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[Covenanted Reformation] Re: Questions about "lawful" lying and the 6th commandm

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  • reformed_wild_child
    I obviously responded to the wrong post on this I was referring to Susan s response to Larry, just to be clear. ~Deejay ... As ... says
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 11, 2006
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      I obviously responded to the wrong post on this I was referring to
      Susan's response to Larry, just to be clear.

      ~Deejay


      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, reformed_wild_child
      <no_reply@...> wrote:
      >
      > On this thread just ignore any posts which come thru I made earlier.
      As
      > I have no wish to continue it, or fall out with folks. As this post
      says
      > what I could only say less well, better.
      >
      > ~Deejay
      >
      >
      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "susanandcrew"
      > gpyp@ wrote:
      > >
      > > Oh, hey, I knew y'all would come up with some justification for
      > > lying in one case that didn't apply to the other--I just wanted to
      > > know what it was! :) Now that I know it's "special pleading" I can
      > > rest.
      > >
      > > Now don't be exasperated...I'm just a nobody in an online forum. You
      > > can handle it. ;)
      > >
      > > No, seriously, I realize that we've reached an impass and said so in
      > > another post. I thoroughly enjoyed the discussion though.
      > >
      > > Susan
      > >
      > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "gus gianello"
      > > dr.gus.gianello@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Susan,
      > > > Over and over you are ignoring what I am saying. This is getting
      > > quite
      > > > fruitless. I specifically said that deception is only acceptable
      > > when NONE
      > > > of the other commandments is being broken. How could they lie
      > > about their
      > > > profession of faith---even under duress? That is NOT lying, that
      > > is
      > > > apostasy! What they did was perfectly honorable and glorifying to
      > > God,
      > > > because martyrdom could not be avoided without violating the first
      > > table of
      > > > the law. Remember, what Rahab did was deceive to save life; her
      > > deception
      > > > had put no one at risk but her pagan country men. She would NOT
      > > have been
      > > > commended if it was not an act of faith. Is it an act of faith to
      > > deny your
      > > > profession of faith?
      > > >
      > > > Gus
      > > >
      > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      > > > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
      > > susanandcrew
      > > > Sent: Tuesday, July 11, 2006 9:10 AM
      > > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Questions about "lawful"
      > > lying and the
      > > > 6th commandment
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Well I agree with your logic that if it's okay to lie for an
      > > > innocent third party that it must therefore be okay to lie for
      > > > yourself as well.
      > > >
      > > > Are you familiar with the case of Isabel Alison and Marion Harvey
      > > or
      > > > any of the other Scottish Covenanters who died during the killing
      > > > times? If so, are you prepared to say that Isabel Alison or any of
      > > > the others who were brought forward and questioned died fools
      > > since
      > > > they didn't lie during their inquisitions and their testimonies
      > > were
      > > > used against them to order their executions?
      > > >
      > > > Susan
      > > >
      > > > --- In covenantedreformati
      > > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > onclub@yahoogroups.com,
      > > > "gus gianello"
      > > > <dr.gus.gianello@> wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > Susan,
      > > > > Briefly. Have you read Eusebius's Ecclesiatical History. Much of
      > > > early
      > > > > Christian marytrdom WAS foolish. Martyr theology developed
      > > within
      > > > the
      > > > > context of imperial persecutions, and many came to believe that
      > > if
      > > > you were
      > > > > not willing to martyr you were an apostate. This in direct
      > > > opposition to
      > > > > the command of Jesus which is "if they persecute you in one city
      > > > you must
      > > > > fleee to the next." (Mat 10) Martyrdom only pleased God when it
      > > > is for his
      > > > > glory, unavoidable and necessary for the extension of the
      > > kingdom
      > > > of God.
      > > > >
      > > > > Secondly, its silly to say its ok to lie to save an innocent
      > > third
      > > > party,
      > > > > but its not OK to lie for yourself. Rahab lied to preserve first
      > > > the spies
      > > > > THEN herself. People depend on you, and your refusal to lie to
      > > > save
      > > > > yourself (even exclusively) puts them at risk. Also atruism is a
      > > > pagan
      > > > > ethical idea. Scripture teaches egoism. We are called to protect
      > > > the
      > > > > innocent, because God is glorified and because He rewards us.
      > > > Even if the
      > > > > only innocent person being protected is yourself. IF its OK to
      > > > lie to
      > > > > perserve anothers innocent life, THEN its OK to lie to preserve
      > > > your
      > > > > innocent life.
      > > > >
      > > > > Gus
      > > > >
      > > > > -----Original Message-----
      > > > > From: covenantedreformati
      > > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > onclub@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > [mailto:covenantedreformati
      > > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > onclub@yahoogroups.com]
      > > > On Behalf Of
      > > > susanandcrew
      > > > > Sent: Monday, July 10, 2006 5:33 PM
      > > > > To: covenantedreformati
      > > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > onclub@yahoogroups.com
      > > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Questions about "lawful" lying
      > > > and the 6th
      > > > > commandment
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > >
      > > > > I posted these questions this morning, but I think it's lost in
      > > > the
      > > > > Yahoo black hole so I'm reposting.
      > > > >
      > > > > I've seen some here say that they would lie to save an innocent
      > > > third
      > > > > party, but would not lie to save their own life. What is the
      > > > reason
      > > > > for this? If lying is the right response to save the life on
      > > > another
      > > > > isn't it also the right response to save our own life assuming
      > > > we're
      > > > > not justly being executed for a crime? It seems to me that if
      > > you
      > > > must
      > > > > lie to save an innocent third party then you must lie to save
      > > > yourself
      > > > > as well.
      > > > >
      > > > > If one must lie to save their own life then wouldn't that mean
      > > > that
      > > > > many of the martyrs died foolishly because they sinned by not
      > > > saving
      > > > > their life by lying?
      > > > >
      > > > > Susan
      > > > >
      > > >
      > >
      >
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