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  • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
    Whit, SWRB and other stores as well. Try a Google search to get the best price. No Covenanters in Spain, the Protestant Reformation was totally squashed and
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 10, 2005
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      Whit,

      SWRB and other stores as well. Try a Google search to get the best
      price.

      No Covenanters in Spain, the Protestant Reformation was totally
      squashed and short-lived. Protestantism is slowly coming into Spain,
      but mostly the Charismatics & Baptists. There is a small Prebyterian
      church there.

      Thanks,

      Edgar

      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Whit"
      <covie_pres.1646@v...> wrote:
      >
      > > First Thomas M'Crie, the church biographer that re-introduced the
      > Presbyterians of his day to John Knox, also the author of the
      History
      > of the Reformation in Spain.
      >
      > Where can I purchase that book? SWRB? I have always wanted to read
      > about Spain's relation to the reforming Church. (I was there last
      year
      > and could not find any good Covenanter church or society. Hence, I
      > elected for private worship and didn't attend church that Sunday.)
      >
      > Whit
      >
    • Fred blahous
      G day Edgar! Yes, Spain was the home of the Vatican Inquisition and invented the Iron Maiden. Unfortunately for reformers there, Ferdinand and Isabella
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 12, 2005
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        G'day Edgar!

        Yes, Spain was the home of the Vatican Inquisition and invented the
        Iron Maiden. Unfortunately for reformers there, Ferdinand and
        Isabella happened to be on the throne, and they were mad on
        uniformity in worship of the beast. Also in torturing Indians and
        extracting gold under the fictitious "Donation". Americans fought
        various wars against Spain, under the crown of London and later
        under the presidents, because of the brutal history towards the
        natives.

        Chris Columbus was the pirate "buccaneer" who made it all possible
        for the Castillians to claim the New World and even threaten the
        throne of Elizabeth, and yet Americans actually have a "holiday" to
        celebrate the man they fought against. Weird! At least the former
        Spanish and Portugese lands know better.

        What a pity their never was a reformation in Spain, Austria, or
        Italy. It would have been great to see Charles V side with Luther
        and claim all of Central Europe, the Balkans, Germania, Borgia lands
        and Castillian lands from the Popes and Ottomans. Rome would have
        been totally surrounded, and cut off from France and Poland. Oh
        well. Maybe next time!

        Towards a Covenanted Presbyterian Re-unified Western Church.
        Fred.

        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
        Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
        >
        > Whit,
        >
        > SWRB and other stores as well. Try a Google search to get the
        best
        > price.
        >
        > No Covenanters in Spain, the Protestant Reformation was totally
        > squashed and short-lived. Protestantism is slowly coming into
        Spain,
        > but mostly the Charismatics & Baptists. There is a small
        Prebyterian
        > church there.
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Edgar
        >
        > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Whit"
        > <covie_pres.1646@v...> wrote:
        > >
        > > > First Thomas M'Crie, the church biographer that re-introduced
        the
        > > Presbyterians of his day to John Knox, also the author of the
        > History
        > > of the Reformation in Spain.
        > >
        > > Where can I purchase that book? SWRB? I have always wanted to
        read
        > > about Spain's relation to the reforming Church. (I was there
        last
        > year
        > > and could not find any good Covenanter church or society.
        Hence, I
        > > elected for private worship and didn't attend church that
        Sunday.)
        > >
        > > Whit
        > >
        >
      • Fred blahous
        Not likely to happen unless there is a major revival in the Southern lands. I just don t see Mad Dog Adair and Gerry Adams allowing anyone to live in peace
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 12, 2005
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          Not likely to happen unless there is a major revival in the Southern
          lands. I just don't see "Mad Dog" Adair and Gerry Adams allowing
          anyone to live in peace if they can help it. I wish they would both
          follow the example of Bobby Sands and go on hungar strike. I don't
          think either would be missed.

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Whit"
          <covie_pres.1646@v...> wrote:
          >
          > Charles II as King of Ireland? Jumping Jehosaphat! Charles II is
          > nothing more than a Ursurper both regarding the Covenanted
          > Reformation (after he broke the Covenants) and Ireland. I long
          for
          > the day of a re-united Ireland (i.e, re-united under the
          Covenants)
          > and a re-united Three Kingdoms.
          >
          > Whit
          >
          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
          > Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
          > >
          > > ¡Bienvienido Hermano!
          > >
          > > The term "Steelites" was given to the Covenanters that
          continue
          > > to adhere to the entire Second Reformation of 1638-1649
          (inclusive)
          > > and to the faithful Covenanters during the "Killing Times" of
          1660-
          > > 1688, of today. The few Covenanters that were left at the
          > > Revolution of King William of Orange, refused to join the re-
          > > established Church of Scotland, since it was re-established on
          the
          > > King's terms and not on the terms of the Church. In 1650, when
          > King
          > > Charles II assumed the throne to Scotland, England, & Ireland,
          he
          > > swore that he would uphold the Solemn League and Covenant and
          that
          > > he would punish any who sought to overturn it. His taking the
          > > throne to be King was dependant upon his faithfulness to the
          Solemn
          > > League and Covenant. He swore that he would maintain it and to
          > > break it meant he no longer could sit as King. Well, he broke
          it
          > > and unleashed a brutal persecution against any that stood in his
          > > way. King James II, his Papist brother, continued it. Richard
          > > Cameron and other faithful Covenanters resisted the King and
          > > continued to worship God as He had commanded and refused to go
          > along
          > > with the King's usurpation. The civil magistrates became
          ruthless
          > > tyrants and used all means necessary (torturing the laypeople,
          > taxes
          > > (also known as the cess), confiscation of property,
          imprisonment,
          > > rape of women, and murder) to hunt down and kill the ministers
          of
          > > Christ that still held the Covenants. King Charles passed the
          Acts
          > > Recissory stating that the Covenants were "seditious,
          treasonable,
          > > and against his crown, the very covenant he had sworn to uphold,
          > the
          > > very covenant that defined him as a lawful civil magistrate and
          > > allowed him to be lawfully on the throne. At the Revolution
          > > Settlement, King William did not rescind the Acts Recessiory and
          he
          > > set up the Church of Scotland on his terms. Only the
          Westminster
          > > Confession of Faith was allowed to be the standard of the church
          > > without allowance of the others. When he and parliament (most
          of
          > > who were part of the persecution) had laid out how the Church of
          > > Scotland was to be restored, he called a GA the following year
          and
          > > told them how they were to be structured.
          > >
          > > The few remaining Covenanters protested and would not join
          the
          > > vast majority of already sold out/indulged ministers (these were
          > > those that made compromises to King Charles & King James to
          spare
          > > their lives, in exchange they had to submit to the Bishops and
          > state
          > > that the Covenants were treasonable and they held no allegiance
          to
          > > them, among other things). When 3 ministers from the
          Covenanters
          > > tried to persuade the other ministers to press the King to
          rescind
          > > the Acts Recissory and renew the Solemn League and Covenant and
          > make
          > > the Standards the charter of the Church as it was during 1638-
          1649,
          > > the 3 were rebuked and scolded. The 3 submitted and joined the
          > > Revolution Church and the most prolonged division in
          Presbyterian
          > > history began. That being the Covenanters, that remained
          faithful
          > > to the Church of Scotland and the Westminster Standards of 1638-
          > 1649
          > > vs. the Revolution Church, which was a brand new Presbyterian
          > church
          > > with her own new constitution and charter.
          > >
          > > All but two Presbyterian churches in the United States
          descend
          > > from this Revolution Settlement Church (In Europe it is a
          similar
          > > situation). The two that do not are the Reformed Presbyterian
          > > Church of North America (RPCNA) and the Reformed Presbytery of
          > North
          > > America (RPNA).
          > >
          > > Here is where we get to the heart of your question. The
          RPCNA
          > > held to the Covenanters' testimony until they changed their
          > > constitution in the mid-1800's and no longer held that the
          Solemn
          > > League & Covenant was binding upon the United States of America,
          > > although I am not sure if they still believe it is on the United
          > > Kingdom. They also adopted other items that were contrary to
          the
          > > Standards of Westminster and further broke their Covenanted
          oath.
          > > They continue to believe in the ordinance of Covenanting, so
          > > therefore they call themselves Covenanters because of that, but
          > they
          > > do not hold to what the original Covenanters held to. During
          this
          > > defection of the RPCNA, one of their ministers along with some
          > other
          > > Church Officers protested this defection. When there was no
          desire
          > > on the part of the Synod to repent of their Covenant breaking,
          they
          > > left the RPCNA to continue the faithful Covenanted Church and
          > formed
          > > the Reformed Presbytery of North America (RPNA). The leading
          > person
          > > was David Steele. These officers sought to maintain the
          Covenanted
          > > Testimony and to continue to uphold the Covenanted Reformation
          > > against all defection and back-sliding.
          > >
          > > So, when the Puritan Reformed Church in Edmonton rediscovered
          > > these Covenanted truths and decided to adopt them and thereby
          > return
          > > to the faithful paths of true Biblical Presbyterianism they
          > repented
          > > of their participation as a Church of being part of the schism
          of
          > > the Revolution Church/Settlement and of having backslidden from
          the
          > > Covenanted Second Reformation (1638-1649) and having adopted
          > > doctrines contrary to the Covenanted Second Reformation Church.
          > > Many decried them and wrote extensive papers against these
          Elders
          > > and were named "Steelites" by their opponents for being
          followers
          > of
          > > David Steele. Many attributing the doctrinal distinctives as
          novel
          > > and made up by David Steele. Only a very few of our opponents
          > > recognize that we are Camerionian Covenanters, i.e. those who
          hold
          > > still that the Solemn League and Covenant is binding upon the
          UK,
          > > USA, Canada, and Australia (all of these being offspring of UK
          and
          > > since the Solemn League & Covenant bound all of her posterity,
          so
          > > then these nations are so bound). I have all of this (the
          > Standards
          > > of Westminster) translated into Spanish:
          www.espanol.albanycrpc.org
          > >
          > > I am a member of the RPNA and live in Albany NY. Our doctrine
          is
          > > NOT new as even a brief glance of history pre-1700's will most
          > > readily demonstrate. The main problem in Presbyterianism today
          is
          > > the rampant mindset of American pluralism and toleration of
          other
          > > religions. This is most visible in the revision of the
          Westminster
          > > Standards in 1782, of ch. 23. In there it is not
          Presbyterianism
          > > that is of divine right and to be the only recognized Church
          form
          > of
          > > government in the Country nor the Westminster doctrines either,
          per
          > > se. Instead the new revision states that the government will
          > > acknowledge ALL Christian denominations and protect them all.
          Now
          > > the Orthodox Presbyterian Church, the Presbyterian Church in
          > > America, and another (I cannot recall which) are the larger of
          the
          > > Presbyterian Churches that hold to this. Most of the smaller
          > > Presbyterian churches do not, including the RPNA, RPCNA, the
          PRC,
          > > and other smaller ones. Although they are all offspring of the
          > > Revolution Church (Except the RPCNA & RPNA).
          > >
          > > The RPNA seeks to promote unity in the body of Christ WITHOUT
          > > compromising the Covenanted Reformation Attainments of 1638-
          1649.
          > > The Church of then achieved a Covenanted Uniformity of religion
          > > wherein all in the 3 kingdoms were of One Doctrine, One Worship,
          > One
          > > Government, and One Discipline and based on the Solemn League
          and
          > > Covenant, which Covenant was in keeping with the Holy
          Scriptures.
          > > Sure not ALL in the UK did join in this unity, but it was the
          brief
          > > reality and fulfillment of John 17. This Covenant was promoted
          and
          > > upheld by all the Westminster Divines, including the Scottish
          > > Comissioners: Alexander Henderson, George Gillespie, Samuel
          > > Rutherford & etc. One of the English Covenanters that is well
          > > known, Christopher Love died in prison under Oliver Cromwell,
          > > because he refused to renounce the Covenant. The King was about
          to
          > > martyr Samuel Rutherford for the same, but God took him a few
          days
          > > before the King could kill him.
          > >
          > > It is a hard stand for us to be separated from our brethren
          at
          > > this time, but we believe, as did the Covenanters of old that
          > > loyalty to God and His Truth is to be valued and upheld above
          calls
          > > to compromise for the sake of a shaky and covenant breaking
          unity
          > > NOT based on that maintaince of Truth, even if it means a low-
          > > intensity persecution or ridiculing on the part of fellow
          > brethren.
          > > The Covenanters during the "Killing Times" suffered more from
          > fellow
          > > Indulged Presbyterians than by the ravenous King and his
          murderous
          > > soldiers.
          > >
          > > Below are links to historical works written by ministers.
          The
          > > first two are written by ministers of the Reformed Presbyterian
          > > Church of Scotland, the sister church to the RPCNA, back in the
          > > 1800's. The first is brief summary of the history and rise of
          the
          > > Reformed Presbyterians (another term used to describe
          Covenanters)
          > > and the second outlines the reality of the Revolution Settlement
          > and
          > > what it brought about. The third is a work written by
          Covenanters
          > > in 1806 and what they stood for and why they remained separate
          (you
          > > will find that what the RPNA holds to today is exactly what they
          > did
          > > in 1806 and this PRE-DATES David Steele). The last one is the
          > > official history from the beginning of the First Reformation up
          to
          > > and including the founding of the RPNA under David Steele. It
          is
          > > one of the Covenanter's Standards today (I plan to translate
          this
          > > late next year or early 2007, if the Lord wills and gives me the
          > > ability).
          > >
          > > http://www.covenanter.org/RPScotland/Principles/lecture1.htm
          > >
          > > http://www.covenanter.org/RPScotland/Principles/lecture4.htm
          > >
          > > www.covenanter.org/RefPres/shortaccount.htm
          > >
          > > www.gutenberg.org/dirs/1/3/2/0/13200/13200.txt
          > >
          > > Now there is another Covenanter group, which the Moderador of
          this
          > e-
          > > group belongs too, but they do not have any Church Officers,
          > > although we in the RPNA love these brethren very dearly and we
          are
          > > friends. Gerry (the Moderator), I count as a friend and fellow
          > > upholder of the Covenanter Testimony. Why were are not
          together, I
          > > rather not touch that here, now. Suffice it to say we are a lot
          > > closer than many think, IMO. I thought I would just mention
          that
          > > however, to be fair that the RPNA are not the only Camerionian
          > > Covenanters still around.
          > >
          > > I know that my post will generate many upset posts and make re-
          > > stir debates long debated on this e-group once again. That
          seems
          > to
          > > be the legacy of the schism of the Revolution Church that
          plagues
          > > the Covenanted Church of Scotland BIBLICALLY established and
          > > promoted by faithful General Assemblies between 1638-1649, to
          this
          > > day. Not until the decendents of the Revolution Church
          recognize
          > > their continuing schism and covenant-breaking from the lawfully
          and
          > > faithfully established Church, established upon Biblical
          examples
          > of
          > > true Covenanted Reformation, and repent of it and rejoin the
          > > Covenanted Church of Scotland, as we of the RPNA have, will the
          > > debate end.
          > >
          > > I hope that aids to answer your question. I am sure many
          more
          > > will arise, however.
          > >
          > > Hermano, lo siento sí se oye duro mi carta, pero la Verdad
          sigue
          > > siendo atacado, y soy firme en mantenerlo. Por otro tema,
          ¿conoce
          > > Ud a Ismael Nova? Se comunicó conmigo, pero su correo
          electrónico
          > > no fue aceptado cuando le conteste. Sí lo conoce, porque es de
          > > Colombia y mencionó que es de una iglesia Presbiteriana pequeña,
          > > como Ud lo mencionó, ¿favor de decirle que me escriba de nuevo?
          > > También me encantaría tener díagolo con Ud y otros hermanos de
          > > Colombia. He aquí mí correo personal: PuritanPresbyterian@y...
          > >
          > > No offense brethren, I am bilingual and always speak both
          > > languages. I do not believe in American assimilation nor in
          keeping
          > > my language and culture in my house alone and private. I reject
          > > that part of the Right Wing rubbish (to put it mildly) that
          comes
          > > across the talk radio and by other American Nationalists (and I
          was
          > > a U.S. Marine for 8 yrs), I know who were the first immigrants
          > here,
          > > pilgrims.
          > > Assimilation, HAH!!!
          > >
          > >
          > > Yours in Christ Jesus,
          > > in whom this Darwinian
          > > separation of peoples
          > > is null and void,
          > >
          > > Edgar Ibarra
          > > Communicant Member
          > > Reformed Presbytery of North America
          > > Albany, New York
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In
          > > covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "theophilus_murray"
          > > <theophilus_murray@y...> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Hello, I am new here. I am from Colombia and I belong to a
          > > > Presbyterian Church in my country.
          > > >
          > > > I would like to know what is the different between the
          Steelites
          > > and
          > > > the other covenanters?
          > > >
          > > > Thanks.
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • berean1993
          ... Maybe SWRB. See also: How to Find a Book http://members.aol.com/lettermen2/findbook.html and Reformed Publishers Online
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 27, 2005
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            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Whit"
            <covie_pres.1646@v...> wrote:
            >
            > > First Thomas M'Crie, the church biographer that re-introduced the
            > Presbyterians of his day to John Knox, also the author of the History
            > of the Reformation in Spain.
            >
            > Where can I purchase that book? SWRB?

            Maybe SWRB.
            See also:
            How to Find a Book
            http://members.aol.com/lettermen2/findbook.html

            and

            Reformed Publishers Online
            http://members.aol.com/lettermen2/refpub.html





            I have always wanted to read
            > about Spain's relation to the reforming Church. (I was there last
            year
            > and could not find any good Covenanter church or society. Hence, I
            > elected for private worship and didn't attend church that Sunday.)
            >
            > Whit
            >
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