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Re: The X-mass thread

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  • Benjamin Hart
    Some further analysis of Christmas: What exactly constitutes celebrating Christmas or in some way approbating it? What is essential to celebrating Christmas
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 11, 2005
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      Some further analysis of Christmas:
       
      What exactly constitutes 'celebrating' Christmas or in some way approbating it?  What is essential to celebrating Christmas or any other holiday of which we disapprove?  Would we consider the person who doesn't work on sunday a person who celebrates the Lord's Day? 
       
      I mention these questions because someone said they'd not sent out cards or anything like that in quite a while.  Well, why exactly are some of these things wrong?  It's being assumed that this kind of activity (which I consider a gray-area for my own practice), is essential to approbating Christmas. 
       
      OK, so you get the flavor of my concerns...here's a theory for how to distinguish between celebrating or not celebrating a holiday:
       
      Any cultural-religious activity in which you *actively* participate is of the essence of celebrating Christmas, and any cultural-religious activity in which you *passively* or by necessity participate is not of the essence of celebrating the day. 
       
      Specifically, you actively participate when you actually, of your own will (i.e. without some form of compulsion) enter into a practice that is accepted in your cultural context as celebrating Christmas (or any holiday for that matter.)  So, decorating ones house with the obvious paraphernalia, exchanging gifts, etc. are all covered and clearly wrong. 
       
      Conversely, by passively doing things the culture around you coerce you into doing, you can't be seen as celebrating Christmas.  No matter how you slice it, you have to go shopping, take the day(s) off of work, etc., in the same way that the person who has Sunday off doesn't celebrate the Lord's day. 
       
      (By way of observation, I've made this distinction on an almost purely external relation to the society around you.  I'm not sure if that indicates I'm lacking some important part of the distinction, but perhaps someone else can address that point.)
       
      If true, this may seem elementary to some, but there are activites that some of us struggle with as to whether or not they are acceptable to do around Christmas time.  For example, attending family get-togethers or even church get-togethers that have the appearance of a Christmas gathering - are they wrong?  What about having a ham dinner on Christmas day? 
       
      I believe going about the Christmas issue with this kind of analysis is necessary, because if you don't have the appropriate distinctions in hand, you run the risk of becoming irrelevant to your culture and anachronistic in your criticisms.  If we don't know exactly what it is to celebrate Christmas *today*, we may be setting up straw-men when we discuss the issue with others. 
       
      Sorry for the somewhat immature development of some of these thoughts - they're more intended to stimulate discussion than anything. 
       


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    • gmw
      Ben, you make some good points. I have some comments below. ... I ve discussed this with some of my family members who celebrate X-mas. I like ham. I like
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 11, 2005
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        Ben, you make some good points. I have some comments below.

        Benjamin Hart wrote:

        > If true, this may seem elementary to some, but there are activites
        > that some of us struggle with as to whether or not they are acceptable
        > to do around Christmas time. For example, attending family
        > get-togethers or even church get-togethers that have the appearance of
        > a Christmas gathering - are they wrong? What about having a ham
        > dinner on Christmas day?

        I've discussed this with some of my family members who celebrate X-mas.
        I like ham. I like gifts. I like eathing and drinking and enjoying
        company. If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat and
        drink and enjoy my family. If, however, I'm invited to a "Christmas
        party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline. In my own home, where we
        are all clear that we do not observe X-mas, whether or not we eat ham,
        or turkey, or green and red cookies bought at the store, or spaghetti,
        or peanut butter and jelly does not matter -- no one is going to be
        confused or have their conscience tripped up. This isn't true among
        mixed company, and so we must keep that in consideration as well. So, I
        guess I'm saying that many things considered in an of themselves are
        indifferent, but when they are so closely associated with the day, and
        even named after the day we sometimes may lay down our liberties for the
        sake of others (I might eat dinner on the day called X-mas, I am not
        however ever attending or having a X-mas dinner). Other things, such as
        the X-mas tree, the idolatrous nativity scenes featuring the plastic
        baby Jesus that doesn't save anyone, superstitious mistletoe and the
        other trappings that are nothing but pure X-mas, I avoid altogether.

        Think of it (here comes a bad example, but humor me, would ya?) If
        there were a pagan day, I don't know, called PAGAN DAY, and on PAGAN DAY
        everyone was to wear bright pink clothing and a violet in their hair in
        honor of the goddess of fashion and flowers or something. And along
        comes the Pope who says PAGAN DAY is now AMBULATION DAY, commemorating
        the day that little toddler Jesus learned to walk. In celebration of
        this, we should wear bright pink clothing and put violets in our hair.
        Should Christians, even those who on other days would have no problem
        wearing bright pink and having flowers in their hair, be caught dead
        with bright pink and flowers on PAGAN DAY, oops, I mean AMBULATION DAY?

        ?

        gmw.
      • Whit
        Could a Day of Thanksgiving be instituted to celebrate the Lord s Incarnation? I thought it could, but after reading Reformed material on DoT s, it seems that
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 11, 2005
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          Could a Day of Thanksgiving be instituted to celebrate the Lord's
          Incarnation? I thought it could, but after reading Reformed
          material on DoT's, it seems that it could not since DoT's were only
          for extraordinary time and circumstances (instead of a regular,
          ordinary time) and that following a Day of Fasting or Humiliation.

          Whit


          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
          <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Ben, you make some good points. I have some comments below.
          >
          > Benjamin Hart wrote:
          >
          > > If true, this may seem elementary to some, but there are
          activites
          > > that some of us struggle with as to whether or not they are
          acceptable
          > > to do around Christmas time. For example, attending family
          > > get-togethers or even church get-togethers that have the
          appearance of
          > > a Christmas gathering - are they wrong? What about having a ham
          > > dinner on Christmas day?
          >
          > I've discussed this with some of my family members who celebrate X-
          mas.
          > I like ham. I like gifts. I like eathing and drinking and
          enjoying
          > company. If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat
          and
          > drink and enjoy my family. If, however, I'm invited to
          a "Christmas
          > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline. In my own home,
          where we
          > are all clear that we do not observe X-mas, whether or not we eat
          ham,
          > or turkey, or green and red cookies bought at the store, or
          spaghetti,
          > or peanut butter and jelly does not matter -- no one is going to
          be
          > confused or have their conscience tripped up. This isn't true
          among
          > mixed company, and so we must keep that in consideration as well.
          So, I
          > guess I'm saying that many things considered in an of themselves
          are
          > indifferent, but when they are so closely associated with the day,
          and
          > even named after the day we sometimes may lay down our liberties
          for the
          > sake of others (I might eat dinner on the day called X-mas, I am
          not
          > however ever attending or having a X-mas dinner). Other things,
          such as
          > the X-mas tree, the idolatrous nativity scenes featuring the
          plastic
          > baby Jesus that doesn't save anyone, superstitious mistletoe and
          the
          > other trappings that are nothing but pure X-mas, I avoid
          altogether.
          >
          > Think of it (here comes a bad example, but humor me, would ya?)
          If
          > there were a pagan day, I don't know, called PAGAN DAY, and on
          PAGAN DAY
          > everyone was to wear bright pink clothing and a violet in their
          hair in
          > honor of the goddess of fashion and flowers or something. And
          along
          > comes the Pope who says PAGAN DAY is now AMBULATION DAY,
          commemorating
          > the day that little toddler Jesus learned to walk. In celebration
          of
          > this, we should wear bright pink clothing and put violets in our
          hair.
          > Should Christians, even those who on other days would have no
          problem
          > wearing bright pink and having flowers in their hair, be caught
          dead
          > with bright pink and flowers on PAGAN DAY, oops, I mean AMBULATION
          DAY?
          >
          > ?
          >
          > gmw.
          >
        • Ginny Dohms
          ... Ben and GMW, We have struggled with this over the years too. At first we made if clear to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 11, 2005
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            >If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat and
            > drink and enjoy my family. If, however, I'm invited to a "Christmas
            > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline.

            Ben and GMW,

            We have struggled with this over the years too. At first we made if clear
            to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas celebration. So
            they modified their terminology and asked us to just come for a family meal.
            We did that the first year, and maybe two, but soon realized that it was
            simply quibbling over semantics. It was still a "Christmas dinner" to them
            in their hearts, though they were changing the name to make it less
            offensive to us. Their whole reason for getting together at that particular
            time, (even if they moved the dinner away from the 25th and had it on the
            23rd or 26th), was still for the purpose of celebrating Christmas together
            with the family. It made our testimony less effective by attending, I
            believe, and it had the appearance of a compromise. I am not saying these
            things are always unlawful, but there is a fine line between maintaining a
            faithful witness, and compromising for the sake of the warm fuzzies, and the
            good food, that can lead to confusion on the part of those whom we trying to
            testify to.

            Just my thoughts.

            Ginny
          • gmw
            For us it doesn t much matter anyway, as people eventually just stopped inviting us altogether! gmw.
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 11, 2005
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              For us it doesn't much matter anyway, as people eventually just stopped
              inviting us altogether!

              gmw.

              Ginny Dohms wrote:

              > >If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat and
              > > drink and enjoy my family. If, however, I'm invited to a "Christmas
              > > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline.
              >
              > Ben and GMW,
              >
              > We have struggled with this over the years too. At first we made if clear
              > to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas
              > celebration. So
              > they modified their terminology and asked us to just come for a family
              > meal.
              > We did that the first year, and maybe two, but soon realized that it was
              > simply quibbling over semantics. It was still a "Christmas dinner" to
              > them
              > in their hearts, though they were changing the name to make it less
              > offensive to us. Their whole reason for getting together at that
              > particular
              > time, (even if they moved the dinner away from the 25th and had it on the
              > 23rd or 26th), was still for the purpose of celebrating Christmas together
              > with the family. It made our testimony less effective by attending, I
              > believe, and it had the appearance of a compromise. I am not saying these
              > things are always unlawful, but there is a fine line between maintaining a
              > faithful witness, and compromising for the sake of the warm fuzzies,
              > and the
              > good food, that can lead to confusion on the part of those whom we
              > trying to
              > testify to.
              >
              > Just my thoughts.
              >
              > Ginny
              >
              >
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            • Jasper
              Hi Folks. I d like to ask for purposes of clarification: What if a family gathering was to be held, say, in late June to commemorate the incarnation of
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 11, 2005
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                Hi Folks.   I'd like to ask for purposes of clarification:    What if a family gathering was to be held, say, in late June to commemorate the incarnation of the Messiah.  Would this be acceptable or unacceptable?   Is the issue for you more the time of year, or the commemoration itself?
                 
                Interesting discussion.
                 
                Jasper

                Ginny Dohms <gdawn@...> wrote:
                >If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat and
                > drink and enjoy my family.  If, however, I'm invited to a "Christmas
                > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline.

                Ben and GMW,

                We have struggled with this over the years too.  At first we made if clear
                to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas celebration.  So
                they modified their terminology and asked us to just come for a family meal.
                We did that the first year, and maybe two, but soon realized that it was
                simply quibbling over semantics.  It was still a "Christmas dinner" to them
                in their hearts, though they were changing the name to make it less
                offensive to us.  Their whole reason for getting together at that particular
                time, (even if they moved the dinner away from the 25th and had it on the
                23rd or 26th), was still for the purpose of celebrating Christmas together
                with the family.  It made our testimony less effective by attending
                , I
                believe, and it had the appearance of a compromise.  I am not saying these
                things are always unlawful, but there is a fine line between maintaining a
                faithful witness, and compromising for the sake of the warm fuzzies, and the
                good food, that can lead to confusion on the part of those whom we trying to
                testify to.

                Just my thoughts.

                Ginny



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              • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                GMW, Well, if you like most are having a 3 day weekend, you and your family can come to Albany, NY and spend the weekend here, with us and others. I,
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 11, 2005
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                  GMW,

                  Well, if you like most are having a 3 day weekend, you and your
                  family can come to Albany, NY and spend the weekend here, with us
                  and others. I, personally, would love to meet you and your family
                  face to face. Since we are Mexicas/Latinos, we would have burritos
                  and tacos instead of ham and turkey. ;-)

                  What'cha think?

                  Your friend,

                  Edgar

                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                  <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                  >
                  > For us it doesn't much matter anyway, as people eventually just
                  stopped
                  > inviting us altogether!
                  >
                  > gmw.
                  >
                  > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                  >
                  > > >If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat and
                  > > > drink and enjoy my family. If, however, I'm invited to
                  a "Christmas
                  > > > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline.
                  > >
                  > > Ben and GMW,
                  > >
                  > > We have struggled with this over the years too. At first we
                  made if clear
                  > > to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas
                  > > celebration. So
                  > > they modified their terminology and asked us to just come for a
                  family
                  > > meal.
                  > > We did that the first year, and maybe two, but soon realized
                  that it was
                  > > simply quibbling over semantics. It was still a "Christmas
                  dinner" to
                  > > them
                  > > in their hearts, though they were changing the name to make it
                  less
                  > > offensive to us. Their whole reason for getting together at
                  that
                  > > particular
                  > > time, (even if they moved the dinner away from the 25th and had
                  it on the
                  > > 23rd or 26th), was still for the purpose of celebrating
                  Christmas together
                  > > with the family. It made our testimony less effective by
                  attending, I
                  > > believe, and it had the appearance of a compromise. I am not
                  saying these
                  > > things are always unlawful, but there is a fine line between
                  maintaining a
                  > > faithful witness, and compromising for the sake of the warm
                  fuzzies,
                  > > and the
                  > > good food, that can lead to confusion on the part of those whom
                  we
                  > > trying to
                  > > testify to.
                  > >
                  > > Just my thoughts.
                  > >
                  > > Ginny
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                  -------
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                  > >
                  > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                  > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                  on
                  > > the web.
                  > >
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                  > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                  unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                  > >
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                  > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                  > >
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                  -------
                  > >
                  >
                • Cheryl Grenon
                  Since I don t have any extended family out our way, the family get togethers are done in our home so we have control over what happens. We do the warm fuzzy
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 11, 2005
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                    Since I don't have any extended family out our way, the family get togethers are done in our home so we have control over what happens.  We do the warm fuzzy thing for people at their birthdays and any other time my kids are all in town at the same time.    Since people usually get a few days off around the unholy holidays, it does make it convenient for a get together.  Most of my kids don't remember a time when we celebrated Christmass, and they know our views on the topic, so we do get together with a clean conscience and just enjoy one another without any of us being under the impression that we are celebrating any sort of man made holy day.
                     
                    Cheryl
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: Sunday, December 11, 2005 6:27 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: The X-mass thread

                    >If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat and
                    > drink and enjoy my family.  If, however, I'm invited to a "Christmas
                    > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline.

                    Ben and GMW,

                    We have struggled with this over the years too.  At first we made if clear
                    to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas celebration.  So
                    they modified their terminology and asked us to just come for a family meal.
                    We did that the first year, and maybe two, but soon realized that it was
                    simply quibbling over semantics.  It was still a "Christmas dinner" to them
                    in their hearts, though they were changing the name to make it less
                    offensive to us.  Their whole reason for getting together at that particular
                    time, (even if they moved the dinner away from the 25th and had it on the
                    23rd or 26th), was still for the purpose of celebrating Christmas together
                    with the family.  It made our testimony less effective by attending, I
                    believe, and it had the appearance of a compromise.  I am not saying these
                    things are always unlawful, but there is a fine line between maintaining a
                    faithful witness, and compromising for the sake of the warm fuzzies, and the
                    good food, that can lead to confusion on the part of those whom we trying to
                    testify to.

                    Just my thoughts.

                    Ginny

                  • thekirkman_gmail
                    Burritos and tacos ? Sounds like a compromise to me ;-) My sister-in-law is Pueblo Indian / Mexican and her family has green chili enchiladas every Xmas. ...
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 12, 2005
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                      "Burritos and tacos"? Sounds like a compromise to me ;-)

                      My sister-in-law is Pueblo Indian / Mexican and her family has green
                      chili enchiladas every Xmas.



                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                      Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > GMW,
                      >
                      > Well, if you like most are having a 3 day weekend, you and your
                      > family can come to Albany, NY and spend the weekend here, with us
                      > and others. I, personally, would love to meet you and your family
                      > face to face. Since we are Mexicas/Latinos, we would have
                      burritos
                      > and tacos instead of ham and turkey. ;-)
                      >
                      > What'cha think?
                      >
                      > Your friend,
                      >
                      > Edgar
                      >
                      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                      > <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > For us it doesn't much matter anyway, as people eventually just
                      > stopped
                      > > inviting us altogether!
                      > >
                      > > gmw.
                      > >
                      > > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > >If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat and
                      > > > > drink and enjoy my family. If, however, I'm invited to
                      > a "Christmas
                      > > > > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline.
                      > > >
                      > > > Ben and GMW,
                      > > >
                      > > > We have struggled with this over the years too. At first we
                      > made if clear
                      > > > to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas
                      > > > celebration. So
                      > > > they modified their terminology and asked us to just come for
                      a
                      > family
                      > > > meal.
                      > > > We did that the first year, and maybe two, but soon realized
                      > that it was
                      > > > simply quibbling over semantics. It was still a "Christmas
                      > dinner" to
                      > > > them
                      > > > in their hearts, though they were changing the name to make it
                      > less
                      > > > offensive to us. Their whole reason for getting together at
                      > that
                      > > > particular
                      > > > time, (even if they moved the dinner away from the 25th and
                      had
                      > it on the
                      > > > 23rd or 26th), was still for the purpose of celebrating
                      > Christmas together
                      > > > with the family. It made our testimony less effective by
                      > attending, I
                      > > > believe, and it had the appearance of a compromise. I am not
                      > saying these
                      > > > things are always unlawful, but there is a fine line between
                      > maintaining a
                      > > > faithful witness, and compromising for the sake of the warm
                      > fuzzies,
                      > > > and the
                      > > > good food, that can lead to confusion on the part of those
                      whom
                      > we
                      > > > trying to
                      > > > testify to.
                      > > >
                      > > > Just my thoughts.
                      > > >
                      > > > Ginny
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                      --
                      > -------
                      > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                      > > >
                      > > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                      > > >
                      <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                      > on
                      > > > the web.
                      > > >
                      > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                      > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                      > > >
                      > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                      Terms
                      > of
                      > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • gmw
                      Hey Jasper, I guess my questions to your question would be, 1. Does God command us to commemorate the incarnation of Messiah by a special day at all, besides
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 12, 2005
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                        Hey Jasper,

                        I guess my questions to your question would be,

                        1. Does God command us to commemorate the incarnation of Messiah by
                        a special day at all, besides every single Lord's Day? Related to
                        this question,

                        2. How can we know if God is pleased with this commemoration?

                        3. How are we commemorating this incarnation at the family
                        gathering? Does it look just like X-mass, but in June?

                        Still looking forward to our cup of coffee,
                        gmw.

                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jasper
                        <jasperh98@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Folks. I'd like to ask for purposes of clarification: What
                        if a family gathering was to be held, say, in late June to
                        commemorate the incarnation of the Messiah. Would this be acceptable
                        or unacceptable? Is the issue for you more the time of year, or the
                        commemoration itself?
                        >
                        > Interesting discussion.
                        >
                        > Jasper
                      • gmw
                        Edgar, I don t have a three day w/e, but I d like to try and take you up on this sometime. Sadly, I struggle to find time to visit with my friends who live 30
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 12, 2005
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                          Edgar,

                          I don't have a three day w/e, but I'd like to try and take you up on
                          this sometime. Sadly, I struggle to find time to visit with my
                          friends who live 30 minutes away!

                          gmw.

                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                          Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > GMW,
                          >
                          > Well, if you like most are having a 3 day weekend, you and your
                          > family can come to Albany, NY and spend the weekend here, with us
                          > and others. I, personally, would love to meet you and your family
                          > face to face. Since we are Mexicas/Latinos, we would have burritos
                          > and tacos instead of ham and turkey. ;-)
                          >
                          > What'cha think?
                          >
                          > Your friend,
                          >
                          > Edgar
                          >
                          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                          > <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > For us it doesn't much matter anyway, as people eventually just
                          > stopped
                          > > inviting us altogether!
                          > >
                          > > gmw.
                          > >
                          > > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                          > >
                          > > > >If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat and
                          > > > > drink and enjoy my family. If, however, I'm invited to
                          > a "Christmas
                          > > > > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline.
                          > > >
                          > > > Ben and GMW,
                          > > >
                          > > > We have struggled with this over the years too. At first we
                          > made if clear
                          > > > to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas
                          > > > celebration. So
                          > > > they modified their terminology and asked us to just come for a
                          > family
                          > > > meal.
                          > > > We did that the first year, and maybe two, but soon realized
                          > that it was
                          > > > simply quibbling over semantics. It was still a "Christmas
                          > dinner" to
                          > > > them
                          > > > in their hearts, though they were changing the name to make it
                          > less
                          > > > offensive to us. Their whole reason for getting together at
                          > that
                          > > > particular
                          > > > time, (even if they moved the dinner away from the 25th and had
                          > it on the
                          > > > 23rd or 26th), was still for the purpose of celebrating
                          > Christmas together
                          > > > with the family. It made our testimony less effective by
                          > attending, I
                          > > > believe, and it had the appearance of a compromise. I am not
                          > saying these
                          > > > things are always unlawful, but there is a fine line between
                          > maintaining a
                          > > > faithful witness, and compromising for the sake of the warm
                          > fuzzies,
                          > > > and the
                          > > > good food, that can lead to confusion on the part of those whom
                          > we
                          > > > trying to
                          > > > testify to.
                          > > >
                          > > > Just my thoughts.
                          > > >
                          > > > Ginny
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                          -
                          > -------
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                          > > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                          > > >
                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                          > on
                          > > > the web.
                          > > >
                          > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                        • Jasper
                          just can t answer a simple question, eh? -LOL Seriously, I appreciate receiving your response Jerry. In reviewing your questions, however, I am having
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 12, 2005
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                            just can't answer a simple question, eh?     -LOL
                             
                            Seriously, I appreciate receiving your response Jerry.  In reviewing your questions, however, I am having difficulty determining what your answer is.  "Is the issue for you more the time of year, or the commemoration itself? "   Or is that question an inappropriate approach to the issue?
                             
                            still wondering,
                            Jasper
                             

                            gmw <raging.calvinist@...> wrote:

                            Hey Jasper,

                            I guess my questions to your question would be,

                            1.  Does God command us to commemorate the incarnation of Messiah by
                            a special day at all, besides every single Lord's Day?  Related to
                            this question,

                            2.  How can we know if God is pleased with this commemoration?

                            3.  How are we commemorating this incarnation at the family
                            gathering?  Does it look just like X-mass, but in June?

                            Still looking forward to our cup of coffee,
                            gmw.

                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jasper
                            <jasperh98@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Folks.   I'd like to ask for purposes of clarification:    What
                            if a family gathering was to be held, say, in late June to
                            commemorate the incarnation of the Messiah.  Would this be acceptable
                            or unacceptable?   Is the issue for you more the time of year, or the
                            commemoration itself?
                            >   
                            >   Interesting discussion.
                            >   
                            >   Jasper


                            >If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat and
                            > drink and enjoy my family.  If, however, I'm invited to a "Christmas
                            > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline.

                            Ben and GMW,

                            We have struggled with this over the years too.  At first we made if clear
                            to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas celebration.  So
                            they modified their terminology and asked us to just come for a family meal.
                            We did that the first year, and maybe two, but soon realized that it was
                            simply quibbling over semantics.  It was still a "Christmas dinner" to them
                            in their hearts, though they were changing the name to make it less
                            offensive to us.  Their whole reason for getting together at that particular
                            time, (even if they moved the dinner away from the 25th and had it on the
                            23rd or 26th), was still for the purpose of celebrating Christmas together
                            with the family.  It made our testimony less effective by attending
                            , I
                            believe, and it had the appearance of a compromise.  I am not saying these
                            things are always unlawful, but there is a fine line between maintaining a
                            faithful witness, and compromising for the sake of the warm fuzzies, and the
                            good food, that can lead to confusion on the part of those whom we trying to
                            testify to.

                            Just my thoughts.

                            Ginny




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                          • gmw
                            Oh! I was addressing the would this be acceptable or unacceptable? And my questions were not intended to be an answer, but stuff I would need to know
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 12, 2005
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                              Oh! I was addressing the "would this be acceptable or
                              unacceptable?" And my questions were not intended to be an answer,
                              but stuff I would need to know before I could decide, because (to
                              address your second question), the issue is not eating dinner,
                              thinking about the incarnation, the time of year, or anything like
                              that, but the issue is whether or not we are observing a humanly
                              devised holy day, and that in the name of Christ to boot.

                              Does that help at all?
                              lol.
                              gmw.

                              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jasper
                              <jasperh98@y...> wrote:
                              >
                              > just can't answer a simple question, eh? -LOL
                              >
                              > Seriously, I appreciate receiving your response Jerry. In
                              reviewing your questions, however, I am having difficulty determining
                              what your answer is. "Is the issue for you more the time of year, or
                              the commemoration itself? " Or is that question an inappropriate
                              approach to the issue?
                              >
                              > still wondering,
                              > Jasper
                              >
                              >
                              > gmw <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hey Jasper,
                              >
                              > I guess my questions to your question would be,
                              >
                              > 1. Does God command us to commemorate the incarnation of Messiah
                              by
                              > a special day at all, besides every single Lord's Day? Related to
                              > this question,
                              >
                              > 2. How can we know if God is pleased with this commemoration?
                              >
                              > 3. How are we commemorating this incarnation at the family
                              > gathering? Does it look just like X-mass, but in June?
                              >
                              > Still looking forward to our cup of coffee,
                              > gmw.
                              >
                              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jasper
                              > <jasperh98@y...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Hi Folks. I'd like to ask for purposes of clarification:
                              What
                              > if a family gathering was to be held, say, in late June to
                              > commemorate the incarnation of the Messiah. Would this be
                              acceptable
                              > or unacceptable? Is the issue for you more the time of year, or
                              the
                              > commemoration itself?
                              > >
                              > > Interesting discussion.
                              > >
                              > > Jasper
                              >
                              >
                              > >If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat and
                              > > drink and enjoy my family. If, however, I'm invited to
                              a "Christmas
                              > > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline.
                              >
                              > Ben and GMW,
                              >
                              > We have struggled with this over the years too. At first we made
                              if clear
                              > to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas
                              celebration. So
                              > they modified their terminology and asked us to just come for a
                              family meal.
                              > We did that the first year, and maybe two, but soon realized that
                              it was
                              > simply quibbling over semantics. It was still a "Christmas dinner"
                              to them
                              > in their hearts, though they were changing the name to make it less
                              > offensive to us. Their whole reason for getting together at that
                              particular
                              > time, (even if they moved the dinner away from the 25th and had it
                              on the
                              > 23rd or 26th), was still for the purpose of celebrating Christmas
                              together
                              > with the family. It made our testimony less effective by
                              attending, I
                              > believe, and it had the appearance of a compromise. I am not
                              saying these
                              > things are always unlawful, but there is a fine line between
                              maintaining a
                              > faithful witness, and compromising for the sake of the warm
                              fuzzies, and the
                              > good food, that can lead to confusion on the part of those whom we
                              trying to
                              > testify to.
                              >
                              > Just my thoughts.
                              >
                              > Ginny
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > SPONSORED LINKS
                              > True religion Reformed church Theology
                              >
                              > ---------------------------------
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                              >
                              >
                              > Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the web.
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
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                              Service.
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                              >
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                            • Jasper
                              Does that help at all? Yup. I think I see why you asked your questions. Admittedly, I can be quite dense at times. Do you folks observe or celebrate your
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 12, 2005
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                                "Does that help at all?"
                                 
                                Yup.   I think I see why you asked your questions.  Admittedly, I can be quite dense at times.
                                 
                                Do you folks observe or celebrate your childrens' birthdays?   I don't mean this as a leading question...as you know some religious groups ban such observances.
                                 
                                Jasper


                                gmw <raging.calvinist@...> wrote:

                                Oh!  I was addressing the "would this be acceptable or
                                unacceptable?"  And my questions were not intended to be an answer,
                                but stuff I would need to know before I could decide, because (to
                                address your second question), the issue is not eating dinner,
                                thinking about the incarnation, the time of year, or anything like
                                that, but the issue is whether or not we are observing a humanly
                                devised holy day, and that in the name of Christ to boot.

                                Does that help at all?
                                lol.
                                gmw.

                                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jasper
                                <jasperh98@y...> wrote:
                                >
                                > just can't answer a simple question, eh?     -LOL
                                >   
                                >   Seriously, I appreciate receiving your response Jerry.  In
                                reviewing your questions, however, I am having difficulty determining
                                what your answer is.  "Is the issue for you more the time of year, or
                                the commemoration itself? "   Or is that question an inappropriate
                                approach to the issue?
                                >   
                                >   still wondering,
                                >   Jasper
                                >   
                                >  
                                > gmw <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                >  
                                > Hey Jasper,
                                >
                                > I guess my questions to your question would be,
                                >
                                > 1.  Does God command us to commemorate the incarnation of Messiah
                                by
                                > a special day at all, besides every single Lord's Day?  Related to
                                > this question,
                                >
                                > 2.  How can we know if God is pleased with this commemoration?
                                >
                                > 3.  How are we commemorating this incarnation at the family
                                > gathering?  Does it look just like X-mass, but in June?
                                >
                                > Still looking forward to our cup of coffee,
                                > gmw.
                                >
                                > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jasper
                                > <jasperh98@y...> wrote:
                                > >
                                > > Hi Folks.   I'd like to ask for purposes of clarification:   
                                What
                                > if a family gathering was to be held, say, in late June to
                                > commemorate the incarnation of the Messiah.  Would this be
                                acceptable
                                > or unacceptable?   Is the issue for you more the time of year, or
                                the
                                > commemoration itself?
                                > >   
                                > >   Interesting discussion.
                                > >   
                                > >   Jasper
                                >
                                >
                                > >If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat and
                                > > drink and enjoy my family.  If, however, I'm invited to
                                a "Christmas
                                > > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline.
                                >
                                > Ben and GMW,
                                >
                                > We have struggled with this over the years too.  At first we made
                                if clear
                                > to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas
                                celebration.  So
                                > they modified their terminology and asked us to just come for a
                                family meal.
                                > We did that the first year, and maybe two, but soon realized that
                                it was
                                > simply quibbling over semantics.  It was still a "Christmas dinner"
                                to them
                                > in their hearts, though they were changing the name to make it less
                                > offensive to us.  Their whole reason for getting together at that
                                particular
                                > time, (even if they moved the dinner away from the 25th and had it
                                on the
                                > 23rd or 26th), was still for the purpose of celebrating Christmas
                                together
                                > with the family.  It made our testimony less effective by
                                attending, I
                                > believe, and it had the appearance of a compromise.  I am not
                                saying these
                                > things are always unlawful, but there is a fine line between
                                maintaining a
                                > faithful witness, and compromising for the sake of the warm
                                fuzzies, and the
                                > good food, that can lead to confusion on the part of those whom we
                                trying to
                                > testify to.
                                >
                                > Just my thoughts.
                                >
                                > Ginny
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >   SPONSORED LINKS
                                >         True religion   Reformed church   Theology
                                >    
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                                >    
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                              • gmw
                                We do, I don t know about all Covies though. Not quite the same thing as a holy day. That, I believe, is more of a civil day. gmw.
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 12, 2005
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                                  We do, I don't know about all Covies though. Not quite the same thing
                                  as a "holy day." That, I believe, is more of a civil day.

                                  gmw.

                                  Jasper wrote:

                                  > "Does that help at all?"
                                  >
                                  > Yup. I think I see why you asked your questions. Admittedly, I can
                                  > be quite dense at times.
                                  >
                                  > Do you folks observe or celebrate your childrens' birthdays? I don't
                                  > mean this as a leading question...as you know some religious groups
                                  > ban such observances.
                                  >
                                  > Jasper
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > */gmw <raging.calvinist@...>/* wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Oh! I was addressing the "would this be acceptable or
                                  > unacceptable?" And my questions were not intended to be an answer,
                                  > but stuff I would need to know before I could decide, because (to
                                  > address your second question), the issue is not eating dinner,
                                  > thinking about the incarnation, the time of year, or anything like
                                  > that, but the issue is whether or not we are observing a humanly
                                  > devised holy day, and that in the name of Christ to boot.
                                  >
                                  > Does that help at all?
                                  > lol.
                                  > gmw.
                                  >
                                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jasper
                                  > <jasperh98@y...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > just can't answer a simple question, eh? -LOL
                                  > >
                                  > > Seriously, I appreciate receiving your response Jerry. In
                                  > reviewing your questions, however, I am having difficulty determining
                                  > what your answer is. "Is the issue for you more the time of year, or
                                  > the commemoration itself? " Or is that question an inappropriate
                                  > approach to the issue?
                                  > >
                                  > > still wondering,
                                  > > Jasper
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > gmw <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Hey Jasper,
                                  > >
                                  > > I guess my questions to your question would be,
                                  > >
                                  > > 1. Does God command us to commemorate the incarnation of Messiah
                                  > by
                                  > > a special day at all, besides every single Lord's Day? Related to
                                  > > this question,
                                  > >
                                  > > 2. How can we know if God is pleased with this commemoration?
                                  > >
                                  > > 3. How are we commemorating this incarnation at the family
                                  > > gathering? Does it look just like X-mass, but in June?
                                  > >
                                  > > Still looking forward to our cup of coffee,
                                  > > gmw.
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jasper
                                  > > <jasperh98@y...> wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Hi Folks. I'd like to ask for purposes of clarification:
                                  > What
                                  > > if a family gathering was to be held, say, in late June to
                                  > > commemorate the incarnation of the Messiah. Would this be
                                  > acceptable
                                  > > or unacceptable? Is the issue for you more the time of year, or
                                  > the
                                  > > commemoration itself?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Interesting discussion.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Jasper
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > >If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat and
                                  > > > drink and enjoy my family. If, however, I'm invited to
                                  > a "Christmas
                                  > > > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline.
                                  > >
                                  > > Ben and GMW,
                                  > >
                                  > > We have struggled with this over the years too. At first we made
                                  > if clear
                                  > > to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas
                                  > celebration. So
                                  > > they modified their terminology and asked us to just come for a
                                  > family meal.
                                  > > We did that the first year, and maybe two, but soon realized that
                                  > it was
                                  > > simply quibbling over semantics. It was still a "Christmas dinner"
                                  > to them
                                  > > in their hearts, though they were changing the name to make it less
                                  > > offensive to us. Their whole reason for getting together at that
                                  > particular
                                  > > time, (even if they moved the dinner away from the 25th and had it
                                  > on the
                                  > > 23rd or 26th), was still for the purpose of celebrating Christmas
                                  > together
                                  > > with the family. It made our testimony less effective by
                                  > attending, I
                                  > > believe, and it had the appearance of a compromise. I am not
                                  > saying these
                                  > > things are always unlawful, but there is a fine line between
                                  > maintaining a
                                  > > faithful witness, and compromising for the sake of the warm
                                  > fuzzies, and the
                                  > > good food, that can lead to confusion on the part of those whom we
                                  > trying to
                                  > > testify to.
                                  > >
                                  > > Just my thoughts.
                                  > >
                                  > > Ginny
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                  > > True religion Reformed church Theology
                                  > >
                                  > > ---------------------------------
                                  > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the web.
                                  > >
                                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                  > Service.
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                                  > > Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
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                                • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                                  So do we in the Albany RPNA congregation. B-days are not called by us as holy and set apart to God as Xmas and Easter are by the Protestant disciples of the
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 12, 2005
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                                    So do we in the Albany RPNA congregation. B-days are not called by
                                    us as "holy" and set apart to God as Xmas and Easter are by the
                                    Protestant disciples of the Roman Anti-Christ (that satanic pig).

                                    There is a distinction, as gmw points out, between civil and
                                    religious days.

                                    Hope that helps as well?

                                    Edgar


                                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                                    <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > We do, I don't know about all Covies though. Not quite the same
                                    thing
                                    > as a "holy day." That, I believe, is more of a civil day.
                                    >
                                    > gmw.
                                    >
                                    > Jasper wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > "Does that help at all?"
                                    > >
                                    > > Yup. I think I see why you asked your questions. Admittedly,
                                    I can
                                    > > be quite dense at times.
                                    > >
                                    > > Do you folks observe or celebrate your childrens' birthdays? I
                                    don't
                                    > > mean this as a leading question...as you know some religious
                                    groups
                                    > > ban such observances.
                                    > >
                                    > > Jasper
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > */gmw <raging.calvinist@v...>/* wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Oh! I was addressing the "would this be acceptable or
                                    > > unacceptable?" And my questions were not intended to be an
                                    answer,
                                    > > but stuff I would need to know before I could decide,
                                    because (to
                                    > > address your second question), the issue is not eating
                                    dinner,
                                    > > thinking about the incarnation, the time of year, or
                                    anything like
                                    > > that, but the issue is whether or not we are observing a
                                    humanly
                                    > > devised holy day, and that in the name of Christ to boot.
                                    > >
                                    > > Does that help at all?
                                    > > lol.
                                    > > gmw.
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jasper
                                    > > <jasperh98@y...> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > just can't answer a simple question, eh? -LOL
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Seriously, I appreciate receiving your response Jerry.
                                    In
                                    > > reviewing your questions, however, I am having difficulty
                                    determining
                                    > > what your answer is. "Is the issue for you more the time of
                                    year, or
                                    > > the commemoration itself? " Or is that question an
                                    inappropriate
                                    > > approach to the issue?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > still wondering,
                                    > > > Jasper
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > gmw <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Hey Jasper,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > I guess my questions to your question would be,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > 1. Does God command us to commemorate the incarnation of
                                    Messiah
                                    > > by
                                    > > > a special day at all, besides every single Lord's Day?
                                    Related to
                                    > > > this question,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > 2. How can we know if God is pleased with this
                                    commemoration?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > 3. How are we commemorating this incarnation at the family
                                    > > > gathering? Does it look just like X-mass, but in June?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Still looking forward to our cup of coffee,
                                    > > > gmw.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jasper
                                    > > > <jasperh98@y...> wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Hi Folks. I'd like to ask for purposes of
                                    clarification:
                                    > > What
                                    > > > if a family gathering was to be held, say, in late June to
                                    > > > commemorate the incarnation of the Messiah. Would this be
                                    > > acceptable
                                    > > > or unacceptable? Is the issue for you more the time of
                                    year, or
                                    > > the
                                    > > > commemoration itself?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Interesting discussion.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Jasper
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat
                                    and
                                    > > > > drink and enjoy my family. If, however, I'm invited to
                                    > > a "Christmas
                                    > > > > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Ben and GMW,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > We have struggled with this over the years too. At first
                                    we made
                                    > > if clear
                                    > > > to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas
                                    > > celebration. So
                                    > > > they modified their terminology and asked us to just come
                                    for a
                                    > > family meal.
                                    > > > We did that the first year, and maybe two, but soon
                                    realized that
                                    > > it was
                                    > > > simply quibbling over semantics. It was still
                                    a "Christmas dinner"
                                    > > to them
                                    > > > in their hearts, though they were changing the name to
                                    make it less
                                    > > > offensive to us. Their whole reason for getting together
                                    at that
                                    > > particular
                                    > > > time, (even if they moved the dinner away from the 25th
                                    and had it
                                    > > on the
                                    > > > 23rd or 26th), was still for the purpose of celebrating
                                    Christmas
                                    > > together
                                    > > > with the family. It made our testimony less effective by
                                    > > attending, I
                                    > > > believe, and it had the appearance of a compromise. I am
                                    not
                                    > > saying these
                                    > > > things are always unlawful, but there is a fine line
                                    between
                                    > > maintaining a
                                    > > > faithful witness, and compromising for the sake of the warm
                                    > > fuzzies, and the
                                    > > > good food, that can lead to confusion on the part of those
                                    whom we
                                    > > trying to
                                    > > > testify to.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Just my thoughts.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Ginny
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                    > > > True religion Reformed church Theology
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ---------------------------------
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                                    > > >
                                    > > > Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the
                                    web.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
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                                    > > Service.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
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                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > > Yahoo! Shopping
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                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                    > > True religion
                                    > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    t=ms&k=True+religion&w1=True+religion&w2=Reformed+church&w3=Theology&
                                    c=3&s=54&.sig=SOHXdZ-CR3OiXyEMUmYqyw>
                                    > > Reformed church
                                    > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    t=ms&k=Reformed+church&w1=True+religion&w2=Reformed+church&w3=Theolog
                                    y&c=3&s=54&.sig=el09INBmGQx3Rvs6aLGvvg>
                                    > > Theology
                                    > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    t=ms&k=Theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Reformed+church&w3=Theology&c=3&s
                                    =54&.sig=kODNWR3farjnEy6FTJcp3A>
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                                    > >
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                                    -------
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                                    > >
                                    > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                    > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                                    on
                                    > > the web.
                                    > >
                                    > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                    unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                    > >
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                                    > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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                                  • Jasper
                                    Thank you Jerry and Edgar! Jasper Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote: So do we in the Albany RPNA congregation. B-days are not called
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 14, 2005
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                                      Thank you Jerry and Edgar!
                                       
                                      Jasper

                                      "Edgar A. Ibarra Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@...> wrote:
                                      So do we in the Albany RPNA congregation.  B-days are not called by
                                      us as "holy" and set apart to God as Xmas and Easter are by the
                                      Protestant disciples of the Roman Anti-Christ (that satanic pig).

                                      There is a distinction, as gmw points out, between civil and
                                      religious days.

                                      Hope that helps as well?

                                      Edgar


                                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                                      <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > We do, I don't know about all Covies though.  Not quite the same
                                      thing
                                      > as a "holy day."  That, I believe, is more of a civil day.
                                      >
                                      > gmw.
                                      >
                                      > Jasper wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > "Does that help at all?"
                                      > > 
                                      > > Yup.   I think I see why you asked your questions.  Admittedly,
                                      I can
                                      > > be quite dense at times.
                                      > > 
                                      > > Do you folks observe or celebrate your childrens' birthdays?   I
                                      don't
                                      > > mean this as a leading question...as you know some religious
                                      groups
                                      > > ban such observances.
                                      > > 
                                      > > Jasper
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > */gmw <raging.calvinist@v...>/* wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >     Oh!  I was addressing the "would this be acceptable or
                                      > >     unacceptable?"  And my questions were not intended to be an
                                      answer,
                                      > >     but stuff I would need to know before I could decide,
                                      because (to
                                      > >     address your second question), the issue is not eating
                                      dinner,
                                      > >     thinking about the incarnation, the time of year, or
                                      anything like
                                      > >     that, but the issue is whether or not we are observing a
                                      humanly
                                      > >     devised holy day, and that in the name of Christ to boot.
                                      > >
                                      > >     Does that help at all?
                                      > >     lol.
                                      > >     gmw.
                                      > >
                                      > >     --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jasper
                                      > >     <jasperh98@y...> wrote:
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     > just can't answer a simple question, eh?     -LOL
                                      > >     >  
                                      > >     >   Seriously, I appreciate receiving your response Jerry. 
                                      In
                                      > >     reviewing your questions, however, I am having difficulty
                                      determining
                                      > >     what your answer is.  "Is the issue for you more the time of
                                      year, or
                                      > >     the commemoration itself? "   Or is that question an
                                      inappropriate
                                      > >     approach to the issue?
                                      > >     >  
                                      > >     >   still wondering,
                                      > >     >   Jasper
                                      > >     >  
                                      > >     > 
                                      > >     > gmw <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                      > >     > 
                                      > >     > Hey Jasper,
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     > I guess my questions to your question would be,
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     > 1.  Does God command us to commemorate the incarnation of
                                      Messiah
                                      > >     by
                                      > >     > a special day at all, besides every single Lord's Day? 
                                      Related to
                                      > >     > this question,
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     > 2.  How can we know if God is pleased with this
                                      commemoration?
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     > 3.  How are we commemorating this incarnation at the family
                                      > >     > gathering?  Does it look just like X-mass, but in June?
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     > Still looking forward to our cup of coffee,
                                      > >     > gmw.
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jasper
                                      > >     > <jasperh98@y...> wrote:
                                      > >     > >
                                      > >     > > Hi Folks.   I'd like to ask for purposes of
                                      clarification:  
                                      > >     What
                                      > >     > if a family gathering was to be held, say, in late June to
                                      > >     > commemorate the incarnation of the Messiah.  Would this be
                                      > >     acceptable
                                      > >     > or unacceptable?   Is the issue for you more the time of
                                      year, or
                                      > >     the
                                      > >     > commemoration itself?
                                      > >     > >  
                                      > >     > >   Interesting discussion.
                                      > >     > >  
                                      > >     > >   Jasper
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     > >If invited to a "family get together" I will go and eat
                                      and
                                      > >     > > drink and enjoy my family.  If, however, I'm invited to
                                      > >     a "Christmas
                                      > >     > > party" or "Christmas dinner," I will decline.
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     > Ben and GMW,
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     > We have struggled with this over the years too.  At first
                                      we made
                                      > >     if clear
                                      > >     > to our family that we were opposed to any type of Christmas
                                      > >     celebration.  So
                                      > >     > they modified their terminology and asked us to just come
                                      for a
                                      > >     family meal.
                                      > >     > We did that the first year, and maybe two, but soon
                                      realized that
                                      > >     it was
                                      > >     > simply quibbling over semantics.  It was still
                                      a "Christmas dinner"
                                      > >     to them
                                      > >     > in their hearts, though they were changing the name to
                                      make it less
                                      > >     > offensive to us.  Their whole reason for getting together
                                      at that
                                      > >     particular
                                      > >     > time, (even if they moved the dinner away from the 25th
                                      and had it
                                      > >     on the
                                      > >     > 23rd or 26th), was still for the purpose of celebrating
                                      Christmas
                                      > >     together
                                      > >     > with the family.  It made our testimony less effective by
                                      > >     attending, I
                                      > >     > believe, and it had the appearance of a compromise.  I am
                                      not
                                      > >     saying these
                                      > >     > things are always unlawful, but there is a fine line
                                      between
                                      > >     maintaining a
                                      > >     > faithful witness, and compromising for the sake of the warm
                                      > >     fuzzies, and the
                                      > >     > good food, that can lead to confusion on the part of those
                                      whom we
                                      > >     trying to
                                      > >     > testify to.
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     > Just my thoughts.
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     > Ginny
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     >   SPONSORED LINKS
                                      > >     >         True religion   Reformed church   Theology
                                      > >     >   
                                      > >     > ---------------------------------
                                      > >     >   YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     >   
                                      > >     >     Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the
                                      web.
                                      > >     >   
                                      > >     >     To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > >     >  covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >     >   
                                      > >     >     Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                      Terms of
                                      > >     Service.
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     >   
                                      > >     > ---------------------------------
                                      > >     > 
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     > 
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     >
                                      > >     >                 
                                      > >     > ---------------------------------
                                      > >     > Yahoo! Shopping
                                      > >     >  Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
                                      > >     >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                      -------
                                      > > Yahoo! Shopping
                                      > > Find Great Deals on Holiday Gifts at Yahoo! Shopping
                                      > >
                                      <http://us.rd.yahoo.com/mail_us/footer/shopping/*http://shopping.yaho
                                      o.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTE2bzVzaHJtBF9TAzk1OTQ5NjM2BHNlYwNtYWlsdGFnBHNsawNob
                                      2xpZGF5LTA1%20>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                      > > True religion
                                      > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                      t=ms&k=True+religion&w1=True+religion&w2=Reformed+church&w3=Theology&
                                      c=3&s=54&.sig=SOHXdZ-CR3OiXyEMUmYqyw>
                                      > >       Reformed church
                                      > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                      t=ms&k=Reformed+church&w1=True+religion&w2=Reformed+church&w3=Theolog
                                      y&c=3&s=54&.sig=el09INBmGQx3Rvs6aLGvvg>
                                      > >       Theology
                                      > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                      t=ms&k=Theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Reformed+church&w3=Theology&c=3&s
                                      =54&.sig=kODNWR3farjnEy6FTJcp3A>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                      -------
                                      > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                      > >
                                      > >     *  Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                      > >       <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                                      on
                                      > >       the web.
                                      > >       
                                      > >     *  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > >        covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > >       <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                      unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                      > >       
                                      > >     *  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                      of
                                      > >       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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                                      -------
                                      > >
                                      >






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                                    • Deej
                                      ... wrote: Well this the first year I not done the X-mass thing at all. My family been fine, they are all unbelievers, the only folks
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 16, 2005
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                                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                                        <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:

                                        Well this the first year I not done the X-mass thing at all. My family
                                        been fine, they are all unbelievers, the only folks to take umbridge
                                        to a larger or smaller degree are Christian friends. My life and
                                        circumstances make it a sure dunk, to be a one woman band as far
                                        Christianity goes for the most part! If not for online folks that
                                        would be more true than it even is. But the whole X-mass thing this
                                        year put me just that little bit further outside than even I thought
                                        possible. Hey ho. I guess I don't understand really how truth can
                                        cause division amongst the brethren. If you high handed about it then
                                        yes I could see, but not when you just say you not doing the x-mass
                                        thing and if they ask why then explain.

                                        But I shall probably have my dinner in bed, which probably be a bacon
                                        buttie! And I would invite you too, Jerry and Mrs W, but, the
                                        distance make it very hard to cook the bacon just right for your
                                        arrival what with plane delays and all!! ;-)

                                        ~Deejay
                                        >
                                        > For us it doesn't much matter anyway, as people eventually just
                                        stopped
                                        > inviting us altogether!
                                        >
                                        > gmw.
                                        >
                                        > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • trygvesson@aol.com
                                        In a message dated 12/16/2005 10:19:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dying4God@googlemail.com writes: But I shall probably have my dinner in bed, which probably
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Dec 16, 2005
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                                          In a message dated 12/16/2005 10:19:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dying4God@... writes:
                                          "But I shall probably have my dinner in bed, which probably be a bacon buttie!"
                                           
                                          I thought I had heard of most all variations of comfort food, but what, pray tell, is a "bacon buttie?"
                                           
                                          ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                          Christopher Coombes


                                                                                                          _
                                                                                                         / )
                                                                                       (\__/)         ( (
                                                                                        )    (           ) )
                                                                                     ={      }=       / /
                                                                                        )     `-------/ /
                                                                                       (               /
                                                                                        \              |
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                                                                                          (__/       ) )
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                                        • Crazy Calvinist
                                          Oh, sorry. Not sure its what I d call comfort food just a regular pig (bacon) sandwich ~Deejay trygvesson@aol.com wrote: In a message dated 12/16/2005
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Dec 16, 2005
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                                            Oh,  sorry. Not sure its what I'd call "comfort food"  just a regular pig (bacon) sandwich
                                             
                                            ~Deejay
                                            trygvesson@... wrote:
                                            In a message dated 12/16/2005 10:19:00 PM Eastern Standard Time, Dying4God@... writes:
                                             
                                             
                                            I thought I had heard of most all variations of comfort food, but what, pray tell, is a "bacon buttie?"
                                             
                                            ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                            Christopher Coombes


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