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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...

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  • personalwg@chartermi.net
    Gerry, I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that anyone who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation Defended
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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      Gerry,

      I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that anyone
      who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
      Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
      making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum. The
      comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
      assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
      been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
      and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.

      My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.

      Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
      has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
      Defended contact him directly at:

      Greg Barrow
      780-440-0272 phone
      gkbarrow@...

      I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
      rebuked publically for information that has been published. Therefore,
      so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
      further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
      between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
      the book and the author of the book himself. I know what comments on
      this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
      to question the truth.

      Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
      and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
      misrepresented on this forum.

      Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.

      For the cause of Christ,
      Walt.

      gmw wrote:

      > If we are going to post things to the group, let's post things that
      > have some substance, that are for edification, and that are helpful to
      > others.
      >
      > The less this group is like a fight club, the happier I'd be.
      >
      > gmw.
      >
      >
      >
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    • Glenn Ferrell
      Though I ve not been part of this current discussion, I would suggest that once something has been PUBLISHED it is a public document and may be publicly
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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        Though I've not been part of this current discussion, I would suggest that once something has been PUBLISHED it is a public document and may be publicly commented on.  After all, isn't public examination and discussion the purpose of publication.   
         
        Glenn Ferrell
        SRPC, Boise, ID
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 7:56 AM
        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...

        Gerry,

        I agree with your position wholeheartedly.  My suggestion is that anyone
        who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
        Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
        making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum.  The
        comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
        assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
        been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
        and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.

        My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.

        Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
        has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
        Defended contact him directly at:

        Greg Barrow
        780-440-0272 phone
        gkbarrow@...

        I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
        rebuked publically for information that has been published.  Therefore,
        so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
        further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
        between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
        the book and the author of the book himself.  I know what comments on
        this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
        to question the truth.

        Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
        and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
        misrepresented on this forum.

        Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.

        For the cause of Christ,
        Walt.

        gmw wrote:


      • gmw
        Walt, I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall position on the Covenants, and on the society people s refraining from joining the Revolution
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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          Walt,

          I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall position on the
          Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from joining the
          Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions about the
          Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author specifically about those
          questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when someone
          attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using that
          explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall) argument. There
          is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as he is 1)
          still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing to talk to
          folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this forum ought not to be
          met with silence. While others may construe this silence as "no leg to
          stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and resources to construct
          a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the challenger, mind you,
          but to satisfy those who have had their consciences troubled). And
          therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to be silent, I
          want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and substantial.

          COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW DOWN! And let's
          quit it with the spitball replies. These objections brought up are not
          new... these things have been dealt with in various writings defending
          the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many of you have access
          to older materials that would be very helpful in this. Make use of
          them. Btw, the RPCNA is in the same boat with the "Steelites" on this
          one... they must also defend, and have in the past defended, their
          refusal to join with the Revolution Church.

          Back to family matters,
          gmw.


          personalwg@... wrote:

          > Gerry,
          >
          > I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that anyone
          > who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
          > Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
          > making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum. The
          > comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
          > assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
          > been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
          > and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
          >
          > My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
          >
          > Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
          > has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
          > Defended contact him directly at:
          >
          > Greg Barrow
          > 780-440-0272 phone
          > gkbarrow@...
          >
          > I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
          > rebuked publically for information that has been published. Therefore,
          > so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
          > further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
          > between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
          > the book and the author of the book himself. I know what comments on
          > this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
          > to question the truth.
          >
          > Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
          > and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
          > misrepresented on this forum.
          >
          > Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
          >
          > For the cause of Christ,
          > Walt.
        • Matthew Winzer
          How about Walt does not cite blocks of text from the book anymore; and then I will not feel compelled to show the inaccuracy of its statements; then Walt will
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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            How about Walt does not cite blocks of text from the book anymore; and then
            I will not feel compelled to show the inaccuracy of its statements; then
            Walt will not have to feel concerned over people thinking through these
            issues.

            Yours sincerely,
            Matthew Winzer


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: <personalwg@...>
            To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 11:56 PM
            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


            > Gerry,
            >
            > I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that anyone
            > who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
            > Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
            > making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum. The
            > comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
            > assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
            > been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
            > and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
            >
            > My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
            >
            > Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
            > has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
            > Defended contact him directly at:
            >
            > Greg Barrow
            > 780-440-0272 phone
            > gkbarrow@...
            >
            > I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
            > rebuked publically for information that has been published. Therefore,
            > so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
            > further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
            > between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
            > the book and the author of the book himself. I know what comments on
            > this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
            > to question the truth.
            >
            > Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
            > and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
            > misrepresented on this forum.
            >
            > Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
            >
            > For the cause of Christ,
            > Walt.
            >
            > gmw wrote:
            >
            >> If we are going to post things to the group, let's post things that
            >> have some substance, that are for edification, and that are helpful to
            >> others.
            >>
            >> The less this group is like a fight club, the happier I'd be.
            >>
            >> gmw.
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
            >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
            >>
            >> * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
            >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>" on
            >> the web.
            >>
            >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            >> covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >>
            >> <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
            >>
            >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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            >>
            >
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          • Matthew Winzer
            ... In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I think it is a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past the personal
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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              >>>Btw, the RPCNA is in the same boat with the "Steelites" on this
              > one... they must also defend, and have in the past defended, their
              > refusal to join with the Revolution Church<<<

              In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I think it is
              a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past the
              personal differences of various camps at the Revolution Settlement and have
              seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and biblical terms of
              communion.

              Yours sincerely,
              Matthew Winzer


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
              To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
              Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


              > Walt,
              >
              > I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall position on the
              > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from joining the
              > Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions about the
              > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author specifically about those
              > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when someone
              > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using that
              > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall) argument. There
              > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as he is 1)
              > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing to talk to
              > folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this forum ought not to be
              > met with silence. While others may construe this silence as "no leg to
              > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and resources to construct
              > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the challenger, mind you,
              > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences troubled). And
              > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to be silent, I
              > want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and substantial.
              >
              > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW DOWN! And let's
              > quit it with the spitball replies. These objections brought up are not
              > new... these things have been dealt with in various writings defending
              > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many of you have access
              > to older materials that would be very helpful in this. Make use of
              > them. .
              >
              > Back to family matters,
              > gmw.
              >
              >
              > personalwg@... wrote:
              >
              >> Gerry,
              >>
              >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that anyone
              >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
              >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
              >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum. The
              >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
              >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
              >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
              >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
              >>
              >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
              >>
              >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
              >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
              >> Defended contact him directly at:
              >>
              >> Greg Barrow
              >> 780-440-0272 phone
              >> gkbarrow@...
              >>
              >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
              >> rebuked publically for information that has been published. Therefore,
              >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
              >> further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
              >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
              >> the book and the author of the book himself. I know what comments on
              >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
              >> to question the truth.
              >>
              >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
              >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
              >> misrepresented on this forum.
              >>
              >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
              >>
              >> For the cause of Christ,
              >> Walt.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • gmw
              I m not a big fan of block quotes from that book. I ve not read it myself, other than chunks of it here and there. But I do get confused as to what the
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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                I'm not a big fan of block quotes from that book. I've not read it
                myself, other than chunks of it here and there. But I do get confused
                as to what the esse/bene esse thing has to do with some of these issues
                AT ALL.

                To me, it would be MUCH MORE HELPFUL to distinguish between lawfully
                established churches vs. unlawfully established churches, when dealing
                with the Revolution Church issue. But like I said before, I'm just a
                private man and a noob.

                gmw.

                Matthew Winzer wrote:

                > How about Walt does not cite blocks of text from the book anymore; and
                > then
                > I will not feel compelled to show the inaccuracy of its statements; then
                > Walt will not have to feel concerned over people thinking through these
                > issues.
                >
                > Yours sincerely,
                > Matthew Winzer
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: <personalwg@...>
                > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 11:56 PM
                > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                >
                >
                > > Gerry,
                > >
                > > I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that anyone
                > > who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
                > > Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
                > > making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum. The
                > > comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
                > > assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
                > > been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
                > > and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
                > >
                > > My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                > >
                > > Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
                > > has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
                > > Defended contact him directly at:
                > >
                > > Greg Barrow
                > > 780-440-0272 phone
                > > gkbarrow@...
                > >
                > > I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
                > > rebuked publically for information that has been published. Therefore,
                > > so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
                > > further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
                > > between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
                > > the book and the author of the book himself. I know what comments on
                > > this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
                > > to question the truth.
                > >
                > > Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
                > > and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
                > > misrepresented on this forum.
                > >
                > > Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                > >
                > > For the cause of Christ,
                > > Walt.
                > >
                > > gmw wrote:
                > >
                > >> If we are going to post things to the group, let's post things that
                > >> have some substance, that are for edification, and that are helpful to
                > >> others.
                > >>
                > >> The less this group is like a fight club, the happier I'd be.
                > >>
                > >> gmw.
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                > >>
                > >> * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                > >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>" on
                > >> the web.
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              • gmw
                ... The best RP s hold firm to the RP principles, and so the issue then is not who is best and what they did, but the principles themselves, and whether
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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                  Matthew Winzer wrote:

                  > >>>Btw, the RPCNA is in the same boat with the "Steelites" on this
                  > > one... they must also defend, and have in the past defended, their
                  > > refusal to join with the Revolution Church<<<
                  >
                  > In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church.

                  The best RP's hold firm to the RP principles, and so the issue then is
                  not who is best and what they did, but the principles themselves, and
                  whether principles are biblical or not.

                  > I think it is
                  > a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past the
                  > personal differences of various camps at the Revolution Settlement and
                  > have
                  > seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and biblical
                  > terms of
                  > communion.

                  Did we not agree that separation is at times warranted without declaring
                  the church separated from as a "false church"?

                  gmw.
                • Matthew Winzer
                  ... That is knotty seeing that RP principles were enmeshed in the personal controversies surrounding redress at the Revolution Settlement. Someone like
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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                    >>>> The best RP's hold firm to the RP principles, and so the issue then is
                    > not who is best and what they did, but the principles themselves, and
                    > whether principles are biblical or not.<<<

                    That is knotty seeing that RP principles were enmeshed in the personal
                    controversies surrounding redress at the Revolution Settlement. Someone
                    like William Symington could see through those personal differences, and
                    when the Disruption occurred in 1843 could give his approval to the Free
                    Church as essentially maintaining the RP testimony, especially as relating
                    to Patronage.

                    >>>Did we not agree that separation is at times warranted without declaring
                    > the church separated from as a "false church"?<<<

                    Yes, there were guidelines provided as to when it was right to separate from
                    a church, none of which apply (nor has any evidence been provided that they
                    do apply) to the post Revolution Church. Hence I stick by my statement
                    concerning the best RP men in relation to the Revolution church.

                    Yours sincerely,
                    Matthew Winzer


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
                    To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:05 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


                    >
                    >
                    > Matthew Winzer wrote:
                    >
                    >> >>>Btw, the RPCNA is in the same boat with the "Steelites" on this
                    >> > one... they must also defend, and have in the past defended, their
                    >> > refusal to join with the Revolution Church<<<
                    >>
                    >> In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church.
                    >
                    > The best RP's hold firm to the RP principles, and so the issue then is
                    > not who is best and what they did, but the principles themselves, and
                    > whether principles are biblical or not.
                    >
                    >> I think it is
                    >> a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past the
                    >> personal differences of various camps at the Revolution Settlement and
                    >> have
                    >> seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and biblical
                    >> terms of
                    >> communion.
                    >
                    > Did we not agree that separation is at times warranted without declaring
                    > the church separated from as a "false church"?
                    >
                    > gmw.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Jerrold H. Lewis
                    Amen Matthew. Kind regards, Jerrold Lewis www.apcvan.com http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/ In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I think
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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                      Amen Matthew.
                       
                      Kind regards,
                       
                      Jerrold Lewis

                      In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church.  I think it is
                      a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past the
                      personal differences of various camps at the Revolution Settlement and have
                      seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and biblical terms of
                      communion.

                      Yours sincerely,
                      Matthew Winzer


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
                      To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


                      > Walt,
                      >
                      > I agree with you on several counts.  1. Your overall position on the
                      > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from joining the
                      > Revolution Church.  2.  That folks that have questions about the
                      > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author specifically about those
                      > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when someone
                      > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using that
                      > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall) argument.  There
                      > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as he is 1)
                      > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing to talk to
                      > folks.  3.  That the challenges brought up in this forum ought not to be
                      > met with silence.  While others may construe this silence as "no leg to
                      > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and resources to construct
                      > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the challenger, mind you,
                      > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences troubled).  And
                      > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to be silent, I
                      > want you to be LOUD.  But not simply loud, but loud and substantial.
                      >
                      > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW DOWN!  And let's
                      > quit it with the spitball replies.  These objections brought up are not
                      > new... these things have been dealt with in various writings defending
                      > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church.  Many of you have access
                      > to older materials that would be very helpful in this.  Make use of
                      > them.  .
                      >
                      > Back to family matters,
                      > gmw.
                      >
                      >
                      > personalwg@... wrote:
                      >
                      >> Gerry,
                      >>
                      >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly.  My suggestion is that anyone
                      >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
                      >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
                      >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum.  The
                      >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
                      >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
                      >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
                      >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
                      >>
                      >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                      >>
                      >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
                      >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
                      >> Defended contact him directly at:
                      >>
                      >> Greg Barrow
                      >> 780-440-0272 phone
                      >> gkbarrow@...
                      >>
                      >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
                      >> rebuked publically for information that has been published.  Therefore,
                      >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
                      >> further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
                      >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
                      >> the book and the author of the book himself.  I know what comments on
                      >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
                      >> to question the truth.
                      >>
                      >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
                      >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
                      >> misrepresented on this forum.
                      >>
                      >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                      >>
                      >> For the cause of Christ,
                      >> Walt.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                    • Glenn Ferrell
                      The Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland still affirms the binding nature of the Covenants. They also have a close relationship with the Free Church of
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        The Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland still affirms the binding nature of the Covenants.  They also have a close relationship with the Free Church of Scotland and the Free Church of Scotland Continuing, though these latter groups came out of the Revolutionary settlementchurch.  At the same time, they keep reminding their Free Church brothers of the importance of the Covenants.
                         
                        In my experience, I've heard a RPCI minister preach in a FCC congregation and heard him remind them of the Covenants and their need to affirm them.  I've also know of FCC ministers to preach in RPCI congregations and they have sent students to each other's seminaries.
                         
                        An important question, do we have no ecclesiastical relations, pulpit exchanges, intercommunion, with sound groups who disagree with minute points concerning these matters.  Seems more is to be gained by keeping the discussion going on these matters. 
                         
                        Glenn Ferrell
                        SRPC, Boise, ID
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 8:47 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...

                        >>>Btw, the RPCNA is in the same boat with the "Steelites" on this
                        > one... they must also defend, and have in the past defended, their
                        > refusal to join with the Revolution Church<<<

                        In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church.  I think it is
                        a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past the
                        personal differences of various camps at the Revolution Settlement and have
                        seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and biblical terms of
                        communion.

                        Yours sincerely,
                        Matthew Winzer


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
                        To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


                        > Walt,
                        >
                        > I agree with you on several counts.  1. Your overall position on the
                        > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from joining the
                        > Revolution Church.  2.  That folks that have questions about the
                        > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author specifically about those
                        > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when someone
                        > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using that
                        > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall) argument.  There
                        > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as he is 1)
                        > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing to talk to
                        > folks.  3.  That the challenges brought up in this forum ought not to be
                        > met with silence.  While others may construe this silence as "no leg to
                        > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and resources to construct
                        > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the challenger, mind you,
                        > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences troubled).  And
                        > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to be silent, I
                        > want you to be LOUD.  But not simply loud, but loud and substantial.
                        >
                        > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW DOWN!  And let's
                        > quit it with the spitball replies.  These objections brought up are not
                        > new... these things have been dealt with in various writings defending
                        > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church.  Many of you have access
                        > to older materials that would be very helpful in this.  Make use of
                        > them.  .
                        >
                        > Back to family matters,
                        > gmw.
                        >
                        >
                        > personalwg@... wrote:
                        >
                        >> Gerry,
                        >>
                        >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly.  My suggestion is that anyone
                        >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
                        >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
                        >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum.  The
                        >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
                        >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
                        >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
                        >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
                        >>
                        >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                        >>
                        >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
                        >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
                        >> Defended contact him directly at:
                        >>
                        >> Greg Barrow
                        >> 780-440-0272 phone
                        >> gkbarrow@...
                        >>
                        >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
                        >> rebuked publically for information that has been published.  Therefore,
                        >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
                        >> further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
                        >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
                        >> the book and the author of the book himself.  I know what comments on
                        >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
                        >> to question the truth.
                        >>
                        >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
                        >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
                        >> misrepresented on this forum.
                        >>
                        >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                        >>
                        >> For the cause of Christ,
                        >> Walt.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >



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                      • gmw
                        ... differences, and ... Free ... relating ... Do you approve of this separation from the established Church of Scotland? ... declaring ... separate from ...
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Winzer"
                          <mwinzer@p...> wrote:

                          > Someone
                          > like William Symington could see through those personal
                          differences, and
                          > when the Disruption occurred in 1843 could give his approval to the
                          Free
                          > Church as essentially maintaining the RP testimony, especially as
                          relating
                          > to Patronage.

                          Do you approve of this separation from the established Church of
                          Scotland?

                          > >>>Did we not agree that separation is at times warranted without
                          declaring
                          > > the church separated from as a "false church"?<<<
                          >
                          > Yes, there were guidelines provided as to when it was right to
                          separate from
                          > a church, none of which apply (nor has any evidence been provided
                          that they
                          > do apply) to the post Revolution Church.

                          What guidelines are you talking about? And do you mean that
                          evidences were never provided, or that they were not provided to you
                          in this meagre forum?

                          > Hence I stick by my statement
                          > concerning the best RP men in relation to the Revolution church.

                          I'm confused now, as I thought your statements were regarding the
                          Disruption, where folks broke away from the established Revolution
                          Church, on at least some of the same principles that the RP's
                          dissented from it.

                          gmw.
                        • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                          Jerrold, AMEN Matthew ? ... Presbyterianism established on Erastian precepts is unfaithfulness to the Truth of the doctrine of jus divinum of divine right.
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Jerrold,

                            "AMEN Matthew"?

                            >In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I
                            >think it is
                            >a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past
                            >the personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                            >Settlement and have seen the light as to what constitutes the true
                            >church and biblical terms of communion.


                            Presbyterianism established on Erastian precepts is unfaithfulness
                            to the Truth of the doctrine of "jus divinum" of divine right.
                            Remember, it was the Revolution Church that undid and backslide from
                            the Covenanted Reformation that was rightly established on the
                            premise of jus divinum and NOT on Erastian precepts.

                            It was the Revolution Church established on precepts that ran
                            contrary to everything that the faithful church of Scotland erected,
                            by the very hand of God, during 1638-1649, that they were founded
                            on. The Settlement essentially swept aside, as if it never
                            happened, all of the Biblical santification and growth of the Church
                            that occurred between 1638-1649, thereby overthrowing the wonderous
                            work of God in His Church and looking to Princes to establish their
                            own Zion on Earth.

                            Exaggeration? By leaving on the books the Acts Recissory, which
                            called the GA of Scotland of 1638-1649 and the Westminister Assembly
                            treasonous and rebellious, and not doing anything to undo that
                            Demonic Act, the Revolution Church was founded not on faithful
                            doctrine and on a Biblical basis, instead founded on the innovations
                            of man and made man to establish a new "Presbyterian" church. It
                            was the very few that refused to follow a multitude to do evil.

                            Jus Divinum is not just small potatotes or personal differences.
                            That would be akin to saying that the manner of worship is something
                            that is left to the innovations of man (like most American
                            Presbyterian churches).

                            The quarrel here is, who is Sovereign in the Church? King Jesus
                            alone or Man? The Covenanters from way back in 1580 to the
                            Revolution always asserted the Divine Right of Presbyterianism as
                            established by God as the ONLY legit form of Church Government. The
                            Revolution Settlement, established Presbyterianism because it was
                            the sentiment of the people and according to the whims of William
                            and the Parliament.


                            History cannot be ignored just because the conclusion is dispiteful
                            to many.

                            RPCNA minister J.G. Vos documents this and does a host of other
                            Covenanters and Seceeders (Thomas M'Crie) of the past. These are
                            not my own inventions.



                            For One Truth in Christ,

                            Edgar Ibarra
                            Communicant Member
                            RPNA (GM)
                            in Albany NY
                            but originally
                            from Aztlan.



                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H. Lewis"
                            <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                            > Amen Matthew.
                            >
                            > Kind regards,
                            >
                            > Jerrold Lewis
                            > www.apcvan.com
                            > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                            >
                            > In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I
                            think it
                            > is
                            > a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past
                            the
                            > personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                            Settlement and
                            > have
                            > seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and
                            biblical terms
                            > of
                            > communion.
                            >
                            > Yours sincerely,
                            > Matthew Winzer
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@v...>
                            > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                            >
                            >
                            > > Walt,
                            > >
                            > > I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall position
                            on the
                            > > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from joining
                            the
                            > > Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions about
                            the
                            > > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author specifically
                            about those
                            > > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when someone
                            > > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using that
                            > > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall)
                            argument. There
                            > > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as he
                            is 1)
                            > > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing to
                            talk to
                            > > folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this forum ought
                            not to be
                            > > met with silence. While others may construe this silence
                            as "no leg to
                            > > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and resources to
                            construct
                            > > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the challenger,
                            mind you,
                            > > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences
                            troubled). And
                            > > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to be
                            silent, I
                            > > want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and
                            substantial.
                            > >
                            > > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW DOWN!
                            And let's
                            > > quit it with the spitball replies. These objections brought
                            up are not
                            > > new... these things have been dealt with in various writings
                            defending
                            > > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many of you
                            have access
                            > > to older materials that would be very helpful in this. Make
                            use of
                            > > them. .
                            > >
                            > > Back to family matters,
                            > > gmw.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > personalwg@c... wrote:
                            > >
                            > >> Gerry,
                            > >>
                            > >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is
                            that
                            > anyone
                            > >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted
                            Reformation
                            > >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email
                            privately before
                            > >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this
                            forum. The
                            > >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on
                            this list to
                            > >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered
                            there has
                            > >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author
                            directly
                            > >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in
                            question.
                            > >>
                            > >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                            > >>
                            > >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest
                            anyone who
                            > >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted
                            Reformation
                            > >> Defended contact him directly at:
                            > >>
                            > >> Greg Barrow
                            > >> 780-440-0272 phone
                            > >> gkbarrow@s...
                            > >>
                            > >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my
                            Elders be
                            > >> rebuked publically for information that has been published.
                            Therefore,
                            > >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that
                            nothing
                            > >> further be said on the subject until private discussions take
                            place
                            > >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were
                            misrepresented in
                            > >> the book and the author of the book himself. I know what
                            comments on
                            > >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in
                            our
                            > church
                            > >> to question the truth.
                            > >>
                            > >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with
                            the author
                            > >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before
                            they are
                            > >> misrepresented on this forum.
                            > >>
                            > >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                            > >>
                            > >> For the cause of Christ,
                            > >> Walt.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                            ---------
                            > --
                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                            >
                            > a.. Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the web.
                            >
                            > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                            >
                            > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
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                            > Service.
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                            > -------------------------------------------------------------------
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                          • personalwg@chartermi.net
                            Edgar, when I read your comments, I think of the following...the few, the proud, the marines. And don t ever think that I for one minute apply the worldly
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Edgar, when I read your comments, I think of the following...the few,
                              the proud, the marines. And don't ever think that I for one minute
                              apply the worldly word of "proud" in the context I use if for you.
                              Rather, I love your diligence and defense of the truth dear brother.
                              For true covenanter cause, Walt.

                              Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:

                              > Jerrold,
                              >
                              > "AMEN Matthew"?
                              >
                              > >In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I
                              > >think it is
                              > >a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past
                              > >the personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                              > >Settlement and have seen the light as to what constitutes the true
                              > >church and biblical terms of communion.
                              >
                              >
                              > Presbyterianism established on Erastian precepts is unfaithfulness
                              > to the Truth of the doctrine of "jus divinum" of divine right.
                              > Remember, it was the Revolution Church that undid and backslide from
                              > the Covenanted Reformation that was rightly established on the
                              > premise of jus divinum and NOT on Erastian precepts.
                              >
                              > It was the Revolution Church established on precepts that ran
                              > contrary to everything that the faithful church of Scotland erected,
                              > by the very hand of God, during 1638-1649, that they were founded
                              > on. The Settlement essentially swept aside, as if it never
                              > happened, all of the Biblical santification and growth of the Church
                              > that occurred between 1638-1649, thereby overthrowing the wonderous
                              > work of God in His Church and looking to Princes to establish their
                              > own Zion on Earth.
                              >
                              > Exaggeration? By leaving on the books the Acts Recissory, which
                              > called the GA of Scotland of 1638-1649 and the Westminister Assembly
                              > treasonous and rebellious, and not doing anything to undo that
                              > Demonic Act, the Revolution Church was founded not on faithful
                              > doctrine and on a Biblical basis, instead founded on the innovations
                              > of man and made man to establish a new "Presbyterian" church. It
                              > was the very few that refused to follow a multitude to do evil.
                              >
                              > Jus Divinum is not just small potatotes or personal differences.
                              > That would be akin to saying that the manner of worship is something
                              > that is left to the innovations of man (like most American
                              > Presbyterian churches).
                              >
                              > The quarrel here is, who is Sovereign in the Church? King Jesus
                              > alone or Man? The Covenanters from way back in 1580 to the
                              > Revolution always asserted the Divine Right of Presbyterianism as
                              > established by God as the ONLY legit form of Church Government. The
                              > Revolution Settlement, established Presbyterianism because it was
                              > the sentiment of the people and according to the whims of William
                              > and the Parliament.
                              >
                              >
                              > History cannot be ignored just because the conclusion is dispiteful
                              > to many.
                              >
                              > RPCNA minister J.G. Vos documents this and does a host of other
                              > Covenanters and Seceeders (Thomas M'Crie) of the past. These are
                              > not my own inventions.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > For One Truth in Christ,
                              >
                              > Edgar Ibarra
                              > Communicant Member
                              > RPNA (GM)
                              > in Albany NY
                              > but originally
                              > from Aztlan.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H. Lewis"
                              > <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                              > > Amen Matthew.
                              > >
                              > > Kind regards,
                              > >
                              > > Jerrold Lewis
                              > > www.apcvan.com
                              > > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                              > >
                              > > In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I
                              > think it
                              > > is
                              > > a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past
                              > the
                              > > personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                              > Settlement and
                              > > have
                              > > seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and
                              > biblical terms
                              > > of
                              > > communion.
                              > >
                              > > Yours sincerely,
                              > > Matthew Winzer
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > ----- Original Message -----
                              > > From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@v...>
                              > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                              > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                              > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > > Walt,
                              > > >
                              > > > I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall position
                              > on the
                              > > > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from joining
                              > the
                              > > > Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions about
                              > the
                              > > > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author specifically
                              > about those
                              > > > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when someone
                              > > > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using that
                              > > > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall)
                              > argument. There
                              > > > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as he
                              > is 1)
                              > > > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing to
                              > talk to
                              > > > folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this forum ought
                              > not to be
                              > > > met with silence. While others may construe this silence
                              > as "no leg to
                              > > > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and resources to
                              > construct
                              > > > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the challenger,
                              > mind you,
                              > > > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences
                              > troubled). And
                              > > > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to be
                              > silent, I
                              > > > want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and
                              > substantial.
                              > > >
                              > > > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW DOWN!
                              > And let's
                              > > > quit it with the spitball replies. These objections brought
                              > up are not
                              > > > new... these things have been dealt with in various writings
                              > defending
                              > > > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many of you
                              > have access
                              > > > to older materials that would be very helpful in this. Make
                              > use of
                              > > > them. .
                              > > >
                              > > > Back to family matters,
                              > > > gmw.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > personalwg@c... wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >> Gerry,
                              > > >>
                              > > >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is
                              > that
                              > > anyone
                              > > >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted
                              > Reformation
                              > > >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email
                              > privately before
                              > > >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this
                              > forum. The
                              > > >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on
                              > this list to
                              > > >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered
                              > there has
                              > > >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author
                              > directly
                              > > >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in
                              > question.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest
                              > anyone who
                              > > >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted
                              > Reformation
                              > > >> Defended contact him directly at:
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Greg Barrow
                              > > >> 780-440-0272 phone
                              > > >> gkbarrow@s...
                              > > >>
                              > > >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my
                              > Elders be
                              > > >> rebuked publically for information that has been published.
                              > Therefore,
                              > > >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that
                              > nothing
                              > > >> further be said on the subject until private discussions take
                              > place
                              > > >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were
                              > misrepresented in
                              > > >> the book and the author of the book himself. I know what
                              > comments on
                              > > >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in
                              > our
                              > > church
                              > > >> to question the truth.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with
                              > the author
                              > > >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before
                              > they are
                              > > >> misrepresented on this forum.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                              > > >>
                              > > >> For the cause of Christ,
                              > > >> Walt.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > ---------
                              > > --
                              > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                              > >
                              > > a.. Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the web.
                              > >
                              > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                              > of
                              > > Service.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > ---------
                              > > --
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > SPONSORED LINKS
                              > True religion
                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=True+religion&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=VSbCXDQ0s_9LcSPzxd34Sg>
                              > Theology
                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=fyxSTqLiRddGgtQLhzvMYw>
                              > Christian theology
                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Christian+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=T37fyxaJM8idJvnJGk24Vg>
                              >
                              > Online theology degree
                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Online+theology+degree&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=7vOpul4KtJjrHeinXyMSWw>
                              > School of theology
                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=School+of+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=OPciTbAg48k_TXKGxfnUPA>
                              > Systematic theology
                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Systematic+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=yzJWNx7nhHCcjllitzMPiA>
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                            • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                              Dear walt, Thank you brother! And it is spelled Marines, with a capital M ... ;-) Another FYI... we are never ex-Marines, but former Marines. Ex s are for
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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                                Dear walt,

                                Thank you brother! And it is spelled Marines, with a
                                capital "M"...

                                ;-)

                                Another FYI... we are never ex-Marines, but former Marines. Ex's
                                are for wives and girl-friends...hehehehehehe.

                                Yeah, Marine bravado, can't find any better...

                                Looking forward when you are out this way in the future!

                                Yours in Christ,

                                Edgar

                                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, personalwg@c...
                                wrote:
                                > Edgar, when I read your comments, I think of the following...the
                                few,
                                > the proud, the marines. And don't ever think that I for one
                                minute
                                > apply the worldly word of "proud" in the context I use if for
                                you.
                                > Rather, I love your diligence and defense of the truth dear
                                brother.
                                > For true covenanter cause, Walt.
                                >
                                > Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:
                                >
                                > > Jerrold,
                                > >
                                > > "AMEN Matthew"?
                                > >
                                > > >In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I
                                > > >think it is
                                > > >a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past
                                > > >the personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                > > >Settlement and have seen the light as to what constitutes the
                                true
                                > > >church and biblical terms of communion.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Presbyterianism established on Erastian precepts is
                                unfaithfulness
                                > > to the Truth of the doctrine of "jus divinum" of divine right.
                                > > Remember, it was the Revolution Church that undid and backslide
                                from
                                > > the Covenanted Reformation that was rightly established on the
                                > > premise of jus divinum and NOT on Erastian precepts.
                                > >
                                > > It was the Revolution Church established on precepts that ran
                                > > contrary to everything that the faithful church of Scotland
                                erected,
                                > > by the very hand of God, during 1638-1649, that they were founded
                                > > on. The Settlement essentially swept aside, as if it never
                                > > happened, all of the Biblical santification and growth of the
                                Church
                                > > that occurred between 1638-1649, thereby overthrowing the
                                wonderous
                                > > work of God in His Church and looking to Princes to establish
                                their
                                > > own Zion on Earth.
                                > >
                                > > Exaggeration? By leaving on the books the Acts Recissory,
                                which
                                > > called the GA of Scotland of 1638-1649 and the Westminister
                                Assembly
                                > > treasonous and rebellious, and not doing anything to undo that
                                > > Demonic Act, the Revolution Church was founded not on faithful
                                > > doctrine and on a Biblical basis, instead founded on the
                                innovations
                                > > of man and made man to establish a new "Presbyterian" church. It
                                > > was the very few that refused to follow a multitude to do evil.
                                > >
                                > > Jus Divinum is not just small potatotes or personal differences.
                                > > That would be akin to saying that the manner of worship is
                                something
                                > > that is left to the innovations of man (like most American
                                > > Presbyterian churches).
                                > >
                                > > The quarrel here is, who is Sovereign in the Church? King Jesus
                                > > alone or Man? The Covenanters from way back in 1580 to the
                                > > Revolution always asserted the Divine Right of Presbyterianism as
                                > > established by God as the ONLY legit form of Church Government.
                                The
                                > > Revolution Settlement, established Presbyterianism because it was
                                > > the sentiment of the people and according to the whims of William
                                > > and the Parliament.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > History cannot be ignored just because the conclusion is
                                dispiteful
                                > > to many.
                                > >
                                > > RPCNA minister J.G. Vos documents this and does a host of other
                                > > Covenanters and Seceeders (Thomas M'Crie) of the past. These are
                                > > not my own inventions.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > For One Truth in Christ,
                                > >
                                > > Edgar Ibarra
                                > > Communicant Member
                                > > RPNA (GM)
                                > > in Albany NY
                                > > but originally
                                > > from Aztlan.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H.
                                Lewis"
                                > > <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                                > > > Amen Matthew.
                                > > >
                                > > > Kind regards,
                                > > >
                                > > > Jerrold Lewis
                                > > > www.apcvan.com
                                > > > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                                > > >
                                > > > In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free
                                Church. I
                                > > think it
                                > > > is
                                > > > a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen
                                past
                                > > the
                                > > > personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                > > Settlement and
                                > > > have
                                > > > seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and
                                > > biblical terms
                                > > > of
                                > > > communion.
                                > > >
                                > > > Yours sincerely,
                                > > > Matthew Winzer
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > > From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@v...>
                                > > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                                > > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > > Walt,
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall
                                position
                                > > on the
                                > > > > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from
                                joining
                                > > the
                                > > > > Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions
                                about
                                > > the
                                > > > > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author
                                specifically
                                > > about those
                                > > > > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when
                                someone
                                > > > > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using
                                that
                                > > > > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall)
                                > > argument. There
                                > > > > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as
                                he
                                > > is 1)
                                > > > > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing
                                to
                                > > talk to
                                > > > > folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this forum
                                ought
                                > > not to be
                                > > > > met with silence. While others may construe this silence
                                > > as "no leg to
                                > > > > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and
                                resources to
                                > > construct
                                > > > > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the
                                challenger,
                                > > mind you,
                                > > > > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences
                                > > troubled). And
                                > > > > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to
                                be
                                > > silent, I
                                > > > > want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and
                                > > substantial.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW
                                DOWN!
                                > > And let's
                                > > > > quit it with the spitball replies. These objections
                                brought
                                > > up are not
                                > > > > new... these things have been dealt with in various
                                writings
                                > > defending
                                > > > > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many of
                                you
                                > > have access
                                > > > > to older materials that would be very helpful in this.
                                Make
                                > > use of
                                > > > > them. .
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Back to family matters,
                                > > > > gmw.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > personalwg@c... wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >> Gerry,
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion
                                is
                                > > that
                                > > > anyone
                                > > > >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted
                                > > Reformation
                                > > > >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email
                                > > privately before
                                > > > >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this
                                > > forum. The
                                > > > >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on
                                > > this list to
                                > > > >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered
                                > > there has
                                > > > >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the
                                author
                                > > directly
                                > > > >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in
                                > > question.
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest
                                > > anyone who
                                > > > >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the
                                Covenanted
                                > > Reformation
                                > > > >> Defended contact him directly at:
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> Greg Barrow
                                > > > >> 780-440-0272 phone
                                > > > >> gkbarrow@s...
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my
                                > > Elders be
                                > > > >> rebuked publically for information that has been
                                published.
                                > > Therefore,
                                > > > >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that
                                > > nothing
                                > > > >> further be said on the subject until private discussions
                                take
                                > > place
                                > > > >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were
                                > > misrepresented in
                                > > > >> the book and the author of the book himself. I know what
                                > > comments on
                                > > > >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause
                                members in
                                > > our
                                > > > church
                                > > > >> to question the truth.
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately
                                with
                                > > the author
                                > > > >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements
                                before
                                > > they are
                                > > > >> misrepresented on this forum.
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                                > > > >>
                                > > > >> For the cause of Christ,
                                > > > >> Walt.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                ----
                                > > ---------
                                > > > --
                                > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                > > >
                                > > > a.. Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the
                                web.
                                > > >
                                > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > >
                                > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                Terms
                                > > of
                                > > > Service.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                ----
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                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                > > True religion
                                > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                t=ms&k=True+religion&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theolo
                                gy&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theo
                                logy&c=6&s=134&.sig=VSbCXDQ0s_9LcSPzxd34Sg>
                                > > Theology
                                > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                t=ms&k=Theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4
                                =Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&
                                c=6&s=134&.sig=fyxSTqLiRddGgtQLhzvMYw>
                                > > Christian theology
                                > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                t=ms&k=Christian+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+t
                                heology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic
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                                > >
                                > > Online theology degree
                                > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                t=ms&k=Online+theology+degree&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christi
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                                atic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=7vOpul4KtJjrHeinXyMSWw>
                                > > School of theology
                                > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                t=ms&k=School+of+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+t
                                heology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic
                                +theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=OPciTbAg48k_TXKGxfnUPA>
                                > > Systematic theology
                                > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                t=ms&k=Systematic+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+
                                theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systemati
                                c+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=yzJWNx7nhHCcjllitzMPiA>
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                -------
                                > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                > >
                                > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                                on
                                > > the web.
                                > >
                                > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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                                > >
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                                > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
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                              • personalwg@chartermi.net
                                yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your orders! :) hehehehe, it would be so funny if it were not for the cause of truth and my
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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                                  yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your
                                  orders! :) hehehehe, it would be so funny if it were not for the cause
                                  of truth and my Lord. Sometimes I can feel the noose around my neck
                                  tightening and sometimes look forward to the face-to-face battle with
                                  Antichrist. Probably not as wise as I should be, but this Saturday I'm
                                  back in Washington, then off to Croatia, then to London then home. I've
                                  got my own battles with the beastly system, and am so grateful for your
                                  dedication to this effort Edgar. The faithful Covenanter cause has
                                  never been easy, and I expect over the coming years it will be even more
                                  and more difficult for even the best to stay in the battle.

                                  Defend the brothers and the truth dear friend. I'll be back in Albany
                                  soon. Pastor Price promised me a bed to rest in and another glorious
                                  Lord's Supper to bow my head and my knee before our King. Your brother,
                                  Walt. RPNA

                                  Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:

                                  > Dear walt,
                                  >
                                  > Thank you brother! And it is spelled Marines, with a
                                  > capital "M"...
                                  >
                                  > ;-)
                                  >
                                  > Another FYI... we are never ex-Marines, but former Marines. Ex's
                                  > are for wives and girl-friends...hehehehehehe.
                                  >
                                  > Yeah, Marine bravado, can't find any better...
                                  >
                                  > Looking forward when you are out this way in the future!
                                  >
                                  > Yours in Christ,
                                  >
                                  > Edgar
                                  >
                                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, personalwg@c...
                                  > wrote:
                                  > > Edgar, when I read your comments, I think of the following...the
                                  > few,
                                  > > the proud, the marines. And don't ever think that I for one
                                  > minute
                                  > > apply the worldly word of "proud" in the context I use if for
                                  > you.
                                  > > Rather, I love your diligence and defense of the truth dear
                                  > brother.
                                  > > For true covenanter cause, Walt.
                                  > >
                                  > > Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > Jerrold,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "AMEN Matthew"?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > >In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I
                                  > > > >think it is
                                  > > > >a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past
                                  > > > >the personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                  > > > >Settlement and have seen the light as to what constitutes the
                                  > true
                                  > > > >church and biblical terms of communion.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Presbyterianism established on Erastian precepts is
                                  > unfaithfulness
                                  > > > to the Truth of the doctrine of "jus divinum" of divine right.
                                  > > > Remember, it was the Revolution Church that undid and backslide
                                  > from
                                  > > > the Covenanted Reformation that was rightly established on the
                                  > > > premise of jus divinum and NOT on Erastian precepts.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > It was the Revolution Church established on precepts that ran
                                  > > > contrary to everything that the faithful church of Scotland
                                  > erected,
                                  > > > by the very hand of God, during 1638-1649, that they were founded
                                  > > > on. The Settlement essentially swept aside, as if it never
                                  > > > happened, all of the Biblical santification and growth of the
                                  > Church
                                  > > > that occurred between 1638-1649, thereby overthrowing the
                                  > wonderous
                                  > > > work of God in His Church and looking to Princes to establish
                                  > their
                                  > > > own Zion on Earth.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Exaggeration? By leaving on the books the Acts Recissory,
                                  > which
                                  > > > called the GA of Scotland of 1638-1649 and the Westminister
                                  > Assembly
                                  > > > treasonous and rebellious, and not doing anything to undo that
                                  > > > Demonic Act, the Revolution Church was founded not on faithful
                                  > > > doctrine and on a Biblical basis, instead founded on the
                                  > innovations
                                  > > > of man and made man to establish a new "Presbyterian" church. It
                                  > > > was the very few that refused to follow a multitude to do evil.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Jus Divinum is not just small potatotes or personal differences.
                                  > > > That would be akin to saying that the manner of worship is
                                  > something
                                  > > > that is left to the innovations of man (like most American
                                  > > > Presbyterian churches).
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The quarrel here is, who is Sovereign in the Church? King Jesus
                                  > > > alone or Man? The Covenanters from way back in 1580 to the
                                  > > > Revolution always asserted the Divine Right of Presbyterianism as
                                  > > > established by God as the ONLY legit form of Church Government.
                                  > The
                                  > > > Revolution Settlement, established Presbyterianism because it was
                                  > > > the sentiment of the people and according to the whims of William
                                  > > > and the Parliament.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > History cannot be ignored just because the conclusion is
                                  > dispiteful
                                  > > > to many.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > RPCNA minister J.G. Vos documents this and does a host of other
                                  > > > Covenanters and Seceeders (Thomas M'Crie) of the past. These are
                                  > > > not my own inventions.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > For One Truth in Christ,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Edgar Ibarra
                                  > > > Communicant Member
                                  > > > RPNA (GM)
                                  > > > in Albany NY
                                  > > > but originally
                                  > > > from Aztlan.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H.
                                  > Lewis"
                                  > > > <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                                  > > > > Amen Matthew.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Kind regards,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Jerrold Lewis
                                  > > > > www.apcvan.com
                                  > > > > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free
                                  > Church. I
                                  > > > think it
                                  > > > > is
                                  > > > > a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen
                                  > past
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                  > > > Settlement and
                                  > > > > have
                                  > > > > seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and
                                  > > > biblical terms
                                  > > > > of
                                  > > > > communion.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Yours sincerely,
                                  > > > > Matthew Winzer
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > > From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@v...>
                                  > > > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                                  > > > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > > Walt,
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall
                                  > position
                                  > > > on the
                                  > > > > > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from
                                  > joining
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > > Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions
                                  > about
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author
                                  > specifically
                                  > > > about those
                                  > > > > > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when
                                  > someone
                                  > > > > > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using
                                  > that
                                  > > > > > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall)
                                  > > > argument. There
                                  > > > > > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as
                                  > he
                                  > > > is 1)
                                  > > > > > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing
                                  > to
                                  > > > talk to
                                  > > > > > folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this forum
                                  > ought
                                  > > > not to be
                                  > > > > > met with silence. While others may construe this silence
                                  > > > as "no leg to
                                  > > > > > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and
                                  > resources to
                                  > > > construct
                                  > > > > > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the
                                  > challenger,
                                  > > > mind you,
                                  > > > > > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences
                                  > > > troubled). And
                                  > > > > > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to
                                  > be
                                  > > > silent, I
                                  > > > > > want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and
                                  > > > substantial.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW
                                  > DOWN!
                                  > > > And let's
                                  > > > > > quit it with the spitball replies. These objections
                                  > brought
                                  > > > up are not
                                  > > > > > new... these things have been dealt with in various
                                  > writings
                                  > > > defending
                                  > > > > > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many of
                                  > you
                                  > > > have access
                                  > > > > > to older materials that would be very helpful in this.
                                  > Make
                                  > > > use of
                                  > > > > > them. .
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Back to family matters,
                                  > > > > > gmw.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > personalwg@c... wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >> Gerry,
                                  > > > > >>
                                  > > > > >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion
                                  > is
                                  > > > that
                                  > > > > anyone
                                  > > > > >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted
                                  > > > Reformation
                                  > > > > >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email
                                  > > > privately before
                                  > > > > >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this
                                  > > > forum. The
                                  > > > > >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on
                                  > > > this list to
                                  > > > > >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered
                                  > > > there has
                                  > > > > >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the
                                  > author
                                  > > > directly
                                  > > > > >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in
                                  > > > question.
                                  > > > > >>
                                  > > > > >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                                  > > > > >>
                                  > > > > >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest
                                  > > > anyone who
                                  > > > > >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the
                                  > Covenanted
                                  > > > Reformation
                                  > > > > >> Defended contact him directly at:
                                  > > > > >>
                                  > > > > >> Greg Barrow
                                  > > > > >> 780-440-0272 phone
                                  > > > > >> gkbarrow@s...
                                  > > > > >>
                                  > > > > >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my
                                  > > > Elders be
                                  > > > > >> rebuked publically for information that has been
                                  > published.
                                  > > > Therefore,
                                  > > > > >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that
                                  > > > nothing
                                  > > > > >> further be said on the subject until private discussions
                                  > take
                                  > > > place
                                  > > > > >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were
                                  > > > misrepresented in
                                  > > > > >> the book and the author of the book himself. I know what
                                  > > > comments on
                                  > > > > >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause
                                  > members in
                                  > > > our
                                  > > > > church
                                  > > > > >> to question the truth.
                                  > > > > >>
                                  > > > > >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately
                                  > with
                                  > > > the author
                                  > > > > >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements
                                  > before
                                  > > > they are
                                  > > > > >> misrepresented on this forum.
                                  > > > > >>
                                  > > > > >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                                  > > > > >>
                                  > > > > >> For the cause of Christ,
                                  > > > > >> Walt.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > ----
                                  > > > ---------
                                  > > > > --
                                  > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > a.. Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the
                                  > web.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                  > Terms
                                  > > > of
                                  > > > > Service.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > ----
                                  > > > ---------
                                  > > > > --
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                  > > > True religion
                                  > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  > t=ms&k=True+religion&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theolo
                                  > gy&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theo
                                  > logy&c=6&s=134&.sig=VSbCXDQ0s_9LcSPzxd34Sg>
                                  > > > Theology
                                  > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  > t=ms&k=Theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4
                                  > =Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&
                                  > c=6&s=134&.sig=fyxSTqLiRddGgtQLhzvMYw>
                                  > > > Christian theology
                                  > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  > t=ms&k=Christian+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+t
                                  > heology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic
                                  > +theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=T37fyxaJM8idJvnJGk24Vg>
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Online theology degree
                                  > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  > t=ms&k=Online+theology+degree&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christi
                                  > an+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=System
                                  > atic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=7vOpul4KtJjrHeinXyMSWw>
                                  > > > School of theology
                                  > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  > t=ms&k=School+of+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+t
                                  > heology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic
                                  > +theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=OPciTbAg48k_TXKGxfnUPA>
                                  > > > Systematic theology
                                  > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  > t=ms&k=Systematic+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+
                                  > theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systemati
                                  > c+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=yzJWNx7nhHCcjllitzMPiA>
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > -------
                                  > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > > >
                                  > > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                  > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                                  > on
                                  > > > the web.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                  > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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                                  > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
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                                  >
                                  >
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                                  >
                                  > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>" on
                                  > the web.
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                                • gmw
                                  Oh, you no you didn t just call him sir! :-) gmw.
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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                                    Oh, you no you didn't just call him sir! :-)

                                    gmw.

                                    personalwg@... wrote:

                                    > yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your
                                    > orders! :)
                                  • Matthew Winzer
                                    ... Yes I do. The Free Churchmen exhausted every avenue of redress; and only separated as a last resort. ... See an earlier post to Walt where I provided 4
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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                                      >>>> Do you approve of this separation from the established Church of
                                      > Scotland?<<<

                                      Yes I do. The Free Churchmen exhausted every avenue of redress; and only
                                      separated as a last resort.

                                      >>>> What guidelines are you talking about? And do you mean that
                                      > evidences were never provided, or that they were not provided to you
                                      > in this meagre forum?<<<

                                      See an earlier post to Walt where I provided 4 basic situations in which
                                      separation was permissible. No such evidence is forthcoming in the
                                      literature that supports the separatists' cause (e.g., Plain Reasons by
                                      Clarkson, unless one follows his Independent sources); and there has
                                      definitely not been any on this forum, though plenty of opportunity has been
                                      afforded.

                                      > I'm confused now, as I thought your statements were regarding the
                                      > Disruption, where folks broke away from the established Revolution
                                      > Church, on at least some of the same principles that the RP's
                                      > dissented from it.

                                      The FCofS claimed to be the continuing CofS, that is, the consistent
                                      maintainer of its principles. If that is borne in mind it will avoid
                                      confusion.

                                      Yours sincerely,
                                      Matthew Winzer
                                    • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                                      My brother Walt, ... Sir? I was a SGT and not an officer, i.e. I worked for a living... ;-) I luv it... On the serious note, you will be in our prayers as you
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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                                        My brother Walt,

                                        > yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your
                                        > orders! :) hehehehe,

                                        Sir? I was a SGT and not an officer, i.e. I worked for a living...


                                        ;-) I luv it...

                                        On the serious note, you will be in our prayers as you once again
                                        trot the world. BTW congrats on becoming a communicant member! It
                                        must have been wonderous having so many come to the common table to
                                        partake of the Lord's Supper in Canada a few weeks ago! What was it
                                        again, 50 something? Anyways, take care on your travels.

                                        Yours in Christ,
                                        Edgar

                                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, personalwg@c...
                                        wrote:
                                        > yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your
                                        > orders! :) hehehehe, it would be so funny if it were not for the
                                        cause
                                        > of truth and my Lord. Sometimes I can feel the noose around my
                                        neck
                                        > tightening and sometimes look forward to the face-to-face battle
                                        with
                                        > Antichrist. Probably not as wise as I should be, but this
                                        Saturday I'm
                                        > back in Washington, then off to Croatia, then to London then
                                        home. I've
                                        > got my own battles with the beastly system, and am so grateful for
                                        your
                                        > dedication to this effort Edgar. The faithful Covenanter cause
                                        has
                                        > never been easy, and I expect over the coming years it will be
                                        even more
                                        > and more difficult for even the best to stay in the battle.
                                        >
                                        > Defend the brothers and the truth dear friend. I'll be back in
                                        Albany
                                        > soon. Pastor Price promised me a bed to rest in and another
                                        glorious
                                        > Lord's Supper to bow my head and my knee before our King. Your
                                        brother,
                                        > Walt. RPNA
                                        >
                                        > Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:
                                        >
                                        > > Dear walt,
                                        > >
                                        > > Thank you brother! And it is spelled Marines, with a
                                        > > capital "M"...
                                        > >
                                        > > ;-)
                                        > >
                                        > > Another FYI... we are never ex-Marines, but former Marines. Ex's
                                        > > are for wives and girl-friends...hehehehehehe.
                                        > >
                                        > > Yeah, Marine bravado, can't find any better...
                                        > >
                                        > > Looking forward when you are out this way in the future!
                                        > >
                                        > > Yours in Christ,
                                        > >
                                        > > Edgar
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, personalwg@c...
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > > Edgar, when I read your comments, I think of the
                                        following...the
                                        > > few,
                                        > > > the proud, the marines. And don't ever think that I for one
                                        > > minute
                                        > > > apply the worldly word of "proud" in the context I use if for
                                        > > you.
                                        > > > Rather, I love your diligence and defense of the truth dear
                                        > > brother.
                                        > > > For true covenanter cause, Walt.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > > Jerrold,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > "AMEN Matthew"?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > >In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free
                                        Church. I
                                        > > > > >think it is
                                        > > > > >a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen
                                        past
                                        > > > > >the personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                        > > > > >Settlement and have seen the light as to what constitutes
                                        the
                                        > > true
                                        > > > > >church and biblical terms of communion.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Presbyterianism established on Erastian precepts is
                                        > > unfaithfulness
                                        > > > > to the Truth of the doctrine of "jus divinum" of divine
                                        right.
                                        > > > > Remember, it was the Revolution Church that undid and
                                        backslide
                                        > > from
                                        > > > > the Covenanted Reformation that was rightly established on
                                        the
                                        > > > > premise of jus divinum and NOT on Erastian precepts.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > It was the Revolution Church established on precepts that
                                        ran
                                        > > > > contrary to everything that the faithful church of Scotland
                                        > > erected,
                                        > > > > by the very hand of God, during 1638-1649, that they were
                                        founded
                                        > > > > on. The Settlement essentially swept aside, as if it never
                                        > > > > happened, all of the Biblical santification and growth of the
                                        > > Church
                                        > > > > that occurred between 1638-1649, thereby overthrowing the
                                        > > wonderous
                                        > > > > work of God in His Church and looking to Princes to establish
                                        > > their
                                        > > > > own Zion on Earth.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Exaggeration? By leaving on the books the Acts Recissory,
                                        > > which
                                        > > > > called the GA of Scotland of 1638-1649 and the Westminister
                                        > > Assembly
                                        > > > > treasonous and rebellious, and not doing anything to undo
                                        that
                                        > > > > Demonic Act, the Revolution Church was founded not on
                                        faithful
                                        > > > > doctrine and on a Biblical basis, instead founded on the
                                        > > innovations
                                        > > > > of man and made man to establish a new "Presbyterian"
                                        church. It
                                        > > > > was the very few that refused to follow a multitude to do
                                        evil.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Jus Divinum is not just small potatotes or personal
                                        differences.
                                        > > > > That would be akin to saying that the manner of worship is
                                        > > something
                                        > > > > that is left to the innovations of man (like most American
                                        > > > > Presbyterian churches).
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The quarrel here is, who is Sovereign in the Church? King
                                        Jesus
                                        > > > > alone or Man? The Covenanters from way back in 1580 to the
                                        > > > > Revolution always asserted the Divine Right of
                                        Presbyterianism as
                                        > > > > established by God as the ONLY legit form of Church
                                        Government.
                                        > > The
                                        > > > > Revolution Settlement, established Presbyterianism because
                                        it was
                                        > > > > the sentiment of the people and according to the whims of
                                        William
                                        > > > > and the Parliament.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > History cannot be ignored just because the conclusion is
                                        > > dispiteful
                                        > > > > to many.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > RPCNA minister J.G. Vos documents this and does a host of
                                        other
                                        > > > > Covenanters and Seceeders (Thomas M'Crie) of the past.
                                        These are
                                        > > > > not my own inventions.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > For One Truth in Christ,
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Edgar Ibarra
                                        > > > > Communicant Member
                                        > > > > RPNA (GM)
                                        > > > > in Albany NY
                                        > > > > but originally
                                        > > > > from Aztlan.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H.
                                        > > Lewis"
                                        > > > > <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                                        > > > > > Amen Matthew.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Kind regards,
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Jerrold Lewis
                                        > > > > > www.apcvan.com
                                        > > > > > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free
                                        > > Church. I
                                        > > > > think it
                                        > > > > > is
                                        > > > > > a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have
                                        seen
                                        > > past
                                        > > > > the
                                        > > > > > personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                        > > > > Settlement and
                                        > > > > > have
                                        > > > > > seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and
                                        > > > > biblical terms
                                        > > > > > of
                                        > > > > > communion.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Yours sincerely,
                                        > > > > > Matthew Winzer
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > > > > > From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@v...>
                                        > > > > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                        > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                                        > > > > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Walt,
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall
                                        > > position
                                        > > > > on the
                                        > > > > > > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from
                                        > > joining
                                        > > > > the
                                        > > > > > > Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions
                                        > > about
                                        > > > > the
                                        > > > > > > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author
                                        > > specifically
                                        > > > > about those
                                        > > > > > > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when
                                        > > someone
                                        > > > > > > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then
                                        using
                                        > > that
                                        > > > > > > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall)
                                        > > > > argument. There
                                        > > > > > > is a really easy way to clear up what the author
                                        meant, as
                                        > > he
                                        > > > > is 1)
                                        > > > > > > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always
                                        willing
                                        > > to
                                        > > > > talk to
                                        > > > > > > folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this
                                        forum
                                        > > ought
                                        > > > > not to be
                                        > > > > > > met with silence. While others may construe this
                                        silence
                                        > > > > as "no leg to
                                        > > > > > > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and
                                        > > resources to
                                        > > > > construct
                                        > > > > > > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the
                                        > > challenger,
                                        > > > > mind you,
                                        > > > > > > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences
                                        > > > > troubled). And
                                        > > > > > > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter
                                        to
                                        > > be
                                        > > > > silent, I
                                        > > > > > > want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and
                                        > > > > substantial.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW
                                        > > DOWN!
                                        > > > > And let's
                                        > > > > > > quit it with the spitball replies. These objections
                                        > > brought
                                        > > > > up are not
                                        > > > > > > new... these things have been dealt with in various
                                        > > writings
                                        > > > > defending
                                        > > > > > > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many
                                        of
                                        > > you
                                        > > > > have access
                                        > > > > > > to older materials that would be very helpful in this.
                                        > > Make
                                        > > > > use of
                                        > > > > > > them. .
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Back to family matters,
                                        > > > > > > gmw.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > personalwg@c... wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >> Gerry,
                                        > > > > > >>
                                        > > > > > >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My
                                        suggestion
                                        > > is
                                        > > > > that
                                        > > > > > anyone
                                        > > > > > >> who has problems with a public document like
                                        Covenanted
                                        > > > > Reformation
                                        > > > > > >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email
                                        > > > > privately before
                                        > > > > > >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on
                                        this
                                        > > > > forum. The
                                        > > > > > >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker
                                        brethren on
                                        > > > > this list to
                                        > > > > > >> assume that the statements are true, and I have
                                        discovered
                                        > > > > there has
                                        > > > > > >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the
                                        > > author
                                        > > > > directly
                                        > > > > > >> and privately to explain their concerns on the
                                        subject in
                                        > > > > question.
                                        > > > > > >>
                                        > > > > > >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                                        > > > > > >>
                                        > > > > > >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I
                                        suggest
                                        > > > > anyone who
                                        > > > > > >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the
                                        > > Covenanted
                                        > > > > Reformation
                                        > > > > > >> Defended contact him directly at:
                                        > > > > > >>
                                        > > > > > >> Greg Barrow
                                        > > > > > >> 780-440-0272 phone
                                        > > > > > >> gkbarrow@s...
                                        > > > > > >>
                                        > > > > > >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen
                                        to my
                                        > > > > Elders be
                                        > > > > > >> rebuked publically for information that has been
                                        > > published.
                                        > > > > Therefore,
                                        > > > > > >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest
                                        that
                                        > > > > nothing
                                        > > > > > >> further be said on the subject until private
                                        discussions
                                        > > take
                                        > > > > place
                                        > > > > > >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were
                                        > > > > misrepresented in
                                        > > > > > >> the book and the author of the book himself. I know
                                        what
                                        > > > > comments on
                                        > > > > > >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause
                                        > > members in
                                        > > > > our
                                        > > > > > church
                                        > > > > > >> to question the truth.
                                        > > > > > >>
                                        > > > > > >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately
                                        > > with
                                        > > > > the author
                                        > > > > > >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements
                                        > > before
                                        > > > > they are
                                        > > > > > >> misrepresented on this forum.
                                        > > > > > >>
                                        > > > > > >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                                        > > > > > >>
                                        > > > > > >> For the cause of Christ,
                                        > > > > > >> Walt.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
                                        ----
                                        > > ----
                                        > > > > ---------
                                        > > > > > --
                                        > > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > a.. Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on
                                        the
                                        > > web.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                        > > Terms
                                        > > > > of
                                        > > > > > Service.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
                                        ----
                                        > > ----
                                        > > > > ---------
                                        > > > > > --
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                        > > > > True religion
                                        > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                        > >
                                        t=ms&k=True+religion&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theolo
                                        > >
                                        gy&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theo
                                        > > logy&c=6&s=134&.sig=VSbCXDQ0s_9LcSPzxd34Sg>
                                        > > > > Theology
                                        > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                        > >
                                        t=ms&k=Theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4
                                        > >
                                        =Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&
                                        > > c=6&s=134&.sig=fyxSTqLiRddGgtQLhzvMYw>
                                        > > > > Christian theology
                                        > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                        > >
                                        t=ms&k=Christian+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+t
                                        > >
                                        heology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic
                                        > > +theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=T37fyxaJM8idJvnJGk24Vg>
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Online theology degree
                                        > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                        > >
                                        t=ms&k=Online+theology+degree&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christi
                                        > >
                                        an+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=System
                                        > > atic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=7vOpul4KtJjrHeinXyMSWw>
                                        > > > > School of theology
                                        > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                        > >
                                        t=ms&k=School+of+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+t
                                        > >
                                        heology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic
                                        > > +theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=OPciTbAg48k_TXKGxfnUPA>
                                        > > > > Systematic theology
                                        > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                        > >
                                        t=ms&k=Systematic+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+
                                        > >
                                        theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systemati
                                        > > c+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=yzJWNx7nhHCcjllitzMPiA>
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
                                        ----
                                        > > -------
                                        > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                        > > > >
                                        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                                        > > on
                                        > > > > the web.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                        > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                        Terms
                                        > > of
                                        > > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
                                        ----
                                        > > -------
                                        > > > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                        -------
                                        > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                        > >
                                        > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                        > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                                        on
                                        > > the web.
                                        > >
                                        > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                        unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                        > >
                                        > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                        of
                                        > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                        -------
                                        > >
                                      • Willena
                                        There were 43 communicants participating that day, Edgar, and it truly was wonderful! Not only did we have live preaching for the first time in many months,
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Aug 16, 2005
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                                          There were 43 communicants participating that day, Edgar, and it truly
                                          was wonderful! Not only did we have live preaching for the first time in
                                          many months, but we had four baptisms and the Lord's Supper too. It was
                                          as many have already expressed... a foretaste of heaven.

                                          And may I say here, it was a privilege to meet you for the first time,
                                          Walter! You and a number of others I had known only through their posts
                                          on email lists.

                                          Willena, RPNA in Edmonton

                                          Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:

                                          > My brother Walt,
                                          >
                                          > > yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your
                                          > > orders! :) hehehehe,
                                          >
                                          > Sir? I was a SGT and not an officer, i.e. I worked for a living...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > ;-) I luv it...
                                          >
                                          > On the serious note, you will be in our prayers as you once again
                                          > trot the world. BTW congrats on becoming a communicant member! It
                                          > must have been wonderous having so many come to the common table to
                                          > partake of the Lord's Supper in Canada a few weeks ago! What was it
                                          > again, 50 something? Anyways, take care on your travels.
                                          >
                                          > Yours in Christ,
                                          > Edgar
                                        • personalwg@chartermi.net
                                          May the Lord bless you Willena!
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Aug 16, 2005
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                                            May the Lord bless you Willena!

                                            Willena wrote:

                                            > There were 43 communicants participating that day, Edgar, and it truly
                                            > was wonderful! Not only did we have live preaching for the first time in
                                            > many months, but we had four baptisms and the Lord's Supper too. It was
                                            > as many have already expressed... a foretaste of heaven.
                                            >
                                            > And may I say here, it was a privilege to meet you for the first time,
                                            > Walter! You and a number of others I had known only through their posts
                                            > on email lists.
                                            >
                                            > Willena, RPNA in Edmonton
                                            >
                                            > Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:
                                            >
                                            > > My brother Walt,
                                            > >
                                            > > > yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your
                                            > > > orders! :) hehehehe,
                                            > >
                                            > > Sir? I was a SGT and not an officer, i.e. I worked for a living...
                                            > >
                                            > >
                                            > > ;-) I luv it...
                                            > >
                                            > > On the serious note, you will be in our prayers as you once again
                                            > > trot the world. BTW congrats on becoming a communicant member! It
                                            > > must have been wonderous having so many come to the common table to
                                            > > partake of the Lord's Supper in Canada a few weeks ago! What was it
                                            > > again, 50 something? Anyways, take care on your travels.
                                            > >
                                            > > Yours in Christ,
                                            > > Edgar
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > SPONSORED LINKS
                                            > True religion
                                            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=True+religion&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=VSbCXDQ0s_9LcSPzxd34Sg>
                                            > Theology
                                            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=fyxSTqLiRddGgtQLhzvMYw>
                                            > Christian theology
                                            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Christian+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=T37fyxaJM8idJvnJGk24Vg>
                                            >
                                            > Online theology degree
                                            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Online+theology+degree&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=7vOpul4KtJjrHeinXyMSWw>
                                            > School of theology
                                            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=School+of+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=OPciTbAg48k_TXKGxfnUPA>
                                            > Systematic theology
                                            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Systematic+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=yzJWNx7nhHCcjllitzMPiA>
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                            > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                            >
                                            > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                            > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>" on
                                            > the web.
                                            >
                                            > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                            > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                            > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                            >
                                            > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                            > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                            >
                                          • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                                            ... These words are saddening. I would encourage my weaker brothers not to lose heart at the statements made in favor of the Revolution Church and such, as
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Aug 16, 2005
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                                              Walt wrote:

                                              >The comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                              >list to assume that the statements are true...

                                              These words are saddening. I would encourage my weaker brothers not
                                              to lose heart at the statements made in favor of the Revolution
                                              Church and such, as they have no historical nor sound doctrinal
                                              support. I have been told that I have yet to supply evidence, but I
                                              have echoed dozens of minister's words of the past, those of RPCNA
                                              and the RPNA (when formed after the RPCNA abandoned her faithful
                                              testimony). However supporters have yet to supply their sources of
                                              history that back up their statements and I have yet to find it
                                              echoed any where in history, except by Independants who praised
                                              the "Glorious" (as they call it) Revolution. I even quoted the Free
                                              Church's position on the Revolution Church, which the Free
                                              Presbyterian Church of Scotland echoed in agreement with, in which
                                              they even said the Revolution Settlement was not satisfactory, and
                                              that it failed to recognize the WORK OF THE LORD in His Church and
                                              that the Revolution Settlement undid the entire Second Reformation
                                              by leaving the Acts Recissory on the table as law. Both the Free
                                              and the FPCoS even allude that the Revolution Church is distinct to
                                              the Covenanted Church of Scotland of 1638-1649 in that statement.

                                              I encourage those shaken by mis-informed statements of history
                                              and undefensible claims against the Covenanted Reformation to study,
                                              as commanded by the Apostle Peter, to firm up their faith and
                                              strengthen it. This is not only a good suggestion, but commanded of
                                              God in His Word. These past weeks of intense historical study into
                                              these periods have only served to strengthen what I already held as
                                              true and to further establish the fact that indeed the Revolution
                                              Church is a schismatic and Erastian born church and that all the
                                              Presbyterian bodies descending from her perpetuate this schism, all
                                              the while giving lip service to our Covenanted fore-fathers, in
                                              which one of them said that all who rail and publish against the
                                              Covenants ought to be looked upon as enemies to it and dealt with
                                              accordingly. That was the often lauded (by Neo-Presbyterians, and
                                              rightly so) Rev. George Gillespie in chapter 14 of "A Treatise of
                                              Miscellany Questions", vol 2 of his works and actually quoted on the
                                              banner of this forum's home page.

                                              Gillespie surely would have seen the Revolution settlement as a
                                              betrayal and to be opposed furiously.

                                              My Covenanter brethren, shore upon your faith by studying, do not
                                              take my words for it nor the words of those that speak contrary to
                                              the Truth. YOU MUST STUDY FOR YOURSELF THESE MATTERS, do not be
                                              LAZY and allow others to think for you.

                                              TOLLE LEGE!

                                              Ignorance is the foundation of slavery. "When ignorance reigns life
                                              is lost".


                                              Soft words do not always carry truth.



                                              For the interest of my Covenanted brethren,

                                              Edgar Ibarra
                                              of Nican Tlaca
                                              of Cemanahuac
                                              of Mexica blood
                                              of the Anahuac Nation




                                              -- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, personalwg@c...
                                              wrote:
                                              > Gerry,
                                              >
                                              > I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that
                                              anyone
                                              > who has problems with a public document like Covenanted
                                              Reformation
                                              > Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately
                                              before
                                              > making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum.
                                              The
                                              > comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                              list to
                                              > assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there
                                              has
                                              > been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author
                                              directly
                                              > and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
                                              >
                                              > My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                                              >
                                              > Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone
                                              who
                                              > has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted
                                              Reformation
                                              > Defended contact him directly at:
                                              >
                                              > Greg Barrow
                                              > 780-440-0272 phone
                                              > gkbarrow@s...
                                              >
                                              > I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders
                                              be
                                              > rebuked publically for information that has been published.
                                              Therefore,
                                              > so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
                                              > further be said on the subject until private discussions take
                                              place
                                              > between those parties who suggests the reformers were
                                              misrepresented in
                                              > the book and the author of the book himself. I know what comments
                                              on
                                              > this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our
                                              church
                                              > to question the truth.
                                              >
                                              > Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the
                                              author
                                              > and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they
                                              are
                                              > misrepresented on this forum.
                                              >
                                              > Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                                              >
                                              > For the cause of Christ,
                                              > Walt.
                                              >
                                              > gmw wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > If we are going to post things to the group, let's post things
                                              that
                                              > > have some substance, that are for edification, and that are
                                              helpful to
                                              > > others.
                                              > >
                                              > > The less this group is like a fight club, the happier I'd be.
                                              > >
                                              > > gmw.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                              -------
                                              > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                              > >
                                              > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                              > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                                              on
                                              > > the web.
                                              > >
                                              > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                              unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                              > >
                                              > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                              of
                                              > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                              -------
                                              > >
                                            • gmw
                                              ... Yes they are. And I feel somewhat responsible for allowing this to happen in a forum designed for those who agree with Covenanter principles, not for any
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Aug 17, 2005
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                                                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                                                Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                                                > Walt wrote:
                                                >
                                                > >The comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                                > >list to assume that the statements are true...
                                                >
                                                > These words are saddening.

                                                Yes they are. And I feel somewhat responsible for allowing this to
                                                happen in a forum designed for those who agree with Covenanter
                                                principles, not for any Yahoo! to pipe off against Covenanter
                                                principles (that kind of stuff goes on in plenty of other forums). I
                                                struggle with whether or not to allow some conversations to continue.
                                                On one hand, I think it's good to be challenged, and I think that if
                                                our principles are sound, they can withstand a challenge. One the
                                                other hand, there is no guarantee that all challenges presented will
                                                be sufficiently answered (whether that be do to lack of time,
                                                resources, skills in logic, writing, or whatever), and that may cause
                                                some to stumble or to otherwise be troubled.

                                                I currently have in the "pending" area several posts which I may or
                                                may not allow to go through. From stuff defending the Independents
                                                (something very odd and wrong for Presbyterians to be doing), to more
                                                stuff saying that it's always wrong to separate from an essentially
                                                true Church (posted by someone who has publically stated his approval
                                                of at least one separation -- whether this is pure hypocracy, a case
                                                of special pleading, or just an unexplained anomaly, I cannot tell).

                                                I'll have to spend some time thinking about what is best to do.

                                                Forgive me if I've allowed this forum to be something bad, when I
                                                intended it to be only something good.

                                                gmw.
                                              • Jerrold H. Lewis
                                                Dear brother, Just to be sure I do not defend the Church Polity of the Independent divines. I hope my point is clear that it is the nature of the SL&C that I
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Aug 17, 2005
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                                                  Dear brother,

                                                  Just to be sure I do not defend the Church Polity of the Independent
                                                  divines. I hope my point is clear that it is the nature of the SL&C that I
                                                  am defending not the men who dissented. I'm simply using them as an example
                                                  of my point.

                                                  Kind regards,

                                                  Jerrold

                                                  zxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcv
                                                  Rev. Jerrold H. Lewis
                                                  Associated Presbyterian Church
                                                  Vancouver BC, Canada V3A 1P2
                                                  604.530.4123
                                                  jerlewis@...
                                                  http:/www.apcvan.com
                                                  http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                                                  zxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcv



                                                  -----Original Message-----
                                                  From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                  [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of gmw
                                                  Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:51 PM
                                                  To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: [BGSpam]Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


                                                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                                                  Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                                                  > Walt wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > >The comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                                  > >list to assume that the statements are true...
                                                  >
                                                  > These words are saddening.

                                                  Yes they are. And I feel somewhat responsible for allowing this to
                                                  happen in a forum designed for those who agree with Covenanter
                                                  principles, not for any Yahoo! to pipe off against Covenanter
                                                  principles (that kind of stuff goes on in plenty of other forums). I
                                                  struggle with whether or not to allow some conversations to continue.
                                                  On one hand, I think it's good to be challenged, and I think that if
                                                  our principles are sound, they can withstand a challenge. One the
                                                  other hand, there is no guarantee that all challenges presented will
                                                  be sufficiently answered (whether that be do to lack of time,
                                                  resources, skills in logic, writing, or whatever), and that may cause
                                                  some to stumble or to otherwise be troubled.

                                                  I currently have in the "pending" area several posts which I may or
                                                  may not allow to go through. From stuff defending the Independents
                                                  (something very odd and wrong for Presbyterians to be doing), to more
                                                  stuff saying that it's always wrong to separate from an essentially
                                                  true Church (posted by someone who has publically stated his approval
                                                  of at least one separation -- whether this is pure hypocracy, a case
                                                  of special pleading, or just an unexplained anomaly, I cannot tell).

                                                  I'll have to spend some time thinking about what is best to do.

                                                  Forgive me if I've allowed this forum to be something bad, when I
                                                  intended it to be only something good.

                                                  gmw.




                                                  SPONSORED LINKS True religion Theology Christian theology
                                                  Online theology degree School of theology Systematic theology



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                                                • gmw
                                                  I confess, I may have read your and other posts too hastily, and in a bad frame of mind. Please forgive me. gmw. ... that I ... example
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Aug 17, 2005
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                                                    I confess, I may have read your and other posts too hastily, and in a
                                                    bad frame of mind. Please forgive me.

                                                    gmw.

                                                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H. Lewis"
                                                    <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                                                    > Dear brother,
                                                    >
                                                    > Just to be sure I do not defend the Church Polity of the Independent
                                                    > divines. I hope my point is clear that it is the nature of the SL&C
                                                    that I
                                                    > am defending not the men who dissented. I'm simply using them as an
                                                    example
                                                    > of my point.
                                                    >
                                                    > Kind regards,
                                                    >
                                                    > Jerrold
                                                    >
                                                    > zxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcv
                                                    > Rev. Jerrold H. Lewis
                                                    > Associated Presbyterian Church
                                                    > Vancouver BC, Canada V3A 1P2
                                                    > 604.530.4123
                                                    > jerlewis@t...
                                                    > http:/www.apcvan.com
                                                    > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                                                    > zxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcv
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > -----Original Message-----
                                                    > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of gmw
                                                    > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:51 PM
                                                    > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                    > Subject: [BGSpam]Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                                                    > Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                                                    > > Walt wrote:
                                                    > >
                                                    > > >The comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                                    > > >list to assume that the statements are true...
                                                    > >
                                                    > > These words are saddening.
                                                    >
                                                    > Yes they are. And I feel somewhat responsible for allowing this to
                                                    > happen in a forum designed for those who agree with Covenanter
                                                    > principles, not for any Yahoo! to pipe off against Covenanter
                                                    > principles (that kind of stuff goes on in plenty of other forums). I
                                                    > struggle with whether or not to allow some conversations to continue.
                                                    > On one hand, I think it's good to be challenged, and I think that if
                                                    > our principles are sound, they can withstand a challenge. One the
                                                    > other hand, there is no guarantee that all challenges presented will
                                                    > be sufficiently answered (whether that be do to lack of time,
                                                    > resources, skills in logic, writing, or whatever), and that may cause
                                                    > some to stumble or to otherwise be troubled.
                                                    >
                                                    > I currently have in the "pending" area several posts which I may or
                                                    > may not allow to go through. From stuff defending the Independents
                                                    > (something very odd and wrong for Presbyterians to be doing), to more
                                                    > stuff saying that it's always wrong to separate from an essentially
                                                    > true Church (posted by someone who has publically stated his approval
                                                    > of at least one separation -- whether this is pure hypocracy, a case
                                                    > of special pleading, or just an unexplained anomaly, I cannot tell).
                                                    >
                                                    > I'll have to spend some time thinking about what is best to do.
                                                    >
                                                    > Forgive me if I've allowed this forum to be something bad, when I
                                                    > intended it to be only something good.
                                                    >
                                                    > gmw.
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > SPONSORED LINKS True religion Theology Christian theology
                                                    > Online theology degree School of theology Systematic theology
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    >
                                                    > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                                    >
                                                    > Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the web.
                                                    >
                                                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                    > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                    >
                                                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                                  • Jerrold H. Lewis
                                                    Brother, the internet can be a place of ambiguity at times. I completely understand. Kind regards, Jerrold ... From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Aug 17, 2005
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                                                      Brother, the internet can be a place of ambiguity at times. I completely understand.
                                                       
                                                      Kind regards,
                                                       
                                                      Jerrold
                                                      -----Original Message-----
                                                      From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of gmw
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:42 PM
                                                      To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Subject: [BGSpam][BGSpam]Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


                                                      I confess, I may have read your and other posts too hastily, and in a
                                                      bad frame of mind.  Please forgive me.

                                                      gmw.

                                                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H. Lewis"
                                                      <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                                                      > Dear brother,
                                                      >
                                                      > Just to be sure I do not defend the Church Polity of the Independent
                                                      > divines. I hope my point is clear that it is the nature of the SL&C
                                                      that I
                                                      > am defending not the men who dissented. I'm simply using them as an
                                                      example
                                                      > of my point.
                                                      >
                                                      > Kind regards,
                                                      >
                                                      > Jerrold
                                                      >
                                                      > zxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcv
                                                      > Rev. Jerrold H. Lewis
                                                      > Associated Presbyterian Church
                                                      > Vancouver BC, Canada V3A 1P2
                                                      > 604.530.4123
                                                      > jerlewis@t...
                                                      > http:/www.apcvan.com
                                                      > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                                                      > zxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcv
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                      > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of gmw
                                                      > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:51 PM
                                                      > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Subject: [BGSpam]Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                                                      > Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                                                      > > Walt wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > >The comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                                      > > >list to assume that the statements are true...
                                                      > >
                                                      > > These words are saddening.
                                                      >
                                                      > Yes they are.  And I feel somewhat responsible for allowing this to
                                                      > happen in a forum designed for those who agree with Covenanter
                                                      > principles, not for any Yahoo! to pipe off against Covenanter
                                                      > principles (that kind of stuff goes on in plenty of other forums).  I
                                                      > struggle with whether or not to allow some conversations to continue.
                                                      > On one hand, I think it's good to be challenged, and I think that if
                                                      > our principles are sound, they can withstand a challenge.  One the
                                                      > other hand, there is no guarantee that all challenges presented will
                                                      > be sufficiently answered (whether that be do to lack of time,
                                                      > resources, skills in logic, writing, or whatever), and that may cause
                                                      > some to stumble or to otherwise be troubled.
                                                      >
                                                      > I currently have in the "pending" area several posts which I may or
                                                      > may not allow to go through.   From stuff defending the Independents
                                                      > (something very odd and wrong for Presbyterians to be doing), to more
                                                      > stuff saying that it's always wrong to separate from an essentially
                                                      > true Church (posted by someone who has publically stated his approval
                                                      > of at least one separation -- whether this is pure hypocracy, a case
                                                      > of special pleading, or just an unexplained anomaly, I cannot tell).
                                                      >
                                                      > I'll have to spend some time thinking about what is best to do.
                                                      >
                                                      > Forgive me if I've allowed this forum to be something bad, when I
                                                      > intended it to be only something good.
                                                      >
                                                      > gmw.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > SPONSORED LINKS True religion Theology Christian theology
                                                      > Online theology degree School of theology Systematic theology
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                                      >
                                                      >  Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the web.
                                                      >
                                                      >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                      >  covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >
                                                      >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                                                    • Matthew Winzer
                                                      Am I to assume that every post I send pertaining to church constitution and separation is now going to be censored. Please let me know so that I do not waste
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Aug 17, 2005
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Am I to assume that every post I send pertaining to church constitution and
                                                        separation is now going to be censored. Please let me know so that I do not
                                                        waste time writing to the list.

                                                        Yours sincerely,
                                                        Matthew Winzer


                                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                                        From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
                                                        To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                                        Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 6:50 AM
                                                        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


                                                        > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                                                        > Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                                                        >> Walt wrote:
                                                        >>
                                                        >> >The comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                                        >> >list to assume that the statements are true...
                                                        >>
                                                        >> These words are saddening.
                                                        >
                                                        > Yes they are. And I feel somewhat responsible for allowing this to
                                                        > happen in a forum designed for those who agree with Covenanter
                                                        > principles, not for any Yahoo! to pipe off against Covenanter
                                                        > principles (that kind of stuff goes on in plenty of other forums). I
                                                        > struggle with whether or not to allow some conversations to continue.
                                                        > On one hand, I think it's good to be challenged, and I think that if
                                                        > our principles are sound, they can withstand a challenge. One the
                                                        > other hand, there is no guarantee that all challenges presented will
                                                        > be sufficiently answered (whether that be do to lack of time,
                                                        > resources, skills in logic, writing, or whatever), and that may cause
                                                        > some to stumble or to otherwise be troubled.
                                                        >
                                                        > I currently have in the "pending" area several posts which I may or
                                                        > may not allow to go through. From stuff defending the Independents
                                                        > (something very odd and wrong for Presbyterians to be doing), to more
                                                        > stuff saying that it's always wrong to separate from an essentially
                                                        > true Church (posted by someone who has publically stated his approval
                                                        > of at least one separation -- whether this is pure hypocracy, a case
                                                        > of special pleading, or just an unexplained anomaly, I cannot tell).
                                                        >
                                                        > I'll have to spend some time thinking about what is best to do.
                                                        >
                                                        > Forgive me if I've allowed this forum to be something bad, when I
                                                        > intended it to be only something good.
                                                        >
                                                        > gmw.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                      • gmw
                                                        ... constitution and ... I do not ... No, not necessarily. I m just taking the time to think about things, and I ll hold on to what I got until I figure that
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Aug 17, 2005
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                                                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Winzer"
                                                          <mwinzer@p...> wrote:
                                                          > Am I to assume that every post I send pertaining to church
                                                          constitution and
                                                          > separation is now going to be censored. Please let me know so that
                                                          I do not
                                                          > waste time writing to the list.

                                                          No, not necessarily. I'm just taking the time to think about things,
                                                          and I'll hold on to what I got until I figure that out.

                                                          No one wants you to waste your time. You have a flock to feed.

                                                          gmw.
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