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Mayflower Compact - A Covenant

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  • nodelink7
    Imperfect thought the Separatist and Anglican settlers at Plymouth may have been, it s remarkable that they remain in remembrance each year when the USA
    Message 1 of 14 , Nov 25, 2005
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      Imperfect thought the Separatist and Anglican settlers at Plymouth may
      have been, it's remarkable that they remain in remembrance each year
      when the USA observes its Thanksgiving Day. There were native
      Americans here earlier and earlier European settlements including St.
      Augustine (Florida) and Jamestown (Virginia) but it is the early
      settlers at Plymouth who are kept most in remembrance.

      These travellers to Cape Cod (They made their first landing at Cape
      Code but soon afterwards became settlers at Plymouth.) made a compact
      / covenant and constituted their civil government by it. The first
      two purposes of their voyage from England to Massachusetts (then
      considered to be northern Virginia) were the Glory of God and
      Advancement of the Christian Faith. They covenanted themselves and
      formed their civil government for the furtherance of these purposes.

      I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at Plymouth
      (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke heart-felt
      thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as yesterday when
      Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing and
      providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native American was
      there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with the
      Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the Mayflower
      Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right. Blessings from
      it continue to this day.

      From the Mayflower Compact:

      "...Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the
      Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage to
      plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by these
      presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of
      another, COVENANT and combine ourselves together into a civil Body
      Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and Furtherance of
      the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and
      frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions and
      Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and
      convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we promise
      all due submission and obedience..."

      (http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/mayflower.htm)

      GG
    • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
      ... from ... The above reminded me of an event that occurred while I was at California State University of Fullerton taking Latin American Studies. In this
      Message 2 of 14 , Nov 25, 2005
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        > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at Plymouth
        > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke heart-felt
        > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as yesterday when
        > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing and
        > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native American was
        > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with the
        > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the Mayflower
        > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right. Blessings
        from
        > it continue to this day.

        The above reminded me of an event that occurred while I was at
        California State University of Fullerton taking Latin American
        Studies. In this class, we were "blessed" with a wacky professor
        who lacked the erudition to be teaching at a University. This guy,
        in his 60's I think, one day made the statement in class, which was
        predominately Latino, and he was too, that when the Puritans landed
        at Cape Cod they refused to intermarry with the Indigenous folk and
        that is why they brought their own women and called themselves
        Puritans. Now, wait before you react it gets worse. This
        knucklehead Professor then said they were bigots and racists because
        of this and that is why they were called Puritans, you see to keep
        their blood pure! Now, I was not sure how to react at first whether
        to laugh at his idiotic statement or to get angry for
        misrepresenting the Puritans and what that term meant. He then went
        on to say he was writing a book about this! Right when I was going
        to respond, another student responded. Now I remind you that most
        Latino university students are politcally left leaning in Southern
        California. So this astute student asked him if the Spainards
        intermixing with the indigenous people was a sign of not being
        racists on their part? This professor then fell, hook, line, and
        sinker!! He said YES! Oh, boy, I thought the class was going to
        lynch him right then and there, it almost turned violent literally.

        Why? Well you see the Spainards did not intermix with the
        indigenous because the latter wanted to. The Spaniards raped the
        women, murdered the husbands, and ensalved the entire population and
        then vast cultures and civilizations were methodically wiped out by
        the Spainards via war & biological warfare (small pox). The asutute
        and learned "Latino" knows this and for us that embrace our
        indigenous heritage and culture we ensure that the Spainish
        conquerors are not ennobled or glorified. Sure they wiped out pagan
        religion that included human sacrifice and cannabalism and sure I
        know that God used Spain to bring His judgment on them. As God used
        the Assyrians against Israel and then judged Assyria for doing what
        they did to Israel, so God I discern from reading the history of the
        period did the same on Spain. If it were not for the religious
        beliefs of the Mexicas (what many call Aztecs) and their religious
        presupposition to warfare, then Cortes and his lackeys would have
        been wiped out and Mexico would not have been conquered so easily.
        And yes, Spain replaced one form of idolatry with another and the
        genocide against the indigenous continues to this day, both
        physically and psychologically. While it is true that they
        practiced human sacrifice, it is equally true that the Spanish
        conquest ushered in the largest and most horrible genocide ever
        recorded in history. It was larger than the holocaust against the
        Jews of WWII as hundreds of millions were wiped out. This was a
        sacrifice of humans on the part of the Spainish in the name of the
        Catholic Kings, the Pope, and Jesus Christ. Hence the barrier to
        the Gospel among the younger educated Latinos in the USA.

        So back to my story. After several minutes of shouting at the
        prof. on the part of the students and several adjectives in front of
        this guy's name, everyone settled down. At which point, a student
        said, "then praise God for the Puritans for NOT raping and murdering
        the Indians"! I then clarified to everyone why the Puritans were
        named Puritans and what that meant. I also told them about the
        evangelistic method of the Puritans, of preaching and teaching and
        NOT of raping and killing in the name of God. The students actually
        enjoyed this and were interested on what I had said. The Professor
        was ignored for the rest of the time and we had a good time
        conversing about the Puritans and what they held to.

        All this to say, that, we must always ensure that when we are
        proclaiming the Gospel, especially to those not part of one's
        culture, that the Gospel must be presented in such a way that the
        culture of the presenter is NOT brought across as superior than that
        of the listener nor that the Gospel is a means to have one's culture
        conqueror that of the other. In all reality, everyone's culture
        should be molded and shaped by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and in
        that sense, yes it should conquer the culture of every civilization
        in the world. Sadly that is not the case today, even of the United
        States of America, where pluralism is the staple of Christian
        churches and all things American. It is a sad state of affairs when
        two "ethnic" groups that live in the same nation and speak the very
        same language, when both are professing Christians, are segregated
        in "white" and "black" churches. The Gospel is supposed to
        supersede that and cause all sides to be color blind and not look on
        the other as lighter or darker, but as a fellow brother in Jesus
        Christ (when that is the case) and willing to worship in the same
        meeting place, have true Christian fellowship without taking pot
        shoots at one another's culture, intermarry, and etc. Else, it will
        be hard to convince others that Christianity isn't the "white man's
        religion".

        I personnally love to learn of different cultures and respect
        that which I find wholesome in other cultures. It is fascinating
        what isolated people groups, post flood, accomplished across the
        globe. The ingenuity and accomplishments of almost every culture is
        a testimony of God's image in man, although marred, and the law of
        nature and of His commandments can be seen if looked at closely.

        Your Mexica brother in Christ,

        Edgar Ibarra

        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "nodelink7"
        <gjgriff@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Imperfect thought the Separatist and Anglican settlers at Plymouth
        may
        > have been, it's remarkable that they remain in remembrance each
        year
        > when the USA observes its Thanksgiving Day. There were native
        > Americans here earlier and earlier European settlements including
        St.
        > Augustine (Florida) and Jamestown (Virginia) but it is the early
        > settlers at Plymouth who are kept most in remembrance.
        >
        > These travellers to Cape Cod (They made their first landing at Cape
        > Code but soon afterwards became settlers at Plymouth.) made a
        compact
        > / covenant and constituted their civil government by it. The first
        > two purposes of their voyage from England to Massachusetts (then
        > considered to be northern Virginia) were the Glory of God and
        > Advancement of the Christian Faith. They covenanted themselves and
        > formed their civil government for the furtherance of these
        purposes.
        >
        > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at Plymouth
        > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke heart-felt
        > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as yesterday when
        > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing and
        > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native American was
        > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with the
        > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the Mayflower
        > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right. Blessings
        from
        > it continue to this day.
        >
        > From the Mayflower Compact:
        >
        > "...Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the
        > Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage
        to
        > plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by
        these
        > presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of
        > another, COVENANT and combine ourselves together into a civil Body
        > Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and
        Furtherance of
        > the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and
        > frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions
        and
        > Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and
        > convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we
        promise
        > all due submission and obedience..."
        >
        > (http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/mayflower.htm)
        >
        > GG
        >
      • Whit
        That professor is hilarious but saddening with regards to Puritan. For Spanish class, I did a term paper on the spread of Christianity in the New World. It
        Message 3 of 14 , Nov 26, 2005
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          That professor is hilarious but saddening with regards to Puritan.

          For Spanish class, I did a term paper on the spread of Christianity
          in the New World. It was when I was far less Reformed than I am
          now. However, I still recall that the Spaniards usurped the
          Spirit's role and forced the Gospel on the indigenous people using
          various forms of coercion instead of sharing the Gospel and letting
          the Spirit move on their hearts.

          I long for the day when the title "Reyes Catolicos" of SS.MM. Los
          Reyes (currently, Don Juan Carlos I and Doña Sofia) is dropped and a
          Protestant line of Kings fear God, rule according to His
          commandments, and help establish the true Christian religion in
          España.

          Whit

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
          Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
          >
          > > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at Plymouth
          > > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke heart-
          felt
          > > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as yesterday
          when
          > > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing and
          > > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native American
          was
          > > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with the
          > > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the Mayflower
          > > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right. Blessings
          > from
          > > it continue to this day.
          >
          > The above reminded me of an event that occurred while I was at
          > California State University of Fullerton taking Latin American
          > Studies. In this class, we were "blessed" with a wacky professor
          > who lacked the erudition to be teaching at a University. This
          guy,
          > in his 60's I think, one day made the statement in class, which
          was
          > predominately Latino, and he was too, that when the Puritans
          landed
          > at Cape Cod they refused to intermarry with the Indigenous folk
          and
          > that is why they brought their own women and called themselves
          > Puritans. Now, wait before you react it gets worse. This
          > knucklehead Professor then said they were bigots and racists
          because
          > of this and that is why they were called Puritans, you see to keep
          > their blood pure! Now, I was not sure how to react at first
          whether
          > to laugh at his idiotic statement or to get angry for
          > misrepresenting the Puritans and what that term meant. He then
          went
          > on to say he was writing a book about this! Right when I was
          going
          > to respond, another student responded. Now I remind you that most
          > Latino university students are politcally left leaning in Southern
          > California. So this astute student asked him if the Spainards
          > intermixing with the indigenous people was a sign of not being
          > racists on their part? This professor then fell, hook, line, and
          > sinker!! He said YES! Oh, boy, I thought the class was going to
          > lynch him right then and there, it almost turned violent literally.
          >
          > Why? Well you see the Spainards did not intermix with the
          > indigenous because the latter wanted to. The Spaniards raped the
          > women, murdered the husbands, and ensalved the entire population
          and
          > then vast cultures and civilizations were methodically wiped out
          by
          > the Spainards via war & biological warfare (small pox). The
          asutute
          > and learned "Latino" knows this and for us that embrace our
          > indigenous heritage and culture we ensure that the Spainish
          > conquerors are not ennobled or glorified. Sure they wiped out
          pagan
          > religion that included human sacrifice and cannabalism and sure I
          > know that God used Spain to bring His judgment on them. As God
          used
          > the Assyrians against Israel and then judged Assyria for doing
          what
          > they did to Israel, so God I discern from reading the history of
          the
          > period did the same on Spain. If it were not for the religious
          > beliefs of the Mexicas (what many call Aztecs) and their religious
          > presupposition to warfare, then Cortes and his lackeys would have
          > been wiped out and Mexico would not have been conquered so easily.
          > And yes, Spain replaced one form of idolatry with another and the
          > genocide against the indigenous continues to this day, both
          > physically and psychologically. While it is true that they
          > practiced human sacrifice, it is equally true that the Spanish
          > conquest ushered in the largest and most horrible genocide ever
          > recorded in history. It was larger than the holocaust against the
          > Jews of WWII as hundreds of millions were wiped out. This was a
          > sacrifice of humans on the part of the Spainish in the name of the
          > Catholic Kings, the Pope, and Jesus Christ. Hence the barrier to
          > the Gospel among the younger educated Latinos in the USA.
          >
          > So back to my story. After several minutes of shouting at the
          > prof. on the part of the students and several adjectives in front
          of
          > this guy's name, everyone settled down. At which point, a student
          > said, "then praise God for the Puritans for NOT raping and
          murdering
          > the Indians"! I then clarified to everyone why the Puritans were
          > named Puritans and what that meant. I also told them about the
          > evangelistic method of the Puritans, of preaching and teaching and
          > NOT of raping and killing in the name of God. The students
          actually
          > enjoyed this and were interested on what I had said. The
          Professor
          > was ignored for the rest of the time and we had a good time
          > conversing about the Puritans and what they held to.
          >
          > All this to say, that, we must always ensure that when we are
          > proclaiming the Gospel, especially to those not part of one's
          > culture, that the Gospel must be presented in such a way that the
          > culture of the presenter is NOT brought across as superior than
          that
          > of the listener nor that the Gospel is a means to have one's
          culture
          > conqueror that of the other. In all reality, everyone's culture
          > should be molded and shaped by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and in
          > that sense, yes it should conquer the culture of every
          civilization
          > in the world. Sadly that is not the case today, even of the
          United
          > States of America, where pluralism is the staple of Christian
          > churches and all things American. It is a sad state of affairs
          when
          > two "ethnic" groups that live in the same nation and speak the
          very
          > same language, when both are professing Christians, are segregated
          > in "white" and "black" churches. The Gospel is supposed to
          > supersede that and cause all sides to be color blind and not look
          on
          > the other as lighter or darker, but as a fellow brother in Jesus
          > Christ (when that is the case) and willing to worship in the same
          > meeting place, have true Christian fellowship without taking pot
          > shoots at one another's culture, intermarry, and etc. Else, it
          will
          > be hard to convince others that Christianity isn't the "white
          man's
          > religion".
          >
          > I personnally love to learn of different cultures and respect
          > that which I find wholesome in other cultures. It is fascinating
          > what isolated people groups, post flood, accomplished across the
          > globe. The ingenuity and accomplishments of almost every culture
          is
          > a testimony of God's image in man, although marred, and the law of
          > nature and of His commandments can be seen if looked at closely.
          >
          > Your Mexica brother in Christ,
          >
          > Edgar Ibarra
          >
          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "nodelink7"
          > <gjgriff@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > Imperfect thought the Separatist and Anglican settlers at
          Plymouth
          > may
          > > have been, it's remarkable that they remain in remembrance each
          > year
          > > when the USA observes its Thanksgiving Day. There were native
          > > Americans here earlier and earlier European settlements
          including
          > St.
          > > Augustine (Florida) and Jamestown (Virginia) but it is the early
          > > settlers at Plymouth who are kept most in remembrance.
          > >
          > > These travellers to Cape Cod (They made their first landing at
          Cape
          > > Code but soon afterwards became settlers at Plymouth.) made a
          > compact
          > > / covenant and constituted their civil government by it. The
          first
          > > two purposes of their voyage from England to Massachusetts (then
          > > considered to be northern Virginia) were the Glory of God and
          > > Advancement of the Christian Faith. They covenanted themselves
          and
          > > formed their civil government for the furtherance of these
          > purposes.
          > >
          > > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at Plymouth
          > > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke heart-
          felt
          > > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as yesterday
          when
          > > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing and
          > > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native American
          was
          > > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with the
          > > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the Mayflower
          > > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right. Blessings
          > from
          > > it continue to this day.
          > >
          > > From the Mayflower Compact:
          > >
          > > "...Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of
          the
          > > Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a
          voyage
          > to
          > > plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by
          > these
          > > presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of
          > > another, COVENANT and combine ourselves together into a civil
          Body
          > > Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and
          > Furtherance of
          > > the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute,
          and
          > > frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions
          > and
          > > Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and
          > > convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we
          > promise
          > > all due submission and obedience..."
          > >
          > >
          (http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/mayflower.htm)
          > >
          > > GG
          > >
          >
        • Fred blahous
          G day brother. Sqanto had a very sad life indeed. He left his tribe to become a theatre exhibit in England, and was later captured by a Spanish gallon, after
          Message 4 of 14 , Nov 30, 2005
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            G'day brother.

            Sqanto had a very sad life indeed. He left his tribe to become a
            theatre exhibit in England, and was later captured by a Spanish
            gallon, after which he made an RC profession. When he later went
            back to his own people he found the tribe no longer existed. Then he
            found another tribe to join, but was in fear of his life because of
            jealosy at his fast rise up the hierarchy of his new tribe. I hope
            things are better for him now.

            All the best,
            Fred.

            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "nodelink7"
            <gjgriff@y...> wrote:
            >
            > Imperfect thought the Separatist and Anglican settlers at Plymouth
            may
            > have been, it's remarkable that they remain in remembrance each
            year
            > when the USA observes its Thanksgiving Day. There were native
            > Americans here earlier and earlier European settlements including
            St.
            > Augustine (Florida) and Jamestown (Virginia) but it is the early
            > settlers at Plymouth who are kept most in remembrance.
            >
            > These travellers to Cape Cod (They made their first landing at Cape
            > Code but soon afterwards became settlers at Plymouth.) made a
            compact
            > / covenant and constituted their civil government by it. The first
            > two purposes of their voyage from England to Massachusetts (then
            > considered to be northern Virginia) were the Glory of God and
            > Advancement of the Christian Faith. They covenanted themselves and
            > formed their civil government for the furtherance of these
            purposes.
            >
            > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at Plymouth
            > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke heart-felt
            > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as yesterday when
            > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing and
            > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native American was
            > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with the
            > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the Mayflower
            > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right. Blessings
            from
            > it continue to this day.
            >
            > From the Mayflower Compact:
            >
            > "...Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of the
            > Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a voyage
            to
            > plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by
            these
            > presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of
            > another, COVENANT and combine ourselves together into a civil Body
            > Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and
            Furtherance of
            > the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute, and
            > frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions
            and
            > Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and
            > convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we
            promise
            > all due submission and obedience..."
            >
            > (http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/mayflower.htm)
            >
            > GG
            >
          • Fred blahous
            G day again, Edgar. This story is absolutely priceless. I would have loved to see the professors face after being ignored the whole class through. Now there is
            Message 5 of 14 , Nov 30, 2005
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              G'day again, Edgar.

              This story is absolutely priceless. I would have loved to see the
              professors face after being ignored the whole class through. Now
              there is a case of contumacy I can enjoy!

              On the issue of integration though, I would tend to disagree. I feel
              that the last 150 years has shown that black and white will never be
              able to live under one government and that the best solution would
              be national seperation by way of an African-American kingdom,
              perhaps Michigan. Under the current system, blacks have zero chance
              of getting a brother to rule over them in accordence with Moses
              instructions to the Israelites. This could be partly responsible for
              the continuing degraded state of African-American people. When God
              assigned the territories and boundaries of man, the black man was
              placed in Africa, and the only reason they came to America was
              because of the sinful practise of slaving. Since it is too late to
              send them to Liberia as advocated by Lincoln, black self rule in
              their own portion of America would probably be the best solution.

              Slavery, segregation, and integration all have one thing in common;
              they deny blacks the right to form their own government and practise
              self-determination. In Australia, we had a policy of assimilation in
              regards to Aboriginals which snatched children away from the mothers
              and tried to compel Aborigines to marry only whites with the
              intention of "breeding out" the black blood. Intermarriage can be
              used as a weapon of war every bit as destructive of a people as
              sword and culvering (pistol). Our commonwealth is only now coming to
              terms with the issues of self-determination and treaty with
              Aboriginals, similar to the issues with Native American tribes in
              the USA who were denied their Indian states by atheistic (definitely
              not Puritan) armies in the 19th century.

              While I would not consider it a fellowship issue, I believe the best
              thing for believers to do is seperate into their own kingdoms and
              produce after their own kind, just like the plants and animals.

              All the best to you,
              Fred.

              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
              Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
              >
              > > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at Plymouth
              > > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke heart-
              felt
              > > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as yesterday
              when
              > > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing and
              > > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native American
              was
              > > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with the
              > > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the Mayflower
              > > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right. Blessings
              > from
              > > it continue to this day.
              >
              > The above reminded me of an event that occurred while I was at
              > California State University of Fullerton taking Latin American
              > Studies. In this class, we were "blessed" with a wacky professor
              > who lacked the erudition to be teaching at a University. This
              guy,
              > in his 60's I think, one day made the statement in class, which
              was
              > predominately Latino, and he was too, that when the Puritans
              landed
              > at Cape Cod they refused to intermarry with the Indigenous folk
              and
              > that is why they brought their own women and called themselves
              > Puritans. Now, wait before you react it gets worse. This
              > knucklehead Professor then said they were bigots and racists
              because
              > of this and that is why they were called Puritans, you see to keep
              > their blood pure! Now, I was not sure how to react at first
              whether
              > to laugh at his idiotic statement or to get angry for
              > misrepresenting the Puritans and what that term meant. He then
              went
              > on to say he was writing a book about this! Right when I was
              going
              > to respond, another student responded. Now I remind you that most
              > Latino university students are politcally left leaning in Southern
              > California. So this astute student asked him if the Spainards
              > intermixing with the indigenous people was a sign of not being
              > racists on their part? This professor then fell, hook, line, and
              > sinker!! He said YES! Oh, boy, I thought the class was going to
              > lynch him right then and there, it almost turned violent literally.
              >
              > Why? Well you see the Spainards did not intermix with the
              > indigenous because the latter wanted to. The Spaniards raped the
              > women, murdered the husbands, and ensalved the entire population
              and
              > then vast cultures and civilizations were methodically wiped out
              by
              > the Spainards via war & biological warfare (small pox). The
              asutute
              > and learned "Latino" knows this and for us that embrace our
              > indigenous heritage and culture we ensure that the Spainish
              > conquerors are not ennobled or glorified. Sure they wiped out
              pagan
              > religion that included human sacrifice and cannabalism and sure I
              > know that God used Spain to bring His judgment on them. As God
              used
              > the Assyrians against Israel and then judged Assyria for doing
              what
              > they did to Israel, so God I discern from reading the history of
              the
              > period did the same on Spain. If it were not for the religious
              > beliefs of the Mexicas (what many call Aztecs) and their religious
              > presupposition to warfare, then Cortes and his lackeys would have
              > been wiped out and Mexico would not have been conquered so easily.
              > And yes, Spain replaced one form of idolatry with another and the
              > genocide against the indigenous continues to this day, both
              > physically and psychologically. While it is true that they
              > practiced human sacrifice, it is equally true that the Spanish
              > conquest ushered in the largest and most horrible genocide ever
              > recorded in history. It was larger than the holocaust against the
              > Jews of WWII as hundreds of millions were wiped out. This was a
              > sacrifice of humans on the part of the Spainish in the name of the
              > Catholic Kings, the Pope, and Jesus Christ. Hence the barrier to
              > the Gospel among the younger educated Latinos in the USA.
              >
              > So back to my story. After several minutes of shouting at the
              > prof. on the part of the students and several adjectives in front
              of
              > this guy's name, everyone settled down. At which point, a student
              > said, "then praise God for the Puritans for NOT raping and
              murdering
              > the Indians"! I then clarified to everyone why the Puritans were
              > named Puritans and what that meant. I also told them about the
              > evangelistic method of the Puritans, of preaching and teaching and
              > NOT of raping and killing in the name of God. The students
              actually
              > enjoyed this and were interested on what I had said. The
              Professor
              > was ignored for the rest of the time and we had a good time
              > conversing about the Puritans and what they held to.
              >
              > All this to say, that, we must always ensure that when we are
              > proclaiming the Gospel, especially to those not part of one's
              > culture, that the Gospel must be presented in such a way that the
              > culture of the presenter is NOT brought across as superior than
              that
              > of the listener nor that the Gospel is a means to have one's
              culture
              > conqueror that of the other. In all reality, everyone's culture
              > should be molded and shaped by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and in
              > that sense, yes it should conquer the culture of every
              civilization
              > in the world. Sadly that is not the case today, even of the
              United
              > States of America, where pluralism is the staple of Christian
              > churches and all things American. It is a sad state of affairs
              when
              > two "ethnic" groups that live in the same nation and speak the
              very
              > same language, when both are professing Christians, are segregated
              > in "white" and "black" churches. The Gospel is supposed to
              > supersede that and cause all sides to be color blind and not look
              on
              > the other as lighter or darker, but as a fellow brother in Jesus
              > Christ (when that is the case) and willing to worship in the same
              > meeting place, have true Christian fellowship without taking pot
              > shoots at one another's culture, intermarry, and etc. Else, it
              will
              > be hard to convince others that Christianity isn't the "white
              man's
              > religion".
              >
              > I personnally love to learn of different cultures and respect
              > that which I find wholesome in other cultures. It is fascinating
              > what isolated people groups, post flood, accomplished across the
              > globe. The ingenuity and accomplishments of almost every culture
              is
              > a testimony of God's image in man, although marred, and the law of
              > nature and of His commandments can be seen if looked at closely.
              >
              > Your Mexica brother in Christ,
              >
              > Edgar Ibarra
              >
              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "nodelink7"
              > <gjgriff@y...> wrote:
              > >
              > > Imperfect thought the Separatist and Anglican settlers at
              Plymouth
              > may
              > > have been, it's remarkable that they remain in remembrance each
              > year
              > > when the USA observes its Thanksgiving Day. There were native
              > > Americans here earlier and earlier European settlements
              including
              > St.
              > > Augustine (Florida) and Jamestown (Virginia) but it is the early
              > > settlers at Plymouth who are kept most in remembrance.
              > >
              > > These travellers to Cape Cod (They made their first landing at
              Cape
              > > Code but soon afterwards became settlers at Plymouth.) made a
              > compact
              > > / covenant and constituted their civil government by it. The
              first
              > > two purposes of their voyage from England to Massachusetts (then
              > > considered to be northern Virginia) were the Glory of God and
              > > Advancement of the Christian Faith. They covenanted themselves
              and
              > > formed their civil government for the furtherance of these
              > purposes.
              > >
              > > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at Plymouth
              > > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke heart-
              felt
              > > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as yesterday
              when
              > > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing and
              > > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native American
              was
              > > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with the
              > > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the Mayflower
              > > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right. Blessings
              > from
              > > it continue to this day.
              > >
              > > From the Mayflower Compact:
              > >
              > > "...Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of
              the
              > > Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a
              voyage
              > to
              > > plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do by
              > these
              > > presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one of
              > > another, COVENANT and combine ourselves together into a civil
              Body
              > > Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and
              > Furtherance of
              > > the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute,
              and
              > > frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts, Constitutions
              > and
              > > Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and
              > > convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we
              > promise
              > > all due submission and obedience..."
              > >
              > >
              (http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/mayflower.htm)
              > >
              > > GG
              > >
              >
            • Fred blahous
              The worst part of all this is the conquest of the native peoples. If only they had sought to convert the tribal chiefs, the chiefs could have established
              Message 6 of 14 , Nov 30, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                The worst part of all this is the conquest of the native peoples. If
                only they had sought to convert the tribal chiefs, the chiefs could
                have established Christianity amongst all their subjects and formed
                mutual defense and friendship pacts, just as the Americans and
                Canadians did.

                All the best,
                Fred.

                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Whit"
                <covie_pres.1646@v...> wrote:
                >
                > That professor is hilarious but saddening with regards to
                Puritan.
                >
                > For Spanish class, I did a term paper on the spread of
                Christianity
                > in the New World. It was when I was far less Reformed than I am
                > now. However, I still recall that the Spaniards usurped the
                > Spirit's role and forced the Gospel on the indigenous people using
                > various forms of coercion instead of sharing the Gospel and
                letting
                > the Spirit move on their hearts.
                >
                > I long for the day when the title "Reyes Catolicos" of SS.MM. Los
                > Reyes (currently, Don Juan Carlos I and Doña Sofia) is dropped and
                a
                > Protestant line of Kings fear God, rule according to His
                > commandments, and help establish the true Christian religion in
                > España.
                >
                > Whit
                >
                > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                > Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                > >
                > > > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at Plymouth
                > > > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke heart-
                > felt
                > > > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as yesterday
                > when
                > > > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing and
                > > > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native
                American
                > was
                > > > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with
                the
                > > > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the
                Mayflower
                > > > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right.
                Blessings
                > > from
                > > > it continue to this day.
                > >
                > > The above reminded me of an event that occurred while I was at
                > > California State University of Fullerton taking Latin American
                > > Studies. In this class, we were "blessed" with a wacky
                professor
                > > who lacked the erudition to be teaching at a University. This
                > guy,
                > > in his 60's I think, one day made the statement in class, which
                > was
                > > predominately Latino, and he was too, that when the Puritans
                > landed
                > > at Cape Cod they refused to intermarry with the Indigenous folk
                > and
                > > that is why they brought their own women and called themselves
                > > Puritans. Now, wait before you react it gets worse. This
                > > knucklehead Professor then said they were bigots and racists
                > because
                > > of this and that is why they were called Puritans, you see to
                keep
                > > their blood pure! Now, I was not sure how to react at first
                > whether
                > > to laugh at his idiotic statement or to get angry for
                > > misrepresenting the Puritans and what that term meant. He then
                > went
                > > on to say he was writing a book about this! Right when I was
                > going
                > > to respond, another student responded. Now I remind you that
                most
                > > Latino university students are politcally left leaning in
                Southern
                > > California. So this astute student asked him if the Spainards
                > > intermixing with the indigenous people was a sign of not being
                > > racists on their part? This professor then fell, hook, line,
                and
                > > sinker!! He said YES! Oh, boy, I thought the class was going
                to
                > > lynch him right then and there, it almost turned violent
                literally.
                > >
                > > Why? Well you see the Spainards did not intermix with the
                > > indigenous because the latter wanted to. The Spaniards raped
                the
                > > women, murdered the husbands, and ensalved the entire population
                > and
                > > then vast cultures and civilizations were methodically wiped out
                > by
                > > the Spainards via war & biological warfare (small pox). The
                > asutute
                > > and learned "Latino" knows this and for us that embrace our
                > > indigenous heritage and culture we ensure that the Spainish
                > > conquerors are not ennobled or glorified. Sure they wiped out
                > pagan
                > > religion that included human sacrifice and cannabalism and sure
                I
                > > know that God used Spain to bring His judgment on them. As God
                > used
                > > the Assyrians against Israel and then judged Assyria for doing
                > what
                > > they did to Israel, so God I discern from reading the history of
                > the
                > > period did the same on Spain. If it were not for the religious
                > > beliefs of the Mexicas (what many call Aztecs) and their
                religious
                > > presupposition to warfare, then Cortes and his lackeys would
                have
                > > been wiped out and Mexico would not have been conquered so
                easily.
                > > And yes, Spain replaced one form of idolatry with another and
                the
                > > genocide against the indigenous continues to this day, both
                > > physically and psychologically. While it is true that they
                > > practiced human sacrifice, it is equally true that the Spanish
                > > conquest ushered in the largest and most horrible genocide ever
                > > recorded in history. It was larger than the holocaust against
                the
                > > Jews of WWII as hundreds of millions were wiped out. This was a
                > > sacrifice of humans on the part of the Spainish in the name of
                the
                > > Catholic Kings, the Pope, and Jesus Christ. Hence the barrier
                to
                > > the Gospel among the younger educated Latinos in the USA.
                > >
                > > So back to my story. After several minutes of shouting at the
                > > prof. on the part of the students and several adjectives in
                front
                > of
                > > this guy's name, everyone settled down. At which point, a
                student
                > > said, "then praise God for the Puritans for NOT raping and
                > murdering
                > > the Indians"! I then clarified to everyone why the Puritans
                were
                > > named Puritans and what that meant. I also told them about the
                > > evangelistic method of the Puritans, of preaching and teaching
                and
                > > NOT of raping and killing in the name of God. The students
                > actually
                > > enjoyed this and were interested on what I had said. The
                > Professor
                > > was ignored for the rest of the time and we had a good time
                > > conversing about the Puritans and what they held to.
                > >
                > > All this to say, that, we must always ensure that when we
                are
                > > proclaiming the Gospel, especially to those not part of one's
                > > culture, that the Gospel must be presented in such a way that
                the
                > > culture of the presenter is NOT brought across as superior than
                > that
                > > of the listener nor that the Gospel is a means to have one's
                > culture
                > > conqueror that of the other. In all reality, everyone's culture
                > > should be molded and shaped by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and in
                > > that sense, yes it should conquer the culture of every
                > civilization
                > > in the world. Sadly that is not the case today, even of the
                > United
                > > States of America, where pluralism is the staple of Christian
                > > churches and all things American. It is a sad state of affairs
                > when
                > > two "ethnic" groups that live in the same nation and speak the
                > very
                > > same language, when both are professing Christians, are
                segregated
                > > in "white" and "black" churches. The Gospel is supposed to
                > > supersede that and cause all sides to be color blind and not
                look
                > on
                > > the other as lighter or darker, but as a fellow brother in Jesus
                > > Christ (when that is the case) and willing to worship in the
                same
                > > meeting place, have true Christian fellowship without taking pot
                > > shoots at one another's culture, intermarry, and etc. Else, it
                > will
                > > be hard to convince others that Christianity isn't the "white
                > man's
                > > religion".
                > >
                > > I personnally love to learn of different cultures and respect
                > > that which I find wholesome in other cultures. It is
                fascinating
                > > what isolated people groups, post flood, accomplished across the
                > > globe. The ingenuity and accomplishments of almost every
                culture
                > is
                > > a testimony of God's image in man, although marred, and the law
                of
                > > nature and of His commandments can be seen if looked at closely.
                > >
                > > Your Mexica brother in Christ,
                > >
                > > Edgar Ibarra
                > >
                > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "nodelink7"
                > > <gjgriff@y...> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Imperfect thought the Separatist and Anglican settlers at
                > Plymouth
                > > may
                > > > have been, it's remarkable that they remain in remembrance
                each
                > > year
                > > > when the USA observes its Thanksgiving Day. There were native
                > > > Americans here earlier and earlier European settlements
                > including
                > > St.
                > > > Augustine (Florida) and Jamestown (Virginia) but it is the
                early
                > > > settlers at Plymouth who are kept most in remembrance.
                > > >
                > > > These travellers to Cape Cod (They made their first landing at
                > Cape
                > > > Code but soon afterwards became settlers at Plymouth.) made a
                > > compact
                > > > / covenant and constituted their civil government by it. The
                > first
                > > > two purposes of their voyage from England to Massachusetts
                (then
                > > > considered to be northern Virginia) were the Glory of God and
                > > > Advancement of the Christian Faith. They covenanted
                themselves
                > and
                > > > formed their civil government for the furtherance of these
                > > purposes.
                > > >
                > > > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at Plymouth
                > > > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke heart-
                > felt
                > > > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as yesterday
                > when
                > > > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing and
                > > > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native
                American
                > was
                > > > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with
                the
                > > > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the
                Mayflower
                > > > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right.
                Blessings
                > > from
                > > > it continue to this day.
                > > >
                > > > From the Mayflower Compact:
                > > >
                > > > "...Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of
                > the
                > > > Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a
                > voyage
                > > to
                > > > plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do
                by
                > > these
                > > > presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one
                of
                > > > another, COVENANT and combine ourselves together into a civil
                > Body
                > > > Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and
                > > Furtherance of
                > > > the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute,
                > and
                > > > frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts,
                Constitutions
                > > and
                > > > Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and
                > > > convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we
                > > promise
                > > > all due submission and obedience..."
                > > >
                > > >
                > (http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/mayflower.htm)
                > > >
                > > > GG
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                Fred, ... So do you mean to tell me that blacks, whites, abroginals are not the same kind? That they should not intermarry, not for the sake of conquest and
                Message 7 of 14 , Nov 30, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Fred,

                  Your wrote:
                  >While I would not consider it a fellowship issue, I believe the best
                  >thing for believers to do is seperate into their own kingdoms and
                  >produce after their own kind, just like the plants and animals.


                  So do you mean to tell me that blacks, whites, abroginals are not
                  the same kind? That they should not intermarry, not for the sake of
                  conquest and elimination, but out of love between a black man and a
                  white woman? Or a black woman and a white man?

                  Moses' law was one of being unequally yoked with UNBELIEVERS.
                  The New Testament states the same, do not marry unbelievers. What
                  we can do is marry in the Lord. So if an abroginal man and a white
                  Australian woman fall in love and both are true Christians, then
                  they have all the Biblical rights (given all the other biblical
                  necessities are there) to marry. It would be foolish and a sinful
                  expression of hate to deny this to any person on the basis of skin
                  color or cultural background.


                  Last time I checked WE all are desendants of Adam and of Noah.
                  WE all are created after God's image, REGARDLESS of skin color.
                  Such blatant separation that you advocate is sinful and contrary to
                  Biblical precepts. Whether I hear the same from Black Muslims, such
                  as the Nation of Islam in the U.S. of whom I have debated several
                  times in the past or the same type of nut cases as in
                  the "Christian" Identity movement, any and all who push for such a
                  practice have never read or chose to ignore the Bible, for in
                  Christ, "there is no Jew or Gentile, no Scythian or Greek, male or
                  female, for all are in Christ" and all are equal in the eyes of God
                  and equally evil and sinful, no one group more than another.

                  Fred, you need to purge the Darwinism from you mentality. You
                  still have the evolutionary cancer in your veins and do not know
                  it. I pray to God that He will cleanse you from this poison.


                  Your Brother in
                  Christ our King
                  who was born a Jew,

                  Edgar Ibarra
                  Mexica of Mayan blood
                  mixed w/ Spanish blood


                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Fred blahous"
                  <fritzbau@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > G'day again, Edgar.
                  >
                  > This story is absolutely priceless. I would have loved to see the
                  > professors face after being ignored the whole class through. Now
                  > there is a case of contumacy I can enjoy!
                  >
                  > On the issue of integration though, I would tend to disagree. I
                  feel
                  > that the last 150 years has shown that black and white will never
                  be
                  > able to live under one government and that the best solution would
                  > be national seperation by way of an African-American kingdom,
                  > perhaps Michigan. Under the current system, blacks have zero
                  chance
                  > of getting a brother to rule over them in accordence with Moses
                  > instructions to the Israelites. This could be partly responsible
                  for
                  > the continuing degraded state of African-American people. When God
                  > assigned the territories and boundaries of man, the black man was
                  > placed in Africa, and the only reason they came to America was
                  > because of the sinful practise of slaving. Since it is too late to
                  > send them to Liberia as advocated by Lincoln, black self rule in
                  > their own portion of America would probably be the best solution.
                  >
                  > Slavery, segregation, and integration all have one thing in
                  common;
                  > they deny blacks the right to form their own government and
                  practise
                  > self-determination. In Australia, we had a policy of assimilation
                  in
                  > regards to Aboriginals which snatched children away from the
                  mothers
                  > and tried to compel Aborigines to marry only whites with the
                  > intention of "breeding out" the black blood. Intermarriage can be
                  > used as a weapon of war every bit as destructive of a people as
                  > sword and culvering (pistol). Our commonwealth is only now coming
                  to
                  > terms with the issues of self-determination and treaty with
                  > Aboriginals, similar to the issues with Native American tribes in
                  > the USA who were denied their Indian states by atheistic
                  (definitely
                  > not Puritan) armies in the 19th century.
                  >
                  > While I would not consider it a fellowship issue, I believe the
                  best
                  > thing for believers to do is seperate into their own kingdoms and
                  > produce after their own kind, just like the plants and animals.
                  >
                  > All the best to you,
                  > Fred.
                  >
                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                  > Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at Plymouth
                  > > > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke heart-
                  > felt
                  > > > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as yesterday
                  > when
                  > > > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing and
                  > > > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native
                  American
                  > was
                  > > > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with
                  the
                  > > > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the
                  Mayflower
                  > > > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right.
                  Blessings
                  > > from
                  > > > it continue to this day.
                  > >
                  > > The above reminded me of an event that occurred while I was at
                  > > California State University of Fullerton taking Latin American
                  > > Studies. In this class, we were "blessed" with a wacky
                  professor
                  > > who lacked the erudition to be teaching at a University. This
                  > guy,
                  > > in his 60's I think, one day made the statement in class, which
                  > was
                  > > predominately Latino, and he was too, that when the Puritans
                  > landed
                  > > at Cape Cod they refused to intermarry with the Indigenous folk
                  > and
                  > > that is why they brought their own women and called themselves
                  > > Puritans. Now, wait before you react it gets worse. This
                  > > knucklehead Professor then said they were bigots and racists
                  > because
                  > > of this and that is why they were called Puritans, you see to
                  keep
                  > > their blood pure! Now, I was not sure how to react at first
                  > whether
                  > > to laugh at his idiotic statement or to get angry for
                  > > misrepresenting the Puritans and what that term meant. He then
                  > went
                  > > on to say he was writing a book about this! Right when I was
                  > going
                  > > to respond, another student responded. Now I remind you that
                  most
                  > > Latino university students are politcally left leaning in
                  Southern
                  > > California. So this astute student asked him if the Spainards
                  > > intermixing with the indigenous people was a sign of not being
                  > > racists on their part? This professor then fell, hook, line,
                  and
                  > > sinker!! He said YES! Oh, boy, I thought the class was going
                  to
                  > > lynch him right then and there, it almost turned violent
                  literally.
                  > >
                  > > Why? Well you see the Spainards did not intermix with the
                  > > indigenous because the latter wanted to. The Spaniards raped
                  the
                  > > women, murdered the husbands, and ensalved the entire population
                  > and
                  > > then vast cultures and civilizations were methodically wiped out
                  > by
                  > > the Spainards via war & biological warfare (small pox). The
                  > asutute
                  > > and learned "Latino" knows this and for us that embrace our
                  > > indigenous heritage and culture we ensure that the Spainish
                  > > conquerors are not ennobled or glorified. Sure they wiped out
                  > pagan
                  > > religion that included human sacrifice and cannabalism and sure
                  I
                  > > know that God used Spain to bring His judgment on them. As God
                  > used
                  > > the Assyrians against Israel and then judged Assyria for doing
                  > what
                  > > they did to Israel, so God I discern from reading the history of
                  > the
                  > > period did the same on Spain. If it were not for the religious
                  > > beliefs of the Mexicas (what many call Aztecs) and their
                  religious
                  > > presupposition to warfare, then Cortes and his lackeys would
                  have
                  > > been wiped out and Mexico would not have been conquered so
                  easily.
                  > > And yes, Spain replaced one form of idolatry with another and
                  the
                  > > genocide against the indigenous continues to this day, both
                  > > physically and psychologically. While it is true that they
                  > > practiced human sacrifice, it is equally true that the Spanish
                  > > conquest ushered in the largest and most horrible genocide ever
                  > > recorded in history. It was larger than the holocaust against
                  the
                  > > Jews of WWII as hundreds of millions were wiped out. This was a
                  > > sacrifice of humans on the part of the Spainish in the name of
                  the
                  > > Catholic Kings, the Pope, and Jesus Christ. Hence the barrier
                  to
                  > > the Gospel among the younger educated Latinos in the USA.
                  > >
                  > > So back to my story. After several minutes of shouting at the
                  > > prof. on the part of the students and several adjectives in
                  front
                  > of
                  > > this guy's name, everyone settled down. At which point, a
                  student
                  > > said, "then praise God for the Puritans for NOT raping and
                  > murdering
                  > > the Indians"! I then clarified to everyone why the Puritans
                  were
                  > > named Puritans and what that meant. I also told them about the
                  > > evangelistic method of the Puritans, of preaching and teaching
                  and
                  > > NOT of raping and killing in the name of God. The students
                  > actually
                  > > enjoyed this and were interested on what I had said. The
                  > Professor
                  > > was ignored for the rest of the time and we had a good time
                  > > conversing about the Puritans and what they held to.
                  > >
                  > > All this to say, that, we must always ensure that when we
                  are
                  > > proclaiming the Gospel, especially to those not part of one's
                  > > culture, that the Gospel must be presented in such a way that
                  the
                  > > culture of the presenter is NOT brought across as superior than
                  > that
                  > > of the listener nor that the Gospel is a means to have one's
                  > culture
                  > > conqueror that of the other. In all reality, everyone's culture
                  > > should be molded and shaped by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and in
                  > > that sense, yes it should conquer the culture of every
                  > civilization
                  > > in the world. Sadly that is not the case today, even of the
                  > United
                  > > States of America, where pluralism is the staple of Christian
                  > > churches and all things American. It is a sad state of affairs
                  > when
                  > > two "ethnic" groups that live in the same nation and speak the
                  > very
                  > > same language, when both are professing Christians, are
                  segregated
                  > > in "white" and "black" churches. The Gospel is supposed to
                  > > supersede that and cause all sides to be color blind and not
                  look
                  > on
                  > > the other as lighter or darker, but as a fellow brother in Jesus
                  > > Christ (when that is the case) and willing to worship in the
                  same
                  > > meeting place, have true Christian fellowship without taking pot
                  > > shoots at one another's culture, intermarry, and etc. Else, it
                  > will
                  > > be hard to convince others that Christianity isn't the "white
                  > man's
                  > > religion".
                  > >
                  > > I personnally love to learn of different cultures and respect
                  > > that which I find wholesome in other cultures. It is
                  fascinating
                  > > what isolated people groups, post flood, accomplished across the
                  > > globe. The ingenuity and accomplishments of almost every
                  culture
                  > is
                  > > a testimony of God's image in man, although marred, and the law
                  of
                  > > nature and of His commandments can be seen if looked at closely.
                  > >
                  > > Your Mexica brother in Christ,
                  > >
                  > > Edgar Ibarra
                  > >
                  > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "nodelink7"
                  > > <gjgriff@y...> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Imperfect thought the Separatist and Anglican settlers at
                  > Plymouth
                  > > may
                  > > > have been, it's remarkable that they remain in remembrance
                  each
                  > > year
                  > > > when the USA observes its Thanksgiving Day. There were native
                  > > > Americans here earlier and earlier European settlements
                  > including
                  > > St.
                  > > > Augustine (Florida) and Jamestown (Virginia) but it is the
                  early
                  > > > settlers at Plymouth who are kept most in remembrance.
                  > > >
                  > > > These travellers to Cape Cod (They made their first landing at
                  > Cape
                  > > > Code but soon afterwards became settlers at Plymouth.) made a
                  > > compact
                  > > > / covenant and constituted their civil government by it. The
                  > first
                  > > > two purposes of their voyage from England to Massachusetts
                  (then
                  > > > considered to be northern Virginia) were the Glory of God and
                  > > > Advancement of the Christian Faith. They covenanted
                  themselves
                  > and
                  > > > formed their civil government for the furtherance of these
                  > > purposes.
                  > > >
                  > > > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at Plymouth
                  > > > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke heart-
                  > felt
                  > > > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as yesterday
                  > when
                  > > > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing and
                  > > > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native
                  American
                  > was
                  > > > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with
                  the
                  > > > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the
                  Mayflower
                  > > > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right.
                  Blessings
                  > > from
                  > > > it continue to this day.
                  > > >
                  > > > From the Mayflower Compact:
                  > > >
                  > > > "...Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement of
                  > the
                  > > > Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a
                  > voyage
                  > > to
                  > > > plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do
                  by
                  > > these
                  > > > presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and one
                  of
                  > > > another, COVENANT and combine ourselves together into a civil
                  > Body
                  > > > Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and
                  > > Furtherance of
                  > > > the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact, constitute,
                  > and
                  > > > frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts,
                  Constitutions
                  > > and
                  > > > Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and
                  > > > convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we
                  > > promise
                  > > > all due submission and obedience..."
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > (http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/mayflower.htm)
                  > > >
                  > > > GG
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • Whit
                  ... If ... could ... formed ... Indeed so! Whit ... using ... Los ... and ... Ibarra ... Plymouth ... heart- ... yesterday ... and ... which ... folk ... then
                  Message 8 of 14 , Nov 30, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Fred blahous"
                    <fritzbau@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > The worst part of all this is the conquest of the native peoples.
                    If
                    > only they had sought to convert the tribal chiefs, the chiefs
                    could
                    > have established Christianity amongst all their subjects and
                    formed
                    > mutual defense and friendship pacts, just as the Americans and
                    > Canadians did.
                    >
                    > All the best,
                    > Fred.
                    >

                    Indeed so!

                    Whit


                    > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Whit"
                    > <covie_pres.1646@v...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > That professor is hilarious but saddening with regards to
                    > Puritan.
                    > >
                    > > For Spanish class, I did a term paper on the spread of
                    > Christianity
                    > > in the New World. It was when I was far less Reformed than I am
                    > > now. However, I still recall that the Spaniards usurped the
                    > > Spirit's role and forced the Gospel on the indigenous people
                    using
                    > > various forms of coercion instead of sharing the Gospel and
                    > letting
                    > > the Spirit move on their hearts.
                    > >
                    > > I long for the day when the title "Reyes Catolicos" of SS.MM.
                    Los
                    > > Reyes (currently, Don Juan Carlos I and Doña Sofia) is dropped
                    and
                    > a
                    > > Protestant line of Kings fear God, rule according to His
                    > > commandments, and help establish the true Christian religion in
                    > > España.
                    > >
                    > > Whit
                    > >
                    > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A.
                    Ibarra
                    > > Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at
                    Plymouth
                    > > > > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke
                    heart-
                    > > felt
                    > > > > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as
                    yesterday
                    > > when
                    > > > > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing
                    and
                    > > > > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native
                    > American
                    > > was
                    > > > > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with
                    > the
                    > > > > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the
                    > Mayflower
                    > > > > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right.
                    > Blessings
                    > > > from
                    > > > > it continue to this day.
                    > > >
                    > > > The above reminded me of an event that occurred while I was at
                    > > > California State University of Fullerton taking Latin American
                    > > > Studies. In this class, we were "blessed" with a wacky
                    > professor
                    > > > who lacked the erudition to be teaching at a University. This
                    > > guy,
                    > > > in his 60's I think, one day made the statement in class,
                    which
                    > > was
                    > > > predominately Latino, and he was too, that when the Puritans
                    > > landed
                    > > > at Cape Cod they refused to intermarry with the Indigenous
                    folk
                    > > and
                    > > > that is why they brought their own women and called themselves
                    > > > Puritans. Now, wait before you react it gets worse. This
                    > > > knucklehead Professor then said they were bigots and racists
                    > > because
                    > > > of this and that is why they were called Puritans, you see to
                    > keep
                    > > > their blood pure! Now, I was not sure how to react at first
                    > > whether
                    > > > to laugh at his idiotic statement or to get angry for
                    > > > misrepresenting the Puritans and what that term meant. He
                    then
                    > > went
                    > > > on to say he was writing a book about this! Right when I was
                    > > going
                    > > > to respond, another student responded. Now I remind you that
                    > most
                    > > > Latino university students are politcally left leaning in
                    > Southern
                    > > > California. So this astute student asked him if the Spainards
                    > > > intermixing with the indigenous people was a sign of not being
                    > > > racists on their part? This professor then fell, hook, line,
                    > and
                    > > > sinker!! He said YES! Oh, boy, I thought the class was going
                    > to
                    > > > lynch him right then and there, it almost turned violent
                    > literally.
                    > > >
                    > > > Why? Well you see the Spainards did not intermix with the
                    > > > indigenous because the latter wanted to. The Spaniards raped
                    > the
                    > > > women, murdered the husbands, and ensalved the entire
                    population
                    > > and
                    > > > then vast cultures and civilizations were methodically wiped
                    out
                    > > by
                    > > > the Spainards via war & biological warfare (small pox). The
                    > > asutute
                    > > > and learned "Latino" knows this and for us that embrace our
                    > > > indigenous heritage and culture we ensure that the Spainish
                    > > > conquerors are not ennobled or glorified. Sure they wiped out
                    > > pagan
                    > > > religion that included human sacrifice and cannabalism and
                    sure
                    > I
                    > > > know that God used Spain to bring His judgment on them. As
                    God
                    > > used
                    > > > the Assyrians against Israel and then judged Assyria for doing
                    > > what
                    > > > they did to Israel, so God I discern from reading the history
                    of
                    > > the
                    > > > period did the same on Spain. If it were not for the
                    religious
                    > > > beliefs of the Mexicas (what many call Aztecs) and their
                    > religious
                    > > > presupposition to warfare, then Cortes and his lackeys would
                    > have
                    > > > been wiped out and Mexico would not have been conquered so
                    > easily.
                    > > > And yes, Spain replaced one form of idolatry with another and
                    > the
                    > > > genocide against the indigenous continues to this day, both
                    > > > physically and psychologically. While it is true that they
                    > > > practiced human sacrifice, it is equally true that the Spanish
                    > > > conquest ushered in the largest and most horrible genocide
                    ever
                    > > > recorded in history. It was larger than the holocaust against
                    > the
                    > > > Jews of WWII as hundreds of millions were wiped out. This was
                    a
                    > > > sacrifice of humans on the part of the Spainish in the name of
                    > the
                    > > > Catholic Kings, the Pope, and Jesus Christ. Hence the barrier
                    > to
                    > > > the Gospel among the younger educated Latinos in the USA.
                    > > >
                    > > > So back to my story. After several minutes of shouting at
                    the
                    > > > prof. on the part of the students and several adjectives in
                    > front
                    > > of
                    > > > this guy's name, everyone settled down. At which point, a
                    > student
                    > > > said, "then praise God for the Puritans for NOT raping and
                    > > murdering
                    > > > the Indians"! I then clarified to everyone why the Puritans
                    > were
                    > > > named Puritans and what that meant. I also told them about
                    the
                    > > > evangelistic method of the Puritans, of preaching and teaching
                    > and
                    > > > NOT of raping and killing in the name of God. The students
                    > > actually
                    > > > enjoyed this and were interested on what I had said. The
                    > > Professor
                    > > > was ignored for the rest of the time and we had a good time
                    > > > conversing about the Puritans and what they held to.
                    > > >
                    > > > All this to say, that, we must always ensure that when we
                    > are
                    > > > proclaiming the Gospel, especially to those not part of one's
                    > > > culture, that the Gospel must be presented in such a way that
                    > the
                    > > > culture of the presenter is NOT brought across as superior
                    than
                    > > that
                    > > > of the listener nor that the Gospel is a means to have one's
                    > > culture
                    > > > conqueror that of the other. In all reality, everyone's
                    culture
                    > > > should be molded and shaped by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and
                    in
                    > > > that sense, yes it should conquer the culture of every
                    > > civilization
                    > > > in the world. Sadly that is not the case today, even of the
                    > > United
                    > > > States of America, where pluralism is the staple of Christian
                    > > > churches and all things American. It is a sad state of affairs
                    > > when
                    > > > two "ethnic" groups that live in the same nation and speak the
                    > > very
                    > > > same language, when both are professing Christians, are
                    > segregated
                    > > > in "white" and "black" churches. The Gospel is supposed to
                    > > > supersede that and cause all sides to be color blind and not
                    > look
                    > > on
                    > > > the other as lighter or darker, but as a fellow brother in
                    Jesus
                    > > > Christ (when that is the case) and willing to worship in the
                    > same
                    > > > meeting place, have true Christian fellowship without taking
                    pot
                    > > > shoots at one another's culture, intermarry, and etc. Else,
                    it
                    > > will
                    > > > be hard to convince others that Christianity isn't the "white
                    > > man's
                    > > > religion".
                    > > >
                    > > > I personnally love to learn of different cultures and
                    respect
                    > > > that which I find wholesome in other cultures. It is
                    > fascinating
                    > > > what isolated people groups, post flood, accomplished across
                    the
                    > > > globe. The ingenuity and accomplishments of almost every
                    > culture
                    > > is
                    > > > a testimony of God's image in man, although marred, and the
                    law
                    > of
                    > > > nature and of His commandments can be seen if looked at
                    closely.
                    > > >
                    > > > Your Mexica brother in Christ,
                    > > >
                    > > > Edgar Ibarra
                    > > >
                    > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "nodelink7"
                    > > > <gjgriff@y...> wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Imperfect thought the Separatist and Anglican settlers at
                    > > Plymouth
                    > > > may
                    > > > > have been, it's remarkable that they remain in remembrance
                    > each
                    > > > year
                    > > > > when the USA observes its Thanksgiving Day. There were
                    native
                    > > > > Americans here earlier and earlier European settlements
                    > > including
                    > > > St.
                    > > > > Augustine (Florida) and Jamestown (Virginia) but it is the
                    > early
                    > > > > settlers at Plymouth who are kept most in remembrance.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > These travellers to Cape Cod (They made their first landing
                    at
                    > > Cape
                    > > > > Code but soon afterwards became settlers at Plymouth.) made
                    a
                    > > > compact
                    > > > > / covenant and constituted their civil government by it.
                    The
                    > > first
                    > > > > two purposes of their voyage from England to Massachusetts
                    > (then
                    > > > > considered to be northern Virginia) were the Glory of God and
                    > > > > Advancement of the Christian Faith. They covenanted
                    > themselves
                    > > and
                    > > > > formed their civil government for the furtherance of these
                    > > > purposes.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at
                    Plymouth
                    > > > > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke
                    heart-
                    > > felt
                    > > > > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as
                    yesterday
                    > > when
                    > > > > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing
                    and
                    > > > > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native
                    > American
                    > > was
                    > > > > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with
                    > the
                    > > > > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the
                    > Mayflower
                    > > > > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right.
                    > Blessings
                    > > > from
                    > > > > it continue to this day.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > From the Mayflower Compact:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "...Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement
                    of
                    > > the
                    > > > > Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a
                    > > voyage
                    > > > to
                    > > > > plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do
                    > by
                    > > > these
                    > > > > presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and
                    one
                    > of
                    > > > > another, COVENANT and combine ourselves together into a
                    civil
                    > > Body
                    > > > > Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and
                    > > > Furtherance of
                    > > > > the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact,
                    constitute,
                    > > and
                    > > > > frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts,
                    > Constitutions
                    > > > and
                    > > > > Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and
                    > > > > convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we
                    > > > promise
                    > > > > all due submission and obedience..."
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > >
                    (http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/mayflower.htm)
                    > > > >
                    > > > > GG
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Nikolai
                    Fred blahous wrote: ... I ve been lurking here for quite some time but statements like this I can t really let to pass by. Fred, I believe this is the
                    Message 9 of 14 , Dec 1, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Fred blahous wrote:

                      <snip>

                      > the best solution would
                      > be national seperation by way of an African-American kingdom,
                      > perhaps Michigan.

                      I've been lurking here for quite some time but statements like this I
                      can't really let to pass by. Fred, I believe this is the most
                      outrageously racist statement I have read since I don't remember when
                      and this being a Christian list, and a Reformed one to boot, surprises
                      me even more. I hope though that you don't really understand what you're
                      talking about or what kind of consequences ideas like these bring.

                      Nikolai Razouvayev
                      Evangelical Presbyterian Church
                      Brisbane, Australia
                    • Fred blahous
                      G day Edgar, Will reply to your post below, but I think I should point out a few things to clear up any misunderstandings first. 1. I do not and will not
                      Message 10 of 14 , Dec 2, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        G'day Edgar,

                        Will reply to your post below, but I think I should point out a few
                        things to clear up any misunderstandings first.

                        1. I do not and will not advocate a belief that makes one race
                        superior to another. This means that whites are not greater or more
                        valuable than blacks, Jews are not loved by God more than any other
                        people, blacks are not the only true Israelites as some of them
                        claim, etc.

                        2. I agree that all races are equal in the sight of God and worthy
                        of equal respect. This means I reject the silly notion of atheists
                        that race is non-existent. This is like evolutionists who call us "a
                        collection of molecules" or "stardust".

                        3. I am not arguing that a brother should be shunned or disciplined
                        by the church if they intermarry. I make an arguement only for what
                        I feel would be best practise for believers generally. To make an
                        issue of ecclesiastical discipline requires a lawful General
                        Assembly raised by a lawful king or magistrate to determine the
                        matter one way or another, neither of which we presently possess.

                        4. As long as the couple had the support of both parents before
                        contracting the marriage, I believe the church should treat this
                        matter as adiaphora. Couples who are in this situation deserve no
                        disrespect, but for those who are considering it, I would generally
                        advise against it, and I intend my children to only marry those who
                        are Presbyterians of British and/or other European descent.

                        And now, onto your post;

                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                        Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Fred,
                        >
                        > Your wrote:
                        > >While I would not consider it a fellowship issue, I believe the
                        best
                        > >thing for believers to do is seperate into their own kingdoms and
                        > >produce after their own kind, just like the plants and animals.
                        >
                        >
                        > So do you mean to tell me that blacks, whites, abroginals are
                        not
                        > the same kind? That they should not intermarry, not for the sake
                        of
                        > conquest and elimination, but out of love between a black man and
                        a
                        > white woman? Or a black woman and a white man?

                        Aboriginals and Anglo-Australians are not the same kind. The
                        Aboriginal people are not the posterity of England, Scotland, and
                        Ireland, and hence do not inherit the obligations under the SL&C.
                        The differences between Semetic, Japethite, and Hamitic are self-
                        evident and plainly visible. Both tribes are equally valuable to
                        God, but they are not the same. Remember, WW1 was caused by Imperial
                        subjection of Central Europe and the Balkans by the Von Hapsburgs
                        and denial of self-determination for Magyars, Chechs, Croats, Serbs,
                        et al. The same thing happened with Aboriginals in Australia. These
                        are two different nations. Remember what Topol said to Chava in
                        Fiddler on the Roof? A bird and a fish may love each other, but they
                        really blow as partners-or words to that effect. I love my dad, but
                        that doesn't mean I should marry him and raise an adopted kid with
                        him.

                        > Moses' law was one of being unequally yoked with UNBELIEVERS.
                        > The New Testament states the same, do not marry unbelievers. What
                        > we can do is marry in the Lord. So if an abroginal man and a

                        But Ezra and Nehemiah sent away all the foreign wives and children.
                        Where none of these believers? I understand that the grounds of
                        divorce of Jesus now eliminate that posibility, but keep in mind
                        that the OT economy forbid a believer of mixed blood from entering
                        the congregation for 400 years-ten generations, after which they
                        would have an inferior status. This is why Ultra-Orthodox Jews are
                        forbidden from shaking the hand of a non-Jew. Clearly, the
                        importance of commonality of blood in marriage at the time, has
                        something to say to us today.

                        white
                        > Australian woman fall in love and both are true Christians, then
                        > they have all the Biblical rights (given all the other biblical
                        > necessities are there) to marry. It would be foolish and a sinful
                        > expression of hate to deny this to any person on the basis of skin
                        > color or cultural background.
                        >
                        Where does the bible forbid parents from denying marriage to their
                        children on these grounds? Chapter? Verse? Do Jews hate all non-Jews
                        because their laws forbid intermarriage even now? Are not they
                        obliged to love the stranger as themselves in their own law in
                        accordence with the 6th commandment. Clearly loving a stranger as
                        oneself is not the same as conferring marriage rights. If I bear a
                        son and he wishes to marry a Calvinistic Reformed Baptist or Latin-
                        rite Catholic and I say no, is this "a sinful expression of hate"
                        towards my non-Presbyterian brethren. They could be saved. And
                        scripture only says don't marry an unbeliever. The reason for not
                        allowing it is due to unequal yoking because of cultural
                        differences. These differences also can create conflict on racial or
                        ethnic grounds. Hence, a parent has not erred or expressed hatred
                        for anyone if he chooses to deny marriage in this case.

                        > Last time I checked WE all are desendants of Adam and of Noah.
                        > WE all are created after God's image, REGARDLESS of skin color.

                        We are indeed all descendents of Adam and Noah. But we are also
                        descendents of Shem, Ham, or Japeth. We have no way of knowing what
                        colour Adam or Noah were. We do know what the three sons were and
                        what our parents are. Shouldn't we honour them by practising self-
                        preservation?

                        > Such blatant separation that you advocate is sinful and contrary
                        to
                        > Biblical precepts.

                        Which biblical precepts are contrary to national sovereignty? I am
                        not talking about forcing whites and blacks to live seperately under
                        a white government or white masters. I am merely argueing that if
                        blacks want to form a seperate kingdom and government on biblical
                        principles within the current United States, they should be allowed
                        to. Isn't this what Jacob did in establishing the Kingdom of Israel,
                        a country that Christ will one day rule as the King of the Jews.

                        Whether I hear the same from Black Muslims, such
                        > as the Nation of Islam in the U.S. of whom I have debated several
                        > times in the past or the same type of nut cases as in
                        > the "Christian" Identity movement, any and all who push for such a
                        > practice have never read or chose to ignore the Bible, for in
                        > Christ, "there is no Jew or Gentile, no Scythian or Greek, male or
                        > female, for all are in Christ" and all are equal in the eyes of
                        God
                        > and equally evil and sinful, no one group more than another.

                        The problems with the Nation of Islam and Farrakhan is not that they
                        want a black nation, otherwise President Chiluba of Zambia would
                        also be sinning, the problem with this group is its hatred of whites
                        and its idolatrous religion. If they were a black Covenantor group
                        which desired a black kingdom and bore no ill-will to anyone, what
                        right would we have to say no?

                        The problem with the Identity heretics (apart from Arminian
                        Unitarianism) is that they deny that non-whites are human beings and
                        animalise their fellow man, just like Wodenite Pagans in relation to
                        non-Tuetons, Lubavitchers in relation to non-Jews, Nazis in relation
                        to Jews, etc. There is no sin in desiring the continuation of
                        British America as such, otherwise Cotton Mather would be a wicked
                        man too, for desiring the same thing. There was no obligation on the
                        part of Americans to allow immigrants into the country, nor does
                        anyone have a right to join another country. These privilages were
                        granted to immigrants due to American benevolence.

                        As for all being equally sinful, this is wrong. All are totally
                        depraved in nature, but not in degree. We all as individuals have
                        different faults (and different virtues), the same seems to be true
                        on an ethnic level as well. Whites are great inventors, Asians are
                        great workers, Arabs are great disciplinerians, blacks are great
                        sportsmen and entertainers, and Jews are great scientists and
                        businessmen, et al. This is generalisation, but tends to work out in
                        the real world.

                        > Fred, you need to purge the Darwinism from you mentality. You
                        > still have the evolutionary cancer in your veins and do not know
                        > it. I pray to God that He will cleanse you from this poison.

                        This is totally uncalled for brother. You are one of my favourite
                        contributors here, but I don't appreciate ad hominem. There is no
                        Darwinism in my mind at all. I have argued strictly from a YEC point
                        of view and subscribe to Geocentrism. Darwinists see other races as
                        primates (if they espouse Spencerian racial views) who are unevolved
                        like their imaginary Cro-Magnons. I see all people as coming through
                        Noah, blacks disadvantaged by colonialism and marxist leaders, not
                        skin colour, all people equally valuable, and hence worthy of
                        preservation, even if it means no Asian fantasy babe for me.lol. At
                        least I can still have a Hungarian or Italian fantasy babe.lol. I
                        seem to have struck a nerve here, I am truly sorry if I caused you
                        any offense, but I assure you I won't be morphing into a Klansman
                        anytime soon. Kay?
                        >
                        >
                        > Your Brother in
                        > Christ our King
                        > who was born a Jew,

                        Yes, and I like these folks.

                        >
                        > Edgar Ibarra
                        > Mexica of Mayan blood
                        > mixed w/ Spanish blood
                        >
                        Due to violent conquest of your Incan lands, brother. More
                        providence than grace.

                        All the best to you,
                        Fred.

                        >
                        > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Fred blahous"
                        > <fritzbau@y...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > G'day again, Edgar.
                        > >
                        > > This story is absolutely priceless. I would have loved to see
                        the
                        > > professors face after being ignored the whole class through. Now
                        > > there is a case of contumacy I can enjoy!
                        > >
                        > > On the issue of integration though, I would tend to disagree. I
                        > feel
                        > > that the last 150 years has shown that black and white will
                        never
                        > be
                        > > able to live under one government and that the best solution
                        would
                        > > be national seperation by way of an African-American kingdom,
                        > > perhaps Michigan. Under the current system, blacks have zero
                        > chance
                        > > of getting a brother to rule over them in accordence with Moses
                        > > instructions to the Israelites. This could be partly responsible
                        > for
                        > > the continuing degraded state of African-American people. When
                        God
                        > > assigned the territories and boundaries of man, the black man
                        was
                        > > placed in Africa, and the only reason they came to America was
                        > > because of the sinful practise of slaving. Since it is too late
                        to
                        > > send them to Liberia as advocated by Lincoln, black self rule in
                        > > their own portion of America would probably be the best
                        solution.
                        > >
                        > > Slavery, segregation, and integration all have one thing in
                        > common;
                        > > they deny blacks the right to form their own government and
                        > practise
                        > > self-determination. In Australia, we had a policy of
                        assimilation
                        > in
                        > > regards to Aboriginals which snatched children away from the
                        > mothers
                        > > and tried to compel Aborigines to marry only whites with the
                        > > intention of "breeding out" the black blood. Intermarriage can
                        be
                        > > used as a weapon of war every bit as destructive of a people as
                        > > sword and culvering (pistol). Our commonwealth is only now
                        coming
                        > to
                        > > terms with the issues of self-determination and treaty with
                        > > Aboriginals, similar to the issues with Native American tribes
                        in
                        > > the USA who were denied their Indian states by atheistic
                        > (definitely
                        > > not Puritan) armies in the 19th century.
                        > >
                        > > While I would not consider it a fellowship issue, I believe the
                        > best
                        > > thing for believers to do is seperate into their own kingdoms
                        and
                        > > produce after their own kind, just like the plants and animals.
                        > >
                        > > All the best to you,
                        > > Fred.
                        > >
                        > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A.
                        Ibarra
                        > > Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at
                        Plymouth
                        > > > > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke
                        heart-
                        > > felt
                        > > > > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as
                        yesterday
                        > > when
                        > > > > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing
                        and
                        > > > > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native
                        > American
                        > > was
                        > > > > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with
                        > the
                        > > > > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the
                        > Mayflower
                        > > > > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right.
                        > Blessings
                        > > > from
                        > > > > it continue to this day.
                        > > >
                        > > > The above reminded me of an event that occurred while I was at
                        > > > California State University of Fullerton taking Latin American
                        > > > Studies. In this class, we were "blessed" with a wacky
                        > professor
                        > > > who lacked the erudition to be teaching at a University. This
                        > > guy,
                        > > > in his 60's I think, one day made the statement in class,
                        which
                        > > was
                        > > > predominately Latino, and he was too, that when the Puritans
                        > > landed
                        > > > at Cape Cod they refused to intermarry with the Indigenous
                        folk
                        > > and
                        > > > that is why they brought their own women and called themselves
                        > > > Puritans. Now, wait before you react it gets worse. This
                        > > > knucklehead Professor then said they were bigots and racists
                        > > because
                        > > > of this and that is why they were called Puritans, you see to
                        > keep
                        > > > their blood pure! Now, I was not sure how to react at first
                        > > whether
                        > > > to laugh at his idiotic statement or to get angry for
                        > > > misrepresenting the Puritans and what that term meant. He
                        then
                        > > went
                        > > > on to say he was writing a book about this! Right when I was
                        > > going
                        > > > to respond, another student responded. Now I remind you that
                        > most
                        > > > Latino university students are politcally left leaning in
                        > Southern
                        > > > California. So this astute student asked him if the Spainards
                        > > > intermixing with the indigenous people was a sign of not being
                        > > > racists on their part? This professor then fell, hook, line,
                        > and
                        > > > sinker!! He said YES! Oh, boy, I thought the class was going
                        > to
                        > > > lynch him right then and there, it almost turned violent
                        > literally.
                        > > >
                        > > > Why? Well you see the Spainards did not intermix with the
                        > > > indigenous because the latter wanted to. The Spaniards raped
                        > the
                        > > > women, murdered the husbands, and ensalved the entire
                        population
                        > > and
                        > > > then vast cultures and civilizations were methodically wiped
                        out
                        > > by
                        > > > the Spainards via war & biological warfare (small pox). The
                        > > asutute
                        > > > and learned "Latino" knows this and for us that embrace our
                        > > > indigenous heritage and culture we ensure that the Spainish
                        > > > conquerors are not ennobled or glorified. Sure they wiped out
                        > > pagan
                        > > > religion that included human sacrifice and cannabalism and
                        sure
                        > I
                        > > > know that God used Spain to bring His judgment on them. As
                        God
                        > > used
                        > > > the Assyrians against Israel and then judged Assyria for doing
                        > > what
                        > > > they did to Israel, so God I discern from reading the history
                        of
                        > > the
                        > > > period did the same on Spain. If it were not for the
                        religious
                        > > > beliefs of the Mexicas (what many call Aztecs) and their
                        > religious
                        > > > presupposition to warfare, then Cortes and his lackeys would
                        > have
                        > > > been wiped out and Mexico would not have been conquered so
                        > easily.
                        > > > And yes, Spain replaced one form of idolatry with another and
                        > the
                        > > > genocide against the indigenous continues to this day, both
                        > > > physically and psychologically. While it is true that they
                        > > > practiced human sacrifice, it is equally true that the Spanish
                        > > > conquest ushered in the largest and most horrible genocide
                        ever
                        > > > recorded in history. It was larger than the holocaust against
                        > the
                        > > > Jews of WWII as hundreds of millions were wiped out. This was
                        a
                        > > > sacrifice of humans on the part of the Spainish in the name of
                        > the
                        > > > Catholic Kings, the Pope, and Jesus Christ. Hence the barrier
                        > to
                        > > > the Gospel among the younger educated Latinos in the USA.
                        > > >
                        > > > So back to my story. After several minutes of shouting at
                        the
                        > > > prof. on the part of the students and several adjectives in
                        > front
                        > > of
                        > > > this guy's name, everyone settled down. At which point, a
                        > student
                        > > > said, "then praise God for the Puritans for NOT raping and
                        > > murdering
                        > > > the Indians"! I then clarified to everyone why the Puritans
                        > were
                        > > > named Puritans and what that meant. I also told them about
                        the
                        > > > evangelistic method of the Puritans, of preaching and teaching
                        > and
                        > > > NOT of raping and killing in the name of God. The students
                        > > actually
                        > > > enjoyed this and were interested on what I had said. The
                        > > Professor
                        > > > was ignored for the rest of the time and we had a good time
                        > > > conversing about the Puritans and what they held to.
                        > > >
                        > > > All this to say, that, we must always ensure that when we
                        > are
                        > > > proclaiming the Gospel, especially to those not part of one's
                        > > > culture, that the Gospel must be presented in such a way that
                        > the
                        > > > culture of the presenter is NOT brought across as superior
                        than
                        > > that
                        > > > of the listener nor that the Gospel is a means to have one's
                        > > culture
                        > > > conqueror that of the other. In all reality, everyone's
                        culture
                        > > > should be molded and shaped by the Gospel of Jesus Christ and
                        in
                        > > > that sense, yes it should conquer the culture of every
                        > > civilization
                        > > > in the world. Sadly that is not the case today, even of the
                        > > United
                        > > > States of America, where pluralism is the staple of Christian
                        > > > churches and all things American. It is a sad state of affairs
                        > > when
                        > > > two "ethnic" groups that live in the same nation and speak the
                        > > very
                        > > > same language, when both are professing Christians, are
                        > segregated
                        > > > in "white" and "black" churches. The Gospel is supposed to
                        > > > supersede that and cause all sides to be color blind and not
                        > look
                        > > on
                        > > > the other as lighter or darker, but as a fellow brother in
                        Jesus
                        > > > Christ (when that is the case) and willing to worship in the
                        > same
                        > > > meeting place, have true Christian fellowship without taking
                        pot
                        > > > shoots at one another's culture, intermarry, and etc. Else,
                        it
                        > > will
                        > > > be hard to convince others that Christianity isn't the "white
                        > > man's
                        > > > religion".
                        > > >
                        > > > I personnally love to learn of different cultures and
                        respect
                        > > > that which I find wholesome in other cultures. It is
                        > fascinating
                        > > > what isolated people groups, post flood, accomplished across
                        the
                        > > > globe. The ingenuity and accomplishments of almost every
                        > culture
                        > > is
                        > > > a testimony of God's image in man, although marred, and the
                        law
                        > of
                        > > > nature and of His commandments can be seen if looked at
                        closely.
                        > > >
                        > > > Your Mexica brother in Christ,
                        > > >
                        > > > Edgar Ibarra
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "nodelink7"
                        > > > <gjgriff@y...> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Imperfect thought the Separatist and Anglican settlers at
                        > > Plymouth
                        > > > may
                        > > > > have been, it's remarkable that they remain in remembrance
                        > each
                        > > > year
                        > > > > when the USA observes its Thanksgiving Day. There were
                        native
                        > > > > Americans here earlier and earlier European settlements
                        > > including
                        > > > St.
                        > > > > Augustine (Florida) and Jamestown (Virginia) but it is the
                        > early
                        > > > > settlers at Plymouth who are kept most in remembrance.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > These travellers to Cape Cod (They made their first landing
                        at
                        > > Cape
                        > > > > Code but soon afterwards became settlers at Plymouth.) made
                        a
                        > > > compact
                        > > > > / covenant and constituted their civil government by it.
                        The
                        > > first
                        > > > > two purposes of their voyage from England to Massachusetts
                        > (then
                        > > > > considered to be northern Virginia) were the Glory of God and
                        > > > > Advancement of the Christian Faith. They covenanted
                        > themselves
                        > > and
                        > > > > formed their civil government for the furtherance of these
                        > > > purposes.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > I'll venture that the remembrance of the settlement at
                        Plymouth
                        > > > > (Massachusetts), that began in 1620, continued to evoke
                        heart-
                        > > felt
                        > > > > thanksgiving and God-honoring prayers as recently as
                        yesterday
                        > > when
                        > > > > Thanksgiving Day was observed in the USA. By the blessing
                        and
                        > > > > providence of God, Squanto, an English-speaking native
                        > American
                        > > was
                        > > > > there at Plymouth to help them negotiate a peace treaty with
                        > the
                        > > > > Wampanoag Tribe. The making of the Covenant called the
                        > Mayflower
                        > > > > Compact was not wrong but rather excellent and right.
                        > Blessings
                        > > > from
                        > > > > it continue to this day.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > From the Mayflower Compact:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "...Having undertaken for the Glory of God, and Advancement
                        of
                        > > the
                        > > > > Christian Faith, and the Honour of our King and Country, a
                        > > voyage
                        > > > to
                        > > > > plant the first colony in the northern parts of Virginia; do
                        > by
                        > > > these
                        > > > > presents, solemnly and mutually in the Presence of God and
                        one
                        > of
                        > > > > another, COVENANT and combine ourselves together into a
                        civil
                        > > Body
                        > > > > Politick, for our better Ordering and Preservation, and
                        > > > Furtherance of
                        > > > > the Ends aforesaid; And by Virtue hereof to enact,
                        constitute,
                        > > and
                        > > > > frame, such just and equal Laws, Ordinances, Acts,
                        > Constitutions
                        > > > and
                        > > > > Offices, from time to time, as shall be thought most meet and
                        > > > > convenient for the General good of the Colony; unto which we
                        > > > promise
                        > > > > all due submission and obedience..."
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > >
                        (http://www.historyplace.com/unitedstates/revolution/mayflower.htm)
                        > > > >
                        > > > > GG
                        > > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • forisraelssake
                        ... I wanted to enquire if you don t mind about geocentrism. Do you mean it in the sense that the earth is centre of the universe in some important
                        Message 11 of 14 , Dec 2, 2005
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                          > Darwinism in my mind at all. I have argued strictly from a YEC point
                          > of view and subscribe to Geocentrism. Darwinists see other races as

                          I wanted to enquire if you don't mind about geocentrism. Do you mean
                          it in the sense that the earth is centre of the universe in some
                          important cosmological way, or that the earth is the centre of the
                          solar system (i.e. anti-heliocentrism) upon which the sun orbits?

                          I am just trying to see if your gripe is more with big bang cosmology
                          or more with the model of Copernicus, Galileo and Kepler. If the
                          latter, any good readings available online from your perspective?

                          Chris Tylor
                          RPNA
                          Edmonton, AB
                        • puritanone
                          ... this I ... when ... surprises ... you re ... Nikolai, please show from scripture why Fred s view is wrong. Calling it outrageously racist is no argument.
                          Message 12 of 14 , Dec 2, 2005
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                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Nikolai
                            <psalmos@s...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Fred blahous wrote:
                            >
                            > <snip>
                            >
                            > > the best solution would
                            > > be national seperation by way of an African-American kingdom,
                            > > perhaps Michigan.
                            >
                            > I've been lurking here for quite some time but statements like
                            this I
                            > can't really let to pass by. Fred, I believe this is the most
                            > outrageously racist statement I have read since I don't remember
                            when
                            > and this being a Christian list, and a Reformed one to boot,
                            surprises
                            > me even more. I hope though that you don't really understand what
                            you're
                            > talking about or what kind of consequences ideas like these bring.
                            >
                            > Nikolai Razouvayev
                            > Evangelical Presbyterian Church
                            > Brisbane, Australia
                            >


                            Nikolai, please show from scripture why Fred's view is wrong.
                            Calling it "outrageously racist" is no argument.

                            For example, I see nothing in scripture that would say the
                            aborigines of Australia should not be allowed their own separate
                            nation on the island of Australia. Do you? Where?

                            Don't get me wrong- I am not advocating "racially" pure nations.
                            But neither do I see it as sin if a given people want national self-
                            determination where non-sinful national characteristics are
                            preserved, and not be forced into some melting pot empire. The
                            issue is not that one 'tribe' is better than another, but the issue
                            is that 'tribes' should not be forced to give up all tribal identity
                            simply because they have become Christian. That said, our first
                            loyalty must be to Christ and fellow Christians. I have more in
                            common with a Zulu Christian than a white American non-Christian.
                            But when there are reformed Christian nations, I see nothing wrong
                            with there being a predominantly Zulu state and a predominantly
                            Afrikaaner state. Do you? Why, for example, must South Africa or
                            Zimbabwe be one country where one 'tribe' bullies another 'tribe',
                            instead of divided up along 'tribal' lines?

                            - Parnell McCarter
                          • Nikolai
                            ... Parnell, I happen to opine the burden is on Fred to show a scriptural basis for his, again in my opinion, novel idea of racially segregated state. As it
                            Message 13 of 14 , Dec 3, 2005
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                              puritanone wrote:

                              > Nikolai, please show from scripture why Fred's view is wrong.

                              Parnell, I happen to opine the burden is on Fred to show a scriptural
                              basis for his, again in my opinion, novel idea of racially segregated
                              state. As it stands, since I'm not aware of either an explicit
                              scriptural command to form racially segregated states or a valid
                              deduction by good and necessary consequence from scripture that would
                              imply such a command, I think it's only proper to expect, before I may
                              raise any objections, to see what grounds, if any, such an idea has.

                              I would also be most grateful if Fred clarified his usage of the word
                              "race." "Race" could be used in several different ways, the last thing I
                              want is to talk about apples while all along we were talking about
                              oranges not to mention pears and other fruits might end up being
                              discussed without anybody being aware of what's going on.


                              > Calling it "outrageously racist" is no argument.

                              I agree. I haven't been presenting any arguments. Fred's post appeared
                              to be an expression of his personal opinion. But so was my remark. Based
                              on the contents of the post, I think his suggestion, as far as I
                              understand it, is outrageously racist for it undoubtedly implies racial
                              discrimination which is what essentially constitutes racism. Please
                              note, I have no problem with discrimination, lawful discrimination that
                              is, but obviously not all discrimination is lawful. In other words, all
                              racism is discrimination but not all discrimination is racism.

                              > For example, I see nothing in scripture that would say the
                              > aborigines of Australia should not be allowed their own separate
                              > nation on the island of Australia. Do you? Where?

                              No I don't, nor do I see anything in scripture that would say uninspired
                              poetry should not be sung in worship. That being the case, I assume
                              since such worship practice is not commanded, it is therefore forbidden.
                              Why forming of states should be done any differently? I understand the
                              distinction between worship practice and forming of governments but I
                              think it is no simple curiosity matter to ask someone like Fred why
                              racial segregation should be employed in forming of a sovereign state?


                              > Don't get me wrong- I am not advocating "racially" pure nations.

                              OK, what exactly is then being advocated in the post we are discussing?
                              It has been suggested that African-American citizens of the United
                              States should be given a territory within it to form a new state. Now, a
                              trivial question is, why Michigan? On a more serious note, how are we to
                              determine, a) what is African-American and, b) once we know what it is
                              that makes up an African-American, how do we proceed to separate those
                              who are and those who are not such? Perhaps a DNA test? And by the way,
                              why African-Americans should have their own state in the US? What about
                              Chinese, Italians, Irish, Jews, Russians and whoever else we can put on
                              the list? What is it exactly that makes African-Americans in Fred's
                              opinion deserving a state but Irish we should leave empty handed? I'm
                              sure Russians would love to have certain parts of NYC to be run by
                              "brothers" and sometimes even by "sisters" if you know what I mean.


                              > But neither do I see it as sin if a given people want national self-
                              > determination where non-sinful national characteristics are
                              > preserved, and not be forced into some melting pot empire.

                              I have no problem with that. I doubt though that Michigan has any
                              "national characteristics" distinctively different from those of Florida
                              or California. Quebec or Chechnya may have some legitimate claims to
                              such distinctives relative to other parts of the given countries, but
                              even they never consider their claims to have any racial content,
                              although Chechnya should probably be excluded from this remark. The
                              separatist movement of Quebec, for example, would have been dead before
                              it started if its goal was to create a racially French state (whatever
                              that means). The movement is successful precisely because it has no
                              racial segregation of any kind in view, or at least not publicly.

                              Regards,
                              Nikolai
                              EPC Brisbane
                            • trygvesson@aol.com
                              In a message dated 12/2/2005 10:58:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, fritzbau@yahoo.com.au writes: I have argued strictly from a YEC point of view and subscribe to
                              Message 14 of 14 , Dec 3, 2005
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                                In a message dated 12/2/2005 10:58:16 AM Eastern Standard Time, fritzbau@... writes:
                                "I have argued strictly from a YEC point of view and subscribe to Geocentrism."
                                 
                                Fred,
                                 
                                Greetings! I have a few follow ups and add-ons to my prior questions, when I asked yesterday "Just curious, did you come to your geo-centrism in part through any influence from South African Philip Stodt? Also, do you subscribe to the flat earth too?"
                                 
                                I also wanted to ask, are you upholding a pure geocentric system, in which all planets orbit a stationary Earth as proposed by Ptolemy and Aristotle, or are you upholding a very modified geocentric system such as that proposed by Tyco Brahe, in which all the planets orbit the sun, and it is the sun that then orbits the earth, and carries the planets along with it?
                                 
                                It is so rare to meet a live geocentrist that I would like to take this opportunity to further and better understand your view :-)
                                 
                                I met Philip Stodt years ago when, during a Dr. Nigel Lee conference, he did a half day lecture and presentation of geocentrism at Christ College here in Lynchburg Va. I had some opportunity to interact with him, yet did not get to discuss a great deal as I was quite busy at the time. I was not then and am still not persuaded of the view, but I would like to better understand it from one who believes it. I would also like to better understand the difference between those who hold to geocentrism but not a flat earth and those who do who believe the two views to be hermeneutically inseparable.
                                 
                                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                                Christopher Coombes
                                Lynchburg Reformed Presbyterian Fellowship,
                                Lynchburg, VA
                                Member, Triangle RPC
                                RPCNA


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