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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Need Homosexuality Resources for a friend

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  • Chad W
    What I meant by the be alone all their life part is some exgays swear they never developed those feelings for women. So if they can t be with a man then they
    Message 1 of 9 , Feb 12, 2006
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      What I meant by the be alone all their life part is some exgays swear they never developed those feelings for women.  So if they can't be with a man then they will be alone.



      On 2/12/06, Nikolai <psalmos@...> wrote:
      Chad W wrote:
      > If a person is prone that way, are we to think God meant
      > for them to be alone all their lives?

      I'm not sure why such a conclusion should be made. What we are to think,
      to start with, is what God thinks of homosexuality. If He thinks it is
      sin, we're to think likewise. From this thought, it doesn't follow
      anyone should remain alone just as it doesn't follow one shouldn't shop
      because stealing is a sin. I just fail to see how one follows from the
      other. Per Paul's instructions (1 Cor 7:9), your friend should get
      married if he can't contain his sexual desires or stay alone if he can.
      The options are not, "if I lust after men, I'll stay alone because God
      forbids homosexual marriages."

      > Or did He purposed it to reveal
      > His glory when they are restored to pure sexuality?


      I think pondering into God's purposes in matters like these is as
      effective as finding so called "God's will for my life."

      Once again, the only advice there's for someone like your friend is to
      repent of this sin and turn back to the Lord who's able and willing to
      forgive a repentant sinner. And of course the last thing I would
      personally suggest in a situation like this is to turn to Christian
      counsellors who, in their majority, are Freud's disciples behind
      Christian window dressing (hence the prevailing belief, including among
      Christians, that homosexuals can't do anything but lust after their own
      sex. In that case, I suppose we should all agree that thieves can't stop
      stealing.)

      Nikolai
      EPC of Australia
      Brisbane


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    • Nikolai
      ... I m not sure I can believe their words. Their sexual desires, even though they are directed at men and women of the same sex, are no different than those
      Message 2 of 9 , Feb 13, 2006
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        Chad W wrote:
        > What I meant by the be alone all their life part is some exgays swear
        > they never developed those feelings for women. So if they can't be with
        > a man then they will be alone.


        I'm not sure I can believe their words. Their sexual desires, even
        though they are directed at men and women of the same sex, are no
        different than those heterosexual men and women have. Outside of
        marriage, these desires are sinful just like a desire to steal or to lie
        is sinful. Again, unless Freud is our guide, I fail to see why
        homosexual lust should be dealt with any different than heterosexual
        lust. Staying alone because one lusts after their own sex makes as much
        sense as refusing to shop because stealing is a sin and who knows, maybe
        I can't handle myself and start stealing.

        Nikolai
        EPC of Australia
        Brisbane
      • Chad W
        I am confused are you saying to forced themselves to have hetero relations? I mean are you saying if they have a need for a relationship and even thought they
        Message 3 of 9 , Feb 13, 2006
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          I am confused are you saying to forced themselves to have hetero relations?

          I mean are you saying if they have a need for a relationship and even thought they are sexually gay in mind, they should hook up with a woman and marry her and force themselves to have sex with her. 

          Is that not wrong to her, to get married, while he is thinking or trying not to think gay thoughts as he performs the marriage rights?



          On 2/13/06, Nikolai <psalmos@...> wrote:
          Chad W wrote:
          > What I meant by the be alone all their life part is some exgays swear
          > they never developed those feelings for women.  So if they can't be with
          > a man then they will be alone.


          I'm not sure I can believe their words. Their sexual desires, even
          though they are directed at men and women of the same sex, are no
          different than those heterosexual men and women have. Outside of
          marriage, these desires are sinful just like a desire to steal or to lie
          is sinful. Again, unless Freud is our guide, I fail to see why
          homosexual lust should be dealt with any different than heterosexual
          lust. Staying alone because one lusts after their own sex makes as much
          sense as refusing to shop because stealing is a sin and who knows, maybe
          I can't handle myself and start stealing.

          Nikolai
          EPC of Australia
          Brisbane


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        • Nikolai
          ... I wouldn t use the word force though but if that s how you see it, so be it. God s word however leaves no option but for a union between man and woman to
          Message 4 of 9 , Feb 13, 2006
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            Chad W wrote:
            > I am confused are you saying to forced themselves to have hetero relations?

            I wouldn't use the word 'force' though but if that's how you see it, so
            be it. God's word however leaves no option but for a union between man
            and woman to be the only lawful way to engage in sexual relationship,
            everything else is fornication. If this sort of relationship is seen by
            some men to be forced upon them, then Lord have mercy on them. We can
            just as well conclude that paying for goods in the shop as opposed to
            stealing them is forcing oneself to do something one cannot do otherwise.


            > I mean are you saying if they have a need for a relationship and even
            > thought they are sexually gay in mind, they should hook up with a woman
            > and marry her and force themselves to have sex with her.


            "sexually gay in mind"? I'm afraid I don't really know what you mean
            unless this is something from a modern psychology book. What I do
            understand though is that God gave [some men] up to uncleanness through
            the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between
            themselves. This is what your friend should deal with, with the lust of
            his heart, lest he finds out that God gave him up to uncleanness of his
            heart.


            > Is that not wrong to her, to get married, while he is thinking or trying
            > not to think gay thoughts as he performs the marriage rights?


            I'm not suggesting he should get married no matter what, I'm suggesting
            he should *start* dealing with his sinful desires. Just because he lusts
            after men, his own sex, changes nothing and Paul tells us that if we
            can't manage our lusts while unmarried, we should get married. This way,
            these sorts of lusts are much more manageable.

            Nikolai
          • JOHN PUTZ
            I just have to say, as a woman, I totally agree with Susan. Thank you for your thoughtful advice. Holly ...
            Message 5 of 9 , Feb 14, 2006
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              I just have to say, as a woman, I totally agree with Susan. Thank you for
              your thoughtful advice.

              Holly


              >From: "susanandcrew" <gpyp@...>
              >Reply-To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              >To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              >Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Need Homosexuality Resources for a
              >friend
              >Date: Tue, 14 Feb 2006 16:18:48 -0000
              >
              >Chad,
              >
              >First, I'm so sorry to hear of this friend of yours--what a terrible
              >snare to be caught in, especially at such an advanced age. The
              >longer we are enslaved to any besetting sin, the harder it is to put
              >that sin off�the longer ice freezes the harder it becomes. This is
              >truly a great grief for your friend and a hard affliction. It is
              >encouraging though that he is seeking help and sanctification and
              >wisdom in how to deal with it. Better now then even later.
              >
              >As for practical resources: I would recommend two things, one
              >positive and one negative. On the negative side are resources that
              >show why sexual perversion is so wrong and damaging and that
              >encourage the sinner to flee. Author Steve Gallagher comes to mind.
              >He has written several books about sexual perversion, including "At
              >the Altar of Sexual Idolatry" and "The Walk of Repentance" (though
              >he has more, including a book about how to counsel someone enslaved
              >to sexual lusts). Much of Mr. Gallagher's work is focused on the
              >subject of pornography, but the fact is that a very large percentage
              >of homosexuals either are involved in pornography or once were, and
              >because sexual sins are all related no matter what form they take
              >the principles will apply. Another resource could be "In the Arena
              >of the Mind" by John Vandegriff.
              >
              >After your friend has thoroughly understood what, why, and how he is
              >to flee his perversions I would suggest that he also read about the
              >beauty of marital relationships, including the sexual aspects of
              >marriage. Deeply understanding the spiritual (as well as practical)
              >purposes of marriage and of sexual relations inside of marriage is
              >the other side of the same coin. Your friend needs to know what,
              >why, and how to flee sin, but he also needs to know what he is to
              >flee TO and what beauty and benefits there are to such an exchange.
              >We will never truly repent of our sins if we aren't both convinced
              >that they are disgusting and damaging AND also convinced that we are
              >missing something wonderful by remaining in them. We want to be
              >happy and we will ultimately do whatever we perceive will make us
              >so. Therefore, any works written (either old or new, depending on
              >what your friend is able or willing to read) on the beauty and
              >benefits of marriage would be appropriate. He MUST understand the
              >value of women in general and of one woman (a wife) in particular.
              >One resource that comes to mind is Wayne Mack's "Strengthening Your
              >Marriage." I understand your friend isn't married, but the book is
              >quite effective in revealing some of the beauty of the marital
              >relationship, including the sexual aspects of marriage. Perhaps
              >others can direct you to other good resources on marriage,
              >particularly those that focus on the synergistic and complementary
              >nature of men and women and particularly of marriage.
              >
              >Regarding your question�my thoughts are these. First, we cannot know
              >the full mind of God in particular dispensations or providences,
              >though often He does reveal bits and pieces and allows us to
              >see "all things working together for good." Not always do we get to
              >see this working out, even in a small way, other than with eyes of
              >faith. In other words, we can always know God's purposes in general
              >(His glory, our good and the good of others), but not always can we
              >see them in particular. How does or will your friend's dispensation
              >glorify God, be for your friend's good or for the good of others?
              >Perhaps time will reveal this to some degree�perhaps he won't know
              >in this life at all, but by faith he can know that God IS working
              >all things for the good for those who are the called according to
              >His purpose.
              >
              >Practically speaking I don't believe that the Scriptures hold out
              >that one must remain "bent" towards a certain sin and thereby be
              >excluded from certain blessings; however, consequences of our sin
              >might exclude us (making our lot quite our own fault and not God's).
              >Still, we cannot remain in the sin itself, no matter what suffering
              >we perceive will come from repentance. Your friend cannot use the
              >possibility of lifelong loneliness as an excuse not to give up
              >sodomitical sins in thought, word, or deed. It IS true though that
              >our sins cause us deep and often lasting corruptions (though not
              >necessarily, by God's grace!) and those consequences of our sins
              >could result in lifelong suffering. If that were the case, however,
              >we can be comforted knowing that the Lord will provide us most
              >gracious (quite underserved) comforts and consolations in our losses
              >and suffering. How merciful is He!
              >
              >In summary, it is quite possible for your friend to repent of
              >sodomitical sins and even possible that one day, as he repents, he
              >will find himself healed and attracted to and able to love a woman.
              >There are many testimonies out there of those this has happened to
              >and many of those go on to get married and live fulfilled in such a
              >state. ( http://www.exodus-international.org comes to mind as a
              >resource for hearing hopeful stories of deliverance, though I would
              >caution strongly about the ministry itself. I link this only as a
              >convenient place to hear hopeful stories.)
              >
              >Still, though it is possible, it does not always happen this way.
              >Sometimes repentance doesn't go deep enough for natural feelings
              >(for the opposite sex) to return and the corruptions of the soul are
              >not healed. Can they be? Yes. Will they be? That depends on your
              >friend and on the grace and will of God. Your friend does not
              >deserve deliverance. He does not deserve a wife. He deserves
              >loneliness for the rest of his life here and then some and IF the
              >Lord chooses to sanctify your friend through that affliction then
              >all he can do is clap his hand on his mouth and accept it as just,
              >continue in a life and walk of repentance and look for God's
              >promised consolations in suffering. That is more than sufficient for
              >a happy and fulfilling life! Remember that there are many people
              >that do not necessarily have the gift of continence like Paul had,
              >but also providentially find themselves single anyway. I was a widow
              >at 30 and did not marry again until I was 37�I did not turn down
              >suitable proposals during that time so it's not like I had much
              >choice to marry or not marry so during those years it was my calling
              >to press into the Lord and rely on Him as my Husband and the Father
              >to my children. If He had not provided a suitable husband for me for
              >the rest of my life (though I was willing) then it would have
              >remained my duty to rely solely on the Lord. Easy? No! But I say
              >this to show that marriage is not always a possibility for various
              >reasons even for those without the gift of continence.
              >
              >I do not believe that it would be righteous for your friend to marry
              >or to seek marriage at this point while he is in such a state. He is
              >not fit for marriage yet! Marriage is wonderful thing, but it is
              >also a grave responsibility, most especially for the man who must
              >represent Christ. For your friend to marry when he is so clearly not
              >ready for the life of sacrifice required of a husband would be not
              >only a gross error in my opinion, but a grave injustice to the woman
              >he would marry. Women are not a "cure" for men with homosexual
              >problems�Jesus Christ is! A wife is a gift from the Lord that
              >requires great care. To thrust or encourage a man into marriage
              >because of some hope that marriage will heal him is to place the
              >gift above the Giver and to misplace faith. Your friend may indeed
              >be made ready for marriage at some point and if so the Lord can
              >provide him a suitable wife (one who is able to handle and
              >understand his past and even able to patiently work with him and
              >encourage him in his walk of repentance), but to ask a woman to cure
              >him is simply out of order and a great disservice to both your
              >friend and the woman he would marry.
              >
              >Finally, remember that marriage is not primarily a sexual
              >relationship (though it certainly is that!), but a covenant of
              >companionship. I say this because if we focus too much on the sexual
              >aspect of marriage then it will seem impossible for a man like your
              >friend to ever qualify for marriage because even if he repents and
              >is healed from his corruptions he may never compare to other men in
              >sexual desire for women. BUT, if he is healed from his sins and is
              >able and willing to love a woman as a companion and sexual partner
              >then it is possible for him to marry happily one day. Perhaps right
              >now he can imagine himself being a good friend and committed
              >companion to a woman, but not a sexual partner. If so, he should
              >take heart because he already has the greater of those two
              >requirements and God is more than able to provide the other and so
              >much more.
              >
              >I pray that your friend and the Lord would both be willing.
              >
              >Susan
              >
              >
              >--- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Chad W
              ><chadaw@...> wrote:
              > >
              > > I have a friend, in his early forties, who is struggling with
              >giving up
              > > homosexual tendencies. Can someone point me to some resources.
              >And my own
              > > question. If a person is prone that way, are we to think God
              >meant for them
              > > to be alone all their lives? Or did He purposed it to reveal His
              >glory when
              > > they are restored to pure sexuality?
              > >
              > > Thanks.
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

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            • berean1993
              Chad: Jay Adams would say homosexual trangression requires the same treatment as any other sexual trangression, radical surgery. That is, if the individual
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 5, 2006
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                Chad:

                Jay Adams would say homosexual trangression requires the same
                treatment as any other sexual trangression, "radical surgery." That
                is, if the individual is truely repentant, really wants to forsake
                the sin forever, then he/she has to go "cold turkey," -- "radical
                surgery," never see the partner again, and cease fellowship with any
                persons given to sexual transgressions.

                As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.

                Just as important as the "radical surgery" is immediately getting
                into Christian fellowship, because they will have an irenic effect on
                him/her, influence him/her to stay on the straight and narrow.

                See:

                Foster, David Kyle, <A
                HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0964500000/webedbiblicalc
                ou"><B>Sexual Healing: God's Plan for the Sanctification of Broken
                Lives: A Reference Manual for Ministering to Those Trapped in Sexual
                Sin and Brokenness</B></A> (Jacksonville, FL [Mastering Life
                Ministries, P.O. Box 351149, Jacksonville 32235]: Mastering Life
                Ministries, 1997).<BR>
                This is a unique work and the best resource known to the compiler
                offering biblical counsel for healing sexual brokenness.
                See "Foundations" and "Divine Intent for Sexuality" for a biblical
                explanation of the spiritual significance of sexuality. These two
                chapters alone make the purchase of the book worthwhile. Includes
                chapters, study guides, and exercises for Root sources for improper
                sexual development, Sexual identity confusion, Child sex abuse,
                Sexual addition, Pornography, Masturbation, voyeurism and
                exhibitionism, Why people remain in sexual sin and bondage, Failure
                and self-condemnation, A comprehensive game plan for sexual healing,
                and so forth. Indexed, 398 pages, includes bibliography.<BR>
                <B>Mastering Life Ministries</B><BR>
                <A HREF="http://www.MasteringLife.org">
                http://www.MasteringLife.org</A>
                <P>

                "Homosexuality"
                A topical listing of annotated bibliography with weblinks.
                http://www.lettermen2.com/bcrr2chb.html#homo

                <B>Family Watchdog</B><BR>

                This national website tracks sexual offenders in your area.<BR>
                "Enter an address below to view a map of registered sex offenders
                near you."<BR>

                While this is much needed data, and we commend efforts thus far, this
                map will not include the following sexual offenders who should be
                publicly identified until they repent of their sexual offences:<OL>

                <LI>sexual offenders who have not been caught, tried, and convicted
                (the arrest/conviction ratio for all offences was approximately
                100/25 in the mid 90s);

                <LI>sexual offenders who have violated parole;

                <LI>sexual offenders who have failed to report their address or
                address change;

                <LI>sexual offenders using an alias (The FBI "believes 1 in 6 persons
                with a criminal record may be using alias names and identification." -
                - U.S. Congress, Office of Technology Assessment, OTA-TCT-497);

                <LI>sexual offenders who have been convicted on some other charge;

                <LI>ex-convicts and inmates who have committed sodomy in prison;

                <LI>individuals guilty of raping their spouse and the offense has
                gone unreported;

                <LI>wives who deliberately committ adultery as part of a "pre-planned
                divorce," that is, who married with plans to divorce for financial
                gain;

                <LI>individuals guilty of unreported incest;

                <LI>individuals guilty of unreported date rape;

                <LI>individuals who have committed unreported sexual offences when
                drunk or under the influence of drugs;

                <LI>individuals who have committed unreported sexual offences with
                mutual consent;

                <LI>individual members of Alcoholics Anonymous (who are frequently
                mentally ill, mentally retarded, and/or ex-convicts, -- many
                individuals falling in the former categories prefer to to be
                identified as alcoholics, because alcoholism does not carry the same
                social stigma as mental illness or being retarded) or other related
                10-Step addiction treatment programs who committed unreported sexual
                offences with other members or while being a sponsor of another
                member;

                <LI>individual members of Alcoholics Anonymous and related 10 Step
                codependent treatment programs who use the programs as vehicles to
                find new sexual partners for prostitution, and other sexual offences;

                <LI>individuals who have committed unreported sexual offences with
                other members of Alcoholics Anonymous or other related 10-Step
                addiction treatment programs while in a codependent relationship with
                another member;

                <LI>members of Sex Addicts Anonymous who have committed unreported
                sexual offences;

                <LI>prostitutes still at-large in society;

                <LI>those who frequent prostitutes;

                <LI>men and women self-employed in the "sex industry" (professionals
                deliberately practicing prostitution within the business community);

                <LI>individuals employed in the pornography industry including child
                pornography;

                <LI>individuals addicted to pornography or child pornography;

                <LI>individuals guilty of unreported sodomy and homosexuality;

                <LI>unreported homosexual pedophiles ("Homosexuals are over
                represented in child sex offenses: Individuals from the 1 to 3
                percent of the population that is sexually attracted to the same sex
                are committing up to one-third of the sex crimes against children." --
                Timothy J. Dailey, Ph.D. in "Homosexuality and Child Sexual Abuse");

                <LI>individuals guilty of unreported rape;

                <LI>individuals guilty of unreported fornication;

                <LI>individual guilty of unreported adultery;

                <LI>individuals living in licentious cohabitation;

                <LI>individuals who are mentally retarded and promiscuous;

                <LI>individuals who have sever mental illness and are promiscuous;

                <LI>individuals who dabble in, or actively participate in satanic
                cults or related destructive cults that practice sexual rituals;

                <LI>licensed mental health care professionals (Psychiatrists,
                Clinical Psychologists, Psych Nurses, Medical Doctors, Counselors,
                Priests, Pastors, and Churchmen, and so forth) who become sexually
                involved with their patients, clients, counselees, or church members;

                <LI>and so forth, and so on.</OL>

                <A HREF="http://www12.familywatchdog.us/">
                http://www12.familywatchdog.us/</A>
                <P>

                Sincerely,

                sk













                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Chad W <chadaw@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > I have a friend, in his early forties, who is struggling with
                giving up
                > homosexual tendencies. Can someone point me to some resources.
                And my own
                > question. If a person is prone that way, are we to think God meant
                for them
                > to be alone all their lives? Or did He purposed it to reveal His
                glory when
                > they are restored to pure sexuality?
                >
                > Thanks.
                >
              • Whit
                ... That ... any ... on ... I can strongly attest to the truth of that from Scripture and from personal experience. He who walks with the wise grows wise,
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 6, 2006
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                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "berean1993"
                  <Lettermen2@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Chad:
                  >
                  > Jay Adams would say homosexual trangression requires the same
                  > treatment as any other sexual trangression, "radical surgery."
                  That
                  > is, if the individual is truely repentant, really wants to forsake
                  > the sin forever, then he/she has to go "cold turkey," -- "radical
                  > surgery," never see the partner again, and cease fellowship with
                  any
                  > persons given to sexual transgressions.
                  >
                  > As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another.
                  >
                  > Just as important as the "radical surgery" is immediately getting
                  > into Christian fellowship, because they will have an irenic effect
                  on
                  > him/her, influence him/her to stay on the straight and narrow.
                  >

                  I can strongly attest to the truth of that from Scripture and from
                  personal experience. "He who walks with the wise grows wise, but a
                  companion of fools suffers harm." (Prov.)

                  Whit
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