. And, as
      opportunity may offer, commune with them as friends and as Christians;
      but they cannot extend to any one the right hand of fellowship in the
      visible church upon any other principles than those contained in their
      Declaration and Testimony." (Test., Hist. Part last p.)" (Covenanter
      Magazine, "Occasional Hearing," 1852.)

      "We declare our esteem of and love for all the godly in these lands,
      who have the root of the matter in them, and love our Lord Jesus
      Christ in sincerity, who are studying godliness and have sad hearts
      for the tokens of God's sad displeasure, and the sins and abominations
      procuring the same, notwithstanding of their not being of the same
      sentiments and mind with us as to some parts of our testimony and
      practice" (Matthew Hutchison, The Reformed Presbyterian Church in
      Scotland, 1893).

      "In proposing the above Terms of communion, we wish a difference to be
      made between persons holding, proclaiming, and propagating sentiments
      in religion, opposite to those which are recognized by our Terms, and
      persons who may be, comparatively, ignorant, or have private views of
      their own, but are willing to be farther instructed. The former must
      be positively debarred from church fellowship, whereas milder
      treatment is due to the latter. Let it also be remembered, that there
      is a material difference between church-communion, properly so called,
      and private occasional communion, with those who may agree in the
      great essentials of salvation, through a crucified Saviour. Church
      communion, among the professing members of Christ�s mystical body, we
      consider as lying chiefly in their conscientiously walking together,
      and enjoying mutual comfort in the regular observation of all public
      Gospel ordinances, in general, and joint participation of the solemn
      seals of the new covenant, in particular; as these are dispensed by
      the ministers of religion, who are vested with office, according to
      the laws of Christ. This, necessarily, requires unanimity in all those
      things which belong to the constitution of the church in her organized
      capacity; such as, doctrines to be believed, a certain mode of worship
      to be observed a form of government to be exercised, and discipline to
      be administered. As it doth not appear that the church, in her
      complete and organized capacity, can exist without any of these
      articles, so neither is it easy to conceive how persons holding
      jarring sentiments on these important subjects can consistently enjoy
      church fellowship with each other. Private Christian communion, we
      apprehend, consists in the joint discharge of those religious duties
      which are not peculiar to official characters as such, but are common
      to them and all Christians at large, in their individual capacity. Of
      this kind we may reckon reading the Scriptures; religious
      conversation, as opportunity offers, in the course of providence;
      occasional prayer with the sick; when desired; praising God in the
      family, when providentially lodged together; joint craving of Heaven�s
      blessing on the provision of our table, and such like. From private
      and occasional communion, with Christians of other denominations, in
      things like these, we never thought of debarring our people; though we
      cannot help being of opinion, that church fellowship should ever be
      regulated by some such scriptural terms as those which we have
      endeavoured to exhibit and explain" (John Reid, on behalf of the
      Reformed Presbytery, An Explanation and Defense of the Terms of
      Communion).

      Jasper's not a Covie, and I've been trying to get him to have a cup of
      coffee with me for years now!

      gmw.
    • Susan Nye Ferrell
      Dear Jerry, I have almost never (if ever, the memory fades) posted on this list but have read posts on and off. Having followed this latest thread with some
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 11, 2006
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        Dear Jerry,
        I have almost never (if ever, the memory fades) posted on
        this list but have read posts on and off. Having followed this latest thread
        with some interest, I wanted to thank you for your posting of these various
        covenanter excerpts showing how they saw others who didn't agree with them
        100 percent in doctrine. With Christian Regards,

        Susan Nye Ferrell


        >From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
        >Reply-To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
        >To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
        >Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Familiar Frienship?
        >Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:54:35 -0000
        >
        >--- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Cheryl Grenon
        ><knoxknoxwhosthere@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > Dear Jerry,
        > >
        > > Could you, or some of the other non-RPNA Covenanters please explain
        > > your take on familiar fellowship?
        >
        >I'm glad you asked on my take on it, because that's all I have is my take.
        >
        >I'm not a big fan of taking a personal opinion, and making it a hard
        >and fast rule for all people to hold to.
        >
        >I believe the Bible tells us not to keep company with drunks,
        >fornicators, blasphemers, and other such notorious sinners.
        >
        >While some may find the "Well if you wouldn't hang out with a
        >drunkard, then how can you hang out with a person who refuses to join
        >our church" type argument to be logically convincing, I just shake my
        >head at such things.
        >
        >I have friends of various degrees -- Covenanter friends, Reformed
        >friends that aren't convinced of Covenanting principals, basic Bible
        >Church type friends that don't even know what I'm talking about when I
        >bring up catechisms and psalmody, Anabaptists, and guys that have
        >never professed any kind of faith that I can discern. I have varying
        >degrees of "fellowship" with these people -- of course I cannot have
        >the same intimate, mutually edifying and influential type of
        >familiarity and fellowship with some of those friends as I can have
        >with others, but I think there can still be some level of friendliness
        >and charity with each of them.
        >
        >I might not be explaining this very well, especially for those of you
        >who have been thusfar using a far different framework of understanding.
        >
        >"The point is, that this Christian brother from another denomination
        >that I wouldn't attend, did all these things for me and wouldn't
        >accept a dime in payment."
        >
        >Your not being able in good conscience to attend this good Samaritan's
        >church does not preclude him from being --
        >
        >1). A Christian
        >
        >2). A Christian that God sent to bless you.
        >
        >3). A Christian that God will reward for his charity towards you.
        >
        >4). A Christian that you can have some degree of friendship with.
        >
        >Consider the following statements and tell me if they sound like what
        >you've been taught:
        >
        >"We are not unsocial, or morose, or indifferent to the kindly regards
        >of other followers of Christ. In the language of our Testimony,�they,
        >Reformed Presbyterians, "sincerely lament that the principles of their
        >Testimony should prove so opposite to the practice of many churches
        >containing many of the saints of God; but they had no alternative;
        >they must act thus, or renounce their faithfulness. They cheerfully
        >appreciate the talents and piety of their acquaintances. And, as
        >opportunity may offer, commune with them as friends and as Christians;
        >but they cannot extend to any one the right hand of fellowship in the
        >visible church upon any other principles than those contained in their
        >Declaration and Testimony." (Test., Hist. Part last p.)" (Covenanter
        >Magazine, "Occasional Hearing," 1852.)
        >
        >"We declare our esteem of and love for all the godly in these lands,
        >who have the root of the matter in them, and love our Lord Jesus
        >Christ in sincerity, who are studying godliness and have sad hearts
        >for the tokens of God's sad displeasure, and the sins and abominations
        >procuring the same, notwithstanding of their not being of the same
        >sentiments and mind with us as to some parts of our testimony and
        >practice" (Matthew Hutchison, The Reformed Presbyterian Church in
        >Scotland, 1893).
        >
        >"In proposing the above Terms of communion, we wish a difference to be
        >made between persons holding, proclaiming, and propagating sentiments
        >in religion, opposite to those which are recognized by our Terms, and
        >persons who may be, comparatively, ignorant, or have private views of
        >their own, but are willing to be farther instructed. The former must
        >be positively debarred from church fellowship, whereas milder
        >treatment is due to the latter. Let it also be remembered, that there
        >is a material difference between church-communion, properly so called,
        >and private occasional communion, with those who may agree in the
        >great essentials of salvation, through a crucified Saviour. Church
        >communion, among the professing members of Christ�s mystical body,
        >we
        >consider as lying chiefly in their conscientiously walking together,
        >and enjoying mutual comfort in the regular observation of all public
        >Gospel ordinances, in general, and joint participation of the solemn
        >seals of the new covenant, in particular; as these are dispensed by
        >the ministers of religion, who are vested with office, according to
        >the laws of Christ. This, necessarily, requires unanimity in all those
        >things which belong to the constitution of the church in her organized
        >capacity; such as, doctrines to be believed, a certain mode of worship
        >to be observed a form of government to be exercised, and discipline to
        >be administered. As it doth not appear that the church, in her
        >complete and organized capacity, can exist without any of these
        >articles, so neither is it easy to conceive how persons holding
        >jarring sentiments on these important subjects can consistently enjoy
        >church fellowship with each other. Private Christian communion, we
        >apprehend, consists in the joint discharge of those religious duties
        >which are not peculiar to official characters as such, but are common
        >to them and all Christians at large, in their individual capacity. Of
        >this kind we may reckon reading the Scriptures; religious
        >conversation, as opportunity offers, in the course of providence;
        >occasional prayer with the sick; when desired; praising God in the
        >family, when providentially lodged together; joint craving of
        >Heaven�s
        >blessing on the provision of our table, and such like. From private
        >and occasional communion, with Christians of other denominations, in
        >things like these, we never thought of debarring our people; though we
        >cannot help being of opinion, that church fellowship should ever be
        >regulated by some such scriptural terms as those which we have
        >endeavoured to exhibit and explain" (John Reid, on behalf of the
        >Reformed Presbytery, An Explanation and Defense of the Terms of
        >Communion).
        >
        >Jasper's not a Covie, and I've been trying to get him to have a cup of
        >coffee with me for years now!
        >
        >gmw.
        >
        >
        >
        >
      • timmopussycat
        ... of ... Tim adds - If I lived closer to you guys, I d drop by to down a Guiness in your company right now! Tim
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 11, 2006
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          > >From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
          > >Reply-To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          > >To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          > >Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Familiar Frienship?
          > >Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:54:35 -0000

          > >
          > >Jasper's not a Covie, and I've been trying to get him to have a cup
          of
          > >coffee with me for years now!
          > >
          > >gmw.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          Tim adds - If I lived closer to you guys, I'd drop by to down a Guiness
          in your company right now!
          Tim
        • gmw
          You re very welcome, Susan. gmw. ... posted on ... latest thread ... various ... with them
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 11, 2006
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            You're very welcome, Susan.

            gmw.

            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Nye Ferrell"
            <UKPuritan40@...> wrote:
            >
            > Dear Jerry,
            > I have almost never (if ever, the memory fades)
            posted on
            > this list but have read posts on and off. Having followed this
            latest thread
            > with some interest, I wanted to thank you for your posting of these
            various
            > covenanter excerpts showing how they saw others who didn't agree
            with them
            > 100 percent in doctrine. With Christian Regards,
            >
            > Susan Nye Ferrell
          • gmw
            And if you come, I m buying. gmw.
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 11, 2006
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              And if you come, I'm buying.

              gmw.

              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "timmopussycat"
              <timmopussycat@...> wrote:
              >
              > > >From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@>
              > > >Reply-To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              > > >To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              > > >Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Familiar Frienship?
              > > >Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:54:35 -0000
              >
              > > >
              > > >Jasper's not a Covie, and I've been trying to get him to have a cup
              > of
              > > >coffee with me for years now!
              > > >
              > > >gmw.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > Tim adds - If I lived closer to you guys, I'd drop by to down a Guiness
              > in your company right now!
              > Tim
              >
            • desire_pure_heart
              Dear Cheryl; A big hug to you poor sister..... I was glad to hear that the Lord sent someone to assist you...makes one think of Christ s question of who was a
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 29, 2006
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                Dear Cheryl;

                A big hug to you poor sister.....
                I was glad to hear that the Lord sent someone to assist you...makes
                one think of Christ's question of who was a *Neighbour*...to the man
                left for dead along the road.

                Sadly, I can relate to your experience, after being Widowed, the
                greatest kindness coming from Grant's brother Danny who is member of
                the Christian Missionary Alliance....

                Confusion of the heart and soul is very hard to live with, but this
                is how to get past the misery, ***REMEMBER WHO THE LORD IS***

                I continue to pray for you dear sister,

                Blessings and peace,

                ~Katrina Schumacher~
                CRC Rimbey Alberta


                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Cheryl Grenon
                <knoxknoxwhosthere@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Jerry,
                >
                > Could you, or some of the other non-RPNA Covenanters please explain
                your take on familiar fellowship? This is one area of my thinking
                that has been thoroughly messed. I used to know how to relate to
                other Christians from other denominations, but since being in the
                RPNA, the teaching and example from at least one of the elders is, I
                suspect, not a faithful representation and could likely be
                considered downright uncharitable and maybe even extreme.
                >
                > A week or so ago my ancient van broke down outside the Christian
                school where my children attend. To make a long story short, one of
                the fathers of other children who attend there replaced my battery,
                my alternator, fixed the blinkers, filled the gas tank with over $100
                in gas, and cleaned the vehicle inside and out. He may have done
                other things as well, I don't know. The point is, that this
                Christian brother from another denomination that I wouldn't attend,
                did all these things for me and wouldn't accept a dime in payment. I
                was overcome. This came at a particularly crucial time since I was
                feeling somewhat abandoned by both God and man. The Lord used this
                brother to show me that I was not alone and that He still loves me,
                no matter what.
                >
                > I'm not sure what the boundaries are any more. Pathetic, isn't it?
                >
                > Cheryl
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message ----
                > From: gmw <raging.calvinist@...>
                > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 4:30:16 AM
                > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Familiar Frienship?
                >
                > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Jasper
                > <jasperh98@ ..> wrote:
                > >
                > > Hello to all. I am saddened to hear of strife between Christians
                > and along with so many others I pray that our merciful Lord may
                bring
                > healing to the broken relationships.
                > >
                > > Without delving here into any particulars of that issue, I
                noticed a
                > comment by Willena that prompts me to ask for clarification:
                > >
                > > "and to maintain a friendship with someone who didn't see things
                > > the same way would be familiar fellowship.. . and therefore
                > idolatry."
                > >
                > > Is this the covenantor understanding, and if so what would briefly
                > be the basis? Thank you.
                > >
                >
                > It sure is NOT my understanding, that's for sure. I think what
                you're
                > reading is Willena complaining against this tyranny, not agreeing
                with it.
                >
                > gmw.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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