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What, not why, are the Biblical Marks of AntiChrist (1st or 2nd Dragon or Beast

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  • presby.dobee
    There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the WCF, and not believing that the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV: Church
    Message 1 of 18 , Apr 20, 2006
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      There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the WCF, and not believing that
      the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV:

      Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) The foregoing link is their third and latest of which I am
      aware. I can't find the pertinent information on their new site. However, the Church at their
      former site made the following statement:

      "For many the Westminster Confession reflects too much the spirit of its age. Attempts
      have been made to frame a modern Confession, but so far without success. The Church,
      however, has dissociated herself from those statements in the Westminster Confession
      that are hostile to the Roman Catholic Church and to the Pope." As I recall from their even
      earlier site, their retraction was made in 1984 or 1986!

      Presbyterian Church in America. (PCA) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6 of the Westminster
      Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist. Still maintains the other
      anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical vows" (Chap. 22, Art. 7); forbidding
      marriage to "papists" (Chap. 24, Art. 3); and the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an
      abomination (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Preface indicates "anti-Christ" provision was removed in
      1973.

      Orthodox Presbyterian Church. (OPC) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6 of the Westminster
      Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist. OPC's version here,
      apparently the 1936 version, leaves the implication that the Pope may still be the
      "antichrist" in Footnote 14 with the cites to 2 Thess. 2:3-4, 8-9; Rev. 3:6. These cites were
      apparently removed in 1978. Still maintains the other anti-Catholic provisions regarding
      "Popish monastical vows" (Chap. 22, Art. 7); forbidding marriage to "papists" (Chap. 24,
      Art. 3); and the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an abomination (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Here's
      OPC's Home Page

      Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARPC) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6 of
      Westminster Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist. Also modified
      Chap. 24, Art. 3 by deleting the forbidding of marriage to "papists." Still maintains the
      other anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical vows" (Chap. 22, Art. 7) and
      the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an abomination (Chap. 29, Art. 2) Their latest
      modification of the Westminster Confession was in 1984!

      presby.dobee
    • Hammer Of the malignants
      Well I not qualified to join in this discussion apart from, folks today as opposed to the truth tellers of the WEsminster Assembly will mostly go for
      Message 2 of 18 , Apr 20, 2006
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        Well I not qualified to join in this discussion apart from,  folks today as opposed to the truth tellers of the WEsminster Assembly will mostly go for political correctedness at the cost of truth. (its part of the age we live in)

         

        Personally have always thought it somewhat arrogant, whether its an individual Christian or a modern body of Christians, who for one moment think they have more knowledge of the Scriptures than the Westminster Divines.  And with justifiable cause I think to think that.
         
        Other than that, I got nothng to say.

         

        ~Deejay

         

        -----Original Message-----
        From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of presby.dobee
        Sent: 20 April 2006 23:49
        To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] What, not why, are the Biblical Marks of AntiChrist (1st or 2nd Dragon or Beast

         

        There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the WCF, and not believing that
        the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV:

        Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) The foregoing link is their third and latest of which I am
        aware. I can't find the pertinent information on their new site. However, the Church at their
        former site made the following statement:




      • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
        .dobee, Ever heard of the word apostasy? The Pope IS The Anti-Christ. Edgar ... and not believing that ... third and latest of which I am ... However, the
        Message 3 of 18 , Apr 20, 2006
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          .dobee,

          Ever heard of the word apostasy?


          The Pope IS The Anti-Christ.

          Edgar

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "presby.dobee"
          <presby.dobee@...> wrote:
          >
          > There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the WCF,
          and not believing that
          > the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV:
          >
          > Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) The foregoing link is their
          third and latest of which I am
          > aware. I can't find the pertinent information on their new site.
          However, the Church at their
          > former site made the following statement:
          >
          > "For many the Westminster Confession reflects too much the spirit
          of its age. Attempts
          > have been made to frame a modern Confession, but so far without
          success. The Church,
          > however, has dissociated herself from those statements in the
          Westminster Confession
          > that are hostile to the Roman Catholic Church and to the Pope." As
          I recall from their even
          > earlier site, their retraction was made in 1984 or 1986!
          >
          > Presbyterian Church in America. (PCA) Modified Chapter 25, Article
          6 of the Westminster
          > Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist.
          Still maintains the other
          > anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical vows" (Chap.
          22, Art. 7); forbidding
          > marriage to "papists" (Chap. 24, Art. 3); and the "Popish
          Sacrifice of the Mass" as an
          > abomination (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Preface indicates "anti-Christ"
          provision was removed in
          > 1973.
          >
          > Orthodox Presbyterian Church. (OPC) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6
          of the Westminster
          > Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist.
          OPC's version here,
          > apparently the 1936 version, leaves the implication that the Pope
          may still be the
          > "antichrist" in Footnote 14 with the cites to 2 Thess. 2:3-4, 8-9;
          Rev. 3:6. These cites were
          > apparently removed in 1978. Still maintains the other anti-
          Catholic provisions regarding
          > "Popish monastical vows" (Chap. 22, Art. 7); forbidding marriage
          to "papists" (Chap. 24,
          > Art. 3); and the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an abomination
          (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Here's
          > OPC's Home Page
          >
          > Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARPC) Modified Chapter 25,
          Article 6 of
          > Westminster Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the
          Antichrist. Also modified
          > Chap. 24, Art. 3 by deleting the forbidding of marriage
          to "papists." Still maintains the
          > other anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical vows"
          (Chap. 22, Art. 7) and
          > the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an abomination (Chap. 29,
          Art. 2) Their latest
          > modification of the Westminster Confession was in 1984!
          >
          > presby.dobee
          >
        • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
          Let he who does not fear the Truth read: http://www.truecovenanter.com/sermons/compleat_collection_farewel_sermon s_watson_1_cor_10_14.html
          Message 4 of 18 , Apr 20, 2006
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            Let he who does not fear the Truth read:

            http://www.truecovenanter.com/sermons/compleat_collection_farewel_sermons_watson_1_cor_10_14.html

            http://www.truecovenanter.com/anti_papacy/bradford_confutation_of_rome.html

            http://www.truecovenanter.com/knox/knox_answer_to_a_jesuit_named_tyrie.html

             

            Flee mystery Bablyon friends, for the Lord's wrath is upon the Church of Rome and the Popes!!

            Presbyterians RETURN to the old paths and stop flirting with the Pope and his devilish doctrines and so-called good innovations in doctrine, worship, church government, & church discipline!

            Recognize,  as our fore-fathers did, that the Papacy is The Anti-Christ!!!

            Don't let the devil in a bright white light deceive you brethren!

            Edgar

             


            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "presby.dobee" <presby.dobee@...> wrote:
            >
            > There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the WCF, and not believing that
            > the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV:
            >
            > Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) The foregoing link is their third and latest of which I am
            > aware. I can't find the pertinent information on their new site. However, the Church at their
            > former site made the following statement:
            >
            > "For many the Westminster Confession reflects too much the spirit of its age. Attempts
            > have been made to frame a modern Confession, but so far without success. The Church,
            > however, has dissociated herself from those statements in the Westminster Confession
            > that are hostile to the Roman Catholic Church and to the Pope." As I recall from their even
            > earlier site, their retraction was made in 1984 or 1986!
            >
            > Presbyterian Church in America. (PCA) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6 of the Westminster
            > Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist. Still maintains the other
            > anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical vows" (Chap. 22, Art. 7); forbidding
            > marriage to "papists" (Chap. 24, Art. 3); and the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an
            > abomination (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Preface indicates "anti-Christ" provision was removed in
            > 1973.
            >
            > Orthodox Presbyterian Church. (OPC) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6 of the Westminster
            > Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist. OPC's version here,
            > apparently the 1936 version, leaves the implication that the Pope may still be the
            > "antichrist" in Footnote 14 with the cites to 2 Thess. 2:3-4, 8-9; Rev. 3:6. These cites were
            > apparently removed in 1978. Still maintains the other anti-Catholic provisions regarding
            > "Popish monastical vows" (Chap. 22, Art. 7); forbidding marriage to "papists" (Chap. 24,
            > Art. 3); and the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an abomination (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Here's
            > OPC's Home Page
            >
            > Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARPC) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6 of
            > Westminster Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist. Also modified
            > Chap. 24, Art. 3 by deleting the forbidding of marriage to "papists." Still maintains the
            > other anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical vows" (Chap. 22, Art. 7) and
            > the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an abomination (Chap. 29, Art. 2) Their latest
            > modification of the Westminster Confession was in 1984!
            >
            > presby.dobee
            >

          • presby.dobee
            DeeJay wrote: And with justifiable cause I think to think that. Please elaborate. presby.dobee
            Message 5 of 18 , Apr 21, 2006
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              DeeJay wrote:" And with justifiable cause I think to think that." Please elaborate.
              presby.dobee

              >
              > Other than that, I got nothng to say.
              >
              >
              >
              > ~Deejay
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > *From:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
              > covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *presby.dobee
              > *Sent:* 20 April 2006 23:49
              > *To:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              > *Subject:* [Covenanted Reformation] What, not why, are the Biblical Marks of
              > AntiChrist (1st or 2nd Dragon or Beast
              >
              >
              >
              > There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the WCF, and not
              > believing that
              > the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV:
              >
              > Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) The foregoing link is their third and
              > latest of which I am
              > aware. I can't find the pertinent information on their new site. However,
              > the Church at their
              > former site made the following statement:
              >
              > ------------------------------
              >
            • presby.dobee
              Is the Beast or the Dragon the Papacy, in Rev. 13? Please use King James s, KJV. presby.dobee
              Message 6 of 18 , Apr 21, 2006
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                Is the "Beast" or the "Dragon" the Papacy, in Rev. 13? Please use King James's, KJV.
                presby.dobee

                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra Jr."
                <puritanpresbyterian@...> wrote:
                >
                > .dobee,
                >
                > Ever heard of the word apostasy?
                >
                >
                > The Pope IS The Anti-Christ.
                >
                > Edgar
                >
                > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "presby.dobee"
                > <presby.dobee@> wrote:
                > >
                > > There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the WCF,
                > and not believing that
                > > the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV:
                > >
                > > Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) The foregoing link is their
                > third and latest of which I am
                > > aware. I can't find the pertinent information on their new site.
                > However, the Church at their
                > > former site made the following statement:
                > >
                > > "For many the Westminster Confession reflects too much the spirit
                > of its age. Attempts
                > > have been made to frame a modern Confession, but so far without
                > success. The Church,
                > > however, has dissociated herself from those statements in the
                > Westminster Confession
                > > that are hostile to the Roman Catholic Church and to the Pope." As
                > I recall from their even
                > > earlier site, their retraction was made in 1984 or 1986!
                > >
                > > Presbyterian Church in America. (PCA) Modified Chapter 25, Article
                > 6 of the Westminster
                > > Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist.
                > Still maintains the other
                > > anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical vows" (Chap.
                > 22, Art. 7); forbidding
                > > marriage to "papists" (Chap. 24, Art. 3); and the "Popish
                > Sacrifice of the Mass" as an
                > > abomination (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Preface indicates "anti-Christ"
                > provision was removed in
                > > 1973.
                > >
                > > Orthodox Presbyterian Church. (OPC) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6
                > of the Westminster
                > > Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist.
                > OPC's version here,
                > > apparently the 1936 version, leaves the implication that the Pope
                > may still be the
                > > "antichrist" in Footnote 14 with the cites to 2 Thess. 2:3-4, 8-9;
                > Rev. 3:6. These cites were
                > > apparently removed in 1978. Still maintains the other anti-
                > Catholic provisions regarding
                > > "Popish monastical vows" (Chap. 22, Art. 7); forbidding marriage
                > to "papists" (Chap. 24,
                > > Art. 3); and the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an abomination
                > (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Here's
                > > OPC's Home Page
                > >
                > > Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARPC) Modified Chapter 25,
                > Article 6 of
                > > Westminster Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the
                > Antichrist. Also modified
                > > Chap. 24, Art. 3 by deleting the forbidding of marriage
                > to "papists." Still maintains the
                > > other anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical vows"
                > (Chap. 22, Art. 7) and
                > > the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an abomination (Chap. 29,
                > Art. 2) Their latest
                > > modification of the Westminster Confession was in 1984!
                > >
                > > presby.dobee
                > >
                >
              • presby.dobee
                DeeJay, the Apostles spoke with the infallible voice of God, when under the direct inspiration of the the Holy Ghost; the Westminster Divines, when
                Message 7 of 18 , Apr 21, 2006
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                  DeeJay, the Apostles spoke with the infallible voice of God, when under the direct
                  inspiration of the the Holy Ghost; the Westminster Divines, when interpreting the infallible
                  writings of an inspired writer, with the voice of fallible man. One can easily prove this by
                  reading an apostolic i.e., infallible epistle in the KJV. I am not saying that the Apostles
                  were God(s). This is an important distinction to bear in mind. That is why I asked how you
                  justify your claim. I trust you will see what I mean.
                  presby.dobee

                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Hammer Of the malignants"
                  <group.only@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Well I not qualified to join in this discussion apart from, folks today as
                  > opposed to the truth tellers of the WEsminster Assembly will mostly go for
                  > political correctedness at the cost of truth. (its part of the age we live
                  > in)
                  >
                  >
                  > Personally have always thought it somewhat arrogant, whether its an
                  > individual Christian or a modern body of Christians, who for one moment
                  > think they have more knowledge of the Scriptures than the Westminster
                  > Divines. And with justifiable cause I think to think that.
                  >
                  > Other than that, I got nothng to say.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ~Deejay
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > *From:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:
                  > covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of *presby.dobee
                  > *Sent:* 20 April 2006 23:49
                  > *To:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                  > *Subject:* [Covenanted Reformation] What, not why, are the Biblical Marks of
                  > AntiChrist (1st or 2nd Dragon or Beast
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the WCF, and not
                  > believing that
                  > the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV:
                  >
                  > Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) The foregoing link is their third and
                  > latest of which I am
                  > aware. I can't find the pertinent information on their new site. However,
                  > the Church at their
                  > former site made the following statement:
                  >
                  > ------------------------------
                  >
                • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                  .dobee, I gave you a bunch of questions. You have yet to answer. Consider this my last remark to you, until you answer my questions. Edgar ... King James s,
                  Message 8 of 18 , Apr 21, 2006
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                    .dobee,

                    I gave you a bunch of questions.

                    You have yet to answer.

                    Consider this my last remark to you, until you answer my questions.

                    Edgar

                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "presby.dobee"
                    <presby.dobee@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Is the "Beast" or the "Dragon" the Papacy, in Rev. 13? Please use
                    King James's, KJV.
                    > presby.dobee
                    >
                    > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                    Jr."
                    > <puritanpresbyterian@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > .dobee,
                    > >
                    > > Ever heard of the word apostasy?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The Pope IS The Anti-Christ.
                    > >
                    > > Edgar
                    > >
                    > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "presby.dobee"
                    > > <presby.dobee@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the
                    WCF,
                    > > and not believing that
                    > > > the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV:
                    > > >
                    > > > Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) The foregoing link is their
                    > > third and latest of which I am
                    > > > aware. I can't find the pertinent information on their new
                    site.
                    > > However, the Church at their
                    > > > former site made the following statement:
                    > > >
                    > > > "For many the Westminster Confession reflects too much the
                    spirit
                    > > of its age. Attempts
                    > > > have been made to frame a modern Confession, but so far
                    without
                    > > success. The Church,
                    > > > however, has dissociated herself from those statements in the
                    > > Westminster Confession
                    > > > that are hostile to the Roman Catholic Church and to the
                    Pope." As
                    > > I recall from their even
                    > > > earlier site, their retraction was made in 1984 or 1986!
                    > > >
                    > > > Presbyterian Church in America. (PCA) Modified Chapter 25,
                    Article
                    > > 6 of the Westminster
                    > > > Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the
                    Antichrist.
                    > > Still maintains the other
                    > > > anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical vows"
                    (Chap.
                    > > 22, Art. 7); forbidding
                    > > > marriage to "papists" (Chap. 24, Art. 3); and the "Popish
                    > > Sacrifice of the Mass" as an
                    > > > abomination (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Preface indicates "anti-
                    Christ"
                    > > provision was removed in
                    > > > 1973.
                    > > >
                    > > > Orthodox Presbyterian Church. (OPC) Modified Chapter 25,
                    Article 6
                    > > of the Westminster
                    > > > Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the
                    Antichrist.
                    > > OPC's version here,
                    > > > apparently the 1936 version, leaves the implication that the
                    Pope
                    > > may still be the
                    > > > "antichrist" in Footnote 14 with the cites to 2 Thess. 2:3-4,
                    8-9;
                    > > Rev. 3:6. These cites were
                    > > > apparently removed in 1978. Still maintains the other anti-
                    > > Catholic provisions regarding
                    > > > "Popish monastical vows" (Chap. 22, Art. 7); forbidding
                    marriage
                    > > to "papists" (Chap. 24,
                    > > > Art. 3); and the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an
                    abomination
                    > > (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Here's
                    > > > OPC's Home Page
                    > > >
                    > > > Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARPC) Modified Chapter
                    25,
                    > > Article 6 of
                    > > > Westminster Confession to delete reference to the Pope being
                    the
                    > > Antichrist. Also modified
                    > > > Chap. 24, Art. 3 by deleting the forbidding of marriage
                    > > to "papists." Still maintains the
                    > > > other anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical
                    vows"
                    > > (Chap. 22, Art. 7) and
                    > > > the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an abomination (Chap.
                    29,
                    > > Art. 2) Their latest
                    > > > modification of the Westminster Confession was in 1984!
                    > > >
                    > > > presby.dobee
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • forisraelssake
                    lol @ the KJV 1769 requirement. I myself *insist* on the authentic 1611 edition, and not any of the later diabolic corruptions when I read the Reuelation of
                    Message 9 of 18 , Apr 22, 2006
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                      lol @ the KJV 1769 requirement. I myself *insist* on the authentic
                      1611 edition, and not any of the later diabolic corruptions when I
                      read the Reuelation of S.Iohn the Diuine.

                      http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?TextID=kjbible&PagePosition=1487

                      Anyway, isnt it about that time when GG should be getting banned?

                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "presby.dobee"
                      <presby.dobee@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Is the "Beast" or the "Dragon" the Papacy, in Rev. 13? Please use
                      King James's, KJV.
                      > presby.dobee
                      >
                      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra Jr."
                      > <puritanpresbyterian@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > .dobee,
                      > >
                      > > Ever heard of the word apostasy?
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The Pope IS The Anti-Christ.
                      > >
                      > > Edgar
                      > >
                      > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "presby.dobee"
                      > > <presby.dobee@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the WCF,
                      > > and not believing that
                      > > > the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV:
                      > > >
                    • hammer_of_the_malignants
                      ... wrote: I don t have it in me to elaborate much right now, and not sure I should even if I did, as other folks here could do it much
                      Message 10 of 18 , Apr 22, 2006
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                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "presby.dobee"
                        <presby.dobee@...> wrote:

                        I don't have it in me to elaborate much right now, and not sure I
                        should even if I did, as other folks here could do it much more
                        ably. But if you know the history of the work that went into the
                        Westminster Standards and the calibre of men who actually did the
                        work, I don't think many Christians today would be willing to say
                        they had their learning, understanding of the Scriptures or piety..
                        and I think many of us would like to think we would lay down our
                        lives for our faith, but it may be a very different story if
                        actually asked to do so..those men did more than just talk during
                        peaceful times.. so, I think historically its pretty self
                        explanatory.

                        And sorry I not meaning offence to anyone here by the above, or
                        questioning anyones integrity, but I don't think the combined level
                        of godliness as accumulated at the Assembly is likely to be
                        surpassed. It certainly hasn't been up to the current time.

                        Other than that, I still have nothing to say. And didn't intend to
                        say that much.

                        ~Deejay


                        >
                        > DeeJay wrote:" And with justifiable cause I think to think that."
                        Please elaborate.
                        > presby.dobee
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Other than that, I got nothng to say.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ~Deejay
                        >
                      • presby.dobee
                        1611 had the Apocrypha, as did the original Geneva Bible. Which version would you like to use? Either one will work. presby.dobee lol @ the KJV 1769
                        Message 11 of 18 , Apr 22, 2006
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                          1611 had the Apocrypha, as did the original Geneva Bible. Which
                          version would you like to use? Either one will work.
                          presby.dobee




                          lol @ the KJV 1769 requirement. I myself *insist* on the authentic
                          > 1611 edition,



                          and not any of the later diabolic corruptions when I
                          > read the Reuelation of S.Iohn the Diuine.
                          >
                          > http://dewey.library.upenn.edu/sceti/printedbooksNew/index.cfm?
                          TextID=kjbible&PagePosition=1487
                          >
                          > Anyway, isnt it about that time when GG should be getting banned?
                          >
                          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "presby.dobee"
                          > <presby.dobee@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Is the "Beast" or the "Dragon" the Papacy, in Rev. 13? Please use
                          > King James's, KJV.
                          > > presby.dobee
                          > >
                          > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A.
                          Ibarra Jr."
                          > > <puritanpresbyterian@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > .dobee,
                          > > >
                          > > > Ever heard of the word apostasy?
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > The Pope IS The Anti-Christ.
                          > > >
                          > > > Edgar
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In
                          covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "presby.dobee"
                          > > > <presby.dobee@> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the
                          WCF,
                          > > > and not believing that
                          > > > > the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV:
                          > > > >
                          >
                        • Hammer Of the malignants
                          Well, Dobee, I hope someone found that instructional. I not the brightest bulb in the box, but even I not need patronizing by pointing out something THAT
                          Message 12 of 18 , Apr 25, 2006
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                            Well, Dobee,  I  hope someone found that instructional.  I not the brightest bulb in the box, but even I not need patronizing by pointing out something THAT obvious.   I was never implying the divines were inspired.  I justified my claim, by the historical account of the WEstminster Assembly and the lives and actions of the men involved. Not by claiming they had the same inspiration as the Apostles.   IOW Living their faith when it was dangerous times to do that. Those who put the bits into the OPC and so forth you quoted, I doubt could have the same strength of testimony of faith, for actually living it out, to the point some of the divines did, (IOW to death). I doubt many in the Western world today could. But they can have the testimony of  thinking they have modern day answers.Actions always speak louder than words.
                             
                            I don't recall without checking precisely what the original point was about. But know it was to do with some modification on the WCF or standards.  The revolutionary church took such a backsliding approach by only keeping the WCF and omitting the rest of the standards, and there started teh slippery slope. It doesn't seem that disimilar.  We should all learn from history, both good and bad.
                             
                            I haven't followed all that's been said about your name, but wondered if it was anything to do with Scooby dobee doo?  (personally I liked Scrappy Doo better)  Tho Scooby was fine too.
                             
                            ~Deejay

                             
                            On 21/04/06, presby.dobee <presby.dobee@...> wrote:
                            DeeJay, the Apostles spoke with the infallible voice of God, when under the direct
                            inspiration of the the Holy Ghost; the Westminster Divines, when interpreting the infallible
                            writings of an inspired writer, with the voice of fallible man. One can easily prove this by
                            reading an apostolic i.e., infallible epistle in the KJV.  I am not saying that the Apostles
                            were God(s). This is an important distinction to bear in mind. That is why I asked how you
                            justify your claim. I trust you will see what I mean.
                            presby.dobee

                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Hammer Of the malignants"

                          • friendly_little_soul
                            ... wrote: In case you forgot, this was what you answered about. Nothing to do with apostolic inspiration. But that you beleive you can
                            Message 13 of 18 , Apr 26, 2006
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                              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "presby.dobee"
                              <presby.dobee@...> wrote:

                              In case you forgot, this was what you answered about. Nothing to do
                              with apostolic inspiration. But that you beleive you can subscribe
                              to the WCF except for the bits you don't like.

                              I was posting this somewhere else,so will copy and paste, which
                              given the context of what I was trying (maybe inaffectually) to say
                              says it alot, alot better. I really don't think the modified
                              articles you quoted below, can have the same said about them.

                              "If there ever was a document, therefore, whose contents might be
                              expected to exhbit that genius, the essence of which consists we are
                              told, in taking pains, it assuredly is the Westminster Confession of
                              Faith. And when we read its exquisitely balanced phrases, and are
                              moved with admiration for the pefection of the guarding which it
                              gives to its doctrinal propositions on this side and that, we are
                              reaping the benefit of these repeated views which the Assembly was
                              forced to give the whole matter, perhaps even more than of the
                              minute scrutiny it lavished on the formulation of it on the final
                              occasion of its actual incorporation into the Confession. And when,
                              after this, and in the light of all the experience gained by such
                              repeated reviews of the material, first the Larger Catechism, and
                              then the Shorter Catechism were elaborated, it is not at all strange
                              that a precision of definition was attained which has called forth
                              such praises as these documents, and especially the Shorter
                              Catechism, have recieved from the most varied quarters." [B.B.
                              Warfield]
                              >
                              > There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the WCF,
                              and not believing that
                              > the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV:
                              >
                              > Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) The foregoing link is their
                              third and latest of which I am
                              > aware. I can't find the pertinent information on their new site.
                              However, the Church at their
                              > former site made the following statement:
                              >
                              > "For many the Westminster Confession reflects too much the spirit
                              of its age. Attempts
                              > have been made to frame a modern Confession, but so far without
                              success. The Church,
                              > however, has dissociated herself from those statements in the
                              Westminster Confession
                              > that are hostile to the Roman Catholic Church and to the Pope." As
                              I recall from their even
                              > earlier site, their retraction was made in 1984 or 1986!
                              >
                              > Presbyterian Church in America. (PCA) Modified Chapter 25, Article
                              6 of the Westminster
                              > Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist.
                              Still maintains the other
                              > anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical vows" (Chap.
                              22, Art. 7); forbidding
                              > marriage to "papists" (Chap. 24, Art. 3); and the "Popish
                              Sacrifice of the Mass" as an
                              > abomination (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Preface indicates "anti-Christ"
                              provision was removed in
                              > 1973.
                              >
                              > Orthodox Presbyterian Church. (OPC) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6
                              of the Westminster
                              > Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist.
                              OPC's version here,
                              > apparently the 1936 version, leaves the implication that the Pope
                              may still be the
                              > "antichrist" in Footnote 14 with the cites to 2 Thess. 2:3-4, 8-9;
                              Rev. 3:6. These cites were
                              > apparently removed in 1978. Still maintains the other anti-
                              Catholic provisions regarding
                              > "Popish monastical vows" (Chap. 22, Art. 7); forbidding marriage
                              to "papists" (Chap. 24,
                              > Art. 3); and the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an abomination
                              (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Here's
                              > OPC's Home Page
                              >
                              > Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARPC) Modified Chapter 25,
                              Article 6 of
                              > Westminster Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the
                              Antichrist. Also modified
                              > Chap. 24, Art. 3 by deleting the forbidding of marriage
                              to "papists." Still maintains the
                              > other anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical vows"
                              (Chap. 22, Art. 7) and
                              > the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an abomination (Chap. 29,
                              Art. 2) Their latest
                              > modification of the Westminster Confession was in 1984!
                              >
                              > presby.dobee
                              >
                            • friendly_little_soul
                              ... wrote: I have a question for you if I may? How can you say you (or anyone) subscribes to the WCF (except for the bits you don t like)
                              Message 14 of 18 , Apr 26, 2006
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                                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "presby.dobee"
                                <presby.dobee@...> wrote:

                                I have a question for you if I may? How can you say you (or anyone)
                                subscribes to the WCF (except for the bits you don't like) yet at the
                                same time exalt his popeness, when one of the main reasons the
                                aseembly convened was to fight against Erastianism. As whether king
                                or pope, its still a form of erastianism. I'm no great logician, but
                                that don't seem logical to me.

                                ~Deejay

                                >
                                > There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the WCF,
                                and not believing that
                                > the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV:
                                >
                              • presby.dobee
                                Deejay, who has a better understanding of Scripture, an Apostle, or a Westminster Divine? I understand you were talking about teh Westminster Divines, but you
                                Message 15 of 18 , Apr 26, 2006
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                                  Deejay, who has a better understanding of Scripture, an Apostle, or a Westminster Divine?
                                  I understand you were talking about teh Westminster Divines, but you need to be careful
                                  about what you say of any fallible men, as complared to the infallible, (when inspired by
                                  the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity) the Apostles.
                                  You had differing opinions in the Westminster Assembly, which still existed after the
                                  compiliation of the WCF. The Scriptures can correct any misunderstandings. My point is
                                  that there exist Presbyterian Churches that differ in their opinion on what Scripture
                                  teaches. That is why I ask to identify the Biblical marks of AntiChrist i.e., what they are.
                                  Feel free to do so.
                                  presby.dobee


                                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "friendly_little_soul"
                                  <group.only@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "presby.dobee"
                                  > <presby.dobee@> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > In case you forgot, this was what you answered about. Nothing to do
                                  > with apostolic inspiration. But that you beleive you can subscribe
                                  > to the WCF except for the bits you don't like.
                                  >
                                  > I was posting this somewhere else,so will copy and paste, which
                                  > given the context of what I was trying (maybe inaffectually) to say
                                  > says it alot, alot better. I really don't think the modified
                                  > articles you quoted below, can have the same said about them.
                                  >
                                  > "If there ever was a document, therefore, whose contents might be
                                  > expected to exhbit that genius, the essence of which consists we are
                                  > told, in taking pains, it assuredly is the Westminster Confession of
                                  > Faith. And when we read its exquisitely balanced phrases, and are
                                  > moved with admiration for the pefection of the guarding which it
                                  > gives to its doctrinal propositions on this side and that, we are
                                  > reaping the benefit of these repeated views which the Assembly was
                                  > forced to give the whole matter, perhaps even more than of the
                                  > minute scrutiny it lavished on the formulation of it on the final
                                  > occasion of its actual incorporation into the Confession. And when,
                                  > after this, and in the light of all the experience gained by such
                                  > repeated reviews of the material, first the Larger Catechism, and
                                  > then the Shorter Catechism were elaborated, it is not at all strange
                                  > that a precision of definition was attained which has called forth
                                  > such praises as these documents, and especially the Shorter
                                  > Catechism, have recieved from the most varied quarters." [B.B.
                                  > Warfield]
                                  > >
                                  > > There is nothing incompatible with being a subscriber to the WCF,
                                  > and not believing that
                                  > > the Pope is AntiChrist, if it is cannot be proved in the KJV:
                                  > >
                                  > > Church of Scotland (Presbyterian) The foregoing link is their
                                  > third and latest of which I am
                                  > > aware. I can't find the pertinent information on their new site.
                                  > However, the Church at their
                                  > > former site made the following statement:
                                  > >
                                  > > "For many the Westminster Confession reflects too much the spirit
                                  > of its age. Attempts
                                  > > have been made to frame a modern Confession, but so far without
                                  > success. The Church,
                                  > > however, has dissociated herself from those statements in the
                                  > Westminster Confession
                                  > > that are hostile to the Roman Catholic Church and to the Pope." As
                                  > I recall from their even
                                  > > earlier site, their retraction was made in 1984 or 1986!
                                  > >
                                  > > Presbyterian Church in America. (PCA) Modified Chapter 25, Article
                                  > 6 of the Westminster
                                  > > Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist.
                                  > Still maintains the other
                                  > > anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical vows" (Chap.
                                  > 22, Art. 7); forbidding
                                  > > marriage to "papists" (Chap. 24, Art. 3); and the "Popish
                                  > Sacrifice of the Mass" as an
                                  > > abomination (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Preface indicates "anti-Christ"
                                  > provision was removed in
                                  > > 1973.
                                  > >
                                  > > Orthodox Presbyterian Church. (OPC) Modified Chapter 25, Article 6
                                  > of the Westminster
                                  > > Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the Antichrist.
                                  > OPC's version here,
                                  > > apparently the 1936 version, leaves the implication that the Pope
                                  > may still be the
                                  > > "antichrist" in Footnote 14 with the cites to 2 Thess. 2:3-4, 8-9;
                                  > Rev. 3:6. These cites were
                                  > > apparently removed in 1978. Still maintains the other anti-
                                  > Catholic provisions regarding
                                  > > "Popish monastical vows" (Chap. 22, Art. 7); forbidding marriage
                                  > to "papists" (Chap. 24,
                                  > > Art. 3); and the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an abomination
                                  > (Chap. 29, Art. 2.) Here's
                                  > > OPC's Home Page
                                  > >
                                  > > Associate Reformed Presbyterian Church (ARPC) Modified Chapter 25,
                                  > Article 6 of
                                  > > Westminster Confession to delete reference to the Pope being the
                                  > Antichrist. Also modified
                                  > > Chap. 24, Art. 3 by deleting the forbidding of marriage
                                  > to "papists." Still maintains the
                                  > > other anti-Catholic provisions regarding "Popish monastical vows"
                                  > (Chap. 22, Art. 7) and
                                  > > the "Popish Sacrifice of the Mass" as an abomination (Chap. 29,
                                  > Art. 2) Their latest
                                  > > modification of the Westminster Confession was in 1984!
                                  > >
                                  > > presby.dobee
                                  > >
                                  >
                                • Deejay
                                  Well talking about being careful what one says of ANY fallible man. I AGREE. But then I’m not a follower of the infallible pope! You could at least be
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Apr 26, 2006
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                                    Well talking about being careful what one says of ANY fallible man.  I AGREE. But then I’m not a follower of the infallible pope!  You could at least be consistent.

                                     

                                    But inconsistency is hard to argue against. Much like Scripture is bent out of shape when we only agree with the bits we like.  And yes, I do believe the WCF is a faithful document, and that it guards the treasure God gave to us, (timothy books) yet theres only you asperting about the divines being infallible.  So, I shall just hush right up,  as Scripture talks quite plainly about answering folly.  And sorry, but that’s how it seems to me. If I’m wrong, then I apologize.  But to put your own connotations on other peoples words, is not a friendly thing to do. Friendly little soul no like! L

                                     

                                    ~Deejay

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                     

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of presby.dobee
                                    Sent: 27 April 2006 01:53
                                    To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: What, not why, are the Biblical Marks of AntiChrist (1st or 2nd Dragon or Beast

                                     

                                    Deejay, who has a better understanding of Scripture, an Apostle, or a Westminster Divine?
                                    I understand you were talking about teh Westminster Divines, but you need to be careful
                                    about what you say of any fallible men, as complared to the infallible, (when inspired by
                                    the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity) the Apostles.
                                    You had differing opinions in the Westminster Assembly, which still existed after the
                                    compiliation of the WCF. The Scriptures can correct any misunderstandings. My point is
                                    that  there exist Presbyterian Churches that differ in their opinion on what Scripture
                                    teaches. That is why I ask to identify the Biblical marks of AntiChrist i.e., what they are.
                                    Feel free to do so.
                                    presby.dobee





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                                  • friendly_little_soul
                                    I d just like to correct one error in the below, (since I can t sleep!)for the readers benefit, not to continue the discussion, as I have better things to do
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Apr 26, 2006
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                                      I'd just like to correct one error in the below, (since I can't sleep!)for the readers benefit, not to continue the discussion,  as I have better things to do than encourage what seems to me like foolish folly,  but this:

                                      " You had differing opinions in the Westminster Assembly, which still existed after the

                                      > compiliation of the WCF."

                                      Its a historical fact, that many of the divines who gathered in the assembly started out with one opinion or view of something, and after the assembly came away with other views which were in line with the standards, but there views had not been when they entered into it. They had humility enough to admit they were wrong and so change their original views.   Its not as black and white or as diverse as the quote above makes it sound.  Anyone can misread or misrepresent what anyone says today, but you can't  do the same with historical accounts, backed up by countless records.


                                      "The oracles of God foretold the rising of an Antichrist in the
                                      Christian Church: and in the Pope of Rome, all the characteristics of
                                      that Antichrist are so marvelously answered that if any who read the
                                      Scriptures do not see it, there is a marvelous blindness upon them."  Cotton Mather 

                                      (Read 2 Thess 2 for the marks of the anti-Christ which can ONLY be the papacy)

                                      Sorry, Jerry. I shut up now. Just some things get my goat.  W. Assembly bashing or detracting from  being one of them.  That was the only reason I joined in the discussion.  But I not arguing with what seems like foolish folly no more!! 

                                      ~Deejay


                                       

                                    • presby.dobee
                                      Friendly, you said: Read 2 Thess 2 for the marks of the anti-Christ which can ONLY be the papacy. Would you do me the good pleasure of doing that for me?
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Apr 27, 2006
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                                        Friendly, you said: "Read 2 Thess 2 for the marks of the anti-Christ which can ONLY be the
                                        papacy." Would you do me the good pleasure of doing that for me?
                                        presby.dobee
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