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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?

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  • Cheryl Grenon
    I don t know about this guy, but here is a blog post from Douglas Wilson that I posted and linked to on my blog concerning the tendency of people to shoot
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 14, 2006
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      I don't know about this guy, but here is a blog post from Douglas Wilson that I posted and linked to on my blog concerning the tendency of people to shoot their mouth off on the internet...  Could be that his words apply here.
       
       
      From Douglas Wilson's blog

      Trial By Internet Topic: A Justice Primer

      The Bible tells us that the man who is able to tame the tongue is able to deal with anything. The tongue is a restless evil, he says, full of poison. It sets the world on fire, and is set on fire by hell. As long as sin has been in the world, this has been true, but whenever new means of communication are developed, sin eagerly rushes in often before cultural sanctification and manners catch up with it.

      The printing press was invented, and was gloriously used by God to spread the availability of the Scriptures. But the same printing press made scurrilous broadsheets and pamphlets possible, and those applications were not slow in coming. The telephone was invented, and made many wonderful things possible, but gossip and time-wasting chatter were right there as well.

      Now we are dealing with the internet and email, and all the warnings that St. James gave us have to be taken to heart in new ways. We are dealing with the electronic tongue, and we have not yet learned how to deal with the electronic tongue. To the extent that pastors talk about the internet in sermons at all, it tends toward concerns about pornography. This is far from being an unreasonable concern, because porn is a big problem. But I think Scripture also encourages us to address the sins that are commonly and routinely committed by people in front of other Christians. Christians who use porn almost always sneak off to do it alone, in secret. But disgraceful web sites are set up for the whole world to see, and it is not recognized for what it is. We are so much in the grip of radical individualism that as long as someone is advancing something that they call their perspective or "point of view," we think in First Amendment terms rather than in Second Greatest Commandment terms. But points of view are not self-authenticating. They are not autonomous. And to apply Dilbert to this, "When did ignorance become a point of view?"

      With this in mind, let me just note a few sins of the electronic tongue. They are all particular applications of principles found in Scripture, revealed to us long before the day of ones and zeros. But we have to remember that we are creatures of habit in our virtues and vices, and this means that people will often do in a new setting something they would never dream of doing in an older, more familiar setting. This is because the older, more familiar setting was governed by a set of manners that were seeking (sometimes rightly, sometimes wrongly) to govern that behavior. But when the setting changes, all bets are off. In a previous era, pietistic churches often had rules against going to the movies in a theater, which used to be the only place you could see them. But with the advent of television, the VCR, and then the DVD, members of such churches can watch movies without a twinge in their conscience. Men who would never dream of buying a pornographic magazine will visit pornographic web sites. And bringing us to the point of this post, people will type things at a keyboard that they would never dream of saying.

      So here are just a few things to watch for:

      Trial by Internet: we have been covering the principles of justice in this series. Those principles are to be applied by individual Christians who are faithful members of churches, sessions of elders, faithful presbyteries, and councils of Christians. They are all to be dealt with in an incarnational way, settled and applied by people who live with one another, and love one another in three-dimensional ways. When someone's reputation is being dragged through the mud, we have to remember to give an attack web site the same authority (i.e. none) that we would give a xeroxed nasty-gram tacked to a telephone pole. Scurrilous sites are easy to identify, and Scripture requires us to ignore them completely. Not only should we ignore them completely, we should ignore those who do not distance themselves from everyone engaged in that kind of thing.

      Other sites are not scurrilous, and make a great show of putting on a dignified air, but they are still trying to try the case in the wrong place. Jesus did not say, "And if your brother does not hear you, I hear blogspots are fairly inexpensive."

      Speed Is Not Synonymous With Truth: we used to equate a "fast talker" with a greater likelihood of falsehood. This suspicion ought to remain with us. What the Internet does is enable us to circulate our ignorance around the globe at a high rate of speed. The fact that I can click a button, and people in Australia can read what I wrote a few seconds later, does not make it right. Jesus said of the Pharisees that they made a great business of crossing over land and sea to make a convert, and when they made one, he became twice as much a son of hell as themselves. You sell what's on the shelves. You export what you produce. You say what's in your heart. Now if what you have is a pack of lies, or poorly-researched slanders, or plain old-fashioned folly, then that is what goes up when you click the button

      The Internet Is Not Private Space: many who sit behind keyboards make the same mistake made by a toddler who hides by covering his eyes. If he can't see others, they must not be able to see him. There is truly a weird phenomenon going on here. A few years ago, a couple who worked for an establishment made some home-made pornographic material and posted on the web. Their employer found out about it and dismissed them. They, in turn, sued the employer for invading their privacy. Now think about this for a minute. Another illustration of this kind of a strange mind-bend is the phenomenon of what should be called the Narcissistic Blog. A private diary is a private diary, and people can have private pity parties in them. But a narcissistic blog is not private, and cannot by any stretch of the imagination be considered private. But on more than one occasion I have known of young people surprised that their elders knew about something. "How did you know that?" "Well, you posted it on the world wide web." I have sometimes thought (not quite in jest) that larger churches ought to bring an elder on staff whose sole job would be to monitor the blogs of the young people in the church. As Yogi Berra once said, "You can observe a lot by just watching."

      Courage Is Personal: when you have something against your brother, or your brother has something against you, buy him a beer and talk to him about it. Commit yourself to it over time. Do everything you can to deal with problems the way a courageous man would, if he were here.

       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:17 AM
      Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?

      Of an irate and indignant individual?  Someone (the person involved in the dispute) posted the link on my website last night.  And have heard bad things about the PCA at times in this group, and this link (which claimes the PCA is a cult) was kind of confusing. Though it may be meaning just the one specific church belonging to the PCA, but was kind of hard to follow.

      Presby.com

      ~Deejay

    • Fred blahous
      G day Cheryl, I would be weary of anything coming from cult-leader Doug Wilson. He wrote this stuff to try to justify a defrocked minister deposed by the
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 19, 2006
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        G'day Cheryl,

        I would be weary of anything coming from cult-leader Doug Wilson. He
        wrote this stuff to try to justify a defrocked minister deposed by
        the RPC-GA, and is now trying to get him into the schismatic CRE,
        which he founded to blend Independents, Anabaptists, and Episcopals
        with so-called Presbyterians.

        His atrocious defense of Chattel slavery, unconfessional embrace of
        Auburn Avenue, idolatrous blending of dark and light, covering up of
        dope dealing, and illegal casinos, combined with constant
        villification of everyone who disagrees with him (including Pastor
        Reg Barrow) has caused much dishonor to Christ's name in Moscow,
        Idaho.

        All the best,
        Fred.

        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Cheryl Grenon"
        <cheryl@...> wrote:
        >
        > I don't know about this guy, but here is a blog post from Douglas
        Wilson that I posted and linked to on my blog concerning the
        tendency of people to shoot their mouth off on the internet...
        Could be that his words apply here.
        >
        >
        > From Douglas Wilson's blog
        >
        > Trial By Internet Topic: A Justice Primer
        >
        > The Bible tells us that the man who is able to tame the tongue is
        able to deal with anything. The tongue is a restless evil, he says,
        full of poison. It sets the world on fire, and is set on fire by
        hell. As long as sin has been in the world, this has been true, but
        whenever new means of communication are developed, sin eagerly
        rushes in often before cultural sanctification and manners catch up
        with it.
        >
        > The printing press was invented, and was gloriously used by God to
        spread the availability of the Scriptures. But the same printing
        press made scurrilous broadsheets and pamphlets possible, and those
        applications were not slow in coming. The telephone was invented,
        and made many wonderful things possible, but gossip and time-wasting
        chatter were right there as well.
        >
        > Now we are dealing with the internet and email, and all the
        warnings that St. James gave us have to be taken to heart in new
        ways. We are dealing with the electronic tongue, and we have not yet
        learned how to deal with the electronic tongue. To the extent that
        pastors talk about the internet in sermons at all, it tends toward
        concerns about pornography. This is far from being an unreasonable
        concern, because porn is a big problem. But I think Scripture also
        encourages us to address the sins that are commonly and routinely
        committed by people in front of other Christians. Christians who use
        porn almost always sneak off to do it alone, in secret. But
        disgraceful web sites are set up for the whole world to see, and it
        is not recognized for what it is. We are so much in the grip of
        radical individualism that as long as someone is advancing something
        that they call their perspective or "point of view," we think in
        First Amendment terms rather than in Second Greatest Commandment
        terms. But points of view are not self-authenticating. They are not
        autonomous. And to apply Dilbert to this, "When did ignorance become
        a point of view?"
        >
        > With this in mind, let me just note a few sins of the electronic
        tongue. They are all particular applications of principles found in
        Scripture, revealed to us long before the day of ones and zeros. But
        we have to remember that we are creatures of habit in our virtues
        and vices, and this means that people will often do in a new setting
        something they would never dream of doing in an older, more familiar
        setting. This is because the older, more familiar setting was
        governed by a set of manners that were seeking (sometimes rightly,
        sometimes wrongly) to govern that behavior. But when the setting
        changes, all bets are off. In a previous era, pietistic churches
        often had rules against going to the movies in a theater, which used
        to be the only place you could see them. But with the advent of
        television, the VCR, and then the DVD, members of such churches can
        watch movies without a twinge in their conscience. Men who would
        never dream of buying a pornographic magazine will visit
        pornographic web sites. And bringing us to the point of this post,
        people will type things at a keyboard that they would never dream of
        saying.
        >
        > So here are just a few things to watch for:
        >
        > Trial by Internet: we have been covering the principles of justice
        in this series. Those principles are to be applied by individual
        Christians who are faithful members of churches, sessions of elders,
        faithful presbyteries, and councils of Christians. They are all to
        be dealt with in an incarnational way, settled and applied by people
        who live with one another, and love one another in three-dimensional
        ways. When someone's reputation is being dragged through the mud, we
        have to remember to give an attack web site the same authority (i.e.
        none) that we would give a xeroxed nasty-gram tacked to a telephone
        pole. Scurrilous sites are easy to identify, and Scripture requires
        us to ignore them completely. Not only should we ignore them
        completely, we should ignore those who do not distance themselves
        from everyone engaged in that kind of thing.
        >
        > Other sites are not scurrilous, and make a great show of putting
        on a dignified air, but they are still trying to try the case in the
        wrong place. Jesus did not say, "And if your brother does not hear
        you, I hear blogspots are fairly inexpensive."
        >
        > Speed Is Not Synonymous With Truth: we used to equate a "fast
        talker" with a greater likelihood of falsehood. This suspicion ought
        to remain with us. What the Internet does is enable us to circulate
        our ignorance around the globe at a high rate of speed. The fact
        that I can click a button, and people in Australia can read what I
        wrote a few seconds later, does not make it right. Jesus said of the
        Pharisees that they made a great business of crossing over land and
        sea to make a convert, and when they made one, he became twice as
        much a son of hell as themselves. You sell what's on the shelves.
        You export what you produce. You say what's in your heart. Now if
        what you have is a pack of lies, or poorly-researched slanders, or
        plain old-fashioned folly, then that is what goes up when you click
        the button
        >
        > The Internet Is Not Private Space: many who sit behind keyboards
        make the same mistake made by a toddler who hides by covering his
        eyes. If he can't see others, they must not be able to see him.
        There is truly a weird phenomenon going on here. A few years ago, a
        couple who worked for an establishment made some home-made
        pornographic material and posted on the web. Their employer found
        out about it and dismissed them. They, in turn, sued the employer
        for invading their privacy. Now think about this for a minute.
        Another illustration of this kind of a strange mind-bend is the
        phenomenon of what should be called the Narcissistic Blog. A private
        diary is a private diary, and people can have private pity parties
        in them. But a narcissistic blog is not private, and cannot by any
        stretch of the imagination be considered private. But on more than
        one occasion I have known of young people surprised that their
        elders knew about something. "How did you know that?" "Well, you
        posted it on the world wide web." I have sometimes thought (not
        quite in jest) that larger churches ought to bring an elder on staff
        whose sole job would be to monitor the blogs of the young people in
        the church. As Yogi Berra once said, "You can observe a lot by just
        watching."
        >
        > Courage Is Personal: when you have something against your brother,
        or your brother has something against you, buy him a beer and talk
        to him about it. Commit yourself to it over time. Do everything you
        can to deal with problems the way a courageous man would, if he were
        here.
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: Crazy Calvinist
        > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
        > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:17 AM
        > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?
        >
        >
        > Of an irate and indignant individual? Someone (the person
        involved in the dispute) posted the link on my website last night.
        And have heard bad things about the PCA at times in this group, and
        this link (which claimes the PCA is a cult) was kind of confusing.
        Though it may be meaning just the one specific church belonging to
        the PCA, but was kind of hard to follow.
        >
        > Presby.com
        >
        > ~Deejay
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > SPONSORED LINKS True religion Theology
        >
        >
        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
        -------------
        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
        >
        > a.. Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the web.
        >
        > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
        > -------------------------------------------------------------------
        -------------
        >
      • gmw
        Hey Fred, ... Two quick questions, 1. Illegal casinos and dope dealing? What s that about? 2. Reg Barrow is a pastor? I know I m behind on things, but I
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 19, 2006
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          Hey Fred,

          Fred blahous wrote:

          > His atrocious defense of Chattel slavery, unconfessional embrace of
          > Auburn Avenue, idolatrous blending of dark and light, covering up of
          > dope dealing, and illegal casinos, combined with constant
          > villification of everyone who disagrees with him (including Pastor
          > Reg Barrow) has caused much dishonor to Christ's name in Moscow,
          > Idaho.

          Two quick questions,

          1. Illegal casinos and dope dealing? What's that about?

          2. Reg Barrow is a pastor? I know I'm behind on things, but I wasn't
          aware of this one at all.

          gmw.
        • Cheryl Grenon
          Dear Fred, I have been reading Douglas Wilson s blog for some time now. If he is defending a de-frocked minister, then I know nothing of that. Even if he were
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 19, 2006
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            Dear Fred,
             
            I have been reading Douglas Wilson's blog for some time now. If he is defending a de-frocked minister, then I know nothing of that.  Even if he were doing this, the principles in the article are sound, imho.
             
            I think we need to be careful to read source material as opposed to people's opinions of what is going on.  Otherwise it is too easy to make mistakes about what people actually said or what they actually are.  Reg Barrow is a case in point.  He is neither a minister nor a ruling elder. 
             
            Yours and His,
            Cheryl
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:22 AM
            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?

            G'day Cheryl,

            I would be weary of anything coming from cult-leader Doug Wilson. He
            wrote this stuff to try to justify a defrocked minister deposed by
            the RPC-GA, and is now trying to get him into the schismatic CRE,
            which he founded to blend Independents, Anabaptists, and Episcopals
            with so-called Presbyterians.

            His atrocious defense of Chattel slavery, unconfessional embrace of
            Auburn Avenue, idolatrous blending of dark and light, covering up of
            dope dealing, and illegal casinos, combined with constant
            villification of everyone who disagrees with him (including Pastor
            Reg Barrow) has caused much dishonor to Christ's name in Moscow,
            Idaho.

            All the best,
            Fred.

            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Cheryl Grenon"
            <cheryl@...> wrote:
            >
            > I don't know about this guy, but here is a blog post from Douglas
            Wilson that I posted and linked to on my blog concerning the
            tendency of people to shoot their mouth off on the internet... 
            Could be that his words apply here.
            >
            >
            > From Douglas Wilson's blog
            >
            > Trial By Internet Topic: A Justice Primer
            >
            > The Bible tells us that the man who is able to tame the tongue is
            able to deal with anything. The tongue is a restless evil, he says,
            full of poison. It sets the world on fire, and is set on fire by
            hell. As long as sin has been in the world, this has been true, but
            whenever new means of communication are developed, sin eagerly
            rushes in often before cultural sanctification and manners catch up
            with it.
            >
            > The printing press was invented, and was gloriously used by God to
            spread the availability of the Scriptures. But the same printing
            press made scurrilous broadsheets and pamphlets possible, and those
            applications were not slow in coming. The telephone was invented,
            and made many wonderful things possible, but gossip and time-wasting
            chatter were right there as well.
            >
            > Now we are dealing with the internet and email, and all the
            warnings that St. James gave us have to be taken to heart in new
            ways. We are dealing with the electronic tongue, and we have not yet
            learned how to deal with the electronic tongue. To the extent that
            pastors talk about the internet in sermons at all, it tends toward
            concerns about pornography. This is far from being an unreasonable
            concern, because porn is a big problem. But I think Scripture also
            encourages us to address the sins that are commonly and routinely
            committed by people in front of other Christians. Christians who use
            porn almost always sneak off to do it alone, in secret. But
            disgraceful web sites are set up for the whole world to see, and it
            is not recognized for what it is. We are so much in the grip of
            radical individualism that as long as someone is advancing something
            that they call their perspective or "point of view," we think in
            First Amendment terms rather than in Second Greatest Commandment
            terms. But points of view are not self-authenticating. They are not
            autonomous. And to apply Dilbert to this, "When did ignorance become
            a point of view?"
            >
            > With this in mind, let me just note a few sins of the electronic
            tongue. They are all particular applications of principles found in
            Scripture, revealed to us long before the day of ones and zeros. But
            we have to remember that we are creatures of habit in our virtues
            and vices, and this means that people will often do in a new setting
            something they would never dream of doing in an older, more familiar
            setting. This is because the older, more familiar setting was
            governed by a set of manners that were seeking (sometimes rightly,
            sometimes wrongly) to govern that behavior. But when the setting
            changes, all bets are off. In a previous era, pietistic churches
            often had rules against going to the movies in a theater, which used
            to be the only place you could see them. But with the advent of
            television, the VCR, and then the DVD, members of such churches can
            watch movies without a twinge in their conscience. Men who would
            never dream of buying a pornographic magazine will visit
            pornographic web sites. And bringing us to the point of this post,
            people will type things at a keyboard that they would never dream of
            saying.
            >
            > So here are just a few things to watch for:
            >
            > Trial by Internet: we have been covering the principles of justice
            in this series. Those principles are to be applied by individual
            Christians who are faithful members of churches, sessions of elders,
            faithful presbyteries, and councils of Christians. They are all to
            be dealt with in an incarnational way, settled and applied by people
            who live with one another, and love one another in three-dimensional
            ways. When someone's reputation is being dragged through the mud, we
            have to remember to give an attack web site the same authority (i.e.
            none) that we would give a xeroxed nasty-gram tacked to a telephone
            pole. Scurrilous sites are easy to identify, and Scripture requires
            us to ignore them completely. Not only should we ignore them
            completely, we should ignore those who do not distance themselves
            from everyone engaged in that kind of thing.
            >
            > Other sites are not scurrilous, and make a great show of putting
            on a dignified air, but they are still trying to try the case in the
            wrong place. Jesus did not say, "And if your brother does not hear
            you, I hear blogspots are fairly inexpensive."
            >
            > Speed Is Not Synonymous With Truth: we used to equate a "fast
            talker" with a greater likelihood of falsehood. This suspicion ought
            to remain with us. What the Internet does is enable us to circulate
            our ignorance around the globe at a high rate of speed. The fact
            that I can click a button, and people in Australia can read what I
            wrote a few seconds later, does not make it right. Jesus said of the
            Pharisees that they made a great business of crossing over land and
            sea to make a convert, and when they made one, he became twice as
            much a son of hell as themselves. You sell what's on the shelves.
            You export what you produce. You say what's in your heart. Now if
            what you have is a pack of lies, or poorly-researched slanders, or
            plain old-fashioned folly, then that is what goes up when you click
            the button
            >
            > The Internet Is Not Private Space: many who sit behind keyboards
            make the same mistake made by a toddler who hides by covering his
            eyes. If he can't see others, they must not be able to see him.
            There is truly a weird phenomenon going on here. A few years ago, a
            couple who worked for an establishment made some home-made
            pornographic material and posted on the web. Their employer found
            out about it and dismissed them. They, in turn, sued the employer
            for invading their privacy. Now think about this for a minute.
            Another illustration of this kind of a strange mind-bend is the
            phenomenon of what should be called the Narcissistic Blog. A private
            diary is a private diary, and people can have private pity parties
            in them. But a narcissistic blog is not private, and cannot by any
            stretch of the imagination be considered private. But on more than
            one occasion I have known of young people surprised that their
            elders knew about something. "How did you know that?" "Well, you
            posted it on the world wide web." I have sometimes thought (not
            quite in jest) that larger churches ought to bring an elder on staff
            whose sole job would be to monitor the blogs of the young people in
            the church. As Yogi Berra once said, "You can observe a lot by just
            watching."
            >
            > Courage Is Personal: when you have something against your brother,
            or your brother has something against you, buy him a beer and talk
            to him about it. Commit yourself to it over time. Do everything you
            can to deal with problems the way a courageous man would, if he were
            here.
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: Crazy Calvinist
            > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tuesday, March 14, 2006 4:17 AM
            > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?
            >
            >
            > Of an irate and indignant individual?  Someone (the person
            involved in the dispute) posted the link on my website last night. 
            And have heard bad things about the PCA at times in this group, and
            this link (which claimes the PCA is a cult) was kind of confusing.
            Though it may be meaning just the one specific church belonging to
            the PCA, but was kind of hard to follow.
            >
            > Presby.com
            >
            > ~Deejay
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > SPONSORED LINKS True religion  Theology 
            >
            >
            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
            -------------
            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >
            >   a..  Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the web.
            >    
            >   b..  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            >    covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >    
            >   c..  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
            -------------
            >




          • Fred blahous
            G day Gerry, 1. New Saint Andrews own elders discovered illegal gambling and opium where going on at The Lounge and instead of handing the info over to the
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 19, 2006
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              G'day Gerry,

              1. New Saint Andrews own elders discovered illegal gambling and
              opium where going on at "The Lounge" and instead of handing the info
              over to the police, Doug Wilson just paid off the casino out of
              church funds and "censored" those involved by excluding them from
              membership for one year. The Ringleader turned out to be one of the
              elder's own sons. All the info is available at dougsplotch.com

              2. Sorry for mis-speaking. Greg Price is the pastor. I am not sure
              what ministerial status (if any), that Reg Barrows holds. I got them
              confused.

              All the best,
              Fred.

              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
              <raging.calvinist@...> wrote:
              >
              > Hey Fred,
              >
              > Fred blahous wrote:
              >
              > > His atrocious defense of Chattel slavery, unconfessional embrace
              of
              > > Auburn Avenue, idolatrous blending of dark and light, covering
              up of
              > > dope dealing, and illegal casinos, combined with constant
              > > villification of everyone who disagrees with him (including
              Pastor
              > > Reg Barrow) has caused much dishonor to Christ's name in Moscow,
              > > Idaho.
              >
              > Two quick questions,
              >
              > 1. Illegal casinos and dope dealing? What's that about?
              >
              > 2. Reg Barrow is a pastor? I know I'm behind on things, but I
              wasn't
              > aware of this one at all.
              >
              > gmw.
              >
            • Cheryl Grenon
              Dear Fred, Dougsplotch.com is precisely the sort of thing that Douglas Wilson was talking about in the article I posted. I suggest you do a search on gambling
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 19, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Dear Fred,
                 
                Dougsplotch.com is precisely the sort of thing that Douglas Wilson was talking about in the article I posted.  I suggest you do a search on gambling on  Mr. Wilson's blog and see if there just might be another side to this story.
                 
                Sincerely,
                Cheryl Grenon
                 
                 
                  ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 9:57 AM
                Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?

                G'day Gerry,

                1. New Saint Andrews own elders discovered illegal gambling and
                opium where going on at "The Lounge" and instead of handing the info
                over to the police, Doug Wilson just paid off the casino out of
                church funds and "censored" those involved by excluding them from
                membership for one year. The Ringleader turned out to be one of the
                elder's own sons. All the info is available at dougsplotch.com

                2. Sorry for mis-speaking. Greg Price is the pastor. I am not sure
                what ministerial status (if any), that Reg Barrows holds. I got them
                confused.

                All the best,
                Fred.

                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                <raging.calvinist@...> wrote:
                >
                > Hey Fred,
                >
                > Fred blahous wrote:
                >
                > > His atrocious defense of Chattel slavery, unconfessional embrace
                of
                > > Auburn Avenue, idolatrous blending of dark and light,
                covering
                up of
                > > dope dealing, and illegal casinos, combined with
                constant
                > > villification of everyone who disagrees with him
                (including
                Pastor
                > > Reg Barrow) has caused much dishonor to
                Christ's name in Moscow,
                > > Idaho.
                >
                > Two quick
                questions,
                >
                > 1.  Illegal casinos and dope dealing? 
                What's that about?
                >
                > 2.  Reg Barrow is a pastor?  I
                know I'm behind on things, but I
                wasn't
                > aware of this one at
                all.
                >
                > gmw.
                >





              • Glenn Ferrell
                Fred: What Scripture would you appeal to condemn chattel slavery ? Not that I am anxious to revive the practice. I just have problems calling something sin
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 19, 2006
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                  Fred:
                   
                  What Scripture would you appeal to condemn "chattel slavery"?
                   
                  Not that I am anxious to revive the practice.  I just have problems calling something sin that God's Word does not make sin.
                   
                  Though I might disagree with Doug Wilson on several points, this is not one I would list.
                   
                  Glenn Ferrell
                  Boise, Idaho
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:22 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?


                  His atrocious defense of Chattel slavery,
                • Fred blahous
                  G day Glenn. A sermon on Covenantor.org list Exodus 21:16 and I Timothy 1:7 against the practise of chattel. The slavery regulations in the bible are such that
                  Message 8 of 8 , Mar 20, 2006
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                    G'day Glenn.

                    A sermon on Covenantor.org list Exodus 21:16 and I Timothy 1:7
                    against the practise of chattel. The slavery regulations in the
                    bible are such that a bankrupt person would learn fiscal
                    responsibility by laboring for seven years in his maister's house
                    and then be set free. If he wanted to remain as a servant, he would
                    be payed a wage after this time, and be branded with jewellery to
                    signify spending the rest of his life in his master's house. This
                    seems more like the role of a chamber maid or butler than the
                    outright ownership of kidnap victims and their descendents as
                    practised in ancient Rome and the Southron lands. The "rights"
                    conferred to master's over the chastity of slaves is also in plain
                    violation of the seventh commandment, as it revives concubinage and
                    polygamy, which, although lawful in the OT, are abolished in the NT.

                    You can check out McLeod's sermon at
                    www.covenantor.org/McLeod.negro.htm.

                    Hope that helps.

                    All the best,
                    Fred.

                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Ferrell"
                    <jglennferrell@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Fred:
                    >
                    > What Scripture would you appeal to condemn "chattel slavery"?
                    >
                    > Not that I am anxious to revive the practice. I just have
                    problems calling something sin that God's Word does not make sin.
                    >
                    > Though I might disagree with Doug Wilson on several points, this
                    is not one I would list.
                    >
                    > Glenn Ferrell
                    > Boise, Idaho
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Fred blahous<mailto:fritzbau@...>
                    > To:
                    covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com<mailto:covenantedreformatio
                    nclub@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Sunday, March 19, 2006 10:22 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Is This just sour grapes?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > His atrocious defense of Chattel slavery,
                    >
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