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  • gmw
    If we are going to post things to the group, let s post things that have some substance, that are for edification, and that are helpful to others. The less
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 15 5:34 AM
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      If we are going to post things to the group, let's post things that
      have some substance, that are for edification, and that are helpful to
      others.

      The less this group is like a fight club, the happier I'd be.

      gmw.
    • personalwg@chartermi.net
      Gerry, I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that anyone who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation Defended
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 15 6:56 AM
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        Gerry,

        I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that anyone
        who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
        Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
        making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum. The
        comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
        assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
        been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
        and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.

        My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.

        Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
        has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
        Defended contact him directly at:

        Greg Barrow
        780-440-0272 phone
        gkbarrow@...

        I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
        rebuked publically for information that has been published. Therefore,
        so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
        further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
        between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
        the book and the author of the book himself. I know what comments on
        this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
        to question the truth.

        Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
        and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
        misrepresented on this forum.

        Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.

        For the cause of Christ,
        Walt.

        gmw wrote:

        > If we are going to post things to the group, let's post things that
        > have some substance, that are for edification, and that are helpful to
        > others.
        >
        > The less this group is like a fight club, the happier I'd be.
        >
        > gmw.
        >
        >
        >
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      • Glenn Ferrell
        Though I ve not been part of this current discussion, I would suggest that once something has been PUBLISHED it is a public document and may be publicly
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 15 7:20 AM
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          Though I've not been part of this current discussion, I would suggest that once something has been PUBLISHED it is a public document and may be publicly commented on.  After all, isn't public examination and discussion the purpose of publication.   
           
          Glenn Ferrell
          SRPC, Boise, ID
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 7:56 AM
          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...

          Gerry,

          I agree with your position wholeheartedly.  My suggestion is that anyone
          who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
          Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
          making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum.  The
          comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
          assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
          been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
          and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.

          My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.

          Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
          has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
          Defended contact him directly at:

          Greg Barrow
          780-440-0272 phone
          gkbarrow@...

          I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
          rebuked publically for information that has been published.  Therefore,
          so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
          further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
          between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
          the book and the author of the book himself.  I know what comments on
          this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
          to question the truth.

          Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
          and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
          misrepresented on this forum.

          Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.

          For the cause of Christ,
          Walt.

          gmw wrote:


        • gmw
          Walt, I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall position on the Covenants, and on the society people s refraining from joining the Revolution
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 15 7:22 AM
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            Walt,

            I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall position on the
            Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from joining the
            Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions about the
            Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author specifically about those
            questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when someone
            attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using that
            explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall) argument. There
            is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as he is 1)
            still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing to talk to
            folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this forum ought not to be
            met with silence. While others may construe this silence as "no leg to
            stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and resources to construct
            a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the challenger, mind you,
            but to satisfy those who have had their consciences troubled). And
            therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to be silent, I
            want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and substantial.

            COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW DOWN! And let's
            quit it with the spitball replies. These objections brought up are not
            new... these things have been dealt with in various writings defending
            the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many of you have access
            to older materials that would be very helpful in this. Make use of
            them. Btw, the RPCNA is in the same boat with the "Steelites" on this
            one... they must also defend, and have in the past defended, their
            refusal to join with the Revolution Church.

            Back to family matters,
            gmw.


            personalwg@... wrote:

            > Gerry,
            >
            > I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that anyone
            > who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
            > Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
            > making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum. The
            > comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
            > assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
            > been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
            > and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
            >
            > My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
            >
            > Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
            > has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
            > Defended contact him directly at:
            >
            > Greg Barrow
            > 780-440-0272 phone
            > gkbarrow@...
            >
            > I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
            > rebuked publically for information that has been published. Therefore,
            > so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
            > further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
            > between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
            > the book and the author of the book himself. I know what comments on
            > this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
            > to question the truth.
            >
            > Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
            > and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
            > misrepresented on this forum.
            >
            > Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
            >
            > For the cause of Christ,
            > Walt.
          • Matthew Winzer
            How about Walt does not cite blocks of text from the book anymore; and then I will not feel compelled to show the inaccuracy of its statements; then Walt will
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 15 7:27 AM
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              How about Walt does not cite blocks of text from the book anymore; and then
              I will not feel compelled to show the inaccuracy of its statements; then
              Walt will not have to feel concerned over people thinking through these
              issues.

              Yours sincerely,
              Matthew Winzer


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <personalwg@...>
              To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 11:56 PM
              Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


              > Gerry,
              >
              > I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that anyone
              > who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
              > Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
              > making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum. The
              > comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
              > assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
              > been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
              > and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
              >
              > My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
              >
              > Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
              > has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
              > Defended contact him directly at:
              >
              > Greg Barrow
              > 780-440-0272 phone
              > gkbarrow@...
              >
              > I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
              > rebuked publically for information that has been published. Therefore,
              > so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
              > further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
              > between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
              > the book and the author of the book himself. I know what comments on
              > this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
              > to question the truth.
              >
              > Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
              > and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
              > misrepresented on this forum.
              >
              > Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
              >
              > For the cause of Christ,
              > Walt.
              >
              > gmw wrote:
              >
              >> If we are going to post things to the group, let's post things that
              >> have some substance, that are for edification, and that are helpful to
              >> others.
              >>
              >> The less this group is like a fight club, the happier I'd be.
              >>
              >> gmw.
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
              >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
              >>
              >> * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
              >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>" on
              >> the web.
              >>
              >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              >> covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >>
              >> <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
              >>
              >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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              >>
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            • Matthew Winzer
              ... In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I think it is a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past the personal
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 15 7:47 AM
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                >>>Btw, the RPCNA is in the same boat with the "Steelites" on this
                > one... they must also defend, and have in the past defended, their
                > refusal to join with the Revolution Church<<<

                In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I think it is
                a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past the
                personal differences of various camps at the Revolution Settlement and have
                seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and biblical terms of
                communion.

                Yours sincerely,
                Matthew Winzer


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
                To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


                > Walt,
                >
                > I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall position on the
                > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from joining the
                > Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions about the
                > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author specifically about those
                > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when someone
                > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using that
                > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall) argument. There
                > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as he is 1)
                > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing to talk to
                > folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this forum ought not to be
                > met with silence. While others may construe this silence as "no leg to
                > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and resources to construct
                > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the challenger, mind you,
                > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences troubled). And
                > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to be silent, I
                > want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and substantial.
                >
                > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW DOWN! And let's
                > quit it with the spitball replies. These objections brought up are not
                > new... these things have been dealt with in various writings defending
                > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many of you have access
                > to older materials that would be very helpful in this. Make use of
                > them. .
                >
                > Back to family matters,
                > gmw.
                >
                >
                > personalwg@... wrote:
                >
                >> Gerry,
                >>
                >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that anyone
                >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
                >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
                >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum. The
                >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
                >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
                >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
                >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
                >>
                >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                >>
                >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
                >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
                >> Defended contact him directly at:
                >>
                >> Greg Barrow
                >> 780-440-0272 phone
                >> gkbarrow@...
                >>
                >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
                >> rebuked publically for information that has been published. Therefore,
                >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
                >> further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
                >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
                >> the book and the author of the book himself. I know what comments on
                >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
                >> to question the truth.
                >>
                >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
                >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
                >> misrepresented on this forum.
                >>
                >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                >>
                >> For the cause of Christ,
                >> Walt.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • gmw
                I m not a big fan of block quotes from that book. I ve not read it myself, other than chunks of it here and there. But I do get confused as to what the
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 15 7:52 AM
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                  I'm not a big fan of block quotes from that book. I've not read it
                  myself, other than chunks of it here and there. But I do get confused
                  as to what the esse/bene esse thing has to do with some of these issues
                  AT ALL.

                  To me, it would be MUCH MORE HELPFUL to distinguish between lawfully
                  established churches vs. unlawfully established churches, when dealing
                  with the Revolution Church issue. But like I said before, I'm just a
                  private man and a noob.

                  gmw.

                  Matthew Winzer wrote:

                  > How about Walt does not cite blocks of text from the book anymore; and
                  > then
                  > I will not feel compelled to show the inaccuracy of its statements; then
                  > Walt will not have to feel concerned over people thinking through these
                  > issues.
                  >
                  > Yours sincerely,
                  > Matthew Winzer
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: <personalwg@...>
                  > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 11:56 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                  >
                  >
                  > > Gerry,
                  > >
                  > > I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that anyone
                  > > who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
                  > > Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
                  > > making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum. The
                  > > comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
                  > > assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
                  > > been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
                  > > and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
                  > >
                  > > My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                  > >
                  > > Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
                  > > has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
                  > > Defended contact him directly at:
                  > >
                  > > Greg Barrow
                  > > 780-440-0272 phone
                  > > gkbarrow@...
                  > >
                  > > I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
                  > > rebuked publically for information that has been published. Therefore,
                  > > so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
                  > > further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
                  > > between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
                  > > the book and the author of the book himself. I know what comments on
                  > > this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
                  > > to question the truth.
                  > >
                  > > Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
                  > > and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
                  > > misrepresented on this forum.
                  > >
                  > > Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                  > >
                  > > For the cause of Christ,
                  > > Walt.
                  > >
                  > > gmw wrote:
                  > >
                  > >> If we are going to post things to the group, let's post things that
                  > >> have some substance, that are for edification, and that are helpful to
                  > >> others.
                  > >>
                  > >> The less this group is like a fight club, the happier I'd be.
                  > >>
                  > >> gmw.
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                  > >> YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                  > >>
                  > >> * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                  > >> <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>" on
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                • gmw
                  ... The best RP s hold firm to the RP principles, and so the issue then is not who is best and what they did, but the principles themselves, and whether
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 15 8:05 AM
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                    Matthew Winzer wrote:

                    > >>>Btw, the RPCNA is in the same boat with the "Steelites" on this
                    > > one... they must also defend, and have in the past defended, their
                    > > refusal to join with the Revolution Church<<<
                    >
                    > In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church.

                    The best RP's hold firm to the RP principles, and so the issue then is
                    not who is best and what they did, but the principles themselves, and
                    whether principles are biblical or not.

                    > I think it is
                    > a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past the
                    > personal differences of various camps at the Revolution Settlement and
                    > have
                    > seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and biblical
                    > terms of
                    > communion.

                    Did we not agree that separation is at times warranted without declaring
                    the church separated from as a "false church"?

                    gmw.
                  • Matthew Winzer
                    ... That is knotty seeing that RP principles were enmeshed in the personal controversies surrounding redress at the Revolution Settlement. Someone like
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 15 8:21 AM
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                      >>>> The best RP's hold firm to the RP principles, and so the issue then is
                      > not who is best and what they did, but the principles themselves, and
                      > whether principles are biblical or not.<<<

                      That is knotty seeing that RP principles were enmeshed in the personal
                      controversies surrounding redress at the Revolution Settlement. Someone
                      like William Symington could see through those personal differences, and
                      when the Disruption occurred in 1843 could give his approval to the Free
                      Church as essentially maintaining the RP testimony, especially as relating
                      to Patronage.

                      >>>Did we not agree that separation is at times warranted without declaring
                      > the church separated from as a "false church"?<<<

                      Yes, there were guidelines provided as to when it was right to separate from
                      a church, none of which apply (nor has any evidence been provided that they
                      do apply) to the post Revolution Church. Hence I stick by my statement
                      concerning the best RP men in relation to the Revolution church.

                      Yours sincerely,
                      Matthew Winzer


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
                      To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 1:05 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


                      >
                      >
                      > Matthew Winzer wrote:
                      >
                      >> >>>Btw, the RPCNA is in the same boat with the "Steelites" on this
                      >> > one... they must also defend, and have in the past defended, their
                      >> > refusal to join with the Revolution Church<<<
                      >>
                      >> In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church.
                      >
                      > The best RP's hold firm to the RP principles, and so the issue then is
                      > not who is best and what they did, but the principles themselves, and
                      > whether principles are biblical or not.
                      >
                      >> I think it is
                      >> a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past the
                      >> personal differences of various camps at the Revolution Settlement and
                      >> have
                      >> seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and biblical
                      >> terms of
                      >> communion.
                      >
                      > Did we not agree that separation is at times warranted without declaring
                      > the church separated from as a "false church"?
                      >
                      > gmw.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Jerrold H. Lewis
                      Amen Matthew. Kind regards, Jerrold Lewis www.apcvan.com http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/ In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I think
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 15 9:23 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Amen Matthew.
                         
                        Kind regards,
                         
                        Jerrold Lewis

                        In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church.  I think it is
                        a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past the
                        personal differences of various camps at the Revolution Settlement and have
                        seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and biblical terms of
                        communion.

                        Yours sincerely,
                        Matthew Winzer


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
                        To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


                        > Walt,
                        >
                        > I agree with you on several counts.  1. Your overall position on the
                        > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from joining the
                        > Revolution Church.  2.  That folks that have questions about the
                        > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author specifically about those
                        > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when someone
                        > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using that
                        > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall) argument.  There
                        > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as he is 1)
                        > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing to talk to
                        > folks.  3.  That the challenges brought up in this forum ought not to be
                        > met with silence.  While others may construe this silence as "no leg to
                        > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and resources to construct
                        > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the challenger, mind you,
                        > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences troubled).  And
                        > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to be silent, I
                        > want you to be LOUD.  But not simply loud, but loud and substantial.
                        >
                        > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW DOWN!  And let's
                        > quit it with the spitball replies.  These objections brought up are not
                        > new... these things have been dealt with in various writings defending
                        > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church.  Many of you have access
                        > to older materials that would be very helpful in this.  Make use of
                        > them.  .
                        >
                        > Back to family matters,
                        > gmw.
                        >
                        >
                        > personalwg@... wrote:
                        >
                        >> Gerry,
                        >>
                        >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly.  My suggestion is that anyone
                        >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
                        >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
                        >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum.  The
                        >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
                        >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
                        >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
                        >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
                        >>
                        >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                        >>
                        >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
                        >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
                        >> Defended contact him directly at:
                        >>
                        >> Greg Barrow
                        >> 780-440-0272 phone
                        >> gkbarrow@...
                        >>
                        >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
                        >> rebuked publically for information that has been published.  Therefore,
                        >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
                        >> further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
                        >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
                        >> the book and the author of the book himself.  I know what comments on
                        >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
                        >> to question the truth.
                        >>
                        >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
                        >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
                        >> misrepresented on this forum.
                        >>
                        >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                        >>
                        >> For the cause of Christ,
                        >> Walt.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                      • Glenn Ferrell
                        The Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland still affirms the binding nature of the Covenants. They also have a close relationship with the Free Church of
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 15 10:50 AM
                        • 0 Attachment
                          The Reformed Presbyterian Church of Ireland still affirms the binding nature of the Covenants.  They also have a close relationship with the Free Church of Scotland and the Free Church of Scotland Continuing, though these latter groups came out of the Revolutionary settlementchurch.  At the same time, they keep reminding their Free Church brothers of the importance of the Covenants.
                           
                          In my experience, I've heard a RPCI minister preach in a FCC congregation and heard him remind them of the Covenants and their need to affirm them.  I've also know of FCC ministers to preach in RPCI congregations and they have sent students to each other's seminaries.
                           
                          An important question, do we have no ecclesiastical relations, pulpit exchanges, intercommunion, with sound groups who disagree with minute points concerning these matters.  Seems more is to be gained by keeping the discussion going on these matters. 
                           
                          Glenn Ferrell
                          SRPC, Boise, ID
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 8:47 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...

                          >>>Btw, the RPCNA is in the same boat with the "Steelites" on this
                          > one... they must also defend, and have in the past defended, their
                          > refusal to join with the Revolution Church<<<

                          In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church.  I think it is
                          a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past the
                          personal differences of various camps at the Revolution Settlement and have
                          seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and biblical terms of
                          communion.

                          Yours sincerely,
                          Matthew Winzer


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
                          To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


                          > Walt,
                          >
                          > I agree with you on several counts.  1. Your overall position on the
                          > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from joining the
                          > Revolution Church.  2.  That folks that have questions about the
                          > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author specifically about those
                          > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when someone
                          > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using that
                          > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall) argument.  There
                          > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as he is 1)
                          > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing to talk to
                          > folks.  3.  That the challenges brought up in this forum ought not to be
                          > met with silence.  While others may construe this silence as "no leg to
                          > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and resources to construct
                          > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the challenger, mind you,
                          > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences troubled).  And
                          > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to be silent, I
                          > want you to be LOUD.  But not simply loud, but loud and substantial.
                          >
                          > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW DOWN!  And let's
                          > quit it with the spitball replies.  These objections brought up are not
                          > new... these things have been dealt with in various writings defending
                          > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church.  Many of you have access
                          > to older materials that would be very helpful in this.  Make use of
                          > them.  .
                          >
                          > Back to family matters,
                          > gmw.
                          >
                          >
                          > personalwg@... wrote:
                          >
                          >> Gerry,
                          >>
                          >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly.  My suggestion is that anyone
                          >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted Reformation
                          >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately before
                          >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum.  The
                          >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this list to
                          >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there has
                          >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author directly
                          >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
                          >>
                          >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                          >>
                          >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone who
                          >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted Reformation
                          >> Defended contact him directly at:
                          >>
                          >> Greg Barrow
                          >> 780-440-0272 phone
                          >> gkbarrow@...
                          >>
                          >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders be
                          >> rebuked publically for information that has been published.  Therefore,
                          >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
                          >> further be said on the subject until private discussions take place
                          >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were misrepresented in
                          >> the book and the author of the book himself.  I know what comments on
                          >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our church
                          >> to question the truth.
                          >>
                          >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the author
                          >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they are
                          >> misrepresented on this forum.
                          >>
                          >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                          >>
                          >> For the cause of Christ,
                          >> Walt.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >



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                        • gmw
                          ... differences, and ... Free ... relating ... Do you approve of this separation from the established Church of Scotland? ... declaring ... separate from ...
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 15 11:46 AM
                          • 0 Attachment
                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Winzer"
                            <mwinzer@p...> wrote:

                            > Someone
                            > like William Symington could see through those personal
                            differences, and
                            > when the Disruption occurred in 1843 could give his approval to the
                            Free
                            > Church as essentially maintaining the RP testimony, especially as
                            relating
                            > to Patronage.

                            Do you approve of this separation from the established Church of
                            Scotland?

                            > >>>Did we not agree that separation is at times warranted without
                            declaring
                            > > the church separated from as a "false church"?<<<
                            >
                            > Yes, there were guidelines provided as to when it was right to
                            separate from
                            > a church, none of which apply (nor has any evidence been provided
                            that they
                            > do apply) to the post Revolution Church.

                            What guidelines are you talking about? And do you mean that
                            evidences were never provided, or that they were not provided to you
                            in this meagre forum?

                            > Hence I stick by my statement
                            > concerning the best RP men in relation to the Revolution church.

                            I'm confused now, as I thought your statements were regarding the
                            Disruption, where folks broke away from the established Revolution
                            Church, on at least some of the same principles that the RP's
                            dissented from it.

                            gmw.
                          • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                            Jerrold, AMEN Matthew ? ... Presbyterianism established on Erastian precepts is unfaithfulness to the Truth of the doctrine of jus divinum of divine right.
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 15 3:55 PM
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Jerrold,

                              "AMEN Matthew"?

                              >In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I
                              >think it is
                              >a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past
                              >the personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                              >Settlement and have seen the light as to what constitutes the true
                              >church and biblical terms of communion.


                              Presbyterianism established on Erastian precepts is unfaithfulness
                              to the Truth of the doctrine of "jus divinum" of divine right.
                              Remember, it was the Revolution Church that undid and backslide from
                              the Covenanted Reformation that was rightly established on the
                              premise of jus divinum and NOT on Erastian precepts.

                              It was the Revolution Church established on precepts that ran
                              contrary to everything that the faithful church of Scotland erected,
                              by the very hand of God, during 1638-1649, that they were founded
                              on. The Settlement essentially swept aside, as if it never
                              happened, all of the Biblical santification and growth of the Church
                              that occurred between 1638-1649, thereby overthrowing the wonderous
                              work of God in His Church and looking to Princes to establish their
                              own Zion on Earth.

                              Exaggeration? By leaving on the books the Acts Recissory, which
                              called the GA of Scotland of 1638-1649 and the Westminister Assembly
                              treasonous and rebellious, and not doing anything to undo that
                              Demonic Act, the Revolution Church was founded not on faithful
                              doctrine and on a Biblical basis, instead founded on the innovations
                              of man and made man to establish a new "Presbyterian" church. It
                              was the very few that refused to follow a multitude to do evil.

                              Jus Divinum is not just small potatotes or personal differences.
                              That would be akin to saying that the manner of worship is something
                              that is left to the innovations of man (like most American
                              Presbyterian churches).

                              The quarrel here is, who is Sovereign in the Church? King Jesus
                              alone or Man? The Covenanters from way back in 1580 to the
                              Revolution always asserted the Divine Right of Presbyterianism as
                              established by God as the ONLY legit form of Church Government. The
                              Revolution Settlement, established Presbyterianism because it was
                              the sentiment of the people and according to the whims of William
                              and the Parliament.


                              History cannot be ignored just because the conclusion is dispiteful
                              to many.

                              RPCNA minister J.G. Vos documents this and does a host of other
                              Covenanters and Seceeders (Thomas M'Crie) of the past. These are
                              not my own inventions.



                              For One Truth in Christ,

                              Edgar Ibarra
                              Communicant Member
                              RPNA (GM)
                              in Albany NY
                              but originally
                              from Aztlan.



                              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H. Lewis"
                              <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                              > Amen Matthew.
                              >
                              > Kind regards,
                              >
                              > Jerrold Lewis
                              > www.apcvan.com
                              > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                              >
                              > In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I
                              think it
                              > is
                              > a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past
                              the
                              > personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                              Settlement and
                              > have
                              > seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and
                              biblical terms
                              > of
                              > communion.
                              >
                              > Yours sincerely,
                              > Matthew Winzer
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@v...>
                              > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                              >
                              >
                              > > Walt,
                              > >
                              > > I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall position
                              on the
                              > > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from joining
                              the
                              > > Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions about
                              the
                              > > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author specifically
                              about those
                              > > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when someone
                              > > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using that
                              > > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall)
                              argument. There
                              > > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as he
                              is 1)
                              > > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing to
                              talk to
                              > > folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this forum ought
                              not to be
                              > > met with silence. While others may construe this silence
                              as "no leg to
                              > > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and resources to
                              construct
                              > > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the challenger,
                              mind you,
                              > > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences
                              troubled). And
                              > > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to be
                              silent, I
                              > > want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and
                              substantial.
                              > >
                              > > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW DOWN!
                              And let's
                              > > quit it with the spitball replies. These objections brought
                              up are not
                              > > new... these things have been dealt with in various writings
                              defending
                              > > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many of you
                              have access
                              > > to older materials that would be very helpful in this. Make
                              use of
                              > > them. .
                              > >
                              > > Back to family matters,
                              > > gmw.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > personalwg@c... wrote:
                              > >
                              > >> Gerry,
                              > >>
                              > >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is
                              that
                              > anyone
                              > >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted
                              Reformation
                              > >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email
                              privately before
                              > >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this
                              forum. The
                              > >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on
                              this list to
                              > >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered
                              there has
                              > >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author
                              directly
                              > >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in
                              question.
                              > >>
                              > >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                              > >>
                              > >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest
                              anyone who
                              > >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted
                              Reformation
                              > >> Defended contact him directly at:
                              > >>
                              > >> Greg Barrow
                              > >> 780-440-0272 phone
                              > >> gkbarrow@s...
                              > >>
                              > >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my
                              Elders be
                              > >> rebuked publically for information that has been published.
                              Therefore,
                              > >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that
                              nothing
                              > >> further be said on the subject until private discussions take
                              place
                              > >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were
                              misrepresented in
                              > >> the book and the author of the book himself. I know what
                              comments on
                              > >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in
                              our
                              > church
                              > >> to question the truth.
                              > >>
                              > >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with
                              the author
                              > >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before
                              they are
                              > >> misrepresented on this forum.
                              > >>
                              > >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                              > >>
                              > >> For the cause of Christ,
                              > >> Walt.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                              ---------
                              > --
                              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                              >
                              > a.. Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the web.
                              >
                              > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                              of
                              > Service.
                              >
                              >
                              > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                              ---------
                              > --
                            • personalwg@chartermi.net
                              Edgar, when I read your comments, I think of the following...the few, the proud, the marines. And don t ever think that I for one minute apply the worldly
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 15 5:11 PM
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Edgar, when I read your comments, I think of the following...the few,
                                the proud, the marines. And don't ever think that I for one minute
                                apply the worldly word of "proud" in the context I use if for you.
                                Rather, I love your diligence and defense of the truth dear brother.
                                For true covenanter cause, Walt.

                                Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:

                                > Jerrold,
                                >
                                > "AMEN Matthew"?
                                >
                                > >In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I
                                > >think it is
                                > >a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past
                                > >the personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                > >Settlement and have seen the light as to what constitutes the true
                                > >church and biblical terms of communion.
                                >
                                >
                                > Presbyterianism established on Erastian precepts is unfaithfulness
                                > to the Truth of the doctrine of "jus divinum" of divine right.
                                > Remember, it was the Revolution Church that undid and backslide from
                                > the Covenanted Reformation that was rightly established on the
                                > premise of jus divinum and NOT on Erastian precepts.
                                >
                                > It was the Revolution Church established on precepts that ran
                                > contrary to everything that the faithful church of Scotland erected,
                                > by the very hand of God, during 1638-1649, that they were founded
                                > on. The Settlement essentially swept aside, as if it never
                                > happened, all of the Biblical santification and growth of the Church
                                > that occurred between 1638-1649, thereby overthrowing the wonderous
                                > work of God in His Church and looking to Princes to establish their
                                > own Zion on Earth.
                                >
                                > Exaggeration? By leaving on the books the Acts Recissory, which
                                > called the GA of Scotland of 1638-1649 and the Westminister Assembly
                                > treasonous and rebellious, and not doing anything to undo that
                                > Demonic Act, the Revolution Church was founded not on faithful
                                > doctrine and on a Biblical basis, instead founded on the innovations
                                > of man and made man to establish a new "Presbyterian" church. It
                                > was the very few that refused to follow a multitude to do evil.
                                >
                                > Jus Divinum is not just small potatotes or personal differences.
                                > That would be akin to saying that the manner of worship is something
                                > that is left to the innovations of man (like most American
                                > Presbyterian churches).
                                >
                                > The quarrel here is, who is Sovereign in the Church? King Jesus
                                > alone or Man? The Covenanters from way back in 1580 to the
                                > Revolution always asserted the Divine Right of Presbyterianism as
                                > established by God as the ONLY legit form of Church Government. The
                                > Revolution Settlement, established Presbyterianism because it was
                                > the sentiment of the people and according to the whims of William
                                > and the Parliament.
                                >
                                >
                                > History cannot be ignored just because the conclusion is dispiteful
                                > to many.
                                >
                                > RPCNA minister J.G. Vos documents this and does a host of other
                                > Covenanters and Seceeders (Thomas M'Crie) of the past. These are
                                > not my own inventions.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > For One Truth in Christ,
                                >
                                > Edgar Ibarra
                                > Communicant Member
                                > RPNA (GM)
                                > in Albany NY
                                > but originally
                                > from Aztlan.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H. Lewis"
                                > <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                                > > Amen Matthew.
                                > >
                                > > Kind regards,
                                > >
                                > > Jerrold Lewis
                                > > www.apcvan.com
                                > > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                                > >
                                > > In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I
                                > think it
                                > > is
                                > > a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past
                                > the
                                > > personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                > Settlement and
                                > > have
                                > > seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and
                                > biblical terms
                                > > of
                                > > communion.
                                > >
                                > > Yours sincerely,
                                > > Matthew Winzer
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@v...>
                                > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                                > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > > Walt,
                                > > >
                                > > > I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall position
                                > on the
                                > > > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from joining
                                > the
                                > > > Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions about
                                > the
                                > > > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author specifically
                                > about those
                                > > > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when someone
                                > > > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using that
                                > > > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall)
                                > argument. There
                                > > > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as he
                                > is 1)
                                > > > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing to
                                > talk to
                                > > > folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this forum ought
                                > not to be
                                > > > met with silence. While others may construe this silence
                                > as "no leg to
                                > > > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and resources to
                                > construct
                                > > > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the challenger,
                                > mind you,
                                > > > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences
                                > troubled). And
                                > > > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to be
                                > silent, I
                                > > > want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and
                                > substantial.
                                > > >
                                > > > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW DOWN!
                                > And let's
                                > > > quit it with the spitball replies. These objections brought
                                > up are not
                                > > > new... these things have been dealt with in various writings
                                > defending
                                > > > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many of you
                                > have access
                                > > > to older materials that would be very helpful in this. Make
                                > use of
                                > > > them. .
                                > > >
                                > > > Back to family matters,
                                > > > gmw.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > personalwg@c... wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > >> Gerry,
                                > > >>
                                > > >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is
                                > that
                                > > anyone
                                > > >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted
                                > Reformation
                                > > >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email
                                > privately before
                                > > >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this
                                > forum. The
                                > > >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on
                                > this list to
                                > > >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered
                                > there has
                                > > >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author
                                > directly
                                > > >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in
                                > question.
                                > > >>
                                > > >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                                > > >>
                                > > >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest
                                > anyone who
                                > > >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted
                                > Reformation
                                > > >> Defended contact him directly at:
                                > > >>
                                > > >> Greg Barrow
                                > > >> 780-440-0272 phone
                                > > >> gkbarrow@s...
                                > > >>
                                > > >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my
                                > Elders be
                                > > >> rebuked publically for information that has been published.
                                > Therefore,
                                > > >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that
                                > nothing
                                > > >> further be said on the subject until private discussions take
                                > place
                                > > >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were
                                > misrepresented in
                                > > >> the book and the author of the book himself. I know what
                                > comments on
                                > > >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in
                                > our
                                > > church
                                > > >> to question the truth.
                                > > >>
                                > > >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with
                                > the author
                                > > >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before
                                > they are
                                > > >> misrepresented on this forum.
                                > > >>
                                > > >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                                > > >>
                                > > >> For the cause of Christ,
                                > > >> Walt.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > ---------
                                > > --
                                > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                > >
                                > > a.. Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the web.
                                > >
                                > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > >
                                > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                > of
                                > > Service.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > -------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > ---------
                                > > --
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > SPONSORED LINKS
                                > True religion
                                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=True+religion&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=VSbCXDQ0s_9LcSPzxd34Sg>
                                > Theology
                                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=fyxSTqLiRddGgtQLhzvMYw>
                                > Christian theology
                                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Christian+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=T37fyxaJM8idJvnJGk24Vg>
                                >
                                > Online theology degree
                                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Online+theology+degree&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=7vOpul4KtJjrHeinXyMSWw>
                                > School of theology
                                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=School+of+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=OPciTbAg48k_TXKGxfnUPA>
                                > Systematic theology
                                > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Systematic+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=yzJWNx7nhHCcjllitzMPiA>
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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                                >
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                                >
                              • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                                Dear walt, Thank you brother! And it is spelled Marines, with a capital M ... ;-) Another FYI... we are never ex-Marines, but former Marines. Ex s are for
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 15 5:21 PM
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                                  Dear walt,

                                  Thank you brother! And it is spelled Marines, with a
                                  capital "M"...

                                  ;-)

                                  Another FYI... we are never ex-Marines, but former Marines. Ex's
                                  are for wives and girl-friends...hehehehehehe.

                                  Yeah, Marine bravado, can't find any better...

                                  Looking forward when you are out this way in the future!

                                  Yours in Christ,

                                  Edgar

                                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, personalwg@c...
                                  wrote:
                                  > Edgar, when I read your comments, I think of the following...the
                                  few,
                                  > the proud, the marines. And don't ever think that I for one
                                  minute
                                  > apply the worldly word of "proud" in the context I use if for
                                  you.
                                  > Rather, I love your diligence and defense of the truth dear
                                  brother.
                                  > For true covenanter cause, Walt.
                                  >
                                  > Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > Jerrold,
                                  > >
                                  > > "AMEN Matthew"?
                                  > >
                                  > > >In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I
                                  > > >think it is
                                  > > >a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past
                                  > > >the personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                  > > >Settlement and have seen the light as to what constitutes the
                                  true
                                  > > >church and biblical terms of communion.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Presbyterianism established on Erastian precepts is
                                  unfaithfulness
                                  > > to the Truth of the doctrine of "jus divinum" of divine right.
                                  > > Remember, it was the Revolution Church that undid and backslide
                                  from
                                  > > the Covenanted Reformation that was rightly established on the
                                  > > premise of jus divinum and NOT on Erastian precepts.
                                  > >
                                  > > It was the Revolution Church established on precepts that ran
                                  > > contrary to everything that the faithful church of Scotland
                                  erected,
                                  > > by the very hand of God, during 1638-1649, that they were founded
                                  > > on. The Settlement essentially swept aside, as if it never
                                  > > happened, all of the Biblical santification and growth of the
                                  Church
                                  > > that occurred between 1638-1649, thereby overthrowing the
                                  wonderous
                                  > > work of God in His Church and looking to Princes to establish
                                  their
                                  > > own Zion on Earth.
                                  > >
                                  > > Exaggeration? By leaving on the books the Acts Recissory,
                                  which
                                  > > called the GA of Scotland of 1638-1649 and the Westminister
                                  Assembly
                                  > > treasonous and rebellious, and not doing anything to undo that
                                  > > Demonic Act, the Revolution Church was founded not on faithful
                                  > > doctrine and on a Biblical basis, instead founded on the
                                  innovations
                                  > > of man and made man to establish a new "Presbyterian" church. It
                                  > > was the very few that refused to follow a multitude to do evil.
                                  > >
                                  > > Jus Divinum is not just small potatotes or personal differences.
                                  > > That would be akin to saying that the manner of worship is
                                  something
                                  > > that is left to the innovations of man (like most American
                                  > > Presbyterian churches).
                                  > >
                                  > > The quarrel here is, who is Sovereign in the Church? King Jesus
                                  > > alone or Man? The Covenanters from way back in 1580 to the
                                  > > Revolution always asserted the Divine Right of Presbyterianism as
                                  > > established by God as the ONLY legit form of Church Government.
                                  The
                                  > > Revolution Settlement, established Presbyterianism because it was
                                  > > the sentiment of the people and according to the whims of William
                                  > > and the Parliament.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > History cannot be ignored just because the conclusion is
                                  dispiteful
                                  > > to many.
                                  > >
                                  > > RPCNA minister J.G. Vos documents this and does a host of other
                                  > > Covenanters and Seceeders (Thomas M'Crie) of the past. These are
                                  > > not my own inventions.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > For One Truth in Christ,
                                  > >
                                  > > Edgar Ibarra
                                  > > Communicant Member
                                  > > RPNA (GM)
                                  > > in Albany NY
                                  > > but originally
                                  > > from Aztlan.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H.
                                  Lewis"
                                  > > <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                                  > > > Amen Matthew.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Kind regards,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Jerrold Lewis
                                  > > > www.apcvan.com
                                  > > > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free
                                  Church. I
                                  > > think it
                                  > > > is
                                  > > > a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen
                                  past
                                  > > the
                                  > > > personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                  > > Settlement and
                                  > > > have
                                  > > > seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and
                                  > > biblical terms
                                  > > > of
                                  > > > communion.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yours sincerely,
                                  > > > Matthew Winzer
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@v...>
                                  > > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                  > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                                  > > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > > Walt,
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall
                                  position
                                  > > on the
                                  > > > > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from
                                  joining
                                  > > the
                                  > > > > Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions
                                  about
                                  > > the
                                  > > > > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author
                                  specifically
                                  > > about those
                                  > > > > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when
                                  someone
                                  > > > > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using
                                  that
                                  > > > > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall)
                                  > > argument. There
                                  > > > > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as
                                  he
                                  > > is 1)
                                  > > > > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing
                                  to
                                  > > talk to
                                  > > > > folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this forum
                                  ought
                                  > > not to be
                                  > > > > met with silence. While others may construe this silence
                                  > > as "no leg to
                                  > > > > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and
                                  resources to
                                  > > construct
                                  > > > > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the
                                  challenger,
                                  > > mind you,
                                  > > > > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences
                                  > > troubled). And
                                  > > > > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to
                                  be
                                  > > silent, I
                                  > > > > want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and
                                  > > substantial.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW
                                  DOWN!
                                  > > And let's
                                  > > > > quit it with the spitball replies. These objections
                                  brought
                                  > > up are not
                                  > > > > new... these things have been dealt with in various
                                  writings
                                  > > defending
                                  > > > > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many of
                                  you
                                  > > have access
                                  > > > > to older materials that would be very helpful in this.
                                  Make
                                  > > use of
                                  > > > > them. .
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Back to family matters,
                                  > > > > gmw.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > personalwg@c... wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >> Gerry,
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion
                                  is
                                  > > that
                                  > > > anyone
                                  > > > >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted
                                  > > Reformation
                                  > > > >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email
                                  > > privately before
                                  > > > >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this
                                  > > forum. The
                                  > > > >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on
                                  > > this list to
                                  > > > >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered
                                  > > there has
                                  > > > >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the
                                  author
                                  > > directly
                                  > > > >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in
                                  > > question.
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest
                                  > > anyone who
                                  > > > >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the
                                  Covenanted
                                  > > Reformation
                                  > > > >> Defended contact him directly at:
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >> Greg Barrow
                                  > > > >> 780-440-0272 phone
                                  > > > >> gkbarrow@s...
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my
                                  > > Elders be
                                  > > > >> rebuked publically for information that has been
                                  published.
                                  > > Therefore,
                                  > > > >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that
                                  > > nothing
                                  > > > >> further be said on the subject until private discussions
                                  take
                                  > > place
                                  > > > >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were
                                  > > misrepresented in
                                  > > > >> the book and the author of the book himself. I know what
                                  > > comments on
                                  > > > >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause
                                  members in
                                  > > our
                                  > > > church
                                  > > > >> to question the truth.
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately
                                  with
                                  > > the author
                                  > > > >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements
                                  before
                                  > > they are
                                  > > > >> misrepresented on this forum.
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                                  > > > >>
                                  > > > >> For the cause of Christ,
                                  > > > >> Walt.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                  ----
                                  > > ---------
                                  > > > --
                                  > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > > >
                                  > > > a.. Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the
                                  web.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > >
                                  > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                  Terms
                                  > > of
                                  > > > Service.
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                  ----
                                  > > ---------
                                  > > > --
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                  > > True religion
                                  > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  t=ms&k=True+religion&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theolo
                                  gy&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theo
                                  logy&c=6&s=134&.sig=VSbCXDQ0s_9LcSPzxd34Sg>
                                  > > Theology
                                  > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  t=ms&k=Theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4
                                  =Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&
                                  c=6&s=134&.sig=fyxSTqLiRddGgtQLhzvMYw>
                                  > > Christian theology
                                  > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  t=ms&k=Christian+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+t
                                  heology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic
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                                  > >
                                  > > Online theology degree
                                  > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  t=ms&k=Online+theology+degree&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christi
                                  an+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=System
                                  atic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=7vOpul4KtJjrHeinXyMSWw>
                                  > > School of theology
                                  > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  t=ms&k=School+of+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+t
                                  heology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic
                                  +theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=OPciTbAg48k_TXKGxfnUPA>
                                  > > Systematic theology
                                  > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                  t=ms&k=Systematic+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+
                                  theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systemati
                                  c+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=yzJWNx7nhHCcjllitzMPiA>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                  -------
                                  > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                  > >
                                  > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                  > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                                  on
                                  > > the web.
                                  > >
                                  > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                  unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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                                  > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
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                                • personalwg@chartermi.net
                                  yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your orders! :) hehehehe, it would be so funny if it were not for the cause of truth and my
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 15 5:51 PM
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                                    yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your
                                    orders! :) hehehehe, it would be so funny if it were not for the cause
                                    of truth and my Lord. Sometimes I can feel the noose around my neck
                                    tightening and sometimes look forward to the face-to-face battle with
                                    Antichrist. Probably not as wise as I should be, but this Saturday I'm
                                    back in Washington, then off to Croatia, then to London then home. I've
                                    got my own battles with the beastly system, and am so grateful for your
                                    dedication to this effort Edgar. The faithful Covenanter cause has
                                    never been easy, and I expect over the coming years it will be even more
                                    and more difficult for even the best to stay in the battle.

                                    Defend the brothers and the truth dear friend. I'll be back in Albany
                                    soon. Pastor Price promised me a bed to rest in and another glorious
                                    Lord's Supper to bow my head and my knee before our King. Your brother,
                                    Walt. RPNA

                                    Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:

                                    > Dear walt,
                                    >
                                    > Thank you brother! And it is spelled Marines, with a
                                    > capital "M"...
                                    >
                                    > ;-)
                                    >
                                    > Another FYI... we are never ex-Marines, but former Marines. Ex's
                                    > are for wives and girl-friends...hehehehehehe.
                                    >
                                    > Yeah, Marine bravado, can't find any better...
                                    >
                                    > Looking forward when you are out this way in the future!
                                    >
                                    > Yours in Christ,
                                    >
                                    > Edgar
                                    >
                                    > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, personalwg@c...
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > Edgar, when I read your comments, I think of the following...the
                                    > few,
                                    > > the proud, the marines. And don't ever think that I for one
                                    > minute
                                    > > apply the worldly word of "proud" in the context I use if for
                                    > you.
                                    > > Rather, I love your diligence and defense of the truth dear
                                    > brother.
                                    > > For true covenanter cause, Walt.
                                    > >
                                    > > Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > > Jerrold,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > "AMEN Matthew"?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free Church. I
                                    > > > >think it is
                                    > > > >a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen past
                                    > > > >the personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                    > > > >Settlement and have seen the light as to what constitutes the
                                    > true
                                    > > > >church and biblical terms of communion.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Presbyterianism established on Erastian precepts is
                                    > unfaithfulness
                                    > > > to the Truth of the doctrine of "jus divinum" of divine right.
                                    > > > Remember, it was the Revolution Church that undid and backslide
                                    > from
                                    > > > the Covenanted Reformation that was rightly established on the
                                    > > > premise of jus divinum and NOT on Erastian precepts.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > It was the Revolution Church established on precepts that ran
                                    > > > contrary to everything that the faithful church of Scotland
                                    > erected,
                                    > > > by the very hand of God, during 1638-1649, that they were founded
                                    > > > on. The Settlement essentially swept aside, as if it never
                                    > > > happened, all of the Biblical santification and growth of the
                                    > Church
                                    > > > that occurred between 1638-1649, thereby overthrowing the
                                    > wonderous
                                    > > > work of God in His Church and looking to Princes to establish
                                    > their
                                    > > > own Zion on Earth.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Exaggeration? By leaving on the books the Acts Recissory,
                                    > which
                                    > > > called the GA of Scotland of 1638-1649 and the Westminister
                                    > Assembly
                                    > > > treasonous and rebellious, and not doing anything to undo that
                                    > > > Demonic Act, the Revolution Church was founded not on faithful
                                    > > > doctrine and on a Biblical basis, instead founded on the
                                    > innovations
                                    > > > of man and made man to establish a new "Presbyterian" church. It
                                    > > > was the very few that refused to follow a multitude to do evil.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Jus Divinum is not just small potatotes or personal differences.
                                    > > > That would be akin to saying that the manner of worship is
                                    > something
                                    > > > that is left to the innovations of man (like most American
                                    > > > Presbyterian churches).
                                    > > >
                                    > > > The quarrel here is, who is Sovereign in the Church? King Jesus
                                    > > > alone or Man? The Covenanters from way back in 1580 to the
                                    > > > Revolution always asserted the Divine Right of Presbyterianism as
                                    > > > established by God as the ONLY legit form of Church Government.
                                    > The
                                    > > > Revolution Settlement, established Presbyterianism because it was
                                    > > > the sentiment of the people and according to the whims of William
                                    > > > and the Parliament.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > History cannot be ignored just because the conclusion is
                                    > dispiteful
                                    > > > to many.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > RPCNA minister J.G. Vos documents this and does a host of other
                                    > > > Covenanters and Seceeders (Thomas M'Crie) of the past. These are
                                    > > > not my own inventions.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > For One Truth in Christ,
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Edgar Ibarra
                                    > > > Communicant Member
                                    > > > RPNA (GM)
                                    > > > in Albany NY
                                    > > > but originally
                                    > > > from Aztlan.
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H.
                                    > Lewis"
                                    > > > <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                                    > > > > Amen Matthew.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Kind regards,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Jerrold Lewis
                                    > > > > www.apcvan.com
                                    > > > > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free
                                    > Church. I
                                    > > > think it
                                    > > > > is
                                    > > > > a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen
                                    > past
                                    > > > the
                                    > > > > personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                    > > > Settlement and
                                    > > > > have
                                    > > > > seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and
                                    > > > biblical terms
                                    > > > > of
                                    > > > > communion.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Yours sincerely,
                                    > > > > Matthew Winzer
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > > > From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@v...>
                                    > > > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                    > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                                    > > > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > > Walt,
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall
                                    > position
                                    > > > on the
                                    > > > > > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from
                                    > joining
                                    > > > the
                                    > > > > > Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions
                                    > about
                                    > > > the
                                    > > > > > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author
                                    > specifically
                                    > > > about those
                                    > > > > > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when
                                    > someone
                                    > > > > > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then using
                                    > that
                                    > > > > > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall)
                                    > > > argument. There
                                    > > > > > is a really easy way to clear up what the author meant, as
                                    > he
                                    > > > is 1)
                                    > > > > > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always willing
                                    > to
                                    > > > talk to
                                    > > > > > folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this forum
                                    > ought
                                    > > > not to be
                                    > > > > > met with silence. While others may construe this silence
                                    > > > as "no leg to
                                    > > > > > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and
                                    > resources to
                                    > > > construct
                                    > > > > > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the
                                    > challenger,
                                    > > > mind you,
                                    > > > > > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences
                                    > > > troubled). And
                                    > > > > > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter to
                                    > be
                                    > > > silent, I
                                    > > > > > want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and
                                    > > > substantial.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW
                                    > DOWN!
                                    > > > And let's
                                    > > > > > quit it with the spitball replies. These objections
                                    > brought
                                    > > > up are not
                                    > > > > > new... these things have been dealt with in various
                                    > writings
                                    > > > defending
                                    > > > > > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many of
                                    > you
                                    > > > have access
                                    > > > > > to older materials that would be very helpful in this.
                                    > Make
                                    > > > use of
                                    > > > > > them. .
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Back to family matters,
                                    > > > > > gmw.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > personalwg@c... wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >> Gerry,
                                    > > > > >>
                                    > > > > >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion
                                    > is
                                    > > > that
                                    > > > > anyone
                                    > > > > >> who has problems with a public document like Covenanted
                                    > > > Reformation
                                    > > > > >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email
                                    > > > privately before
                                    > > > > >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this
                                    > > > forum. The
                                    > > > > >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on
                                    > > > this list to
                                    > > > > >> assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered
                                    > > > there has
                                    > > > > >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the
                                    > author
                                    > > > directly
                                    > > > > >> and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in
                                    > > > question.
                                    > > > > >>
                                    > > > > >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                                    > > > > >>
                                    > > > > >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest
                                    > > > anyone who
                                    > > > > >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the
                                    > Covenanted
                                    > > > Reformation
                                    > > > > >> Defended contact him directly at:
                                    > > > > >>
                                    > > > > >> Greg Barrow
                                    > > > > >> 780-440-0272 phone
                                    > > > > >> gkbarrow@s...
                                    > > > > >>
                                    > > > > >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my
                                    > > > Elders be
                                    > > > > >> rebuked publically for information that has been
                                    > published.
                                    > > > Therefore,
                                    > > > > >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that
                                    > > > nothing
                                    > > > > >> further be said on the subject until private discussions
                                    > take
                                    > > > place
                                    > > > > >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were
                                    > > > misrepresented in
                                    > > > > >> the book and the author of the book himself. I know what
                                    > > > comments on
                                    > > > > >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause
                                    > members in
                                    > > > our
                                    > > > > church
                                    > > > > >> to question the truth.
                                    > > > > >>
                                    > > > > >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately
                                    > with
                                    > > > the author
                                    > > > > >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements
                                    > before
                                    > > > they are
                                    > > > > >> misrepresented on this forum.
                                    > > > > >>
                                    > > > > >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                                    > > > > >>
                                    > > > > >> For the cause of Christ,
                                    > > > > >> Walt.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > ----
                                    > > > ---------
                                    > > > > --
                                    > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > a.. Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the
                                    > web.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                    > Terms
                                    > > > of
                                    > > > > Service.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > ----
                                    > > > ---------
                                    > > > > --
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                    > > > True religion
                                    > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    > t=ms&k=True+religion&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theolo
                                    > gy&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theo
                                    > logy&c=6&s=134&.sig=VSbCXDQ0s_9LcSPzxd34Sg>
                                    > > > Theology
                                    > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    > t=ms&k=Theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4
                                    > =Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&
                                    > c=6&s=134&.sig=fyxSTqLiRddGgtQLhzvMYw>
                                    > > > Christian theology
                                    > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    > t=ms&k=Christian+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+t
                                    > heology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic
                                    > +theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=T37fyxaJM8idJvnJGk24Vg>
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Online theology degree
                                    > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    > t=ms&k=Online+theology+degree&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christi
                                    > an+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=System
                                    > atic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=7vOpul4KtJjrHeinXyMSWw>
                                    > > > School of theology
                                    > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    > t=ms&k=School+of+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+t
                                    > heology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic
                                    > +theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=OPciTbAg48k_TXKGxfnUPA>
                                    > > > Systematic theology
                                    > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                    > t=ms&k=Systematic+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+
                                    > theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systemati
                                    > c+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=yzJWNx7nhHCcjllitzMPiA>
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > -------
                                    > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                    > > >
                                    > > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                    > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                                    > on
                                    > > > the web.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                  • gmw
                                    Oh, you no you didn t just call him sir! :-) gmw.
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 15 6:23 PM
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                                      Oh, you no you didn't just call him sir! :-)

                                      gmw.

                                      personalwg@... wrote:

                                      > yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your
                                      > orders! :)
                                    • Matthew Winzer
                                      ... Yes I do. The Free Churchmen exhausted every avenue of redress; and only separated as a last resort. ... See an earlier post to Walt where I provided 4
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Aug 15 7:10 PM
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                                        >>>> Do you approve of this separation from the established Church of
                                        > Scotland?<<<

                                        Yes I do. The Free Churchmen exhausted every avenue of redress; and only
                                        separated as a last resort.

                                        >>>> What guidelines are you talking about? And do you mean that
                                        > evidences were never provided, or that they were not provided to you
                                        > in this meagre forum?<<<

                                        See an earlier post to Walt where I provided 4 basic situations in which
                                        separation was permissible. No such evidence is forthcoming in the
                                        literature that supports the separatists' cause (e.g., Plain Reasons by
                                        Clarkson, unless one follows his Independent sources); and there has
                                        definitely not been any on this forum, though plenty of opportunity has been
                                        afforded.

                                        > I'm confused now, as I thought your statements were regarding the
                                        > Disruption, where folks broke away from the established Revolution
                                        > Church, on at least some of the same principles that the RP's
                                        > dissented from it.

                                        The FCofS claimed to be the continuing CofS, that is, the consistent
                                        maintainer of its principles. If that is borne in mind it will avoid
                                        confusion.

                                        Yours sincerely,
                                        Matthew Winzer
                                      • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                                        My brother Walt, ... Sir? I was a SGT and not an officer, i.e. I worked for a living... ;-) I luv it... On the serious note, you will be in our prayers as you
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Aug 15 7:19 PM
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                                          My brother Walt,

                                          > yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your
                                          > orders! :) hehehehe,

                                          Sir? I was a SGT and not an officer, i.e. I worked for a living...


                                          ;-) I luv it...

                                          On the serious note, you will be in our prayers as you once again
                                          trot the world. BTW congrats on becoming a communicant member! It
                                          must have been wonderous having so many come to the common table to
                                          partake of the Lord's Supper in Canada a few weeks ago! What was it
                                          again, 50 something? Anyways, take care on your travels.

                                          Yours in Christ,
                                          Edgar

                                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, personalwg@c...
                                          wrote:
                                          > yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your
                                          > orders! :) hehehehe, it would be so funny if it were not for the
                                          cause
                                          > of truth and my Lord. Sometimes I can feel the noose around my
                                          neck
                                          > tightening and sometimes look forward to the face-to-face battle
                                          with
                                          > Antichrist. Probably not as wise as I should be, but this
                                          Saturday I'm
                                          > back in Washington, then off to Croatia, then to London then
                                          home. I've
                                          > got my own battles with the beastly system, and am so grateful for
                                          your
                                          > dedication to this effort Edgar. The faithful Covenanter cause
                                          has
                                          > never been easy, and I expect over the coming years it will be
                                          even more
                                          > and more difficult for even the best to stay in the battle.
                                          >
                                          > Defend the brothers and the truth dear friend. I'll be back in
                                          Albany
                                          > soon. Pastor Price promised me a bed to rest in and another
                                          glorious
                                          > Lord's Supper to bow my head and my knee before our King. Your
                                          brother,
                                          > Walt. RPNA
                                          >
                                          > Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Dear walt,
                                          > >
                                          > > Thank you brother! And it is spelled Marines, with a
                                          > > capital "M"...
                                          > >
                                          > > ;-)
                                          > >
                                          > > Another FYI... we are never ex-Marines, but former Marines. Ex's
                                          > > are for wives and girl-friends...hehehehehehe.
                                          > >
                                          > > Yeah, Marine bravado, can't find any better...
                                          > >
                                          > > Looking forward when you are out this way in the future!
                                          > >
                                          > > Yours in Christ,
                                          > >
                                          > > Edgar
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, personalwg@c...
                                          > > wrote:
                                          > > > Edgar, when I read your comments, I think of the
                                          following...the
                                          > > few,
                                          > > > the proud, the marines. And don't ever think that I for one
                                          > > minute
                                          > > > apply the worldly word of "proud" in the context I use if for
                                          > > you.
                                          > > > Rather, I love your diligence and defense of the truth dear
                                          > > brother.
                                          > > > For true covenanter cause, Walt.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > > Jerrold,
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > "AMEN Matthew"?
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > >In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free
                                          Church. I
                                          > > > > >think it is
                                          > > > > >a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have seen
                                          past
                                          > > > > >the personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                          > > > > >Settlement and have seen the light as to what constitutes
                                          the
                                          > > true
                                          > > > > >church and biblical terms of communion.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Presbyterianism established on Erastian precepts is
                                          > > unfaithfulness
                                          > > > > to the Truth of the doctrine of "jus divinum" of divine
                                          right.
                                          > > > > Remember, it was the Revolution Church that undid and
                                          backslide
                                          > > from
                                          > > > > the Covenanted Reformation that was rightly established on
                                          the
                                          > > > > premise of jus divinum and NOT on Erastian precepts.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > It was the Revolution Church established on precepts that
                                          ran
                                          > > > > contrary to everything that the faithful church of Scotland
                                          > > erected,
                                          > > > > by the very hand of God, during 1638-1649, that they were
                                          founded
                                          > > > > on. The Settlement essentially swept aside, as if it never
                                          > > > > happened, all of the Biblical santification and growth of the
                                          > > Church
                                          > > > > that occurred between 1638-1649, thereby overthrowing the
                                          > > wonderous
                                          > > > > work of God in His Church and looking to Princes to establish
                                          > > their
                                          > > > > own Zion on Earth.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Exaggeration? By leaving on the books the Acts Recissory,
                                          > > which
                                          > > > > called the GA of Scotland of 1638-1649 and the Westminister
                                          > > Assembly
                                          > > > > treasonous and rebellious, and not doing anything to undo
                                          that
                                          > > > > Demonic Act, the Revolution Church was founded not on
                                          faithful
                                          > > > > doctrine and on a Biblical basis, instead founded on the
                                          > > innovations
                                          > > > > of man and made man to establish a new "Presbyterian"
                                          church. It
                                          > > > > was the very few that refused to follow a multitude to do
                                          evil.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Jus Divinum is not just small potatotes or personal
                                          differences.
                                          > > > > That would be akin to saying that the manner of worship is
                                          > > something
                                          > > > > that is left to the innovations of man (like most American
                                          > > > > Presbyterian churches).
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > The quarrel here is, who is Sovereign in the Church? King
                                          Jesus
                                          > > > > alone or Man? The Covenanters from way back in 1580 to the
                                          > > > > Revolution always asserted the Divine Right of
                                          Presbyterianism as
                                          > > > > established by God as the ONLY legit form of Church
                                          Government.
                                          > > The
                                          > > > > Revolution Settlement, established Presbyterianism because
                                          it was
                                          > > > > the sentiment of the people and according to the whims of
                                          William
                                          > > > > and the Parliament.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > History cannot be ignored just because the conclusion is
                                          > > dispiteful
                                          > > > > to many.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > RPCNA minister J.G. Vos documents this and does a host of
                                          other
                                          > > > > Covenanters and Seceeders (Thomas M'Crie) of the past.
                                          These are
                                          > > > > not my own inventions.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > For One Truth in Christ,
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Edgar Ibarra
                                          > > > > Communicant Member
                                          > > > > RPNA (GM)
                                          > > > > in Albany NY
                                          > > > > but originally
                                          > > > > from Aztlan.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H.
                                          > > Lewis"
                                          > > > > <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                                          > > > > > Amen Matthew.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Kind regards,
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Jerrold Lewis
                                          > > > > > www.apcvan.com
                                          > > > > > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > In Scotland the best of the RPs joined with the Free
                                          > > Church. I
                                          > > > > think it
                                          > > > > > is
                                          > > > > > a case that as history has rolled on the best RPs have
                                          seen
                                          > > past
                                          > > > > the
                                          > > > > > personal differences of various camps at the Revolution
                                          > > > > Settlement and
                                          > > > > > have
                                          > > > > > seen the light as to what constitutes the true church and
                                          > > > > biblical terms
                                          > > > > > of
                                          > > > > > communion.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Yours sincerely,
                                          > > > > > Matthew Winzer
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > > > > From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@v...>
                                          > > > > > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                          > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 16, 2005 12:22 AM
                                          > > > > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Walt,
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > I agree with you on several counts. 1. Your overall
                                          > > position
                                          > > > > on the
                                          > > > > > > Covenants, and on the society people's refraining from
                                          > > joining
                                          > > > > the
                                          > > > > > > Revolution Church. 2. That folks that have questions
                                          > > about
                                          > > > > the
                                          > > > > > > Covenanted Reformation Defended talk the author
                                          > > specifically
                                          > > > > about those
                                          > > > > > > questions -- this came up I think over a month ago when
                                          > > someone
                                          > > > > > > attempted to tell us what the author meant, and then
                                          using
                                          > > that
                                          > > > > > > explanation to build a (somewhat mocking, if I recall)
                                          > > > > argument. There
                                          > > > > > > is a really easy way to clear up what the author
                                          meant, as
                                          > > he
                                          > > > > is 1)
                                          > > > > > > still alive, and 2) from what I understand always
                                          willing
                                          > > to
                                          > > > > talk to
                                          > > > > > > folks. 3. That the challenges brought up in this
                                          forum
                                          > > ought
                                          > > > > not to be
                                          > > > > > > met with silence. While others may construe this
                                          silence
                                          > > > > as "no leg to
                                          > > > > > > stand on," some of us lament the lack of time and
                                          > > resources to
                                          > > > > construct
                                          > > > > > > a worthwile reply (not necessarily to satisfy the
                                          > > challenger,
                                          > > > > mind you,
                                          > > > > > > but to satisfy those who have had their consciences
                                          > > > > troubled). And
                                          > > > > > > therefore, 4. I don't want you or any other Covenanter
                                          to
                                          > > be
                                          > > > > silent, I
                                          > > > > > > want you to be LOUD. But not simply loud, but loud and
                                          > > > > substantial.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > COVENANTERS, if we are going to throw down, THEN THROW
                                          > > DOWN!
                                          > > > > And let's
                                          > > > > > > quit it with the spitball replies. These objections
                                          > > brought
                                          > > > > up are not
                                          > > > > > > new... these things have been dealt with in various
                                          > > writings
                                          > > > > defending
                                          > > > > > > the decesion to not join the Revolution Church. Many
                                          of
                                          > > you
                                          > > > > have access
                                          > > > > > > to older materials that would be very helpful in this.
                                          > > Make
                                          > > > > use of
                                          > > > > > > them. .
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Back to family matters,
                                          > > > > > > gmw.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > personalwg@c... wrote:
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >> Gerry,
                                          > > > > > >>
                                          > > > > > >> I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My
                                          suggestion
                                          > > is
                                          > > > > that
                                          > > > > > anyone
                                          > > > > > >> who has problems with a public document like
                                          Covenanted
                                          > > > > Reformation
                                          > > > > > >> Defended should contact the author by phone or email
                                          > > > > privately before
                                          > > > > > >> making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on
                                          this
                                          > > > > forum. The
                                          > > > > > >> comments made on this forum have caused weaker
                                          brethren on
                                          > > > > this list to
                                          > > > > > >> assume that the statements are true, and I have
                                          discovered
                                          > > > > there has
                                          > > > > > >> been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the
                                          > > author
                                          > > > > directly
                                          > > > > > >> and privately to explain their concerns on the
                                          subject in
                                          > > > > question.
                                          > > > > > >>
                                          > > > > > >> My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                                          > > > > > >>
                                          > > > > > >> Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I
                                          suggest
                                          > > > > anyone who
                                          > > > > > >> has a problem with the authors commentary in the
                                          > > Covenanted
                                          > > > > Reformation
                                          > > > > > >> Defended contact him directly at:
                                          > > > > > >>
                                          > > > > > >> Greg Barrow
                                          > > > > > >> 780-440-0272 phone
                                          > > > > > >> gkbarrow@s...
                                          > > > > > >>
                                          > > > > > >> I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen
                                          to my
                                          > > > > Elders be
                                          > > > > > >> rebuked publically for information that has been
                                          > > published.
                                          > > > > Therefore,
                                          > > > > > >> so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest
                                          that
                                          > > > > nothing
                                          > > > > > >> further be said on the subject until private
                                          discussions
                                          > > take
                                          > > > > place
                                          > > > > > >> between those parties who suggests the reformers were
                                          > > > > misrepresented in
                                          > > > > > >> the book and the author of the book himself. I know
                                          what
                                          > > > > comments on
                                          > > > > > >> this site have done to confuse the issue and cause
                                          > > members in
                                          > > > > our
                                          > > > > > church
                                          > > > > > >> to question the truth.
                                          > > > > > >>
                                          > > > > > >> Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately
                                          > > with
                                          > > > > the author
                                          > > > > > >> and seek to patiently work through these disagreements
                                          > > before
                                          > > > > they are
                                          > > > > > >> misrepresented on this forum.
                                          > > > > > >>
                                          > > > > > >> Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                                          > > > > > >>
                                          > > > > > >> For the cause of Christ,
                                          > > > > > >> Walt.
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
                                          ----
                                          > > ----
                                          > > > > ---------
                                          > > > > > --
                                          > > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > a.. Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on
                                          the
                                          > > web.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > > > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                          > > Terms
                                          > > > > of
                                          > > > > > Service.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > -----------------------------------------------------------
                                          ----
                                          > > ----
                                          > > > > ---------
                                          > > > > > --
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > SPONSORED LINKS
                                          > > > > True religion
                                          > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                          > >
                                          t=ms&k=True+religion&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theolo
                                          > >
                                          gy&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theo
                                          > > logy&c=6&s=134&.sig=VSbCXDQ0s_9LcSPzxd34Sg>
                                          > > > > Theology
                                          > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                          > >
                                          t=ms&k=Theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4
                                          > >
                                          =Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&
                                          > > c=6&s=134&.sig=fyxSTqLiRddGgtQLhzvMYw>
                                          > > > > Christian theology
                                          > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                          > >
                                          t=ms&k=Christian+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+t
                                          > >
                                          heology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic
                                          > > +theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=T37fyxaJM8idJvnJGk24Vg>
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Online theology degree
                                          > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                          > >
                                          t=ms&k=Online+theology+degree&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christi
                                          > >
                                          an+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=System
                                          > > atic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=7vOpul4KtJjrHeinXyMSWw>
                                          > > > > School of theology
                                          > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                          > >
                                          t=ms&k=School+of+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+t
                                          > >
                                          heology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic
                                          > > +theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=OPciTbAg48k_TXKGxfnUPA>
                                          > > > > Systematic theology
                                          > > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?
                                          > >
                                          t=ms&k=Systematic+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+
                                          > >
                                          theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systemati
                                          > > c+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=yzJWNx7nhHCcjllitzMPiA>
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
                                          ----
                                          > > -------
                                          > > > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                          > > > >
                                          <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                                          > > on
                                          > > > > the web.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                          > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                          Terms
                                          > > of
                                          > > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > -------------------------------------------------------------
                                          ----
                                          > > -------
                                          > > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          -------
                                          > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                          > >
                                          > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                          > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                                          on
                                          > > the web.
                                          > >
                                          > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                          > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                          unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                          > >
                                          > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                          of
                                          > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                          -------
                                          > >
                                        • Willena
                                          There were 43 communicants participating that day, Edgar, and it truly was wonderful! Not only did we have live preaching for the first time in many months,
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Aug 16 12:09 AM
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                                            There were 43 communicants participating that day, Edgar, and it truly
                                            was wonderful! Not only did we have live preaching for the first time in
                                            many months, but we had four baptisms and the Lord's Supper too. It was
                                            as many have already expressed... a foretaste of heaven.

                                            And may I say here, it was a privilege to meet you for the first time,
                                            Walter! You and a number of others I had known only through their posts
                                            on email lists.

                                            Willena, RPNA in Edmonton

                                            Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:

                                            > My brother Walt,
                                            >
                                            > > yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your
                                            > > orders! :) hehehehe,
                                            >
                                            > Sir? I was a SGT and not an officer, i.e. I worked for a living...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > ;-) I luv it...
                                            >
                                            > On the serious note, you will be in our prayers as you once again
                                            > trot the world. BTW congrats on becoming a communicant member! It
                                            > must have been wonderous having so many come to the common table to
                                            > partake of the Lord's Supper in Canada a few weeks ago! What was it
                                            > again, 50 something? Anyways, take care on your travels.
                                            >
                                            > Yours in Christ,
                                            > Edgar
                                          • personalwg@chartermi.net
                                            May the Lord bless you Willena!
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Aug 16 7:27 AM
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                                              May the Lord bless you Willena!

                                              Willena wrote:

                                              > There were 43 communicants participating that day, Edgar, and it truly
                                              > was wonderful! Not only did we have live preaching for the first time in
                                              > many months, but we had four baptisms and the Lord's Supper too. It was
                                              > as many have already expressed... a foretaste of heaven.
                                              >
                                              > And may I say here, it was a privilege to meet you for the first time,
                                              > Walter! You and a number of others I had known only through their posts
                                              > on email lists.
                                              >
                                              > Willena, RPNA in Edmonton
                                              >
                                              > Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. wrote:
                                              >
                                              > > My brother Walt,
                                              > >
                                              > > > yes, Sir....understood, Sir! :) ready for the battle Sir on your
                                              > > > orders! :) hehehehe,
                                              > >
                                              > > Sir? I was a SGT and not an officer, i.e. I worked for a living...
                                              > >
                                              > >
                                              > > ;-) I luv it...
                                              > >
                                              > > On the serious note, you will be in our prayers as you once again
                                              > > trot the world. BTW congrats on becoming a communicant member! It
                                              > > must have been wonderous having so many come to the common table to
                                              > > partake of the Lord's Supper in Canada a few weeks ago! What was it
                                              > > again, 50 something? Anyways, take care on your travels.
                                              > >
                                              > > Yours in Christ,
                                              > > Edgar
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > SPONSORED LINKS
                                              > True religion
                                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=True+religion&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=VSbCXDQ0s_9LcSPzxd34Sg>
                                              > Theology
                                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=fyxSTqLiRddGgtQLhzvMYw>
                                              > Christian theology
                                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Christian+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=T37fyxaJM8idJvnJGk24Vg>
                                              >
                                              > Online theology degree
                                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Online+theology+degree&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=7vOpul4KtJjrHeinXyMSWw>
                                              > School of theology
                                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=School+of+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=OPciTbAg48k_TXKGxfnUPA>
                                              > Systematic theology
                                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/gads?t=ms&k=Systematic+theology&w1=True+religion&w2=Theology&w3=Christian+theology&w4=Online+theology+degree&w5=School+of+theology&w6=Systematic+theology&c=6&s=134&.sig=yzJWNx7nhHCcjllitzMPiA>
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                              >
                                              > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                              > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>" on
                                              > the web.
                                              >
                                              > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                              >
                                              > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                              > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                              >
                                            • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                                              ... These words are saddening. I would encourage my weaker brothers not to lose heart at the statements made in favor of the Revolution Church and such, as
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Aug 16 9:01 PM
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                                                Walt wrote:

                                                >The comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                                >list to assume that the statements are true...

                                                These words are saddening. I would encourage my weaker brothers not
                                                to lose heart at the statements made in favor of the Revolution
                                                Church and such, as they have no historical nor sound doctrinal
                                                support. I have been told that I have yet to supply evidence, but I
                                                have echoed dozens of minister's words of the past, those of RPCNA
                                                and the RPNA (when formed after the RPCNA abandoned her faithful
                                                testimony). However supporters have yet to supply their sources of
                                                history that back up their statements and I have yet to find it
                                                echoed any where in history, except by Independants who praised
                                                the "Glorious" (as they call it) Revolution. I even quoted the Free
                                                Church's position on the Revolution Church, which the Free
                                                Presbyterian Church of Scotland echoed in agreement with, in which
                                                they even said the Revolution Settlement was not satisfactory, and
                                                that it failed to recognize the WORK OF THE LORD in His Church and
                                                that the Revolution Settlement undid the entire Second Reformation
                                                by leaving the Acts Recissory on the table as law. Both the Free
                                                and the FPCoS even allude that the Revolution Church is distinct to
                                                the Covenanted Church of Scotland of 1638-1649 in that statement.

                                                I encourage those shaken by mis-informed statements of history
                                                and undefensible claims against the Covenanted Reformation to study,
                                                as commanded by the Apostle Peter, to firm up their faith and
                                                strengthen it. This is not only a good suggestion, but commanded of
                                                God in His Word. These past weeks of intense historical study into
                                                these periods have only served to strengthen what I already held as
                                                true and to further establish the fact that indeed the Revolution
                                                Church is a schismatic and Erastian born church and that all the
                                                Presbyterian bodies descending from her perpetuate this schism, all
                                                the while giving lip service to our Covenanted fore-fathers, in
                                                which one of them said that all who rail and publish against the
                                                Covenants ought to be looked upon as enemies to it and dealt with
                                                accordingly. That was the often lauded (by Neo-Presbyterians, and
                                                rightly so) Rev. George Gillespie in chapter 14 of "A Treatise of
                                                Miscellany Questions", vol 2 of his works and actually quoted on the
                                                banner of this forum's home page.

                                                Gillespie surely would have seen the Revolution settlement as a
                                                betrayal and to be opposed furiously.

                                                My Covenanter brethren, shore upon your faith by studying, do not
                                                take my words for it nor the words of those that speak contrary to
                                                the Truth. YOU MUST STUDY FOR YOURSELF THESE MATTERS, do not be
                                                LAZY and allow others to think for you.

                                                TOLLE LEGE!

                                                Ignorance is the foundation of slavery. "When ignorance reigns life
                                                is lost".


                                                Soft words do not always carry truth.



                                                For the interest of my Covenanted brethren,

                                                Edgar Ibarra
                                                of Nican Tlaca
                                                of Cemanahuac
                                                of Mexica blood
                                                of the Anahuac Nation




                                                -- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, personalwg@c...
                                                wrote:
                                                > Gerry,
                                                >
                                                > I agree with your position wholeheartedly. My suggestion is that
                                                anyone
                                                > who has problems with a public document like Covenanted
                                                Reformation
                                                > Defended should contact the author by phone or email privately
                                                before
                                                > making unsubstantiated and inaccurate statements on this forum.
                                                The
                                                > comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                                list to
                                                > assume that the statements are true, and I have discovered there
                                                has
                                                > been no attempt by anyone on this forum to contact the author
                                                directly
                                                > and privately to explain their concerns on the subject in question.
                                                >
                                                > My opinion is this is our duty as faithful Christians.
                                                >
                                                > Therefore, before a fight breaks out publically, I suggest anyone
                                                who
                                                > has a problem with the authors commentary in the Covenanted
                                                Reformation
                                                > Defended contact him directly at:
                                                >
                                                > Greg Barrow
                                                > 780-440-0272 phone
                                                > gkbarrow@s...
                                                >
                                                > I'm not going to be a good one to sit by and listen to my Elders
                                                be
                                                > rebuked publically for information that has been published.
                                                Therefore,
                                                > so that I do not take this cause up further I suggest that nothing
                                                > further be said on the subject until private discussions take
                                                place
                                                > between those parties who suggests the reformers were
                                                misrepresented in
                                                > the book and the author of the book himself. I know what comments
                                                on
                                                > this site have done to confuse the issue and cause members in our
                                                church
                                                > to question the truth.
                                                >
                                                > Anyone who has questions should discuss them privately with the
                                                author
                                                > and seek to patiently work through these disagreements before they
                                                are
                                                > misrepresented on this forum.
                                                >
                                                > Thank you for the opportunity to be on the list Gerry.
                                                >
                                                > For the cause of Christ,
                                                > Walt.
                                                >
                                                > gmw wrote:
                                                >
                                                > > If we are going to post things to the group, let's post things
                                                that
                                                > > have some substance, that are for edification, and that are
                                                helpful to
                                                > > others.
                                                > >
                                                > > The less this group is like a fight club, the happier I'd be.
                                                > >
                                                > > gmw.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                                -------
                                                > > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                                > >
                                                > > * Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub
                                                > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub>"
                                                on
                                                > > the web.
                                                > >
                                                > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                                unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                                > >
                                                > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                                of
                                                > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                                > >
                                                > >
                                                > > -----------------------------------------------------------------
                                                -------
                                                > >
                                              • gmw
                                                ... Yes they are. And I feel somewhat responsible for allowing this to happen in a forum designed for those who agree with Covenanter principles, not for any
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Aug 17 1:50 PM
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                                                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                                                  Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                                                  > Walt wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > >The comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                                  > >list to assume that the statements are true...
                                                  >
                                                  > These words are saddening.

                                                  Yes they are. And I feel somewhat responsible for allowing this to
                                                  happen in a forum designed for those who agree with Covenanter
                                                  principles, not for any Yahoo! to pipe off against Covenanter
                                                  principles (that kind of stuff goes on in plenty of other forums). I
                                                  struggle with whether or not to allow some conversations to continue.
                                                  On one hand, I think it's good to be challenged, and I think that if
                                                  our principles are sound, they can withstand a challenge. One the
                                                  other hand, there is no guarantee that all challenges presented will
                                                  be sufficiently answered (whether that be do to lack of time,
                                                  resources, skills in logic, writing, or whatever), and that may cause
                                                  some to stumble or to otherwise be troubled.

                                                  I currently have in the "pending" area several posts which I may or
                                                  may not allow to go through. From stuff defending the Independents
                                                  (something very odd and wrong for Presbyterians to be doing), to more
                                                  stuff saying that it's always wrong to separate from an essentially
                                                  true Church (posted by someone who has publically stated his approval
                                                  of at least one separation -- whether this is pure hypocracy, a case
                                                  of special pleading, or just an unexplained anomaly, I cannot tell).

                                                  I'll have to spend some time thinking about what is best to do.

                                                  Forgive me if I've allowed this forum to be something bad, when I
                                                  intended it to be only something good.

                                                  gmw.
                                                • Jerrold H. Lewis
                                                  Dear brother, Just to be sure I do not defend the Church Polity of the Independent divines. I hope my point is clear that it is the nature of the SL&C that I
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Aug 17 2:32 PM
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    Dear brother,

                                                    Just to be sure I do not defend the Church Polity of the Independent
                                                    divines. I hope my point is clear that it is the nature of the SL&C that I
                                                    am defending not the men who dissented. I'm simply using them as an example
                                                    of my point.

                                                    Kind regards,

                                                    Jerrold

                                                    zxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcv
                                                    Rev. Jerrold H. Lewis
                                                    Associated Presbyterian Church
                                                    Vancouver BC, Canada V3A 1P2
                                                    604.530.4123
                                                    jerlewis@...
                                                    http:/www.apcvan.com
                                                    http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                                                    zxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcv



                                                    -----Original Message-----
                                                    From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                    [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of gmw
                                                    Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:51 PM
                                                    To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                    Subject: [BGSpam]Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


                                                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                                                    Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                                                    > Walt wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > >The comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                                    > >list to assume that the statements are true...
                                                    >
                                                    > These words are saddening.

                                                    Yes they are. And I feel somewhat responsible for allowing this to
                                                    happen in a forum designed for those who agree with Covenanter
                                                    principles, not for any Yahoo! to pipe off against Covenanter
                                                    principles (that kind of stuff goes on in plenty of other forums). I
                                                    struggle with whether or not to allow some conversations to continue.
                                                    On one hand, I think it's good to be challenged, and I think that if
                                                    our principles are sound, they can withstand a challenge. One the
                                                    other hand, there is no guarantee that all challenges presented will
                                                    be sufficiently answered (whether that be do to lack of time,
                                                    resources, skills in logic, writing, or whatever), and that may cause
                                                    some to stumble or to otherwise be troubled.

                                                    I currently have in the "pending" area several posts which I may or
                                                    may not allow to go through. From stuff defending the Independents
                                                    (something very odd and wrong for Presbyterians to be doing), to more
                                                    stuff saying that it's always wrong to separate from an essentially
                                                    true Church (posted by someone who has publically stated his approval
                                                    of at least one separation -- whether this is pure hypocracy, a case
                                                    of special pleading, or just an unexplained anomaly, I cannot tell).

                                                    I'll have to spend some time thinking about what is best to do.

                                                    Forgive me if I've allowed this forum to be something bad, when I
                                                    intended it to be only something good.

                                                    gmw.




                                                    SPONSORED LINKS True religion Theology Christian theology
                                                    Online theology degree School of theology Systematic theology



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                                                  • gmw
                                                    I confess, I may have read your and other posts too hastily, and in a bad frame of mind. Please forgive me. gmw. ... that I ... example
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Aug 17 2:41 PM
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      I confess, I may have read your and other posts too hastily, and in a
                                                      bad frame of mind. Please forgive me.

                                                      gmw.

                                                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H. Lewis"
                                                      <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                                                      > Dear brother,
                                                      >
                                                      > Just to be sure I do not defend the Church Polity of the Independent
                                                      > divines. I hope my point is clear that it is the nature of the SL&C
                                                      that I
                                                      > am defending not the men who dissented. I'm simply using them as an
                                                      example
                                                      > of my point.
                                                      >
                                                      > Kind regards,
                                                      >
                                                      > Jerrold
                                                      >
                                                      > zxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcv
                                                      > Rev. Jerrold H. Lewis
                                                      > Associated Presbyterian Church
                                                      > Vancouver BC, Canada V3A 1P2
                                                      > 604.530.4123
                                                      > jerlewis@t...
                                                      > http:/www.apcvan.com
                                                      > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                                                      > zxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcv
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > -----Original Message-----
                                                      > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of gmw
                                                      > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:51 PM
                                                      > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                      > Subject: [BGSpam]Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                                                      > Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                                                      > > Walt wrote:
                                                      > >
                                                      > > >The comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                                      > > >list to assume that the statements are true...
                                                      > >
                                                      > > These words are saddening.
                                                      >
                                                      > Yes they are. And I feel somewhat responsible for allowing this to
                                                      > happen in a forum designed for those who agree with Covenanter
                                                      > principles, not for any Yahoo! to pipe off against Covenanter
                                                      > principles (that kind of stuff goes on in plenty of other forums). I
                                                      > struggle with whether or not to allow some conversations to continue.
                                                      > On one hand, I think it's good to be challenged, and I think that if
                                                      > our principles are sound, they can withstand a challenge. One the
                                                      > other hand, there is no guarantee that all challenges presented will
                                                      > be sufficiently answered (whether that be do to lack of time,
                                                      > resources, skills in logic, writing, or whatever), and that may cause
                                                      > some to stumble or to otherwise be troubled.
                                                      >
                                                      > I currently have in the "pending" area several posts which I may or
                                                      > may not allow to go through. From stuff defending the Independents
                                                      > (something very odd and wrong for Presbyterians to be doing), to more
                                                      > stuff saying that it's always wrong to separate from an essentially
                                                      > true Church (posted by someone who has publically stated his approval
                                                      > of at least one separation -- whether this is pure hypocracy, a case
                                                      > of special pleading, or just an unexplained anomaly, I cannot tell).
                                                      >
                                                      > I'll have to spend some time thinking about what is best to do.
                                                      >
                                                      > Forgive me if I've allowed this forum to be something bad, when I
                                                      > intended it to be only something good.
                                                      >
                                                      > gmw.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > SPONSORED LINKS True religion Theology Christian theology
                                                      > Online theology degree School of theology Systematic theology
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                                      >
                                                      > Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the web.
                                                      >
                                                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                      > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                      >
                                                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                                                    • Jerrold H. Lewis
                                                      Brother, the internet can be a place of ambiguity at times. I completely understand. Kind regards, Jerrold ... From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Aug 17 2:48 PM
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Brother, the internet can be a place of ambiguity at times. I completely understand.
                                                         
                                                        Kind regards,
                                                         
                                                        Jerrold
                                                        -----Original Message-----
                                                        From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of gmw
                                                        Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 2:42 PM
                                                        To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Subject: [BGSpam][BGSpam]Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


                                                        I confess, I may have read your and other posts too hastily, and in a
                                                        bad frame of mind.  Please forgive me.

                                                        gmw.

                                                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jerrold H. Lewis"
                                                        <jerlewis@t...> wrote:
                                                        > Dear brother,
                                                        >
                                                        > Just to be sure I do not defend the Church Polity of the Independent
                                                        > divines. I hope my point is clear that it is the nature of the SL&C
                                                        that I
                                                        > am defending not the men who dissented. I'm simply using them as an
                                                        example
                                                        > of my point.
                                                        >
                                                        > Kind regards,
                                                        >
                                                        > Jerrold
                                                        >
                                                        > zxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcv
                                                        > Rev. Jerrold H. Lewis
                                                        > Associated Presbyterian Church
                                                        > Vancouver BC, Canada V3A 1P2
                                                        > 604.530.4123
                                                        > jerlewis@t...
                                                        > http:/www.apcvan.com
                                                        > http://www.freewebs.com/knowhim/
                                                        > zxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcvzxcv
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > -----Original Message-----
                                                        > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of gmw
                                                        > Sent: Wednesday, August 17, 2005 1:51 PM
                                                        > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                        > Subject: [BGSpam]Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                                                        > Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                                                        > > Walt wrote:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > >The comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                                        > > >list to assume that the statements are true...
                                                        > >
                                                        > > These words are saddening.
                                                        >
                                                        > Yes they are.  And I feel somewhat responsible for allowing this to
                                                        > happen in a forum designed for those who agree with Covenanter
                                                        > principles, not for any Yahoo! to pipe off against Covenanter
                                                        > principles (that kind of stuff goes on in plenty of other forums).  I
                                                        > struggle with whether or not to allow some conversations to continue.
                                                        > On one hand, I think it's good to be challenged, and I think that if
                                                        > our principles are sound, they can withstand a challenge.  One the
                                                        > other hand, there is no guarantee that all challenges presented will
                                                        > be sufficiently answered (whether that be do to lack of time,
                                                        > resources, skills in logic, writing, or whatever), and that may cause
                                                        > some to stumble or to otherwise be troubled.
                                                        >
                                                        > I currently have in the "pending" area several posts which I may or
                                                        > may not allow to go through.   From stuff defending the Independents
                                                        > (something very odd and wrong for Presbyterians to be doing), to more
                                                        > stuff saying that it's always wrong to separate from an essentially
                                                        > true Church (posted by someone who has publically stated his approval
                                                        > of at least one separation -- whether this is pure hypocracy, a case
                                                        > of special pleading, or just an unexplained anomaly, I cannot tell).
                                                        >
                                                        > I'll have to spend some time thinking about what is best to do.
                                                        >
                                                        > Forgive me if I've allowed this forum to be something bad, when I
                                                        > intended it to be only something good.
                                                        >
                                                        > gmw.
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > SPONSORED LINKS True religion Theology Christian theology
                                                        > Online theology degree School of theology Systematic theology
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > YAHOO! GROUPS LINKS
                                                        >
                                                        >  Visit your group "covenantedreformationclub" on the web.
                                                        >
                                                        >  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                        >  covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                        >
                                                        >  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.



                                                      • Matthew Winzer
                                                        Am I to assume that every post I send pertaining to church constitution and separation is now going to be censored. Please let me know so that I do not waste
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Aug 17 6:57 PM
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Am I to assume that every post I send pertaining to church constitution and
                                                          separation is now going to be censored. Please let me know so that I do not
                                                          waste time writing to the list.

                                                          Yours sincerely,
                                                          Matthew Winzer


                                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                                          From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
                                                          To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                                          Sent: Thursday, August 18, 2005 6:50 AM
                                                          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Please...


                                                          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Edgar A. Ibarra
                                                          > Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                                                          >> Walt wrote:
                                                          >>
                                                          >> >The comments made on this forum have caused weaker brethren on this
                                                          >> >list to assume that the statements are true...
                                                          >>
                                                          >> These words are saddening.
                                                          >
                                                          > Yes they are. And I feel somewhat responsible for allowing this to
                                                          > happen in a forum designed for those who agree with Covenanter
                                                          > principles, not for any Yahoo! to pipe off against Covenanter
                                                          > principles (that kind of stuff goes on in plenty of other forums). I
                                                          > struggle with whether or not to allow some conversations to continue.
                                                          > On one hand, I think it's good to be challenged, and I think that if
                                                          > our principles are sound, they can withstand a challenge. One the
                                                          > other hand, there is no guarantee that all challenges presented will
                                                          > be sufficiently answered (whether that be do to lack of time,
                                                          > resources, skills in logic, writing, or whatever), and that may cause
                                                          > some to stumble or to otherwise be troubled.
                                                          >
                                                          > I currently have in the "pending" area several posts which I may or
                                                          > may not allow to go through. From stuff defending the Independents
                                                          > (something very odd and wrong for Presbyterians to be doing), to more
                                                          > stuff saying that it's always wrong to separate from an essentially
                                                          > true Church (posted by someone who has publically stated his approval
                                                          > of at least one separation -- whether this is pure hypocracy, a case
                                                          > of special pleading, or just an unexplained anomaly, I cannot tell).
                                                          >
                                                          > I'll have to spend some time thinking about what is best to do.
                                                          >
                                                          > Forgive me if I've allowed this forum to be something bad, when I
                                                          > intended it to be only something good.
                                                          >
                                                          > gmw.
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                        • gmw
                                                          ... constitution and ... I do not ... No, not necessarily. I m just taking the time to think about things, and I ll hold on to what I got until I figure that
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Aug 17 7:50 PM
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Matthew Winzer"
                                                            <mwinzer@p...> wrote:
                                                            > Am I to assume that every post I send pertaining to church
                                                            constitution and
                                                            > separation is now going to be censored. Please let me know so that
                                                            I do not
                                                            > waste time writing to the list.

                                                            No, not necessarily. I'm just taking the time to think about things,
                                                            and I'll hold on to what I got until I figure that out.

                                                            No one wants you to waste your time. You have a flock to feed.

                                                            gmw.
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