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Re: Welcome, wayward Covenanters....

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  • Tom
    I support anyone who fights tyranny –in the Church, in the State or in the family. After our leadership crisis here, a lot of us found ourselves reexamining
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 5, 2006
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      I support anyone who fights tyranny –in the Church, in the State or
      in the family.

      After our leadership crisis here, a lot of us found ourselves
      reexamining what we'd been taught. There are two things that need to
      be sorted through. First, there is plain old truth versus error. But
      a second subtle distinction is between individual pastoral views and
      confessional standards. I'm sorry, but a quote from Rutherford &
      another from Gillespie doesn't equal a ruling by the General
      Assembly. Strict subscriptionists shouldn't be in a hurry to add to
      the standards, should they? Implicit terms of communion are a subtle
      form of tyranny and a usurpation of authority.

      Sorting out the baby from the bathwater takes time, patience and a
      resolution to hold tight to what you know is right.


      Tom

      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "gmw"
      <raging.calvinist@...> wrote:
      >
      > To those Covenanters who sadly find themselves recently "delivered
      > unto Satan," for their not being able in good conscience to swear
      > themselves to what they believe to be tyranny...
      >
      > YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, as far as I'm concerned.
      >
      > I'm saddened and angered to hear of all this horrible mess, and I
      > don't want any of you to take my "silence" to be an approval of the
      > lawfulness of these actions.
      >
      > God bless you and keep you, through these troublous times.
      >
      > gmw.
      >
    • Ic Neltococayotl
      Dear Susan, Thank you for such a beautiful letter/post. May the Lord guide His people as He did in 1690 when the people were abandoned by the three ministers.
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 6, 2006
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        Dear Susan,

        Thank you for such a beautiful letter/post. May the Lord guide His
        people as He did in 1690 when the people were abandoned by the three
        ministers.

        Holding fast the original 6 terms of communion,

        Edgar Ibarra




        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "susanandcrew"
        <gpyp@...> wrote:
        >
        > Willena,
        >
        > I am so glad to see you post. I was just asking about you yesterday.
        > I know that this whole thing has been particularly costly for you and
        > I wanted to tell you that I'm sorry and that I'm praying for you and
        > your family.
        >
        > I do hope that you and Cheryl and those who have yet to speak will
        > still stick around here. In many ways we have more in common now than
        > ever before; we are all Covenanters with (now) the same SIX terms of
        > communion; we have all been through a crisis with our leadership that
        > is causing us to examine ourselves and our beliefs in light of that
        > crisis; we all desire to throw off tyranny while still submitting
        > ourselves to the Truth despite great struggles and a want of pastors;
        > we all have to suffer some form of isolation and deal with all of the
        > practical concerns and trials that brings. I think we can be a great
        > encouragement to each other!
        >
        > You know, Jerry began this group in part with hopes of bringing more
        > unity between the two Covenanter groups. I think the group has done
        > that to some degree already, but it may be now that we begin to
        > really reap the benefits of having some connection through these last
        > several years. Interesting that this all comes right after Jerry asks
        > if his group has died!
        >
        > How ironic that each of us comes to this place of greater commonality
        > without the leaders we once had. Perhaps in our cases (sadly) that's
        > exactly what we needed to find unity. Without others telling us that
        > there are more than six terms of communion (implicit terms, but terms
        > nonetheless) those things that at one time seemed so significant--
        > headcoverings (or not), make-up (or not), skirts (or not), etc.
        > suddenly feel a lot less divisive to me.
        >
        > That's a nice feeling.
        >
        > Sad, but hopeful,
        > Susan
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Willena Flewelling
        > wrose@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Jerry, you are sweet, and I love you!
        > >
        > > I have not been delivered unto Satan yet, but only because I don't
        > speak
        > > up unless confronted directly. As one who has not been spoken to AT
        > ALL
        > > for the past seven months, by the two elders who lead worship in
        > > Edmonton, I suspect it won't be long. They know who my friends are.
        > >
        > > I will always be a covenanter, but am scrambling at the moment,
        > > wondering exactly what it means to be one.
        > >
        > > Willena
        > >
        > > ********************************
        > > To those Covenanters who sadly find themselves recently "delivered
        > > unto Satan," for their not being able in good conscience to swear
        > > themselves to what they believe to be tyranny...
        > >
        > > YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, as far as I'm concerned.
        > >
        > > I'm saddened and angered to hear of all this horrible mess, and I
        > > don't want any of you to take my "silence" to be an approval of the
        > > lawfulness of these actions.
        > >
        > > God bless you and keep you, through these troublous times.
        > >
        > > gmw.
        > >
        >
      • Willena Flewelling
        Dear Susan, Thank you for your encouraging words! If I have started this reply once, I have started it a dozen times, because even here I fear both extremes...
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 6, 2006
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          Dear Susan,

          Thank you for your encouraging words!

          If I have started this reply once, I have started it a dozen times, because even here I fear both extremes... not saying enough and saying too much. Honest questions are seen as outright rebellion... and those questions are never answered, but are countered with many other questions. Anything you say will be held against you... it is only a matter of time.

          One of my daughters put it so well the other day... heartbreaking to me as I heard the confusion and anguish in her voice... "All these people used to be friends!!" I don't know what the future holds for me personally, but I expect things will get worse before they get better. There is a lot of hurt on both sides, which is bound to get worse given the system within which we are operating.

          Family members learn to adapt despite the hurt. Friendships are not so easily mended, particularly when some think they should be based on our view of the elders. It isn't only the elders who don't speak to me any more even though no one has talked to me to ask me where I stand on anything. It is all based on appearances... who they see me talking to... and it hurts. It's like everything that has been built upon for the past eleven years is worth nothing... "I don't want to know you any more." I never had a problem with that point of view until recently, because I was so clear on what I believed... what our distinctives are as Covenanters... and to maintain a friendship with someone who didn't see things the same way would be familiar fellowship... and therefore idolatry. I do have a problem with it now, especially in this case, because so much of this is based on misunderstandings, and NOT on the truth.

          I do plan to stick around here. I also plan to go back and study our faithful subordinate standards again... starting with the WCF, the Auchensaugh Renovation, and the Act Declaration & Testimony... and this time try reading them in context, and not through the filter of certain contemporary leaders.

          Willena

          susanandcrew wrote:

          Willena,

          I am so glad to see you post. I was just asking about you yesterday.
          I know that this whole thing has been particularly costly for you and
          I wanted to tell you that I'm sorry and that I'm praying for you and
          your family.

          I do hope that you and Cheryl and those who have yet to speak will
          still stick around here. In many ways we have more in common now than
          ever before; we are all Covenanters with (now) the same SIX terms of
          communion; we have all been through a crisis with our leadership that
          is causing us to examine ourselves and our beliefs in light of that
          crisis; we all desire to throw off tyranny while still submitting
          ourselves to the Truth despite great struggles and a want of pastors;
          we all have to suffer some form of isolation and deal with all of the
          practical concerns and trials that brings. I think we can be a great
          encouragement to each other!

          You know, Jerry began this group in part with hopes of bringing more
          unity between the two Covenanter groups. I think the group has done
          that to some degree already, but it may be now that we begin to
          really reap the benefits of having some connection through these last
          several years. Interesting that this all comes right after Jerry asks
          if his group has died!

          How ironic that each of us comes to this place of greater commonality
          without the leaders we once had. Perhaps in our cases (sadly) that's
          exactly what we needed to find unity. Without others telling us that
          there are more than six terms of communion (implicit terms, but terms
          nonetheless) those things that at one time seemed so significant- -
          headcoverings (or not), make-up (or not), skirts (or not), etc.
          suddenly feel a lot less divisive to me.

          That's a nice feeling.

          Sad, but hopeful,
          Susan

          --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Willena Flewelling
          <wrose@...> wrote:
          >
          > Jerry, you are sweet, and I love you!
          >
          > I have not been delivered unto Satan yet, but only because I don't
          speak
          > up unless confronted directly. As one who has not been spoken to AT
          ALL
          > for the past seven months, by the two elders who lead worship in
          > Edmonton, I suspect it won't be long. They know who my friends are.
          >
          > I will always be a covenanter, but am scrambling at the moment,
          > wondering exactly what it means to be one.
          >
          > Willena
          >
          > ************ ********* ********* **
          > To those Covenanters who sadly find themselves recently "delivered
          > unto Satan," for their not being able in good conscience to swear
          > themselves to what they believe to be tyranny...
          >
          > YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, as far as I'm concerned.
          >
          > I'm saddened and angered to hear of all this horrible mess, and I
          > don't want any of you to take my "silence" to be an approval of the
          > lawfulness of these actions.
          >
          > God bless you and keep you, through these troublous times.
          >
          > gmw.
          >


        • Willena Flewelling
          In my previous post I said... ... no one has talked to me to ask me where I stand on anything.
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 6, 2006
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            In my previous post I said...

            >>> It isn't only the elders who don't speak to me any
            more even though no one has talked to me to ask me where I stand on anything. <<<

            I have since been reminded that Ginny did ask me one day in the summer what I thought of what was happening. We did not talk about it because I was afraid to voice any kind of questions or doubts to anyone at all.

            This oversight was unintentional, but I want to correct it. I am sorry, Ginny.

            Willena



            Willena Flewelling wrote:

            Dear Susan,

            Thank you for your encouraging words!

            If I have started this reply once, I have started it a dozen times, because even here I fear both extremes... not saying enough and saying too much. Honest questions are seen as outright rebellion... and those questions are never answered, but are countered with many other questions. Anything you say will be held against you... it is only a matter of time.

            One of my daughters put it so well the other day... heartbreaking to me as I heard the confusion and anguish in her voice... "All these people used to be friends!!" I don't know what the future holds for me personally, but I expect things will get worse before they get better. There is a lot of hurt on both sides, which is bound to get worse given the system within which we are operating.

            Family members learn to adapt despite the hurt. Friendships are not so easily mended, particularly when some think they should be based on our view of the elders. It isn't only the elders who don't speak to me any more even though no one has talked to me to ask me where I stand on anything. It is all based on appearances. .. who they see me talking to... and it hurts. It's like everything that has been built upon for the past eleven years is worth nothing... "I don't want to know you any more." I never had a problem with that point of view until recently, because I was so clear on what I believed... what our distinctives are as Covenanters. .. and to maintain a friendship with someone who didn't see things the same way would be familiar fellowship.. . and therefore idolatry. I do have a problem with it now, especially in this case, because so much of this is based on misunderstandings, and NOT on the truth.

            I do plan to stick around here. I also plan to go back and study our faithful subordinate standards again... starting with the WCF, the Auchensaugh Renovation, and the Act Declaration & Testimony... and this time try reading them in context, and not through the filter of certain contemporary leaders.

            Willena

            .


          • Deejay
            Can I be a wayward Covenanter? it appeals to the rebel in me. ;-) Seriously, I feel for those who are or have become isolated. Its not a nice thing for anyone
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 7, 2006
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              Re: Welcome, wayward Covenanters.... Can I be a wayward Covenanter? it appeals to the rebel in me. ;-)

              Seriously, I feel for those who are or have become isolated.  Its not a nice thing for anyone to experience.  That's not a statement taking sides mind,   just sympathy with the situation, and isolation in the extreme being something I am familiar with and a big part of my cross.  (believe me, you don’t want to know)

              But any wayward covenanters are welcome at my group is they so wish.  Jerry, Irene, edgar,  Ginny and a lot of the members from here make up the membership so we all share many things in the way of faith.

              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ComeOutFromAmongstThem/



              Sorry for the plug.

              ~Deejay

              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...> wrote:
              >
              > To those Covenanters who sadly find themselves recently "delivered
              > unto Satan," for their not being able in good conscience to swear
              > themselves to what they believe to be tyranny...
              >
              > YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, as far as I'm concerned.
              >
              > I'm saddened and angered to hear of all this horrible mess, and I
              > don't want any of you to take my "silence" to be an approval of the
              > lawfulness of these actions.
              >
              > God bless you and keep you, through these troublous times.
              >
              > gmw.
              >
            • desire_pure_heart
              Hello Willena and list; Speaking as a former member of the RPNA...going through excommunication twice.... Today, I thought about the history of the
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 28, 2006
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                Hello Willena and list;

                Speaking as a former member of the RPNA...going through
                excommunication twice....<sigh>

                Today, I thought about the history of the Christians who followed the
                teachings of the Covenanters of three hundred years ago...the modern
                ones that is...the ones who left all to follow the PRCE, or former
                RPNA...for the last 16 years...well almost, that long, not calling
                themselves Covenanters for all those years, for in the beginning they
                considered themselves Reformed Presbyterians...and were friends with
                Pastor Richard Bacon.I thought of your **Willena** comments of not
                being ministered to for the last seven months...and wondered what
                really caused that? Why Willena did that happen? Was it just you that
                went throught that or are there others having this experience?

                Of Edgar's adamant comments that he is still having Communion with
                those who have been excommunicated....why are you Edgar? In time you
                will be excommunicated for this act Edgar...and what do you mean by
                following the first six terms....is there a difference now?

                The article on Legalism versus Grace that I posted, when I first read
                it, I thought of the many instances where I'd have to consider that
                in the past I did follow legalism, I was a Legalist.... I did think I
                was pleasing the Lord more with my worship than other Christians who
                used Instruments and songs that were not a part of the Psalter that
                the RPNA approved.
                Of my Superior Christian life, over that of my extended family that
                though they themselves Christians, attended local Worship services
                in Churches, that did not hold to the SLC and most not even knowing
                anything about that document. I had agreed with the teaching of my
                RPNA elders, that my extended family's ministers were not faithful.

                Gerry, a question to you....if Elders follow strictly the six terms
                of communion, what would make them Tyrants...I mean why should anyone
                call them that, if they are just following the terms strictly?


                Is there a problem with the terms themselves? Would Christ follow
                them Himself, if His earthly ministry had fallen during our day....is
                it possible that He would have addressed the followers of those 6
                terms, like He did the Pharisees?

                I noticed in reading the Elders defense of June that there is 5 terms
                of membership mentioned... I do not remember reading or hearing that
                before....can someone, maybe Edgar explain please what those 5 terms
                of membership are?

                I have many more questions, but this is probably long enough for one
                post.

                Blessings,

                ~Katrina Schumacher~
                former member and promoter of the RPNA
                now communicate member of Rimbey Christian Reformed Church
                Alberta Canada


                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Willena Flewelling
                <wrose@...> wrote:
                >
                > Jerry, you are sweet, and I love you!
                >
                > I have not been delivered unto Satan yet, but only because I don't
                speak
                > up unless confronted directly. As one who has not been spoken to AT
                ALL
                > for the past seven months, by the two elders who lead worship in
                > Edmonton, I suspect it won't be long. They know who my friends are.
                >
                > I will always be a covenanter, but am scrambling at the moment,
                > wondering exactly what it means to be one.
                >
                > Willena
                >
                > ********************************
                > gmw.> To those Covenanters who sadly find themselves
                recently "delivered
                > unto Satan," for their not being able in good conscience to swear
                > themselves to what they believe to be tyranny...
                >
                > YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, as far as I'm concerned.
                >
                > I'm saddened and angered to hear of all this horrible mess, and I
                > don't want any of you to take my "silence" to be an approval of the
                > lawfulness of these actions.
                >
                > God bless you and keep you, through these troublous times.
                >

                >
              • desire_pure_heart
                Dear list; Last night while fixing suppper, I realized that I should not have put questions to Willena and Edgar, if you both are still under the three Elders
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 29, 2006
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                  Dear list;

                  Last night while fixing suppper, I realized that I should not have
                  put questions to Willena and Edgar, if you both are still under the
                  three Elders authority....

                  I forgot that it is considered your duty to rebuke me first before
                  addressing anything to me...I appoligize for putting you in such a
                  place...

                  Feel free to ignore my post.


                  Blessings,

                  ~Katrina~




                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "desire_pure_heart"
                  <triple3ranch@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hello Willena and list;
                  >
                  > Speaking as a former member of the RPNA...going through
                  > excommunication twice....<sigh>
                  >
                  > Today, I thought about the history of the Christians who followed
                  the
                  > teachings of the Covenanters of three hundred years ago...the
                  modern
                  > ones that is...the ones who left all to follow the PRCE, or former
                  > RPNA...for the last 16 years...well almost, that long, not calling
                  > themselves Covenanters for all those years, for in the beginning
                  they
                  > considered themselves Reformed Presbyterians...and were friends
                  with
                  > Pastor Richard Bacon.I thought of your **Willena** comments of not
                  > being ministered to for the last seven months...and wondered what
                  > really caused that? Why Willena did that happen? Was it just you
                  that
                  > went throught that or are there others having this experience?
                  >
                  > Of Edgar's adamant comments that he is still having Communion with
                  > those who have been excommunicated....why are you Edgar? In time
                  you
                  > will be excommunicated for this act Edgar...and what do you mean by
                  > following the first six terms....is there a difference now?
                  >
                  > The article on Legalism versus Grace that I posted, when I first
                  read
                  > it, I thought of the many instances where I'd have to consider that
                  > in the past I did follow legalism, I was a Legalist.... I did think
                  I
                  > was pleasing the Lord more with my worship than other Christians
                  who
                  > used Instruments and songs that were not a part of the Psalter that
                  > the RPNA approved.
                  > Of my Superior Christian life, over that of my extended family that
                  > though they themselves Christians, attended local Worship services
                  > in Churches, that did not hold to the SLC and most not even knowing
                  > anything about that document. I had agreed with the teaching of my
                  > RPNA elders, that my extended family's ministers were not faithful.
                  >
                  > Gerry, a question to you....if Elders follow strictly the six terms
                  > of communion, what would make them Tyrants...I mean why should
                  anyone
                  > call them that, if they are just following the terms strictly?
                  >
                  >
                  > Is there a problem with the terms themselves? Would Christ follow
                  > them Himself, if His earthly ministry had fallen during our
                  day....is
                  > it possible that He would have addressed the followers of those 6
                  > terms, like He did the Pharisees?
                  >
                  > I noticed in reading the Elders defense of June that there is 5
                  terms
                  > of membership mentioned... I do not remember reading or hearing
                  that
                  > before....can someone, maybe Edgar explain please what those 5
                  terms
                  > of membership are?
                  >
                  > I have many more questions, but this is probably long enough for
                  one
                  > post.
                  >
                  > Blessings,
                  >
                  > ~Katrina Schumacher~
                  > former member and promoter of the RPNA
                  > now communicate member of Rimbey Christian Reformed Church
                  > Alberta Canada
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Willena
                  Flewelling
                  > <wrose@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Jerry, you are sweet, and I love you!
                  > >
                  > > I have not been delivered unto Satan yet, but only because I
                  don't
                  > speak
                  > > up unless confronted directly. As one who has not been spoken to
                  AT
                  > ALL
                  > > for the past seven months, by the two elders who lead worship in
                  > > Edmonton, I suspect it won't be long. They know who my friends
                  are.
                  > >
                  > > I will always be a covenanter, but am scrambling at the moment,
                  > > wondering exactly what it means to be one.
                  > >
                  > > Willena
                  > >
                  > > ********************************
                  > > gmw.> To those Covenanters who sadly find themselves
                  > recently "delivered
                  > > unto Satan," for their not being able in good conscience to swear
                  > > themselves to what they believe to be tyranny...
                  > >
                  > > YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, as far as I'm concerned.
                  > >
                  > > I'm saddened and angered to hear of all this horrible mess, and I
                  > > don't want any of you to take my "silence" to be an approval of
                  the
                  > > lawfulness of these actions.
                  > >
                  > > God bless you and keep you, through these troublous times.
                  > >
                  >
                  > >
                  >
                • Willena Flewelling
                  Hi Katrina, ... being ministered to for the last seven months...and wondered what really caused that? Why Willena did that happen? Was it just you that went
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 29, 2006
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                    Hi Katrina,

                    >>> I thought of your **Willena** comments of not
                    being ministered to for the last seven months...and wondered what
                    really caused that? Why Willena did that happen? Was it just you that
                    went throught that or are there others having this experience? <<<

                    To tell you the truth, I don't know why. I hate going by perceptions or
                    speculation alone, because I know how easy it is to come to the wrong
                    conclusions that way. But as I have nothing else to go on, it appears to
                    me it's because they know I am good friends with some who are now
                    excommunicated or who have spoken publicly against things the elders
                    have done in the past year.

                    Willena
                  • Willena Flewelling
                    No need to apologize, Katrina. The only reason I didn t answer yesterday is that I feel a great need to weigh my words very carefully these days, and needed
                    Message 9 of 14 , Nov 29, 2006
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                      No need to apologize, Katrina. The only reason I didn't answer yesterday is that I feel a great need to weigh my words very carefully these days, and needed time to think about it.

                      Willena

                      desire_pure_heart wrote:

                      Dear list;

                      Last night while fixing suppper, I realized that I should not have
                      put questions to Willena and Edgar, if you both are still under the
                      three Elders authority... .

                      I forgot that it is considered your duty to rebuke me first before
                      addressing anything to me...I appoligize for putting you in such a
                      place...

                      Feel free to ignore my post.

                      Blessings,

                      ~Katrina~

                      --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, "desire_pure_ heart"
                      <triple3ranch@ ...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hello Willena and list;
                      >
                      > Speaking as a former member of the RPNA...going through
                      > excommunication twice....<sigh>
                      >
                      > Today, I thought about the history of the Christians who followed
                      the
                      > teachings of the Covenanters of three hundred years ago...the
                      modern
                      > ones that is...the ones who left all to follow the PRCE, or former
                      > RPNA...for the last 16 years...well almost, that long, not calling
                      > themselves Covenanters for all those years, for in the beginning
                      they
                      > considered themselves Reformed Presbyterians. ..and were friends
                      with
                      > Pastor Richard Bacon.I thought of your **Willena** comments of not
                      > being ministered to for the last seven months...and wondered what
                      > really caused that? Why Willena did that happen? Was it just you
                      that
                      > went throught that or are there others having this experience?
                      >
                      > Of Edgar's adamant comments that he is still having Communion with
                      > those who have been excommunicated. ...why are you Edgar? In time
                      you
                      > will be excommunicated for this act Edgar...and what do you mean by
                      > following the first six terms....is there a difference now?
                      >
                      > The article on Legalism versus Grace that I posted, when I first
                      read
                      > it, I thought of the many instances where I'd have to consider that
                      > in the past I did follow legalism, I was a Legalist.... I did think
                      I
                      > was pleasing the Lord more with my worship than other Christians
                      who
                      > used Instruments and songs that were not a part of the Psalter that
                      > the RPNA approved.
                      > Of my Superior Christian life, over that of my extended family that
                      > though they themselves Christians, attended local Worship services
                      > in Churches, that did not hold to the SLC and most not even knowing
                      > anything about that document. I had agreed with the teaching of my
                      > RPNA elders, that my extended family's ministers were not faithful.
                      >
                      > Gerry, a question to you....if Elders follow strictly the six terms
                      > of communion, what would make them Tyrants...I mean why should
                      anyone
                      > call them that, if they are just following the terms strictly?
                      >
                      >
                      > Is there a problem with the terms themselves? Would Christ follow
                      > them Himself, if His earthly ministry had fallen during our
                      day....is
                      > it possible that He would have addressed the followers of those 6
                      > terms, like He did the Pharisees?
                      >
                      > I noticed in reading the Elders defense of June that there is 5
                      terms
                      > of membership mentioned... I do not remember reading or hearing
                      that
                      > before....can someone, maybe Edgar explain please what those 5
                      terms
                      > of membership are?
                      >
                      > I have many more questions, but this is probably long enough for
                      one
                      > post.
                      >
                      > Blessings,
                      >
                      > ~Katrina Schumacher~
                      > former member and promoter of the RPNA
                      > now communicate member of Rimbey Christian Reformed Church
                      > Alberta Canada
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Willena
                      Flewelling
                      > <wrose@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Jerry, you are sweet, and I love you!
                      > >
                      > > I have not been delivered unto Satan yet, but only because I
                      don't
                      > speak
                      > > up unless confronted directly. As one who has not been spoken to
                      AT
                      > ALL
                      > > for the past seven months, by the two elders who lead worship in
                      > > Edmonton, I suspect it won't be long. They know who my friends
                      are.
                      > >
                      > > I will always be a covenanter, but am scrambling at the moment,
                      > > wondering exactly what it means to be one.
                      > >
                      > > Willena
                      > >
                      > > ************ ********* ********* **
                      > > gmw.> To those Covenanters who sadly find themselves
                      > recently "delivered
                      > > unto Satan," for their not being able in good conscience to swear
                      > > themselves to what they believe to be tyranny...
                      > >
                      > > YOU ARE WELCOME HERE, as far as I'm concerned.
                      > >
                      > > I'm saddened and angered to hear of all this horrible mess, and I
                      > > don't want any of you to take my "silence" to be an approval of
                      the
                      > > lawfulness of these actions.
                      > >
                      > > God bless you and keep you, through these troublous times.
                      > >
                      >
                      > >
                      >


                    • Walt
                      Willena, I could not help but to read through your posts and share with you how frustrating it can be alone and away from other covenanter fellowship.
                      Message 10 of 14 , Nov 29, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Willena,

                        I could not help but to read through your posts and share with you how
                        frustrating it can be alone and away from other covenanter fellowship.
                        Fortunately, many, if not all, on this site who claim some level of
                        covenanter distinctives have local churches to attend, and have built
                        a strong friendship with their local congregation. They get to visit
                        their Pastors each week and enjoy time with their Elders face-to-face.
                        It is sad that those of us in the wilderness do not have the same
                        sort of ordinary Pastoral love and care that our covenanter brothers
                        and sisters have at present, but do not be discouraged. Although we
                        have not been blessed with a large following as others, and perhaps
                        may end up with even fewer as our brothers and sisters leave for other
                        more profitable congregations and more (in their eyes) faithful
                        Ministers and Elders, I would encourage you to weather out this storm
                        before you jump ship if things get more stormy. Yes, I admit if we
                        look around at our brothers on this site and others who are
                        covenanters, they have things much better in the eyes and minds of
                        many on this site. Clearly, at every turn, we seem to make the
                        largest and most public mistakes out of all the covenanter churches
                        out there, and our three Elders have always been considered the most
                        unfaithful and tyrannical (as the new saying spreads across the web)
                        than others. I remember the storm over headcoverings...I just wanted
                        to bury my head below the pillow and let it pass. Some of the things
                        I read made me think we were like the most evil covenanter
                        Presbyterians that came along, and there are other things that I'm
                        sure you hear day in and day out. At this pace, I suspect we will
                        have enough members for a couple local sessions in, maybe, perhaps,
                        the next 10,000 years. I do hope it comes sooner, but it sure looks
                        pretty stormy right now, and from discussions I've had with one of the
                        Elders today, listening to both sides of the story on key questions I
                        have in my own research, I suspect few will want to remain members in
                        the RPNA(GM) as it is my opinion that people have made up their minds.
                        If I can call you, and share my thoughts along side of your other
                        friends who you speak about below, would you email me as I cannot find
                        your email in the list that was previously used on our site.
                        Unfortunately, I don't have your number either, otherwise I would call
                        you today to chat. I share with you all the things above hoping that
                        you will email me privately so we can chat before your frustration
                        level rises further, and perhaps I can share with you my thoughts and
                        arguments in favor of the Elders and their decisions. I have some
                        ideas from studying the many documents, and detailing out the issues,
                        so that maybe it will be helpful to you as well. I believe it would
                        be worth a shot. Let me know if you are interested. Please give me a
                        chance if you don't mind.

                        May the Lord be with you.
                        Walt.

                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Willena Flewelling
                        <wrose@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Katrina,
                        >
                        > >>> I thought of your **Willena** comments of not
                        > being ministered to for the last seven months...and wondered what
                        > really caused that? Why Willena did that happen? Was it just you that
                        > went throught that or are there others having this experience? <<<
                        >
                        > To tell you the truth, I don't know why. I hate going by perceptions or
                        > speculation alone, because I know how easy it is to come to the wrong
                        > conclusions that way. But as I have nothing else to go on, it
                        appears to
                        > me it's because they know I am good friends with some who are now
                        > excommunicated or who have spoken publicly against things the elders
                        > have done in the past year.
                        >
                        > Willena
                        >
                      • Willena Flewelling
                        Hi Walt, I appreciate your input, and thank you for your concern. I thank you also for your offer to email me or speak on the phone, but I must decline. I have
                        Message 11 of 14 , Nov 29, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Walt,

                          I appreciate your input, and thank you for your concern. I thank you also for your offer to email me or speak on the phone, but I must decline.

                          I have been with the Edmonton congregation since June 1995. I became a member in January 1998, and a communicant in June 1999. I am not prepared to jump ship just yet. I'll wait and see what the elders have in store for us in the coming weeks. I have done a fair bit of reading too, and if it does come to jumping ship, it will be an informed decision.

                          Willena

                          Walt wrote:

                          Willena,

                          I could not help but to read through your posts and share with you how
                          frustrating it can be alone and away from other covenanter fellowship.
                          Fortunately, many, if not all, on this site who claim some level of
                          covenanter distinctives have local churches to attend, and have built
                          a strong friendship with their local congregation. They get to visit
                          their Pastors each week and enjoy time with their Elders face-to-face.
                          It is sad that those of us in the wilderness do not have the same
                          sort of ordinary Pastoral love and care that our covenanter brothers
                          and sisters have at present, but do not be discouraged. Although we
                          have not been blessed with a large following as others, and perhaps
                          may end up with even fewer as our brothers and sisters leave for other
                          more profitable congregations and more (in their eyes) faithful
                          Ministers and Elders, I would encourage you to weather out this storm
                          before you jump ship if things get more stormy. Yes, I admit if we
                          look around at our brothers on this site and others who are
                          covenanters, they have things much better in the eyes and minds of
                          many on this site. Clearly, at every turn, we seem to make the
                          largest and most public mistakes out of all the covenanter churches
                          out there, and our three Elders have always been considered the most
                          unfaithful and tyrannical (as the new saying spreads across the web)
                          than others. I remember the storm over headcoverings. ..I just wanted
                          to bury my head below the pillow and let it pass. Some of the things
                          I read made me think we were like the most evil covenanter
                          Presbyterians that came along, and there are other things that I'm
                          sure you hear day in and day out. At this pace, I suspect we will
                          have enough members for a couple local sessions in, maybe, perhaps,
                          the next 10,000 years. I do hope it comes sooner, but it sure looks
                          pretty stormy right now, and from discussions I've had with one of the
                          Elders today, listening to both sides of the story on key questions I
                          have in my own research, I suspect few will want to remain members in
                          the RPNA(GM) as it is my opinion that people have made up their minds.
                          If I can call you, and share my thoughts along side of your other
                          friends who you speak about below, would you email me as I cannot find
                          your email in the list that was previously used on our site.
                          Unfortunately, I don't have your number either, otherwise I would call
                          you today to chat. I share with you all the things above hoping that
                          you will email me privately so we can chat before your frustration
                          level rises further, and perhaps I can share with you my thoughts and
                          arguments in favor of the Elders and their decisions. I have some
                          ideas from studying the many documents, and detailing out the issues,
                          so that maybe it will be helpful to you as well. I believe it would
                          be worth a shot. Let me know if you are interested. Please give me a
                          chance if you don't mind.

                          May the Lord be with you.
                          Walt.

                          --- In covenantedreformati onclub@yahoogrou ps.com, Willena Flewelling
                          <wrose@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Katrina,
                          >
                          > >>> I thought of your **Willena** comments of not
                          > being ministered to for the last seven months...and wondered what
                          > really caused that? Why Willena did that happen? Was it just you that
                          > went throught that or are there others having this experience? <<<
                          >
                          > To tell you the truth, I don't know why. I hate going by perceptions or
                          > speculation alone, because I know how easy it is to come to the wrong
                          > conclusions that way. But as I have nothing else to go on, it
                          appears to
                          > me it's because they know I am good friends with some who are now
                          > excommunicated or who have spoken publicly against things the elders
                          > have done in the past year.
                          >
                          > Willena
                          >


                        • Walt
                          Hi Willena, I do hope you speak to the Elders, over the phone, or in person to have a more balanced approach to the charges against them. I m absolutely sure
                          Message 12 of 14 , Nov 30, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Hi Willena,

                            I do hope you speak to the Elders, over the phone, or in person to
                            have a more balanced approach to the charges against them. I'm
                            absolutely sure everything is not contained in the written record, and
                            things often change from what someone wrote, and then later admits or
                            denies. We all do this in our own lives and it seems to be human nature.

                            I'm sure before you would leave us that your Scriptural arguments
                            would be well done. For some reason I thought you were outside of the
                            Edmonton group and lived elsewhere in Canada. It is indeed a shame
                            that for 7 months you have felt that way, and it really does make me
                            feel more isolated than you being away from local fellowship.

                            All this is going to boil down to whether an extraordinary,
                            international Session is lawful in the eyes of Scripture, and whether
                            or not Elders must be local. If you feel isolated and left alone in a
                            local society, I don't think we have a leg to stand on to support
                            local presbyterian societies or sessions. The current criticism has
                            been those of us out in separate locations, worldwide, and especially
                            those in the societies have no ministers or elders to support their
                            day-to-day or weekly spiritual needs, and that only local,
                            congregational style societies fully indepedent and functioning on
                            their own can serve this purpose. An international, extraordinary
                            session is not only unlawful in the minds of some, but is...what did I
                            hear recently...a innovation when someone uses the internet or phone
                            to communicate. Everything must be local and congregational in style.

                            Well, I see even this idea is wholly inadequate if you feel the way
                            you have felt the past 7 months. Perhaps the idea of fully funded
                            (each society has to have its own separate funding as I understand
                            from speaking with some) and comingling of funds between societies
                            without the congregation consent (or at least asking permission)
                            should not be practiced or promoted. This way each society is (or
                            should be) responsible for supporting their own Elders, any local
                            staff, etc. The whole concept reminds me of when I was a Baptist, but
                            without use of the internet, phones and other forms of communication
                            that make Session decisions apparantly unlawful, I understand why the
                            local society or congregation must be solely operating in the General
                            Meeting concept desired by some. This concept will be further refined
                            to give it the look and feel like presbyterianism in due time, but for
                            now lets get away from this internet evil and rip the phones out of
                            the walls so we can congregate into local heavenly fellowship.

                            Well, I am looking for the next Scriptural arguments over the internet
                            from my fellow colleagues, provided, this would not be considered a
                            double standard where they can congregate over the web, over the
                            phone, and unite into one formal pleading and rendered decision. It
                            certainly would not be right to forbid Elders from this method of
                            coming together as two or three, with Christ in the midst, and making
                            a lawful and faithful decision, but allow it themselves in their
                            pleadings.

                            I was thinking recently. Wow, all of the membership interviews that
                            were taken over the phone, and the communicate exams, over the phone
                            between the Elders and our dear members, are all unlawful due to the
                            evil in this method of presbyterianism (which I understand is no
                            presbyterianism at all). They are all void ab initio from the start,
                            and so membership is no membership at all simple because no court can
                            operate in this fashion...it must be local and face-to-face.

                            Well, I don't by the arguments, and am waiting as the argument
                            continues to change and change from week to week. I'm no baptist any
                            longer, and I've been so blessed by speaking to our members and our
                            Elders over the phone, and communicating by email, and even using the
                            modern marvel of a plane to fly and visit families face-to-face. It
                            certainly is not ordinary in the time of the Lord's Apostles, or
                            Prophets, or courts to act this way, but perhaps it is extraordinary
                            in an unsettled state of the church. However, in the eyes of an
                            omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent God of heaven and earth, it is
                            just another means of grace we have been given.

                            Again, if you decide to reject the oath and declare our court unlawful
                            on its face as being no presbyterian court at all, I do welcome and
                            would be ever so blessed by your scriptural arguments on the matter.
                            I'm waiting as I weed through all the smoke and allegation that seems
                            to be ever so changing week by week.

                            Thank you for writing. I hope you'll send me your email one day. I
                            know it is not the best method, but I would enjoy the fellowship out
                            here away from the Edmonton society.

                            For the cause of Christ,
                            Walt.





                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Willena Flewelling
                            <wrose@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Walt,
                            >
                            > I appreciate your input, and thank you for your concern. I thank you
                            > also for your offer to email me or speak on the phone, but I must
                            decline.
                            >
                            > I have been with the Edmonton congregation since June 1995. I became a
                            > member in January 1998, and a communicant in June 1999. I am not
                            > prepared to jump ship just yet. I'll wait and see what the elders have
                            > in store for us in the coming weeks. I have done a fair bit of reading
                            > too, and if it does come to jumping ship, it will be an informed
                            decision.
                            >
                            > Willena
                            >
                            > Walt wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Willena,
                            > >
                            > > I could not help but to read through your posts and share with you how
                            > > frustrating it can be alone and away from other covenanter fellowship.
                            > > Fortunately, many, if not all, on this site who claim some level of
                            > > covenanter distinctives have local churches to attend, and have built
                            > > a strong friendship with their local congregation. They get to visit
                            > > their Pastors each week and enjoy time with their Elders face-to-face.
                            > > It is sad that those of us in the wilderness do not have the same
                            > > sort of ordinary Pastoral love and care that our covenanter brothers
                            > > and sisters have at present, but do not be discouraged. Although we
                            > > have not been blessed with a large following as others, and perhaps
                            > > may end up with even fewer as our brothers and sisters leave for other
                            > > more profitable congregations and more (in their eyes) faithful
                            > > Ministers and Elders, I would encourage you to weather out this storm
                            > > before you jump ship if things get more stormy. Yes, I admit if we
                            > > look around at our brothers on this site and others who are
                            > > covenanters, they have things much better in the eyes and minds of
                            > > many on this site. Clearly, at every turn, we seem to make the
                            > > largest and most public mistakes out of all the covenanter churches
                            > > out there, and our three Elders have always been considered the most
                            > > unfaithful and tyrannical (as the new saying spreads across the web)
                            > > than others. I remember the storm over headcoverings...I just wanted
                            > > to bury my head below the pillow and let it pass. Some of the things
                            > > I read made me think we were like the most evil covenanter
                            > > Presbyterians that came along, and there are other things that I'm
                            > > sure you hear day in and day out. At this pace, I suspect we will
                            > > have enough members for a couple local sessions in, maybe, perhaps,
                            > > the next 10,000 years. I do hope it comes sooner, but it sure looks
                            > > pretty stormy right now, and from discussions I've had with one of the
                            > > Elders today, listening to both sides of the story on key questions I
                            > > have in my own research, I suspect few will want to remain members in
                            > > the RPNA(GM) as it is my opinion that people have made up their minds.
                            > > If I can call you, and share my thoughts along side of your other
                            > > friends who you speak about below, would you email me as I cannot find
                            > > your email in the list that was previously used on our site.
                            > > Unfortunately, I don't have your number either, otherwise I would call
                            > > you today to chat. I share with you all the things above hoping that
                            > > you will email me privately so we can chat before your frustration
                            > > level rises further, and perhaps I can share with you my thoughts and
                            > > arguments in favor of the Elders and their decisions. I have some
                            > > ideas from studying the many documents, and detailing out the issues,
                            > > so that maybe it will be helpful to you as well. I believe it would
                            > > be worth a shot. Let me know if you are interested. Please give me a
                            > > chance if you don't mind.
                            > >
                            > > May the Lord be with you.
                            > > Walt.
                            > >
                            > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                            > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com>, Willena
                            Flewelling
                            > > <wrose@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Hi Katrina,
                            > > >
                            > > > >>> I thought of your **Willena** comments of not
                            > > > being ministered to for the last seven months...and wondered what
                            > > > really caused that? Why Willena did that happen? Was it just you
                            that
                            > > > went throught that or are there others having this experience? <<<
                            > > >
                            > > > To tell you the truth, I don't know why. I hate going by
                            perceptions or
                            > > > speculation alone, because I know how easy it is to come to the
                            wrong
                            > > > conclusions that way. But as I have nothing else to go on, it
                            > > appears to
                            > > > me it's because they know I am good friends with some who are now
                            > > > excommunicated or who have spoken publicly against things the elders
                            > > > have done in the past year.
                            > > >
                            > > > Willena
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
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