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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Familiar Frienship?

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  • Cheryl Grenon
    Dear Jerry, Could you, or some of the other non-RPNA Covenanters please explain your take on familiar fellowship? This is one area of my thinking that has
    Message 1 of 8 , Nov 10, 2006
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      Dear Jerry,
       
      Could you, or some of the other non-RPNA Covenanters please explain your take on familiar fellowship?  This is one area of my thinking that has been thoroughly messed.  I used to know how to relate to other Christians from other denominations, but since being in the RPNA, the teaching and example from at least one of the elders is, I suspect,  not a faithful representation and could likely be considered downright uncharitable and maybe even extreme. 
       
      A week or so ago my ancient van broke down outside the Christian school where my children attend.   To make a long story short, one of the fathers of other children who attend there replaced my battery, my alternator, fixed the blinkers, filled the gas tank with over $100 in gas, and cleaned the vehicle inside and out.  He may have done other things as well, I don't know.  The point is, that this Christian brother from another denomination that I wouldn't attend, did all these things for me and wouldn't accept a dime in payment.  I was overcome.  This came at a particularly crucial time since I was feeling somewhat abandoned by both God and man.  The Lord used this brother to show me that I was not alone and that He still loves me, no matter what. 
       
      I'm not sure what the boundaries are any more.  Pathetic, isn't it?
       
      Cheryl

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: gmw <raging.calvinist@...>
      To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 4:30:16 AM
      Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Familiar Frienship?

      --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Jasper
      <jasperh98@. ..> wrote:

      >
      > Hello to all. I am saddened to hear of strife between Christians
      and along with so many others I pray that our merciful Lord may bring
      healing to the broken relationships.
      >
      > Without delving here into any particulars of that issue, I noticed a
      comment by Willena that prompts me to ask for clarification:
      >
      > "and to maintain a friendship with someone who didn't see things
      > the same way would be familiar fellowship.. . and therefore
      idolatry."
      >
      > Is this the covenantor understanding, and if so what would briefly
      be the basis? Thank you.
      >

      It sure is NOT my understanding, that's for sure. I think what you're
      reading is Willena complaining against this tyranny, not agreeing with it.

      gmw.




      Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
    • Jasper
      I have re-read what Willena wrote and I think I understand it better now. Thanks for the help. Jasper ... From: gmw To:
      Message 2 of 8 , Nov 10, 2006
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        I have re-read what Willena wrote and I think I understand it better now.  Thanks for the help.
         
        Jasper

        ----- Original Message ----
        From: gmw <raging.calvinist@...>
        To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 7:30:16 AM
        Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Familiar Frienship?

        --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Jasper
        <jasperh98@. ..> wrote:

        >
        > Hello to all. I am saddened to hear of strife between Christians
        and along with so many others I pray that our merciful Lord may bring
        healing to the broken relationships.
        >
        > Without delving here into any particulars of that issue, I noticed a
        comment by Willena that prompts me to ask for clarification:
        >
        > "and to maintain a friendship with someone who didn't see things
        > the same way would be familiar fellowship.. . and therefore
        idolatry."
        >
        > Is this the covenantor understanding, and if so what would briefly
        be the basis? Thank you.
        >

        It sure is NOT my understanding, that's for sure. I think what you're
        reading is Willena complaining against this tyranny, not agreeing with it.

        gmw.




        Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
      • gmw
        ... I m glad you asked on my take on it, because that s all I have is my take. I m not a big fan of taking a personal opinion, and making it a hard and fast
        Message 3 of 8 , Nov 10, 2006
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          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Cheryl Grenon
          <knoxknoxwhosthere@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Jerry,
          >
          > Could you, or some of the other non-RPNA Covenanters please explain
          > your take on familiar fellowship?

          I'm glad you asked on my take on it, because that's all I have is my take.

          I'm not a big fan of taking a personal opinion, and making it a hard
          and fast rule for all people to hold to.

          I believe the Bible tells us not to keep company with drunks,
          fornicators, blasphemers, and other such notorious sinners.

          While some may find the "Well if you wouldn't hang out with a
          drunkard, then how can you hang out with a person who refuses to join
          our church" type argument to be logically convincing, I just shake my
          head at such things.

          I have friends of various degrees -- Covenanter friends, Reformed
          friends that aren't convinced of Covenanting principals, basic Bible
          Church type friends that don't even know what I'm talking about when I
          bring up catechisms and psalmody, Anabaptists, and guys that have
          never professed any kind of faith that I can discern. I have varying
          degrees of "fellowship" with these people -- of course I cannot have
          the same intimate, mutually edifying and influential type of
          familiarity and fellowship with some of those friends as I can have
          with others, but I think there can still be some level of friendliness
          and charity with each of them.

          I might not be explaining this very well, especially for those of you
          who have been thusfar using a far different framework of understanding.

          "The point is, that this Christian brother from another denomination
          that I wouldn't attend, did all these things for me and wouldn't
          accept a dime in payment."

          Your not being able in good conscience to attend this good Samaritan's
          church does not preclude him from being --

          1). A Christian

          2). A Christian that God sent to bless you.

          3). A Christian that God will reward for his charity towards you.

          4). A Christian that you can have some degree of friendship with.

          Consider the following statements and tell me if they sound like what
          you've been taught:

          "We are not unsocial, or morose, or indifferent to the kindly regards
          of other followers of Christ. In the language of our Testimony,—they,
          Reformed Presbyterians, "sincerely lament that the principles of their
          Testimony should prove so opposite to the practice of many churches
          containing many of the saints of God; but they had no alternative;
          they must act thus, or renounce their faithfulness. They cheerfully
          appreciate the talents and piety of their acquaintances. And, as
          opportunity may offer, commune with them as friends and as Christians;
          but they cannot extend to any one the right hand of fellowship in the
          visible church upon any other principles than those contained in their
          Declaration and Testimony." (Test., Hist. Part last p.)" (Covenanter
          Magazine, "Occasional Hearing," 1852.)

          "We declare our esteem of and love for all the godly in these lands,
          who have the root of the matter in them, and love our Lord Jesus
          Christ in sincerity, who are studying godliness and have sad hearts
          for the tokens of God's sad displeasure, and the sins and abominations
          procuring the same, notwithstanding of their not being of the same
          sentiments and mind with us as to some parts of our testimony and
          practice" (Matthew Hutchison, The Reformed Presbyterian Church in
          Scotland, 1893).

          "In proposing the above Terms of communion, we wish a difference to be
          made between persons holding, proclaiming, and propagating sentiments
          in religion, opposite to those which are recognized by our Terms, and
          persons who may be, comparatively, ignorant, or have private views of
          their own, but are willing to be farther instructed. The former must
          be positively debarred from church fellowship, whereas milder
          treatment is due to the latter. Let it also be remembered, that there
          is a material difference between church-communion, properly so called,
          and private occasional communion, with those who may agree in the
          great essentials of salvation, through a crucified Saviour. Church
          communion, among the professing members of Christ�s mystical body, we
          consider as lying chiefly in their conscientiously walking together,
          and enjoying mutual comfort in the regular observation of all public
          Gospel ordinances, in general, and joint participation of the solemn
          seals of the new covenant, in particular; as these are dispensed by
          the ministers of religion, who are vested with office, according to
          the laws of Christ. This, necessarily, requires unanimity in all those
          things which belong to the constitution of the church in her organized
          capacity; such as, doctrines to be believed, a certain mode of worship
          to be observed a form of government to be exercised, and discipline to
          be administered. As it doth not appear that the church, in her
          complete and organized capacity, can exist without any of these
          articles, so neither is it easy to conceive how persons holding
          jarring sentiments on these important subjects can consistently enjoy
          church fellowship with each other. Private Christian communion, we
          apprehend, consists in the joint discharge of those religious duties
          which are not peculiar to official characters as such, but are common
          to them and all Christians at large, in their individual capacity. Of
          this kind we may reckon reading the Scriptures; religious
          conversation, as opportunity offers, in the course of providence;
          occasional prayer with the sick; when desired; praising God in the
          family, when providentially lodged together; joint craving of Heaven�s
          blessing on the provision of our table, and such like. From private
          and occasional communion, with Christians of other denominations, in
          things like these, we never thought of debarring our people; though we
          cannot help being of opinion, that church fellowship should ever be
          regulated by some such scriptural terms as those which we have
          endeavoured to exhibit and explain" (John Reid, on behalf of the
          Reformed Presbytery, An Explanation and Defense of the Terms of
          Communion).

          Jasper's not a Covie, and I've been trying to get him to have a cup of
          coffee with me for years now!

          gmw.
        • Susan Nye Ferrell
          Dear Jerry, I have almost never (if ever, the memory fades) posted on this list but have read posts on and off. Having followed this latest thread with some
          Message 4 of 8 , Nov 11, 2006
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            Dear Jerry,
            I have almost never (if ever, the memory fades) posted on
            this list but have read posts on and off. Having followed this latest thread
            with some interest, I wanted to thank you for your posting of these various
            covenanter excerpts showing how they saw others who didn't agree with them
            100 percent in doctrine. With Christian Regards,

            Susan Nye Ferrell


            >From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
            >Reply-To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
            >To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Familiar Frienship?
            >Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:54:35 -0000
            >
            >--- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Cheryl Grenon
            ><knoxknoxwhosthere@...> wrote:
            > >
            > > Dear Jerry,
            > >
            > > Could you, or some of the other non-RPNA Covenanters please explain
            > > your take on familiar fellowship?
            >
            >I'm glad you asked on my take on it, because that's all I have is my take.
            >
            >I'm not a big fan of taking a personal opinion, and making it a hard
            >and fast rule for all people to hold to.
            >
            >I believe the Bible tells us not to keep company with drunks,
            >fornicators, blasphemers, and other such notorious sinners.
            >
            >While some may find the "Well if you wouldn't hang out with a
            >drunkard, then how can you hang out with a person who refuses to join
            >our church" type argument to be logically convincing, I just shake my
            >head at such things.
            >
            >I have friends of various degrees -- Covenanter friends, Reformed
            >friends that aren't convinced of Covenanting principals, basic Bible
            >Church type friends that don't even know what I'm talking about when I
            >bring up catechisms and psalmody, Anabaptists, and guys that have
            >never professed any kind of faith that I can discern. I have varying
            >degrees of "fellowship" with these people -- of course I cannot have
            >the same intimate, mutually edifying and influential type of
            >familiarity and fellowship with some of those friends as I can have
            >with others, but I think there can still be some level of friendliness
            >and charity with each of them.
            >
            >I might not be explaining this very well, especially for those of you
            >who have been thusfar using a far different framework of understanding.
            >
            >"The point is, that this Christian brother from another denomination
            >that I wouldn't attend, did all these things for me and wouldn't
            >accept a dime in payment."
            >
            >Your not being able in good conscience to attend this good Samaritan's
            >church does not preclude him from being --
            >
            >1). A Christian
            >
            >2). A Christian that God sent to bless you.
            >
            >3). A Christian that God will reward for his charity towards you.
            >
            >4). A Christian that you can have some degree of friendship with.
            >
            >Consider the following statements and tell me if they sound like what
            >you've been taught:
            >
            >"We are not unsocial, or morose, or indifferent to the kindly regards
            >of other followers of Christ. In the language of our Testimony,�they,
            >Reformed Presbyterians, "sincerely lament that the principles of their
            >Testimony should prove so opposite to the practice of many churches
            >containing many of the saints of God; but they had no alternative;
            >they must act thus, or renounce their faithfulness. They cheerfully
            >appreciate the talents and piety of their acquaintances. And, as
            >opportunity may offer, commune with them as friends and as Christians;
            >but they cannot extend to any one the right hand of fellowship in the
            >visible church upon any other principles than those contained in their
            >Declaration and Testimony." (Test., Hist. Part last p.)" (Covenanter
            >Magazine, "Occasional Hearing," 1852.)
            >
            >"We declare our esteem of and love for all the godly in these lands,
            >who have the root of the matter in them, and love our Lord Jesus
            >Christ in sincerity, who are studying godliness and have sad hearts
            >for the tokens of God's sad displeasure, and the sins and abominations
            >procuring the same, notwithstanding of their not being of the same
            >sentiments and mind with us as to some parts of our testimony and
            >practice" (Matthew Hutchison, The Reformed Presbyterian Church in
            >Scotland, 1893).
            >
            >"In proposing the above Terms of communion, we wish a difference to be
            >made between persons holding, proclaiming, and propagating sentiments
            >in religion, opposite to those which are recognized by our Terms, and
            >persons who may be, comparatively, ignorant, or have private views of
            >their own, but are willing to be farther instructed. The former must
            >be positively debarred from church fellowship, whereas milder
            >treatment is due to the latter. Let it also be remembered, that there
            >is a material difference between church-communion, properly so called,
            >and private occasional communion, with those who may agree in the
            >great essentials of salvation, through a crucified Saviour. Church
            >communion, among the professing members of Christ�s mystical body,
            >we
            >consider as lying chiefly in their conscientiously walking together,
            >and enjoying mutual comfort in the regular observation of all public
            >Gospel ordinances, in general, and joint participation of the solemn
            >seals of the new covenant, in particular; as these are dispensed by
            >the ministers of religion, who are vested with office, according to
            >the laws of Christ. This, necessarily, requires unanimity in all those
            >things which belong to the constitution of the church in her organized
            >capacity; such as, doctrines to be believed, a certain mode of worship
            >to be observed a form of government to be exercised, and discipline to
            >be administered. As it doth not appear that the church, in her
            >complete and organized capacity, can exist without any of these
            >articles, so neither is it easy to conceive how persons holding
            >jarring sentiments on these important subjects can consistently enjoy
            >church fellowship with each other. Private Christian communion, we
            >apprehend, consists in the joint discharge of those religious duties
            >which are not peculiar to official characters as such, but are common
            >to them and all Christians at large, in their individual capacity. Of
            >this kind we may reckon reading the Scriptures; religious
            >conversation, as opportunity offers, in the course of providence;
            >occasional prayer with the sick; when desired; praising God in the
            >family, when providentially lodged together; joint craving of
            >Heaven�s
            >blessing on the provision of our table, and such like. From private
            >and occasional communion, with Christians of other denominations, in
            >things like these, we never thought of debarring our people; though we
            >cannot help being of opinion, that church fellowship should ever be
            >regulated by some such scriptural terms as those which we have
            >endeavoured to exhibit and explain" (John Reid, on behalf of the
            >Reformed Presbytery, An Explanation and Defense of the Terms of
            >Communion).
            >
            >Jasper's not a Covie, and I've been trying to get him to have a cup of
            >coffee with me for years now!
            >
            >gmw.
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • timmopussycat
            ... of ... Tim adds - If I lived closer to you guys, I d drop by to down a Guiness in your company right now! Tim
            Message 5 of 8 , Nov 11, 2006
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              > >From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
              > >Reply-To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              > >To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              > >Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Familiar Frienship?
              > >Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:54:35 -0000

              > >
              > >Jasper's not a Covie, and I've been trying to get him to have a cup
              of
              > >coffee with me for years now!
              > >
              > >gmw.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              Tim adds - If I lived closer to you guys, I'd drop by to down a Guiness
              in your company right now!
              Tim
            • gmw
              You re very welcome, Susan. gmw. ... posted on ... latest thread ... various ... with them
              Message 6 of 8 , Nov 11, 2006
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                You're very welcome, Susan.

                gmw.

                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Susan Nye Ferrell"
                <UKPuritan40@...> wrote:
                >
                > Dear Jerry,
                > I have almost never (if ever, the memory fades)
                posted on
                > this list but have read posts on and off. Having followed this
                latest thread
                > with some interest, I wanted to thank you for your posting of these
                various
                > covenanter excerpts showing how they saw others who didn't agree
                with them
                > 100 percent in doctrine. With Christian Regards,
                >
                > Susan Nye Ferrell
              • gmw
                And if you come, I m buying. gmw.
                Message 7 of 8 , Nov 11, 2006
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                  And if you come, I'm buying.

                  gmw.

                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "timmopussycat"
                  <timmopussycat@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > > >From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@>
                  > > >Reply-To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Familiar Frienship?
                  > > >Date: Fri, 10 Nov 2006 22:54:35 -0000
                  >
                  > > >
                  > > >Jasper's not a Covie, and I've been trying to get him to have a cup
                  > of
                  > > >coffee with me for years now!
                  > > >
                  > > >gmw.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > Tim adds - If I lived closer to you guys, I'd drop by to down a Guiness
                  > in your company right now!
                  > Tim
                  >
                • desire_pure_heart
                  Dear Cheryl; A big hug to you poor sister..... I was glad to hear that the Lord sent someone to assist you...makes one think of Christ s question of who was a
                  Message 8 of 8 , Nov 29, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dear Cheryl;

                    A big hug to you poor sister.....
                    I was glad to hear that the Lord sent someone to assist you...makes
                    one think of Christ's question of who was a *Neighbour*...to the man
                    left for dead along the road.

                    Sadly, I can relate to your experience, after being Widowed, the
                    greatest kindness coming from Grant's brother Danny who is member of
                    the Christian Missionary Alliance....

                    Confusion of the heart and soul is very hard to live with, but this
                    is how to get past the misery, ***REMEMBER WHO THE LORD IS***

                    I continue to pray for you dear sister,

                    Blessings and peace,

                    ~Katrina Schumacher~
                    CRC Rimbey Alberta


                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Cheryl Grenon
                    <knoxknoxwhosthere@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Dear Jerry,
                    >
                    > Could you, or some of the other non-RPNA Covenanters please explain
                    your take on familiar fellowship? This is one area of my thinking
                    that has been thoroughly messed. I used to know how to relate to
                    other Christians from other denominations, but since being in the
                    RPNA, the teaching and example from at least one of the elders is, I
                    suspect, not a faithful representation and could likely be
                    considered downright uncharitable and maybe even extreme.
                    >
                    > A week or so ago my ancient van broke down outside the Christian
                    school where my children attend. To make a long story short, one of
                    the fathers of other children who attend there replaced my battery,
                    my alternator, fixed the blinkers, filled the gas tank with over $100
                    in gas, and cleaned the vehicle inside and out. He may have done
                    other things as well, I don't know. The point is, that this
                    Christian brother from another denomination that I wouldn't attend,
                    did all these things for me and wouldn't accept a dime in payment. I
                    was overcome. This came at a particularly crucial time since I was
                    feeling somewhat abandoned by both God and man. The Lord used this
                    brother to show me that I was not alone and that He still loves me,
                    no matter what.
                    >
                    > I'm not sure what the boundaries are any more. Pathetic, isn't it?
                    >
                    > Cheryl
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message ----
                    > From: gmw <raging.calvinist@...>
                    > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: Friday, November 10, 2006 4:30:16 AM
                    > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Familiar Frienship?
                    >
                    > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Jasper
                    > <jasperh98@ ..> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Hello to all. I am saddened to hear of strife between Christians
                    > and along with so many others I pray that our merciful Lord may
                    bring
                    > healing to the broken relationships.
                    > >
                    > > Without delving here into any particulars of that issue, I
                    noticed a
                    > comment by Willena that prompts me to ask for clarification:
                    > >
                    > > "and to maintain a friendship with someone who didn't see things
                    > > the same way would be familiar fellowship.. . and therefore
                    > idolatry."
                    > >
                    > > Is this the covenantor understanding, and if so what would briefly
                    > be the basis? Thank you.
                    > >
                    >
                    > It sure is NOT my understanding, that's for sure. I think what
                    you're
                    > reading is Willena complaining against this tyranny, not agreeing
                    with it.
                    >
                    > gmw.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    ______________________________________________________________________
                    ______________
                    > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
                    > http://new.mail.yahoo.com
                    >
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