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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?

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  • Cheryl Grenon
    Dear Fred, I have been reading Douglas Wilson s blog for some time now. If he is defending a de-frocked minister, then I know nothing of that. Even if he were
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 19, 2006
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      Dear Fred,
       
      I have been reading Douglas Wilson's blog for some time now. If he is defending a de-frocked minister, then I know nothing of that.  Even if he were doing this, the principles in the article are sound, imho.
       
      I think we need to be careful to read source material as opposed to people's opinions of what is going on.  Otherwise it is too easy to make mistakes about what people actually said or what they actually are.  Reg Barrow is a case in point.  He is neither a minister nor a ruling elder. 
       
      Yours and His,
      Cheryl
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:22 AM
      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?

      G'day Cheryl,

      I would be weary of anything coming from cult-leader Doug Wilson. He
      wrote this stuff to try to justify a defrocked minister deposed by
      the RPC-GA, and is now trying to get him into the schismatic CRE,
      which he founded to blend Independents, Anabaptists, and Episcopals
      with so-called Presbyterians.

      His atrocious defense of Chattel slavery, unconfessional embrace of
      Auburn Avenue, idolatrous blending of dark and light, covering up of
      dope dealing, and illegal casinos, combined with constant
      villification of everyone who disagrees with him (including Pastor
      Reg Barrow) has caused much dishonor to Christ's name in Moscow,
      Idaho.

      All the best,
      Fred.

      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Cheryl Grenon"
      <cheryl@...> wrote:
      >
      > I don't know about this guy, but here is a blog post from Douglas
      Wilson that I posted and linked to on my blog concerning the
      tendency of people to shoot their mouth off on the internet... 
      Could be that his words apply here.
      >
      >
      > From Douglas Wilson's blog
      >
      > Trial By Internet Topic: A Justice Primer
      >
      > The Bible tells us that the man who is able to tame the tongue is
      able to deal with anything. The tongue is a restless evil, he says,
      full of poison. It sets the world on fire, and is set on fire by
      hell. As long as sin has been in the world, this has been true, but
      whenever new means of communication are developed, sin eagerly
      rushes in often before cultural sanctification and manners catch up
      with it.
      >
      > The printing press was invented, and was gloriously used by God to
      spread the availability of the Scriptures. But the same printing
      press made scurrilous broadsheets and pamphlets possible, and those
      applications were not slow in coming. The telephone was invented,
      and made many wonderful things possible, but gossip and time-wasting
      chatter were right there as well.
      >
      > Now we are dealing with the internet and email, and all the
      warnings that St. James gave us have to be taken to heart in new
      ways. We are dealing with the electronic tongue, and we have not yet
      learned how to deal with the electronic tongue. To the extent that
      pastors talk about the internet in sermons at all, it tends toward
      concerns about pornography. This is far from being an unreasonable
      concern, because porn is a big problem. But I think Scripture also
      encourages us to address the sins that are commonly and routinely
      committed by people in front of other Christians. Christians who use
      porn almost always sneak off to do it alone, in secret. But
      disgraceful web sites are set up for the whole world to see, and it
      is not recognized for what it is. We are so much in the grip of
      radical individualism that as long as someone is advancing something
      that they call their perspective or "point of view," we think in
      First Amendment terms rather than in Second Greatest Commandment
      terms. But points of view are not self-authenticating. They are not
      autonomous. And to apply Dilbert to this, "When did ignorance become
      a point of view?"
      >
      > With this in mind, let me just note a few sins of the electronic
      tongue. They are all particular applications of principles found in
      Scripture, revealed to us long before the day of ones and zeros. But
      we have to remember that we are creatures of habit in our virtues
      and vices, and this means that people will often do in a new setting
      something they would never dream of doing in an older, more familiar
      setting. This is because the older, more familiar setting was
      governed by a set of manners that were seeking (sometimes rightly,
      sometimes wrongly) to govern that behavior. But when the setting
      changes, all bets are off. In a previous era, pietistic churches
      often had rules against going to the movies in a theater, which used
      to be the only place you could see them. But with the advent of
      television, the VCR, and then the DVD, members of such churches can
      watch movies without a twinge in their conscience. Men who would
      never dream of buying a pornographic magazine will visit
      pornographic web sites. And bringing us to the point of this post,
      people will type things at a keyboard that they would never dream of
      saying.
      >
      > So here are just a few things to watch for:
      >
      > Trial by Internet: we have been covering the principles of justice
      in this series. Those principles are to be applied by individual
      Christians who are faithful members of churches, sessions of elders,
      faithful presbyteries, and councils of Christians. They are all to
      be dealt with in an incarnational way, settled and applied by people
      who live with one another, and love one another in three-dimensional
      ways. When someone's reputation is being dragged through the mud, we
      have to remember to give an attack web site the same authority (i.e.
      none) that we would give a xeroxed nasty-gram tacked to a telephone
      pole. Scurrilous sites are easy to identify, and Scripture requires
      us to ignore them completely. Not only should we ignore them
      completely, we should ignore those who do not distance themselves
      from everyone engaged in that kind of thing.
      >
      > Other sites are not scurrilous, and make a great show of putting
      on a dignified air, but they are still trying to try the case in the
      wrong place. Jesus did not say, "And if your brother does not hear
      you, I hear blogspots are fairly inexpensive."
      >
      > Speed Is Not Synonymous With Truth: we used to equate a "fast
      talker" with a greater likelihood of falsehood. This suspicion ought
      to remain with us. What the Internet does is enable us to circulate
      our ignorance around the globe at a high rate of speed. The fact
      that I can click a button, and people in Australia can read what I
      wrote a few seconds later, does not make it right. Jesus said of the
      Pharisees that they made a great business of crossing over land and
      sea to make a convert, and when they made one, he became twice as
      much a son of hell as themselves. You sell what's on the shelves.
      You export what you produce. You say what's in your heart. Now if
      what you have is a pack of lies, or poorly-researched slanders, or
      plain old-fashioned folly, then that is what goes up when you click
      the button
      >
      > The Internet Is Not Private Space: many who sit behind keyboards
      make the same mistake made by a toddler who hides by covering his
      eyes. If he can't see others, they must not be able to see him.
      There is truly a weird phenomenon going on here. A few years ago, a
      couple who worked for an establishment made some home-made
      pornographic material and posted on the web. Their employer found
      out about it and dismissed them. They, in turn, sued the employer
      for invading their privacy. Now think about this for a minute.
      Another illustration of this kind of a strange mind-bend is the
      phenomenon of what should be called the Narcissistic Blog. A private
      diary is a private diary, and people can have private pity parties
      in them. But a narcissistic blog is not private, and cannot by any
      stretch of the imagination be considered private. But on more than
      one occasion I have known of young people surprised that their
      elders knew about something. "How did you know that?" "Well, you
      posted it on the world wide web." I have sometimes thought (not
      quite in jest) that larger churches ought to bring an elder on staff
      whose sole job would be to monitor the blogs of the young people in
      the church. As Yogi Berra once said, "You can observe a lot by just
      watching."
      >
      > Courage Is Personal: when you have something against your brother,
      or your brother has something against you, buy him a beer and talk
      to him about it. Commit yourself to it over time. Do everything you
      can to deal with problems the way a courageous man would, if he were
      here.
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Crazy Calvinist
      > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:17 AM
      > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?
      >
      >
      > Of an irate and indignant individual?  Someone (the person
      involved in the dispute) posted the link on my website last night. 
      And have heard bad things about the PCA at times in this group, and
      this link (which claimes the PCA is a cult) was kind of confusing.
      Though it may be meaning just the one specific church belonging to
      the PCA, but was kind of hard to follow.
      >
      > Presby.com
      >
      > ~Deejay
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Fred blahous
      G day Gerry, 1. New Saint Andrews own elders discovered illegal gambling and opium where going on at The Lounge and instead of handing the info over to the
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 19, 2006
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        G'day Gerry,

        1. New Saint Andrews own elders discovered illegal gambling and
        opium where going on at "The Lounge" and instead of handing the info
        over to the police, Doug Wilson just paid off the casino out of
        church funds and "censored" those involved by excluding them from
        membership for one year. The Ringleader turned out to be one of the
        elder's own sons. All the info is available at dougsplotch.com

        2. Sorry for mis-speaking. Greg Price is the pastor. I am not sure
        what ministerial status (if any), that Reg Barrows holds. I got them
        confused.

        All the best,
        Fred.

        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
        <raging.calvinist@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hey Fred,
        >
        > Fred blahous wrote:
        >
        > > His atrocious defense of Chattel slavery, unconfessional embrace
        of
        > > Auburn Avenue, idolatrous blending of dark and light, covering
        up of
        > > dope dealing, and illegal casinos, combined with constant
        > > villification of everyone who disagrees with him (including
        Pastor
        > > Reg Barrow) has caused much dishonor to Christ's name in Moscow,
        > > Idaho.
        >
        > Two quick questions,
        >
        > 1. Illegal casinos and dope dealing? What's that about?
        >
        > 2. Reg Barrow is a pastor? I know I'm behind on things, but I
        wasn't
        > aware of this one at all.
        >
        > gmw.
        >
      • Cheryl Grenon
        Dear Fred, Dougsplotch.com is precisely the sort of thing that Douglas Wilson was talking about in the article I posted. I suggest you do a search on gambling
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 19, 2006
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          Dear Fred,
           
          Dougsplotch.com is precisely the sort of thing that Douglas Wilson was talking about in the article I posted.  I suggest you do a search on gambling on  Mr. Wilson's blog and see if there just might be another side to this story.
           
          Sincerely,
          Cheryl Grenon
           
           
            ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:57 AM
          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?

          G'day Gerry,

          1. New Saint Andrews own elders discovered illegal gambling and
          opium where going on at "The Lounge" and instead of handing the info
          over to the police, Doug Wilson just paid off the casino out of
          church funds and "censored" those involved by excluding them from
          membership for one year. The Ringleader turned out to be one of the
          elder's own sons. All the info is available at dougsplotch.com

          2. Sorry for mis-speaking. Greg Price is the pastor. I am not sure
          what ministerial status (if any), that Reg Barrows holds. I got them
          confused.

          All the best,
          Fred.

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
          <raging.calvinist@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hey Fred,
          >
          > Fred blahous wrote:
          >
          > > His atrocious defense of Chattel slavery, unconfessional embrace
          of
          > > Auburn Avenue, idolatrous blending of dark and light,
          covering
          up of
          > > dope dealing, and illegal casinos, combined with
          constant
          > > villification of everyone who disagrees with him
          (including
          Pastor
          > > Reg Barrow) has caused much dishonor to
          Christ's name in Moscow,
          > > Idaho.
          >
          > Two quick
          questions,
          >
          > 1.  Illegal casinos and dope dealing? 
          What's that about?
          >
          > 2.  Reg Barrow is a pastor?  I
          know I'm behind on things, but I
          wasn't
          > aware of this one at
          all.
          >
          > gmw.
          >





        • Glenn Ferrell
          Fred: What Scripture would you appeal to condemn chattel slavery ? Not that I am anxious to revive the practice. I just have problems calling something sin
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 19, 2006
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            Fred:
             
            What Scripture would you appeal to condemn "chattel slavery"?
             
            Not that I am anxious to revive the practice.  I just have problems calling something sin that God's Word does not make sin.
             
            Though I might disagree with Doug Wilson on several points, this is not one I would list.
             
            Glenn Ferrell
            Boise, Idaho
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:22 AM
            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?


            His atrocious defense of Chattel slavery,
          • Fred blahous
            G day Glenn. A sermon on Covenantor.org list Exodus 21:16 and I Timothy 1:7 against the practise of chattel. The slavery regulations in the bible are such that
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 20, 2006
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              G'day Glenn.

              A sermon on Covenantor.org list Exodus 21:16 and I Timothy 1:7
              against the practise of chattel. The slavery regulations in the
              bible are such that a bankrupt person would learn fiscal
              responsibility by laboring for seven years in his maister's house
              and then be set free. If he wanted to remain as a servant, he would
              be payed a wage after this time, and be branded with jewellery to
              signify spending the rest of his life in his master's house. This
              seems more like the role of a chamber maid or butler than the
              outright ownership of kidnap victims and their descendents as
              practised in ancient Rome and the Southron lands. The "rights"
              conferred to master's over the chastity of slaves is also in plain
              violation of the seventh commandment, as it revives concubinage and
              polygamy, which, although lawful in the OT, are abolished in the NT.

              You can check out McLeod's sermon at
              www.covenantor.org/McLeod.negro.htm.

              Hope that helps.

              All the best,
              Fred.

              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Ferrell"
              <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
              >
              > Fred:
              >
              > What Scripture would you appeal to condemn "chattel slavery"?
              >
              > Not that I am anxious to revive the practice. I just have
              problems calling something sin that God's Word does not make sin.
              >
              > Though I might disagree with Doug Wilson on several points, this
              is not one I would list.
              >
              > Glenn Ferrell
              > Boise, Idaho
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Fred blahous<mailto:fritzbau@...>
              > To:
              covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com<mailto:covenantedreformatio
              nclub@yahoogroups.com>
              > Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:22 AM
              > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?
              >
              >
              >
              > His atrocious defense of Chattel slavery,
              >
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