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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Question From One Learning

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  • Larry Bump
    ... No. Those bonds were broken by others, long ago, and cannot be held against you. It is impossible for you to do so. Larry
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 21, 2005
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      Kevin Guillory wrote:

      > I've been observing the ongoing discussions and have been fascinated by
      >them. I've also spoken over the phone to some of you. As a
      >Lutheran-thinking-of-becoming-Reformed/Presbyterian, if I were to become a
      >Covenanter, would that mean that I would have to swear allegiance to the
      >throne of England? Would it mean that I would have to renounce the
      >(sinful) U.S. revolution and become a British citizen?
      >
      No. Those bonds were broken by others, long ago, and cannot be held
      against you. It is impossible for you to do so.

      Larry
    • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
      Dear Kevin, My response after your questions... ... fascinated by ... become a ... to the ... NO! 1st they themselves are in a state of covenant-breaking.
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 21, 2005
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        Dear Kevin,

        My response after your questions...

        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Guillory"
        <staphlobob@v...> wrote:
        > I've been observing the ongoing discussions and have been
        fascinated by
        > them. I've also spoken over the phone to some of you. As a
        > Lutheran-thinking-of-becoming-Reformed/Presbyterian, if I were to
        become a
        > Covenanter, would that mean that I would have to swear allegiance
        to the
        > throne of England?

        NO! 1st they themselves are in a state of covenant-breaking. What
        the covenants are asking for is to support the lawful magistrate as
        it was clarified in the Auchensaugh Renovation of the SL&C.

        Would it mean that I would have to renounce the
        > (sinful) U.S. revolution and become a British citizen?

        NO! As that would amount to swearing allegiance to a covenant-
        breaking government. We are against swearing allegiance to any
        nation that will not recognize Jesus Christ as King of the nation,
        solely contra the pluarlism of religion. So if we have a member
        that is a permenant resident, they would not seek citizenship as
        that would be aligning oneself to a covenant-breaking nation and
        therefore passively (unless you serve it under a magisterial
        capacity, i.e. secret service, military, F.B.I. then it would be
        actively) participating in this sin. This coming from a person that
        served 8 years in the United States Marine Corps (you don't find any
        branch more dogmatic to War and protection to this country).

        > Perhaps this is a silly question for some, but from what
        I've been
        > reading and hearing it seems that way to me.


        No sincere question is silly.

        I appreciate whatever help
        > any of you may be able to give.


        I hope it helps. I am sure others will further clarify and some
        will go against my answer.


        >
        > For Christ's Cross and Crown,
        > Kevin Guillory
        >

        Yes, for Christ's Crown & Covenant,

        Edgar Ibarra


        > --
        > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:
        http://www.opera.com/mail/
      • Kevin Guillory
        On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:30:24 +0000, Edgar A. Ibarra Jr. ... Thanks for your response. And thanks especially for your service! What lawful magistrate might
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 21, 2005
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          On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:30:24 +0000, Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
          <puritanpresbyterian@...> wrote:

          > NO! 1st they themselves are in a state of covenant-breaking. What
          > the covenants are asking for is to support the lawful magistrate as
          > it was clarified in the Auchensaugh Renovation of the SL&C.


          Thanks for your response. And thanks especially for your service!
          What "lawful magistrate" might that be? Or, if one doesn't exist right
          now, how could one come into existence?

          For Christ's Cross & Crown,
          Kevin Guillory
          --
          Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
        • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
          Brother Kevin, ... For those nations that are under Covenant obligations, it would be the magistrate that swears and owns the Covenants. The Stuart kings,
          Message 4 of 7 , Jul 22, 2005
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            Brother Kevin,

            > What "lawful magistrate" might that be?

            For those nations that are under Covenant obligations, it would be
            the magistrate that swears and owns the Covenants. The Stuart
            kings, minus King James II, swore allegiance to the Covenants, then
            broke them several times.


            Or, if one doesn't exist right
            > now, how could one come into existence?

            By the proclamation of the Gospel. When the Christians become a
            majority and have the back bone to correctly and Biblically strieve
            for a government that adheres to Biblical principles in its laws and
            legislature, we can hope to have this.

            Kevin, I am glad that you are asking these good questions. I am
            also glad that you are inquiring into Presbyterianism. Another
            excellent area of inquiry would be the Regulative Principle of
            Worship as it relates to the Presbyterian view versus the Lutheran
            view. Unless of course, you have already worked thru this issue.

            I hope I can continue to be a help for you. May the Lord bless your
            studies.

            For His glory,

            Edgar



            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Guillory"
            <staphlobob@v...> wrote:
            > On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:30:24 +0000, Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
            > <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
            >
            > > NO! 1st they themselves are in a state of covenant-breaking. What
            > > the covenants are asking for is to support the lawful magistrate
            as
            > > it was clarified in the Auchensaugh Renovation of the SL&C.
            >
            >
            > Thanks for your response. And thanks especially for your
            service!
            > What "lawful magistrate" might that be? Or, if one doesn't
            exist right
            > now, how could one come into existence?
            >
            > For Christ's Cross & Crown,
            > Kevin Guillory
            > --
            > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:
            http://www.opera.com/mail/
          • Fred blahous
            G day Kevin, I would definitely NOT recommend swearing allegiance to Elizabeth II, since this oath regards her as the head of the Church of England and retains
            Message 5 of 7 , Jul 26, 2005
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              G'day Kevin,

              I would definitely NOT recommend swearing allegiance to Elizabeth
              II, since this oath regards her as the head of the Church of England
              and retains the Acts Recissory. Our discussions on Civil government
              are not related to any current governments (although they could
              change that by adopting the covenants themselves), and reflect
              differences of opinion between us.

              All the best to you,
              Fred.

              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Guillory"
              <staphlobob@v...> wrote:
              > I've been observing the ongoing discussions and have been
              fascinated by
              > them. I've also spoken over the phone to some of you. As a
              > Lutheran-thinking-of-becoming-Reformed/Presbyterian, if I were to
              become a
              > Covenanter, would that mean that I would have to swear allegiance
              to the
              > throne of England? Would it mean that I would have to renounce
              the
              > (sinful) U.S. revolution and become a British citizen?
              > Perhaps this is a silly question for some, but from what
              I've been
              > reading and hearing it seems that way to me. I appreciate
              whatever help
              > any of you may be able to give.
              >
              > For Christ's Cross and Crown,
              > Kevin Guillory
              >
              > --
              > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:
              http://www.opera.com/mail/
            • Fred blahous
              Lawful magistrate means settling the true religion in accordance with the Westminster standards, Supressing all false and contrary doctrine, and renewing the
              Message 6 of 7 , Jul 26, 2005
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                Lawful magistrate means settling the true religion in accordance
                with the Westminster standards, Supressing all false and contrary
                doctrine, and renewing the Covenants. None presently do this, but by
                bringing the whole gospel to the people, and God showing undeserved
                mercy to us by converting the bulk of the people, we can establish a
                lawful king again.

                All the best,
                Fred.

                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Kevin Guillory"
                <staphlobob@v...> wrote:
                > On Thu, 21 Jul 2005 20:30:24 +0000, Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                > <puritanpresbyterian@y...> wrote:
                >
                > > NO! 1st they themselves are in a state of covenant-breaking. What
                > > the covenants are asking for is to support the lawful magistrate
                as
                > > it was clarified in the Auchensaugh Renovation of the SL&C.
                >
                >
                > Thanks for your response. And thanks especially for your
                service!
                > What "lawful magistrate" might that be? Or, if one doesn't
                exist right
                > now, how could one come into existence?
                >
                > For Christ's Cross & Crown,
                > Kevin Guillory
                > --
                > Using Opera's revolutionary e-mail client:
                http://www.opera.com/mail/
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