Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Steelites

Expand Messages
  • Larry Bump
    ... From: Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. ... Edgar, as usual, casts this particular part of the history according to
    Message 1 of 11 , Nov 6, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Edgar A. Ibarra Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@...>

      <snip, good stuff>

      > Here is where we get to the heart of your question. The RPCNA
      > held to the Covenanters' testimony until they changed their
      > constitution in the mid-1800's and no longer held that the Solemn
      > League & Covenant was binding upon the United States of America,
      > although I am not sure if they still believe it is on the United
      > Kingdom. They also adopted other items that were contrary to the
      > Standards of Westminster and further broke their Covenanted oath.

      Edgar, as usual, casts this particular part of the history according to his
      bias, and without the charity the other brothers (us) deserve. He (and the
      other Steelites) insist upon saying that we willfully defected, when the
      truth of the matter is that we, as a denomination, became convinced of
      certain errors within the WCF and sought to, as we should, continue the
      Reformation by becoming more and more consistent to the Biblical standards
      for the Church.

      There were mistakes made; some of which have been repaired, some of which
      are being repaired, and some that are beginning to be known. But to freeze
      the Church to a particular age, calling it perfect, is wrong in the face of
      a clear conviction that the secondary standards are wrong in a particular
      spot.

      Also, there is no way that the Covenants can, as they stand, be applied to
      the US states. They were not properly part of the covenanted lands, though
      some early Covenanters misunderstood the legal position of the colonies and
      sought to lay the Covenants upon them without altering them to fit the
      changed context. The Colonies were not part of England, but of the British
      Empire. Should the USA be under covenanats *very similar to* the Scottish
      Covenants? Absolutely, but we cannot see ourselves as wed because of
      someone elses' marriage vows.


      > I know that my post will generate many upset posts and make re-
      > stir debates long debated on this e-group once again. That seems to

      Not upset, just disappointed that you continue to misrepresent us as willful
      rebels rather than brothers seeking to be true to God and His Covenant(s),
      properly understood and applied..



      --
      Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
      Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
      Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 267.12.5 - Release Date: 10/24/2005
    • trygvesson@aol.com
      In a message dated 11/6/2005 8:57:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, ... debates long debated on this e-group once again.
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 6, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        In a message dated 11/6/2005 8:57:46 AM Eastern Standard Time, lbump@... writes:
        >> I know that my post will generate many upset posts and make re-stir debates long debated on this e-group once again.<<

        "Not upset, just disappointed that you continue to misrepresent us as willful rebels rather than brothers seeking to be true to God and His Covenant(s), properly understood and applied.."
         
        Edgar,
         
        Aye, I must agree with Elder Bump, and join him in being disappointed that you continue to misrepresent us as willful rebels rather than brothers seeking to be true to God and His Covenant.
         
        I would also add that the idea that some number of folks decided in the 1990s to declare themselves the real RP church and castigate all other historic confessional Presbyterian bodies to be backslidden covenant breakers, would be extremely funny were it not so very sad.
         
        I have heard report that when one of the Presbyterian denominations in Scotland received word in the early 2000s that there was a small group of people in Edmonton Canada declaring themselves to be the real Covenanters and only faithful Presbyterian church upholding the covenants, that their general assembly actually broke out in prolonged laughter.
         
        Edgar, perhaps this illustration might help you understand how this looks both funny and also sad to someone such as myself who grew in the faith by reading the writings and histories of the reformation:
         
        This is like Bob the dogsledder from Lake Laberge, Yukon, suddenly deciding he is really the last true spiritual descendant of the last Russian Czar Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov II. He further declares himself to be the true Czar Expatriate, the only legitimate and faithful Russian government, and demands all folk descended of Russian citizenship all throughout the world, no matter their actual country of birth or citizenship, and who's great great grandfathers wrote Cyrillic, to submit to their great great Russian ancestors debt of fealty to the Czar and by extension to him. All this, simply because he declares that he philosophically and spiritually holds to Nikolai Alexandrovich Romanov II's Czar beliefs.
         
        It would be like the guy with a smidgen of French blood who runs the local convenience store down the road from me declaring himself and a handful of others to be the true Huguenots simply because they stumble upon the Protestant Huguenots constitution and happen to agree with it, and they then proceed to declare any remaining Huguenots in France to be mere pretenders. No, what such a thing would make them, is a handful of Americans who happen to agree with Huguenot principles. Such would not at all make them the REAL Huguenot church!
         
        To my point, you are simply incapable of really upholding the SL&C. No, you disagree? Well, how are YOU really and actively upholding the SL&C and NC today? By being the discussion forum police? Do you think that is what the Scots really had in mind, or what the document demands? For an answer, I want more than yet another suggested link or another lengthy cut and paste job in terms of providing mere lip service. If you have the audacity to make the repeated accusations you make against us and continually accuse us as knowing covenant breakers and backsiders, then I think it is entirely fair to turn this around and ask the question, and I want to really know in your own words how YOU and those you know personally in the RPNA are really and actively upholding the SL&C and NC today. Not just lip service on the Internet by being the SL&C e-mail police, but how is this being done on a day to day basis?
         
        What are you doing according to your place and calling, in this common cause of religion, liberty, and peace of the kingdoms, to assist and defend all those that enter into or have entered into the League and Covenant? What are you currently doing for reformation and defense of religion, the honour and happiness of the King, and the peace and safety, of the three kingdoms of Scotland, England, and Ireland?
         
        Answer this honestly for yourself, not using a hermeneutic to interpret the obligations of the covenant that is similar in execution to how the Framework Hypothesis is used by the liberals to interpret Genesis, but really and honestly grammatically historically look at the parties and outlined obligations of the covenant, and explain to me how you actually fulfill those obligations.
         
        ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
        Christopher Coombes
        Lynchburg Reformed Presbyterian Fellowship,
        Lynchburg, VA
        Member, Triangle RPC
        RPCNA


                                                                        _
                                                                       / )
                                                     (\__/)         ( (
                                                      )    (           ) )
                                                   ={      }=       / /
                                                      )     `-------/ /
                                                     (               /
                                                      \              |
                                                      ,'\       ,    ,'
                                                      `-'\  ,---\   | \
                                                         _) )    `. \ /
                                                        (__/       ) )
                                                                  (_/
      • Larry Bump
        My first ancestor on this continent (Fortune, 1621) was Edouad Boumpasse, French Huguenot refugee from France, through Leyden then London. Maybe I could pull
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 6, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          My first ancestor on this continent (Fortune, 1621) was Edouad Boumpasse,
          French Huguenot refugee from France, through Leyden then London.

          Maybe I could pull this off?

          Wait a minute, does this mean I should be bound to any French covenants as
          well as Scot? This could get confusing.

          Larry

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: <trygvesson@...>

          > It would be like the guy with a smidgen of French blood who runs the
          local
          > convenience store down the road from me declaring himself and a handful
          of
          > others to be the true Huguenots simply because they stumble upon the
          Protestant
          > Huguenots constitution and happen to agree with it, and they then proceed
          to
          > declare any remaining Huguenots in France to be mere pretenders. No, what
          > such a thing would make them, is a handful of Americans who happen to
          agree with
          > Huguenot principles. Such would not at all make them the REAL Huguenot
          > church!




          --
          Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
          Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
          Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 267.12.5 - Release Date: 10/24/2005
        • gmw
          ... My first ancestor on this continent (Fortune, 1621) was Edouad Boumpasse, French Huguenot refugee from France, through Leyden then London. Maybe I could
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 6, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            Larry Bump wrote:
            -----
            My first ancestor on this continent (Fortune, 1621) was Edouad Boumpasse,
            French Huguenot refugee from France, through Leyden then London.

            Maybe I could pull this off?

            Wait a minute, does this mean I should be bound to any French covenants as
            well as Scot? This could get confusing.

            Larry
            ------

            Theophilus,

            What you are now witnessing is an elder of the Reformed Presbyterian
            Church of North America (called Covenanters) mocking the descending
            obligations of national covenants, one of the distinctive doctrines of
            their Church when it first came to America. This phenomena is something
            that puzzles me. They hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith, and
            yet testify against it, and they can assert the descending obligations
            of the National Covenant and the Solemn League and Covenant on a web
            page ( http://www.bright.net/~covvie/who.html -- "Two basic covenants
            we're still bound by are the National Covenant of 1638
            <http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualnls/NatCov.htm> and the Solemn
            League and Covenant
            <http://www.swrb.com/newslett/actualnls/CRTSol.htm>."), while an elder
            from that very congregation mocks the same doctrine.

            Fortunately, elders mocking have no bearing on whether what they are
            mocking is truth or not. Matthew 26:57, 67, 68

            Those labelled Steelites own the original Westminster Standards, and the
            descending obligation of the Covenants, without testifying against them
            or mocking them, like the RPCNA used to do when they first came to this
            country, even after the "Steelites" left them (the original split had
            more to do with the issue of voluntary association with people of other
            religious professions, and the refusal of the RPCNA to even discuss this
            issue).

            See:
            http://truecovenanter.com/deedcons.html

            http://reformedpresbytery.com/books/rpcna/rpcna.htm

            gmw.
          • Larry Bump
            ... From: gmw ... No, you see one mocking the continued mis-application of them. There is a significant difference. I do not
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 6, 2005
            • 0 Attachment
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
              >
              > Theophilus,
              >
              > What you are now witnessing is an elder of the Reformed Presbyterian
              > Church of North America (called Covenanters) mocking the descending
              > obligations of national covenants,

              No, you see one mocking the continued mis-application of them. There is a
              significant difference.
              I do not mock the Standards, but the application of obligations of related
              persons of the past to the present.

              I do not even mock those making that mis-application, as you should be able
              to see, just the poor philosophy of them. I really do love Edgar as a
              brother; that's why I am disappointed in his presentation.

              Can you see this difference? If so, now what? If not, why not?

              Larry Bump



              --
              Internal Virus Database is out-of-date.
              Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
              Version: 7.0.308 / Virus Database: 267.12.5 - Release Date: 10/24/2005
            • trygvesson@aol.com
              In a message dated 11/6/2005 5:58:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, lbump@bright.net writes: I do not even mock those making that mis-application, as you should be
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 6, 2005
              • 0 Attachment
                In a message dated 11/6/2005 5:58:33 PM Eastern Standard Time, lbump@... writes:
                "I do not even mock those making that mis-application, as you should be able to see, just the poor philosophy of them.  I really do love Edgar as a brother; that's why I am disappointed in his presentation.

                Can you see this difference?  If so, now what?  If not, why not?

                Larry Bump"
                 
                 
                Aye, I must add my wholehearted agreement with this above, as it is exactly as I regard this entire issue.
                 
                ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
                Christopher Coombes
                Lynchburg Reformed Presbyterian Fellowship,
                Lynchburg, VA
                Member, Triangle RPC
                RPCNA


                                                                                _
                                                                               / )
                                                             (\__/)         ( (
                                                              )    (           ) )
                                                           ={      }=       / /
                                                              )     `-------/ /
                                                             (               /
                                                              \              |
                                                              ,'\       ,    ,'
                                                              `-'\  ,---\   | \
                                                                 _) )    `. \ /
                                                                (__/       ) )
                                                                          (_/
              • Whit
                ... Boumpasse, ... covenants as ... I ve wondered the same (obligation to the French Confession or other Huguenot subordinate standards and covenants) as I
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 10, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bump"
                  <lbump@b...> wrote:
                  >
                  > My first ancestor on this continent (Fortune, 1621) was Edouad
                  Boumpasse,
                  > French Huguenot refugee from France, through Leyden then London.
                  >
                  > Maybe I could pull this off?
                  >
                  > Wait a minute, does this mean I should be bound to any French
                  covenants as
                  > well as Scot? This could get confusing.
                  >
                  I've wondered the same (obligation to the French Confession or other
                  Huguenot subordinate standards and covenants) as I also have Huguenot
                  ancestry (through Forsyth who came through England).

                  Whit
                • Fred blahous
                  G day Whit. Since France was under James VI at the time, perhaps they would be covered by the National Covenant. Probably not though, since it doesn,t seem to
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 12, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                    G'day Whit.

                    Since France was under James VI at the time, perhaps they would be
                    covered by the National Covenant. Probably not though, since it
                    doesn,t seem to have been sworn outside Scotland. Is there still a
                    Huguenot Church under the Belgic Confession? I don't think the denom
                    exists anymore.

                    All the best,
                    Fred.

                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Whit"
                    <covie_pres.1646@v...> wrote:
                    >
                    > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bump"
                    > <lbump@b...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > My first ancestor on this continent (Fortune, 1621) was Edouad
                    > Boumpasse,
                    > > French Huguenot refugee from France, through Leyden then London.
                    > >
                    > > Maybe I could pull this off?
                    > >
                    > > Wait a minute, does this mean I should be bound to any French
                    > covenants as
                    > > well as Scot? This could get confusing.
                    > >
                    > I've wondered the same (obligation to the French Confession or
                    other
                    > Huguenot subordinate standards and covenants) as I also have
                    Huguenot
                    > ancestry (through Forsyth who came through England).
                    >
                    > Whit
                    >
                  • Whit
                    The only Huguenot church in existence to my belief is the one in Charleston, SC. Not sure how compliant to the attainments of the original Huguenots though.
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 17, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      The only Huguenot church in existence to my belief is the one in
                      Charleston, SC. Not sure how compliant to the attainments of the
                      original Huguenots though.

                      Whit

                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Fred blahous"
                      <fritzbau@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > G'day Whit.
                      >
                      > Since France was under James VI at the time, perhaps they would be
                      > covered by the National Covenant. Probably not though, since it
                      > doesn,t seem to have been sworn outside Scotland. Is there still a
                      > Huguenot Church under the Belgic Confession? I don't think the
                      denom
                      > exists anymore.
                      >
                      > All the best,
                      > Fred.
                      >
                      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Whit"
                      > <covie_pres.1646@v...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bump"
                      > > <lbump@b...> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > My first ancestor on this continent (Fortune, 1621) was Edouad
                      > > Boumpasse,
                      > > > French Huguenot refugee from France, through Leyden then
                      London.
                      > > >
                      > > > Maybe I could pull this off?
                      > > >
                      > > > Wait a minute, does this mean I should be bound to any French
                      > > covenants as
                      > > > well as Scot? This could get confusing.
                      > > >
                      > > I've wondered the same (obligation to the French Confession or
                      > other
                      > > Huguenot subordinate standards and covenants) as I also have
                      > Huguenot
                      > > ancestry (through Forsyth who came through England).
                      > >
                      > > Whit
                      > >
                      >
                    • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                      Actually the Huguenot Church denomination does exist in France. Then there is one that sounds conservative in the USA in South Carolina that Whit mentioned:
                      Message 10 of 11 , Nov 17, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Actually the Huguenot Church denomination does exist in France.
                        Then there is one that sounds conservative in the USA in South
                        Carolina that Whit mentioned:
                        http://www.frenchhuguenotchurch.org/main.html



                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Whit"
                        <covie_pres.1646@v...> wrote:
                        >
                        > The only Huguenot church in existence to my belief is the one in
                        > Charleston, SC. Not sure how compliant to the attainments of the
                        > original Huguenots though.
                        >
                        > Whit
                        >
                        > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Fred blahous"
                        > <fritzbau@y...> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > G'day Whit.
                        > >
                        > > Since France was under James VI at the time, perhaps they would
                        be
                        > > covered by the National Covenant. Probably not though, since it
                        > > doesn,t seem to have been sworn outside Scotland. Is there still
                        a
                        > > Huguenot Church under the Belgic Confession? I don't think the
                        > denom
                        > > exists anymore.
                        > >
                        > > All the best,
                        > > Fred.
                        > >
                        > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Whit"
                        > > <covie_pres.1646@v...> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bump"
                        > > > <lbump@b...> wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > My first ancestor on this continent (Fortune, 1621) was
                        Edouad
                        > > > Boumpasse,
                        > > > > French Huguenot refugee from France, through Leyden then
                        > London.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Maybe I could pull this off?
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Wait a minute, does this mean I should be bound to any
                        French
                        > > > covenants as
                        > > > > well as Scot? This could get confusing.
                        > > > >
                        > > > I've wondered the same (obligation to the French Confession or
                        > > other
                        > > > Huguenot subordinate standards and covenants) as I also have
                        > > Huguenot
                        > > > ancestry (through Forsyth who came through England).
                        > > >
                        > > > Whit
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Whit
                        While I was only referring to North America, Edgar is indeed right about the Huguenot church in France. Whit ... the ... would ... it ... still ... Bump ...
                        Message 11 of 11 , Nov 18, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          While I was only referring to North America, Edgar is indeed right
                          about the Huguenot church in France.

                          Whit

                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                          Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Actually the Huguenot Church denomination does exist in France.
                          > Then there is one that sounds conservative in the USA in South
                          > Carolina that Whit mentioned:
                          > http://www.frenchhuguenotchurch.org/main.html
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Whit"
                          > <covie_pres.1646@v...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > The only Huguenot church in existence to my belief is the one in
                          > > Charleston, SC. Not sure how compliant to the attainments of
                          the
                          > > original Huguenots though.
                          > >
                          > > Whit
                          > >
                          > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Fred blahous"
                          > > <fritzbau@y...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > G'day Whit.
                          > > >
                          > > > Since France was under James VI at the time, perhaps they
                          would
                          > be
                          > > > covered by the National Covenant. Probably not though, since
                          it
                          > > > doesn,t seem to have been sworn outside Scotland. Is there
                          still
                          > a
                          > > > Huguenot Church under the Belgic Confession? I don't think the
                          > > denom
                          > > > exists anymore.
                          > > >
                          > > > All the best,
                          > > > Fred.
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Whit"
                          > > > <covie_pres.1646@v...> wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry
                          Bump"
                          > > > > <lbump@b...> wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > My first ancestor on this continent (Fortune, 1621) was
                          > Edouad
                          > > > > Boumpasse,
                          > > > > > French Huguenot refugee from France, through Leyden then
                          > > London.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Maybe I could pull this off?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Wait a minute, does this mean I should be bound to any
                          > French
                          > > > > covenants as
                          > > > > > well as Scot? This could get confusing.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > I've wondered the same (obligation to the French Confession
                          or
                          > > > other
                          > > > > Huguenot subordinate standards and covenants) as I also have
                          > > > Huguenot
                          > > > > ancestry (through Forsyth who came through England).
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Whit
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.