Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Calvin's Preface to the Psalter (EP)

Expand Messages
  • Crazy Calvinist
    Well as far as I can see, whether other songs from Scripture or the Psalms, the qualification for being able to write songs meant for worship was one had to
    Message 1 of 15 , Jan 3, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Well as far as I can see,  whether other songs from Scripture or the Psalms, the qualification for being able to write songs meant for worship was one had to be a prophet. or prophetess. I don't think Charles Wesley qualifies.
       
      ~Deejay

      "Edgar A. Ibarra Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@...> wrote:
      >Alas, the dilema for supporters of singing man-made hymns.  They
      would not argue so anyways.  If God allowed man to write their own
      songs to offer up as a sacrifice of praise in the public worship of
      God we would have some form of indication of that in the NT, but we
      do not.  Do not mis-understand me, I believe there are many
      beautiful and wonderful hymns, my favorite was "Christ shall have
      dominion" which is a parapharse of a Psalm.  Now for those who would
      argue that we can sing the song of Mary, for example, then that line
      of argumentation is still not an argument in favor of man-made
      hymns, but of inspired hymnody and you are still limited as to the
      number of hymns outside of the Psalms.  Many in Geneva did sing
      other songs besides the Psalms, but they were INSPIRED hymns.  The
      counter to singing such hymns is this, were those hymns intended for
      public worship or just an expression of the people overtaken by the
      Holy Spirit and the work of God that was upon them?  The Psalms were
      meant for worship, but the "inspired hymns" were not.  As for the
      hymns before the Psalter, that was allowed as God was still
      revealing Himself (i.e. progressive revelation was occuring) to man
      and until He settled things, there was some liberty in certain
      areas.  HOWEVER, when the Psalter was completed, that was it, no
      more were to be added, like the closing of the canon of Scripture. 
      We see the Song of Moses for example incorporated into the Psalter.

      >


      Yahoo! Cars NEW - sell your car and browse thousands of new and used cars online search now

    • Nikolai
      ... Psalms, the qualification for being able to write songs meant for worship was one had to be a prophet. or prophetess. I don t think Charles Wesley
      Message 2 of 15 , Jan 3, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        <crazy_calvinist@y...> wrote:


        >>Well as far as I can see, whether other songs from Scripture or the
        Psalms, the qualification for being able to write songs meant for
        worship was one had to be a prophet. or prophetess. I don't think
        Charles Wesley qualifies.<<


        Deejay,
        those wishing to sing Wesley's song deny there's such a requirement
        and I agree with them, there's no such requirement found in Scripture.
        Our position, IMO, rests entirely on the Regulative Principle (WCF
        ch.XXI). Those who say they accept ch.XXI of the Confession as truly
        reflecting scriptural view of worship and at the same engage in
        un-scriptural worship practice such as hymn signing are either
        confused or lying.

        Nikolai
        EPC od Australia, Brisbane
      • gmw
        I agree about the Regulative Principle of Worship, which of course is of great importance in the discussion of Exclusive Psalmody. However, I must agree with
        Message 3 of 15 , Jan 3, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          I agree about the Regulative Principle of Worship, which of course is
          of great importance in the discussion of Exclusive Psalmody. However,
          I must agree with Deejay about the significance that the "psalm,
          hymns, and spiritual song" composers spoken of in Scripture are
          specifically said to be prophets or prophetesses.

          From Brian Schwertley's work on Psalmody:

          "A careful examination of the Scripture passages which discuss the
          songs used in worship and how worship songs were composed reveals that
          God only authorizes and accepts divinely inspired songs for the praise
          of Himself. 'If when the Bible speaks of the source of worship song,
          it portrays the text as one produced by divine inspiration, then
          inspiration is a biblical norm for this ordinance as well.'

          "There are so many examples in the Bible which show the connection
          between writing songs of praise for the church and prophetic
          inspiration that it is astounding that this point has been largely
          ignored by those who claim to hold to the regulative principle. There
          is the example of the prophetess Miriam who, by divine inspiration,
          composed a song to celebrate God’s deliverance of Israel from Egypt
          (Ex. 15:20-21). We also have the inspired song of Deborah the
          prophetess (Jdg. 5). There are the Spirit-inspired songs of the
          prophet Isaiah (e.g. 5:1, 26:1 ff., etc.) as well as the divinely
          inspired song of Mary (Lk. 1:46 ff.). If 1 Corinthians 14:26 refers to
          Christians composing songs for public worship, these songs were 'as is
          universally admitted, charismatic songs and therefore products of the
          immediate inspiration of the Holy Spirit.' (The question of whether
          the new covenant church should sing divinely inspired songs outside of
          the book of Psalms is dealt with below.)

          "The Old Testament saints whom God used to write the Psalter wrote by
          the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Note once again that prophetic
          inspiration and the writing of songs of praise go hand in hand. King
          David, whom the Bible calls a prophet (2 Chr. 29:25-30), wrote his
          songs by a special gift of the Holy Spirit (2 Sam. 23:1, 2; Ac. 1:16).
          The New Testament repeatedly refers to David as a prophet when it
          quotes his songs (cf. Mt. 22:43-44; Mk. 12:36; Ac. 1:16-17; 2:29-31;
          4:24-25). The worship of the temple musicians and singers is referred
          to as prophecy in Scripture (1 Chr. 25:1-7). This designation, when
          applied to song content, obviously means that what they sang was the
          product of divine inspiration. Thus, the temple musicians and singers
          who were involved in writing songs for worship did so under the
          special operation of the Spirit. Heman (who was appointed by David as
          a worship leader of the sanctuary) is called a 'seer' (1 Chr. 25:5) in
          Scripture; a term synonymous with the word 'prophet.' Bushell writes,
          'Prophetic titles and roles are consistently attributed to the chief
          temple musicians and singers. Asaph, for example, one of David’s
          principle musicians (1 Chr. 6:39; 15:17; 16:5 ff.; 2 Chr. 5:12),
          appointed by him over the service of song and by Solomon in the Temple
          service, is also called a ‘seer’ and placed alongside David as far as
          authority in Temple music is concerned (2 Chr. 29:30). Nor ought we to
          miss the significance of the fact that some 12 of the Old Testament
          Psalms (50, 73-83) are attributed to Asaph, thus confirming his role
          as a writer of inspired worship song. Jeduthun, another chief temple
          singer, is also called a "seer" (2 Chr. 35:15; cf. 25:1; and Pss. 39,
          62, and 77 titles).' The writing of worship songs in the Old Testament
          was so intimately connected with prophetic inspiration that 2 Kings
          23:2 and 2 Chronicles 34:30 use the term 'Levite' and 'prophet'
          interchangeably. The worship of Jehovah is so important that nothing
          less than infallible Spirit-inspired lyrics are acceptable for praise
          in the church."

          -- see more on this subject, as well as the footnotes re: the
          quotations, in point 5 of Chapter 2 at
          http://www.reformed.com/pub/psalms.htm

          gmw.

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Nikolai"
          <psalmos@s...> wrote:

          >
          > Deejay,
          > those wishing to sing Wesley's song deny there's such a requirement
          > and I agree with them, there's no such requirement found in Scripture.
          > Our position, IMO, rests entirely on the Regulative Principle (WCF
          > ch.XXI). Those who say they accept ch.XXI of the Confession as truly
          > reflecting scriptural view of worship and at the same engage in
          > un-scriptural worship practice such as hymn signing are either
          > confused or lying.
          >
          > Nikolai
          > EPC od Australia, Brisbane
          >
        • Nikolai
          ... All I can gather from Mr. Schwertley s quote is that the songs recorded in scripture are inspired. Nobody disputes that or at least no Bible believing
          Message 4 of 15 , Jan 4, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            gmw wrote:

            >>From Brian Schwertley's work on Psalmody:
            >
            > "A careful examination of the Scripture passages which discuss the
            > songs used in worship and how worship songs were composed reveals that
            > God only authorizes and accepts divinely inspired songs for the praise
            > of Himself.


            All I can gather from Mr. Schwertley's quote is that the songs recorded
            in scripture are inspired. Nobody disputes that or at least no Bible
            believing Christian does. The contention is not about whether or not the
            songs in the Bible are inspired, the contention is about can we sing
            uninspired songs in worship. I simply think insisting that Biblical song
            writers were inspired prophets will not impress someone wishing to sing
            hymns in worship. After all, we do listen to uninspired scripture
            exposition and prayer every Lord's day. Analogically, there seems to be
            nothing wrong with singing uninspired songs. The only way, in my
            opinion, to actually defeat those wishing to sing uninspired songs is by
            invoking the Regulative Principle, that is, *they* must, not us, to
            produce a scriptural warrant for their practice. This is when the two
            passages from Ephesians and Colossians are brought up but they are of no
            help for them of course.

            Obviously, with those denying the Regulative Principle altogether
            different methods should be used but eventually, the goal is still to
            show that God should not be worshiped according to imaginations of men
            or suggestions of Satan no matter who we're speaking to, Reformed,
            Baptists, Charismatics or whoever.

            Nikolai
            EPC of Australia, Brisbane
          • gmw
            Hi Nikolai, Some quick comments below: ... But the very quote you included in your response here says much more than simply songs recorded in Scripture are
            Message 5 of 15 , Jan 4, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Hi Nikolai,

              Some quick comments below:

              Nikolai wrote:

              > gmw wrote:
              >
              > >>From Brian Schwertley's work on Psalmody:
              > >
              > > "A careful examination of the Scripture passages which discuss the
              > > songs used in worship and how worship songs were composed reveals that
              > > God only authorizes and accepts divinely inspired songs for the praise
              > > of Himself.
              >
              >
              > All I can gather from Mr. Schwertley's quote is that the songs recorded
              > in scripture are inspired.


              But the very quote you included in your response here says much more
              than simply "songs recorded in Scripture are inspired." It's saying
              that the songs which God provides and accepts of, to be used in worship,
              are inspired. And so, Scripture only gives warrant for the use of
              inspired songs in worship.

              > Nobody disputes that or at least no Bible
              > believing Christian does.

              No Bible believing Christian disputes what you said, but obviously not
              all Christians believe what Schwertley was actually saying -- that
              Scripture only gives warrant for the use of divinely inspired songs in
              worship.

              > The contention is not about whether or not the
              > songs in the Bible are inspired, the contention is about can we sing
              > uninspired songs in worship.

              Yes, agreed, of course. I've surely not denied this.

              > I simply think insisting that Biblical song
              > writers were inspired prophets will not impress someone wishing to sing
              > hymns in worship.

              Someone wishing to sing hymns in worship (hymns here meaning uninspired
              songs as opposed to the inspired hymns commonly called the Psalms) will
              not likely be impressed with anything we insist! Someone wishing to
              worship God biblically, however, may very well be impressed with the
              nature of the songs used in worship given by inspired prophets and
              prophetesses. Now, no one is "simply" insisting that our worship songs
              must be inspired without also having an eye to the Regulative Principle
              of Worship. What I'm saying is this:

              Given the Regulative Principle of Worship, we must have Scriptural
              warrant for our acts of worship. Scripture gives warrant for the use of
              inspired songs in worship, which songs were delivered by inspired men
              and women. Scripture gives warrant for no other type of song.
              Therefore, we only have warrant from Scripture to sing inspired songs
              delivered by inspired people, in worship.

              How we come to limit those songs to the 150 Psalms, is, of course,
              another (yet related) issue.

              > After all, we do listen to uninspired scripture
              > exposition and prayer every Lord's day.

              Of course, and both uninspired (strictly speaking) preaching and prayer
              have Scriptural warrant.

              > The only way, in my
              > opinion, to actually defeat those wishing to sing uninspired songs is by
              > invoking the Regulative Principle, that is, *they* must, not us, to
              > produce a scriptural warrant for their practice. This is when the two
              > passages from Ephesians and Colossians are brought up but they are of no
              > help for them of course.


              And I agree with this. If you are understanding anything I'm saying to
              disagree with your statement of yours, then either I'm being unclear, or
              you are misunderstanding me, friend.

              The issue is not that God commands us to /sing only divinely inspired
              Psalms/, but that God /only commands us to sing divinely inspired
              Psalms/. Given the Regulative Principle, this is enough to warrant
              Psalmody, and nothing else.

              Good'ay.
              gmw.

              >
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.