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Order of Events.

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  • personalwg@chartermi.net
    I wrote the following outline and presented it to someone for discussion over 1 year ago and although I have a more full knowledge and clarification (and much
    Message 1 of 18 , Jun 12, 2005
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      I wrote the following outline and presented it to someone for discussion
      over 1 year ago and although I have a more full knowledge and
      clarification (and much more detail on these events), it was interesting
      to discuss these order of events.

      Although I know that some will disagree with the following order of
      events, I would be interested to learn from anyone their views. In
      reading those previous comments, I even have some changes and would have
      written some of my comments differently today. It is interesting to
      look back over my past writings and say, "Wow, what was I trying to say,
      as now I would not say it that way...but perhaps it was the not yet time
      that I be given more full and complete knowledge."

      On January 27, 2004 I wrote the following:

      "This is SPECULATION, and based upon research into the order of events:

      Daniel speaks about 1260, 1290 and 1335 year periods. I believe these
      are year periods, not days.

      The period of the 1260 years may be coming to an end and thereafter
      there will be a slaying of the witnesses or killing of the testimony.
      After the killing of the testimony the Papacy will take a hugh hit or
      the time of one-tenth part of the city falls. A small remnant will begin
      the restoration of Israel into the Christian Church.

      The end of the 1260 will start the seven vials which pour out upon the
      beast and ten horns (eg., Western Europe). This goes for 30 years.

      The battle of Armageddon ends at the 1290 and completes the seventh
      vial. Israel now sees that Christ is their rejected cornerstone.

      The period from 1290 to 1335 starts a massive restoration of Israel into
      the Christian Church. There will be resistance, but great building until
      the 1335 period (45 years) and Satan is then bound after a short battle
      of Gog and Magog.

      The millennium, which may or may not be 1,000 years long, begins after
      the 1335 and binding of Satan.

      The rapture and immediate subsequent second coming of Christ will be at
      the end of the millennial period to judge the nations, etal."
    • personalwg@chartermi.net
      I ll make a suggested change from the following first paragraph. I said: The period of the 1260 years may be coming to an end and thereafter there will be a
      Message 2 of 18 , Jun 12, 2005
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        I'll make a suggested change from the following first paragraph. I said:

        "The period of the 1260 years may be coming to an end and thereafter
        there will be a slaying of the witnesses or killing of the testimony.
        After the killing of the testimony the Papacy will take a hugh hit or
        the time of one-tenth part of the city falls. A small remnant will begin
        the restoration of Israel into the Christian Church."

        That opening paragraph can be a bit confusing as the next paragraph
        describes the end of the 1260 year period and the start of the 1260-1290
        period (30 years). Above it seems to imply that at the end of the 1260
        year period, there is a slaying of the witnesses and then a hugh hit on
        the papacy and the start of a restoration of Israel. This is not what I
        believe today.

        I have subsequently learned that the slaying of the witnesses shall
        happen at the end of the 1260 year period and just prior to the start of
        the next 30 years that would begin and end with the pouring out of the
        vial judgments. The vial judgment period (again 30 years) will be the
        period where Papal Antichrist takes a huge hit and will ultimately be
        destroyed. Clearly, there is a distinction between Satan himself being
        destroyed at the end of the millennium and his "evil partners" (so to
        speak) being destroyed prior the start of the millennium.

        The 7th vial (Rev. 16:19, Rev.19:20) describes this fall of the "King of
        Babylon" who is given power by Satan. At this point Satan himself is
        suffering a great defeat/fall, as both the Beast (which represents the
        civil power of the growing European Union) and the False Prophet (which
        represents the religious power of Antichrist/the Man of Sin/The Office
        of Pontifex Maximus) are cast down into the lake of fire.

        So really the opening paragraph I described covers the period of 30
        years between the 1260 and 1290 periods (the period of great judgement
        and fall of the Beast/False Prophet).

        Previously, I thought somehow the Papal Antichrist would take its huge
        hit immediately after the slaying of the witnesses, and just *prior to*
        the start of the vial judgments and the vial periods were reserved for
        the beast and false prophet (making the false prophet different than the
        "religious power of Antichrist/the Man of Sin/The Office of Pontifex
        Maximus as above).

        *I guess that is where my pre-mill background got me confused with the
        False Prophet being one, the Antichrist being another and the Beast
        being a third moral person to this great 30 year party of vial
        judgements*. I suspect that will be some party! :)

        Isa. 14:12 may also be considered "a fall" of Satan's most power office,
        with Satan's final fall himself, again, at the end of the millennium.

        Almost two years ago someone shared with me the following explanation on
        the Antichrist that may be helpful to some as they compare scripture
        with scripture. Although I can see how some may be able to know
        Antichrist as the Pope, I was interested in a more fully understanding
        of "the office" of the Antichrist back then as I am a former Roman
        Catholic myself and my parents are still Catholic. To mention the Pope
        as Antichrist does not make for friendly conversation, but my discussion
        about the Papal Office got me closer to winning a prize for *our son who
        has completely lost his senses*. Now, I have my younger brother and
        younger sister believing these views and we are now *our children who
        have completely lost all their senses*. However, the local Priest
        refuses to meet with me to discuss these issues according to my dad as
        it is just not going to be profitable as I'm too far gone! :)

        Here is a definition:

        "The literal historical Kings of Babylon (such as Nebuchadnezzar,
        Evil-Merodach, or Beltshazzar) held "the office" of Pontifex
        (Priest-King) according to their Babylonian Mystery religion. They were
        considered both High Priest of the mystery religion, and Sovereign King
        with civil power--thus they required their people to worship them as
        self-deified gods--as do all who assume the official title of Pontifex
        of the mystery religion--whether they be Ceasar's or Popes.

        The Man of Sin--likewise "as Pontifex" holds the same "official"
        position as the literal kings of Babylon--and when he falls--that
        is--when "his office" of pretended priest/king is cast down/gone forever
        from the earth--(which coincides with the restoration of the Jews)--he
        is thus represented as a King of Babylon--a star (a
        ministerial/ruler)--which falls from the political and ecclesiastical
        heave (a symbol used of both political power and ecclesiastical
        power)--and is then cast into the grave--and thus gone from the earth
        forever--never to rise again."

        So I offer the above ideas as to my clarification on the order of
        events, and also this quote I found this morning that I thought would be
        in line with some of our previous discussions on the Antichrist. I
        would be interested to know if anyone on this forum *disagrees* with the
        definition above on the distinctions between the beast and false
        prophet, and whether it would be fair to assume that the Antichrist/The
        Man of Sin which does hold "the office" as former Kings, and is the King
        of Babylon which falls at the 7th Vial.

        Gerry, have you found in your research a lot of different views on how
        some of these historical events are unfolding?

        May the grace of our Lord be with you,

        Walt.
        personalwg@... wrote:

        > I wrote the following outline and presented it to someone for discussion
        > over 1 year ago and although I have a more full knowledge and
        > clarification (and much more detail on these events), it was interesting
        > to discuss these order of events.
        >
        > Although I know that some will disagree with the following order of
        > events, I would be interested to learn from anyone their views. In
        > reading those previous comments, I even have some changes and would have
        > written some of my comments differently today. It is interesting to
        > look back over my past writings and say, "Wow, what was I trying to say,
        > as now I would not say it that way...but perhaps it was the not yet time
        > that I be given more full and complete knowledge."
        >
        > On January 27, 2004 I wrote the following:
        >
        > "This is SPECULATION, and based upon research into the order of events:
        >
        > Daniel speaks about 1260, 1290 and 1335 year periods. I believe these
        > are year periods, not days.
        >
        > The period of the 1260 years may be coming to an end and thereafter
        > there will be a slaying of the witnesses or killing of the testimony.
        > After the killing of the testimony the Papacy will take a hugh hit or
        > the time of one-tenth part of the city falls. A small remnant will begin
        > the restoration of Israel into the Christian Church.
        >
        > The end of the 1260 will start the seven vials which pour out upon the
        > beast and ten horns (eg., Western Europe). This goes for 30 years.
        >
        > The battle of Armageddon ends at the 1290 and completes the seventh
        > vial. Israel now sees that Christ is their rejected cornerstone.
        >
        > The period from 1290 to 1335 starts a massive restoration of Israel into
        > the Christian Church. There will be resistance, but great building until
        > the 1335 period (45 years) and Satan is then bound after a short battle
        > of Gog and Magog.
        >
        > The millennium, which may or may not be 1,000 years long, begins after
        > the 1335 and binding of Satan.
        >
        > The rapture and immediate subsequent second coming of Christ will be at
        > the end of the millennial period to judge the nations, etal."
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
        > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
        >
        > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
        >
        > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
        >
        > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
        >
        >
      • Glenn Ferrell
        When and what started the 1260 year countdown? ... From: personalwg@chartermi.net To:
        Message 3 of 18 , Jun 13, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          When and what started the 1260 year countdown?
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Sunday, June 12, 2005 9:15 AM
          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

          I'll make a suggested change from the following first paragraph.  I said:

          "The period of the 1260 years may be coming to an end and thereafter
          there will be a slaying of the witnesses or killing of the testimony.
          After the killing of the testimony the Papacy will take a hugh hit or
          the time of one-tenth part of the city falls. A small remnant will begin
          the restoration of Israel into the Christian Church."

          That opening paragraph can be a bit confusing as the next paragraph
          describes the end of the 1260 year period and the start of the 1260-1290
          period (30 years).  Above it seems to imply that at the end of the 1260
          year period, there is a slaying of the witnesses and then a hugh hit on
          the papacy and the start of a restoration of Israel.  This is not what I
          believe today.

          I have subsequently learned that the slaying of the witnesses shall
          happen at the end of the 1260 year period and just prior to the start of
          the next 30 years that would begin and end with the pouring out of the
          vial judgments.  The vial judgment period (again 30 years) will be the
          period where Papal Antichrist takes a huge hit and will ultimately be
          destroyed.  Clearly, there is a distinction between Satan himself being
          destroyed at the end of the millennium and his "evil partners" (so to
          speak) being destroyed prior the start of the millennium.

          The 7th vial (Rev. 16:19, Rev.19:20) describes this fall of the "King of
          Babylon" who is given power by Satan.  At this point Satan himself is
          suffering a great defeat/fall, as both the Beast (which represents the
          civil power of the growing European Union) and the False Prophet (which
          represents the religious power of Antichrist/the Man of Sin/The Office
          of Pontifex Maximus) are cast down into the lake of fire.

          So really the opening paragraph I described covers the period of 30
          years between the 1260 and 1290 periods (the period of great judgement
          and fall of the Beast/False Prophet).

          Previously, I thought somehow the Papal Antichrist would take its huge
          hit immediately after the slaying of the witnesses, and just *prior to*
          the start of the vial judgments and the vial periods were reserved for
          the beast and false prophet (making the false prophet different than the
          "religious power of Antichrist/the Man of Sin/The Office of Pontifex
          Maximus as above).

          *I guess that is where my pre-mill background got me confused with the
          False Prophet being one, the Antichrist being another and the Beast
          being a third moral person to this great 30 year party of vial
          judgements*.  I suspect that will be some party! :)

          Isa. 14:12 may also be considered "a fall" of Satan's most power office,
          with Satan's final fall himself, again, at the end of the millennium.

          Almost two years ago someone shared with me the following explanation on
          the Antichrist that may be helpful to some as they compare scripture
          with scripture.  Although I can see how some may be able to know
          Antichrist as the Pope, I was interested in a more fully understanding
          of "the office" of the Antichrist back then as I am a former Roman
          Catholic myself and my parents are still Catholic.  To mention the Pope
          as Antichrist does not make for friendly conversation, but my discussion
          about the Papal Office got me closer to winning a prize for *our son who
          has completely lost his senses*.  Now, I have my younger brother and
          younger sister believing these views and we are now *our children who
          have completely lost all their senses*.  However, the local Priest
          refuses to meet with me to discuss these issues according to my dad as
          it is just not going to be profitable as I'm too far gone! :)

          Here is a definition:

          "The literal historical Kings of Babylon (such as Nebuchadnezzar,
          Evil-Merodach, or Beltshazzar) held "the office" of Pontifex
          (Priest-King) according to their Babylonian Mystery religion.  They were
          considered both High Priest of the mystery religion, and Sovereign King
          with civil power--thus they required their people to worship them as
          self-deified gods--as do all who assume the official title of Pontifex
          of the mystery religion--whether they be Ceasar's or Popes.

          The Man of Sin--likewise "as Pontifex" holds the same "official"
          position as the literal kings of Babylon--and when he falls--that
          is--when "his office" of pretended priest/king is cast down/gone forever
          from the earth--(which coincides with the restoration of the Jews)--he
          is thus represented as a King of Babylon--a star (a
          ministerial/ruler)--which falls from the political and ecclesiastical
          heave (a symbol used of both political power and ecclesiastical
          power)--and is then cast into the grave--and thus gone from the earth
          forever--never to rise again."

          So I offer the above ideas as to my clarification on the order of
          events, and also this quote I found this morning that I thought would be
          in line with some of our previous discussions on the Antichrist.  I
          would be interested to know if anyone on this forum *disagrees* with the
          definition above on the distinctions between the beast and false
          prophet, and whether it would be fair to assume that the Antichrist/The
          Man of Sin which does hold "the office" as former Kings, and is the King
          of Babylon which falls at the 7th Vial.

          Gerry, have you found in your research a lot of different views on how
          some of these historical events are unfolding?

          May the grace of our Lord be with you,

          Walt.
          personalwg@... wrote:

          > I wrote the following outline and presented it to someone for discussion
          > over 1 year ago and although I have a more full knowledge and
          > clarification (and much more detail on these events), it was interesting
          > to discuss these order of events.
          >
          > Although I know that some will disagree with the following order of
          > events, I would be interested to learn from anyone their views.  In
          > reading those previous comments, I even have some changes and would have
          > written some of my comments differently today.  It is interesting to
          > look back over my past writings and say, "Wow, what was I trying to say,
          > as now I would not say it that way...but perhaps it was the not yet time
          > that I be given more full and complete knowledge."
          >
          > On January 27, 2004 I wrote the following:
          >
          > "This is SPECULATION, and based upon research into the order of events:
          >
          > Daniel speaks about 1260, 1290 and 1335 year periods. I believe these
          > are year periods, not days.
          >
          > The period of the 1260 years may be coming to an end and thereafter
          > there will be a slaying of the witnesses or killing of the testimony.
          > After the killing of the testimony the Papacy will take a hugh hit or
          > the time of one-tenth part of the city falls. A small remnant will begin
          > the restoration of Israel into the Christian Church.
          >
          > The end of the 1260 will start the seven vials which pour out upon the
          > beast and ten horns (eg., Western Europe). This goes for 30 years.
          >
          > The battle of Armageddon ends at the 1290 and completes the seventh
          > vial. Israel now sees that Christ is their rejected cornerstone.
          >
          > The period from 1290 to 1335 starts a massive restoration of Israel into
          > the Christian Church. There will be resistance, but great building until
          > the 1335 period (45 years) and Satan is then bound after a short battle
          > of Gog and Magog.
          >
          > The millennium, which may or may not be 1,000 years long, begins after
          > the 1335 and binding of Satan.
          >
          > The rapture and immediate subsequent second coming of Christ will be at
          > the end of the millennial period to judge the nations, etal."
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
          > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
          >
          >     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
          >       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
          >       
          >     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          >       covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >       <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
          >       
          >     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          >       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
          >
          >


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        • personalwg@chartermi.net
          That depends on whom you speak with and how they calculate the years. There are some that would rather calculate the 1290 period and move backwards to the 1260
          Message 4 of 18 , Jun 13, 2005
          • 0 Attachment
            That depends on whom you speak with and how they calculate the years.
            There are some that would rather calculate the 1290 period and move
            backwards to the 1260 and then again forward to the 1335. However, any
            speculation on these dates only causes most post-mill (and especially
            the a-mill) folks to get their tail in a spin. So it would be best not
            to try to determine (or reference) the start date on this thread.
            However, I will say that some do believe that the 1290 period can be
            determined through Scripture and historical testimony.

            Here is a hint:

            "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
            but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the
            children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the
            children of the promise are counted for the seed" (Rom.9:7-8).

            "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.^
            For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth
            and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more
            children than she which hath an husband.^ Now we, brethren, as Isaac
            was, are the children of promise" (Gal.4:26-28).

            There are others on this list that have a much greater understanding on
            these subjects than me and I would appeal to their commentary more so
            than mine.

            For the cause of Christ,
            Walt.

            Glenn Ferrell wrote:

            > When and what started the 1260 year countdown?
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > *From:* personalwg@... <mailto:personalwg@...>
            > *To:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
            > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
            > *Sent:* Sunday, June 12, 2005 9:15 AM
            > *Subject:* Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.
            >
            > I'll make a suggested change from the following first paragraph.
            > I said:
            >
            > "The period of the 1260 years may be coming to an end and thereafter
            > there will be a slaying of the witnesses or killing of the testimony.
            > After the killing of the testimony the Papacy will take a hugh hit or
            > the time of one-tenth part of the city falls. A small remnant will
            > begin
            > the restoration of Israel into the Christian Church."
            >
            > That opening paragraph can be a bit confusing as the next paragraph
            > describes the end of the 1260 year period and the start of the
            > 1260-1290
            > period (30 years). Above it seems to imply that at the end of the
            > 1260
            > year period, there is a slaying of the witnesses and then a hugh
            > hit on
            > the papacy and the start of a restoration of Israel. This is not
            > what I
            > believe today.
            >
            > I have subsequently learned that the slaying of the witnesses shall
            > happen at the end of the 1260 year period and just prior to the
            > start of
            > the next 30 years that would begin and end with the pouring out of
            > the
            > vial judgments. The vial judgment period (again 30 years) will be
            > the
            > period where Papal Antichrist takes a huge hit and will ultimately be
            > destroyed. Clearly, there is a distinction between Satan himself
            > being
            > destroyed at the end of the millennium and his "evil partners" (so to
            > speak) being destroyed prior the start of the millennium.
            >
            > The 7th vial (Rev. 16:19, Rev.19:20) describes this fall of the
            > "King of
            > Babylon" who is given power by Satan. At this point Satan himself is
            > suffering a great defeat/fall, as both the Beast (which represents
            > the
            > civil power of the growing European Union) and the False Prophet
            > (which
            > represents the religious power of Antichrist/the Man of Sin/The
            > Office
            > of Pontifex Maximus) are cast down into the lake of fire.
            >
            > So really the opening paragraph I described covers the period of 30
            > years between the 1260 and 1290 periods (the period of great
            > judgement
            > and fall of the Beast/False Prophet).
            >
            > Previously, I thought somehow the Papal Antichrist would take its
            > huge
            > hit immediately after the slaying of the witnesses, and just
            > *prior to*
            > the start of the vial judgments and the vial periods were reserved
            > for
            > the beast and false prophet (making the false prophet different
            > than the
            > "religious power of Antichrist/the Man of Sin/The Office of Pontifex
            > Maximus as above).
            >
            > *I guess that is where my pre-mill background got me confused with
            > the
            > False Prophet being one, the Antichrist being another and the Beast
            > being a third moral person to this great 30 year party of vial
            > judgements*. I suspect that will be some party! :)
            >
            > Isa. 14:12 may also be considered "a fall" of Satan's most power
            > office,
            > with Satan's final fall himself, again, at the end of the millennium.
            >
            > Almost two years ago someone shared with me the following
            > explanation on
            > the Antichrist that may be helpful to some as they compare scripture
            > with scripture. Although I can see how some may be able to know
            > Antichrist as the Pope, I was interested in a more fully
            > understanding
            > of "the office" of the Antichrist back then as I am a former Roman
            > Catholic myself and my parents are still Catholic. To mention the
            > Pope
            > as Antichrist does not make for friendly conversation, but my
            > discussion
            > about the Papal Office got me closer to winning a prize for *our
            > son who
            > has completely lost his senses*. Now, I have my younger brother and
            > younger sister believing these views and we are now *our children who
            > have completely lost all their senses*. However, the local Priest
            > refuses to meet with me to discuss these issues according to my
            > dad as
            > it is just not going to be profitable as I'm too far gone! :)
            >
            > Here is a definition:
            >
            > "The literal historical Kings of Babylon (such as Nebuchadnezzar,
            > Evil-Merodach, or Beltshazzar) held "the office" of Pontifex
            > (Priest-King) according to their Babylonian Mystery religion.
            > They were
            > considered both High Priest of the mystery religion, and Sovereign
            > King
            > with civil power--thus they required their people to worship them as
            > self-deified gods--as do all who assume the official title of
            > Pontifex
            > of the mystery religion--whether they be Ceasar's or Popes.
            >
            > The Man of Sin--likewise "as Pontifex" holds the same "official"
            > position as the literal kings of Babylon--and when he falls--that
            > is--when "his office" of pretended priest/king is cast down/gone
            > forever
            > from the earth--(which coincides with the restoration of the
            > Jews)--he
            > is thus represented as a King of Babylon--a star (a
            > ministerial/ruler)--which falls from the political and ecclesiastical
            > heave (a symbol used of both political power and ecclesiastical
            > power)--and is then cast into the grave--and thus gone from the earth
            > forever--never to rise again."
            >
            > So I offer the above ideas as to my clarification on the order of
            > events, and also this quote I found this morning that I thought
            > would be
            > in line with some of our previous discussions on the Antichrist. I
            > would be interested to know if anyone on this forum *disagrees*
            > with the
            > definition above on the distinctions between the beast and false
            > prophet, and whether it would be fair to assume that the
            > Antichrist/The
            > Man of Sin which does hold "the office" as former Kings, and is
            > the King
            > of Babylon which falls at the 7th Vial.
            >
            > Gerry, have you found in your research a lot of different views on
            > how
            > some of these historical events are unfolding?
            >
            > May the grace of our Lord be with you,
            >
            > Walt.
            > personalwg@... <mailto:personalwg@...> wrote:
            >
            > > I wrote the following outline and presented it to someone for
            > discussion
            > > over 1 year ago and although I have a more full knowledge and
            > > clarification (and much more detail on these events), it was
            > interesting
            > > to discuss these order of events.
            > >
            > > Although I know that some will disagree with the following order of
            > > events, I would be interested to learn from anyone their views. In
            > > reading those previous comments, I even have some changes and
            > would have
            > > written some of my comments differently today. It is interesting to
            > > look back over my past writings and say, "Wow, what was I trying
            > to say,
            > > as now I would not say it that way...but perhaps it was the not
            > yet time
            > > that I be given more full and complete knowledge."
            > >
            > > On January 27, 2004 I wrote the following:
            > >
            > > "This is SPECULATION, and based upon research into the order of
            > events:
            > >
            > > Daniel speaks about 1260, 1290 and 1335 year periods. I believe
            > these
            > > are year periods, not days.
            > >
            > > The period of the 1260 years may be coming to an end and thereafter
            > > there will be a slaying of the witnesses or killing of the
            > testimony.
            > > After the killing of the testimony the Papacy will take a hugh
            > hit or
            > > the time of one-tenth part of the city falls. A small remnant
            > will begin
            > > the restoration of Israel into the Christian Church.
            > >
            > > The end of the 1260 will start the seven vials which pour out
            > upon the
            > > beast and ten horns (eg., Western Europe). This goes for 30 years.
            > >
            > > The battle of Armageddon ends at the 1290 and completes the seventh
            > > vial. Israel now sees that Christ is their rejected cornerstone.
            > >
            > > The period from 1290 to 1335 starts a massive restoration of
            > Israel into
            > > the Christian Church. There will be resistance, but great
            > building until
            > > the 1335 period (45 years) and Satan is then bound after a short
            > battle
            > > of Gog and Magog.
            > >
            > > The millennium, which may or may not be 1,000 years long, begins
            > after
            > > the 1335 and binding of Satan.
            > >
            > > The rapture and immediate subsequent second coming of Christ
            > will be at
            > > the end of the millennial period to judge the nations, etal."
            > >
            > >
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          • keith dotzler
            Since this idea that the Roman empire is signified by the Beast from the sea (Rev. 13:1-10) came up at another forum recently, I thought I would re-post the
            Message 5 of 18 , Jun 13, 2005
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              Since this idea that the Roman empire is signified by the Beast from the sea (Rev. 13:1-10) came up at another forum recently, I thought I would re-post the dialogue here.  My comments are in black throughout:
               
               
              ***********************************
              My first post:
               
              The Beast from the sea is NOT the secular Roman Empire.  John says in Rev. 13:1 that he saw a beast rise up out of the sea...yet we know from history, and Scripture, that the secular Roman Empire was ALREADY IN EXISTENCE before the Revelation was even written; nay, was responsible for "exterminating" the Saviour, after the Jews delivered him up to that secular power (much like the martyrs during the Reformation)!  The Beast that John saw rise up out of the sea was not yet in existence in his day.
               
              Furthermore, the Beast from the sea (Rev. 13), the Scarlet-coloured Beast (Rev. 17), the man of sin (2 Thes. 2), the little horn (Dan. 7), and the Antichrist (1 and 2 John), are all synonymous with one another...all of them being the dynasty of "papas."
               
              The secular Roman Empire, in fact, was the "let" of 2 Thes. 2, which prevented the rise of the Papacy.  That is why the early Church fathers prayed for its continued existence.
               
              ************************
               
              Response to my 1st post:
               
              Keith,

              The similarity between the Beast of the Sea, and the 4th Beast of
              Daniel is unmistakable. And The 4th Beast or metal is the secular
              Roman Empire.

              Dan 7:7  After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth
              beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had
              great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the
              residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts
              that were before it; and it had ten horns.
              Dan 7:8  I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among
              them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first
              horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes
              like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

              Rev 13:1  And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise
              up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his
              horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
              Rev 13:2  And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his
              feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a
              lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great
              authority.

              Notice that the beast of the sea was like unto the 3 preceeding
              beasts of Daniels vision. The Roman Empire amalgamated the world
              empires of antiquity not the Papacy. How can the papacy come up from
              among itself? (Dan 7)

              I believe the beast of the earth better fits the papacy.
               
              *********************************
               
              My 2nd post:
               
              Are you going to wholly ignore the thrust of my argument?  Why would God give John a vision of the secular Roman Empire rising from the sea in Rev. 13, when that empire had already been in existence previous to the birth of Christ?!?!  The vision given John in Rev. 13 was of two Beasts that had not yet risen in his day!!! 
               
              Furthermore, anyone with even a cursory knowledge of Papal dogma and decrees knows the Bishop of Rome plays second fiddle to no one.  He is Christ's "Vicar," who sits in the Temple of God, shewing himself to be God! 
               
              "What can you make of me but God?" 
               
              "...Our Lord God the Pope..." 
               
              See Foxe's Acts and Monuments for more blasphemous claims...taken from the decrees and decretals of the Popes themselves, consisting of 20 full pages.
               
              Simply put, the Pope is not the false prophet/beast from the earth.  The Pope desires the worship of the world...he does not direct those who have not their names written in the Lamb's book of life to worship another!   
               
              The similarity between the Beast of the Sea, and the 4th Beast of Daniel is unmistakable.
               
               
              It matters not how similar you think them to be.  The facts of history prove your assertion to be wrong.  The 4th beast of Daniel is, indeed, the secular Roman Empire, but that beast is not the beast that rises from the sea in Rev 13.  Look at Rev. 13:5, and compare it to Dan. 7:8, 11.  In fact, read Rev. 13:1-10.  Papal Rome is the thing being described, not secular Rome!  The Beast from the sea is synonymous with the little horn and the other entities previously named in my last post.  For now, I will say this:
               
              The Little Horn kills the saints.
              The Beast from the sea kills the saints.
              The Little Horn is killed by Christ at Judgment Day.
              The Beast from the sea is killed by Christ at Judgment Day.
              Therefore, the Little Horn and the Beast from the sea are one and the same.

              The Man of Sin is killed by Christ at Judgment Day.
              The Little Horn is killed by Christ at Judgment Day.
              The Beast from the sea is killed by Christ at Judgment Day.
              Therefore, the Man of Sin is both the Little Horn and the Beast from the sea.
              [ADDENDUM:]
               
              The Little Horn speaks great words against the Most High.
              The Man of sin exalteth himself above all that is called God.
              The Beast from the sea speaks great things and blasphemies, opening his mouth in blasphemy against God.
               
              Therefore, the Man of Sin, is both the Little Horn and Beast from the sea.
               
              The Man of Sin is the Son of Perdition.
              The Scarlet-coloured Beast goeth into perdition.
              The Scarlet-coloured Beast (Rev. 17) ascends out of the bottomless pit.
              The Beast from the bottomless pit (Rev. 11) makes was with and kills the saints.
              The Beast from the sea has 7 heads and 10 horns.
              The Scarlet-coloured Beast has 7 heads and 10 horns.
               
              Therefore, the Man of Sin is also the Beast from the bottomless pit and the Scarlet-coloured Beast.
              Therefore, all the entities listed are one and the same!
               
              [END OF ADDENDUM]

               
              With that said, you DO know the identity of the man of sin, right?
               
              I could continue, and show that the scarlet-coloured Beast and the Antichrist are synonymous with the above 3 entities as well.  As I said, all of them answer to the Pope of Rome.  Daniel 7:25 states the little horn will speak great words against the Most High, will think to change times and laws, and will wear out the saints -- who are given into the hand of the little horn for a time, times, &c. (1260 years).  The Beast from the sea is said, in Rev. 13:5-7, to make war with the saints, speak great things and blasphemies against God, and is also said to continue for 42 months (1260 years).   You previously agreed with me that the 1260 years in Daniel and Revelation were one and the same period of time.  
               
              Thus, with this little demonstration, one can EASILY ascertain the fact that the Beast from the sea and the little horn are one and the same entity.....guilty of the same crimes.
               
              As well, one can also ascertain the fact that the Beast from the sea and Daniel's 4th beast are NOT the same.  
               
              ********************************
               
              Response to my 2nd post:
               
              Keith, your opinion weighs heavily in considering these matters, tho
              I'm still convinced you are wrong.


              > The Little Horn kills the saints.
              > The Beast from the sea kills the saints.
              > The Little Horn is killed by Christ at Judgment Day.
              > The Beast from the sea is killed by Christ at Judgment Day.
              > Therefore, the Little Horn and the Beast from the sea are one and
              the same.

              > The Man of Sin is killed by Christ at Judgment Day.
              > The Little Horn is killed by Christ at Judgment Day.
              > The Beast from the sea is killed by Christ at Judgment Day.
              > Therefore, the Man of Sin is both the Little Horn and the Beast
              from the sea.

              Very weak. Your premisses are true (with some reservations*) but the
              same exact argument could be made for the Beast from the Earth. The
              beast of the earth exercises the same power as the BfS and is killed
              at the exact same time.

              Consider this:
              Dan's 4th Beast has 10 heads
              The BfS has 10 heads
              Dan's 1st 3 Beasts were like a Leopard, Bear and Lion
              The BfS has features of a Leopard, Bear and Lion


              > With that said, you DO know the identity of the man of sin, right?
              Hmmm. Nero? RATHER, the Beast of the Earth.

              Rev 13:13  And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come
              down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
              Rev 13:14  And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means
              of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the
              beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make
              an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

              2Th 2:9  Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with
              all power and signs and lying wonders,

              false anathemas, excommunications, claims about Petrine supremacy,
              claims of indulgences and pardons, etc.

              Do you know who the Antichrist is? ANTICHRIST greek for substitute
              and opponent of Christ the *LAMB* of God.

              Rev 13:11  And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth;
              and he had two horns like a *lamb*, and he spake as a dragon.

              The Pope (bfe) is the lamb of the dragon.


              > Are you going to wholly ignore the thrust of my argument?  Why
              >would God give John a vision of the secular Roman Empire rising
              >from the sea in Rev. 13, when that empire had already been in
              >existence previous to the birth of Christ?!?!  The vision given
              >John in Rev. 13 was of two Beasts that had not yet risen in his
              >day!!! 

              I understand! This definately is the thrust of your argument! (as
              the rest of it is quite uncompelling) and I will consider it.


              >The Pope desires the worship of the world...he does not direct
              >those who have not their names written in the Lamb's book of life
              >to worship another!   

              This is also a good point. But note that the Papacy was the founder
              of and provided the ideological impetus for the Holy Roman Empire.
              Also the Pope has always supported the notion of passive obedience
              to tyrants and the divine right of kings (provided they submit to
              him).

              * Regarding your syllogism: 1st the Pope didnt kill anyone, his
              dirty work was carried out by the secular arm of the antichristian
              empire. 2nd, I think that the Pope and all antichristian forces will
              be killed before the 2nd coming.

              *************************
               
              My 3rd post, along with some Roman Catholic Magisterial teachings and decrees:
               
              Your premisses are true (with some reservations*) but the same exact argument could be made for the Beast from the Earth. The beast of the earth exercises the same power as the BfS and is killed at the exact same time.

               
              The Beast from the earth does not wear out the saints for 1260 years, nor does it speak great blasphemies against the Most High.  As I said in my last post, you previously AGREED that the several references to the 1260 years in Daniel and the Revelation were one and the same period of time.  So, according to your recent postings, then, are you asserting that it is the Roman Empire that wears out the saints for 1260 years?
               
               
              Consider this:
              Dan's 4th Beast has 10 heads
              The BfS has 10 heads

               
              Daniel's 4th beast has ten HORNS, with no heads.  The beasts from the sea and the bottomless pit each have 7 heads and ten horns...making them one and the same entity.  Will you assert that the Beast from Rev. 17, upon whom the whore church rides, is also the Roman Empire?
               
               
              Keith: With that said, you DO know the identity of the man of sin, right?
              P****: Hmmm. Nero? RATHER, the Beast of the Earth.

               
              The man of sin is NOT the beast from the earth.  If you will take the time to gather the several scriptures pertaining to the deeds of the beasts from the sea and bottomless pit, along with the deeds of the man of sin and the little horn, you will see that the beast from the earth cannot be the man of sin.  The beast from the earth has fewer horns than the beast from the sea, signifying lesser power.  Yet, we know from history that the Papacy far surpassed the power of the Roman Empire. 
               
              Lastly, if the Papacy is the beast from the earth/false prophet, then please tell me when it is that the Papacy ever caused all the world to worship the Roman Empire (vs. 12), when the Popes are notoriously known for enthroning and deposing kings at their leisure?  Had they directed the worship of the world to the secular Empire, such an act, in itself, would not only go against the very nature of the prideful papas (their insatiable desire for worship so great, that the "holy" Inquisition was instituted to root out the anti-papal "heretics"), but it would have also destroyed the spiritual stronghold the Romish religion has had on the masses for centuries, via its claim to be Christ on earth, sitting in the chair of St. Peter...outside of whom their is no salvation - determining who goes to heaven, who goes to hell, and who gets put into a purgatorial limbo, until enough money has been paid to release them.
               
              Keep this in mind:  the beast from the earth is in the sight of the beast from the sea (vs. 14).  As the man of sin, a.k.a. the little horn, is a Bishop in the professing Christian church, having the eyes like the eyes of a man; and as a Bishop is an overseer of a flock - episkopeo - we can readily see that it is the Papal Clergy who are overseen by the Pope...always in his sight, directing the world to worship him. 
               
              As I said before, the Pope plays second fiddle to no one.  Asserting that he would direct the world to worship anyone but himself is, to put it mildly, preposterous.
               
              END OF DIALOGUE
               

              Excerpts from Roman Catholic Magisterial teachings and decrees:

              From the Code of Canon Law:

              Art. 2.

              THE COLLEGE OF BISHOPS

              Can. 336 The college of bishops, whose head is the Supreme Pontiff and whose members are bishops by virtue of sacramental consecration and hierarchical communion with the head and members of the college and in which the apostolic body continues, together with its head and never without this head [i.e., the 2nd beast is always in the sight of the 1st beast], is also the subject of supreme and full power over the universal Church.

               

              Can. 337 �2. It exercises the same power.....which the Roman Pontiff has publicly declared or freely accepted.....

               

              From the Documents of Vatican II:

               

              DECREE CONCERNING THE PASTORAL OFFICE OF BISHOPS IN THE CHURCH

              Bishops.....exercise this episcopal office of theirs, which they have received through episcopal consecration, in communion with and under the authority of the supreme pontiff.  As far as their teaching authority and pastoral government are concerned, all are united in a college or body with respect to the universal Church of God.

               

              They exercise this office individually in reference to the portions of the Lord's flock assigned to them....By virtue of sacramental consecration [by which they receive the mark of the beast] and hierarchical communion with the head [the 1st Beast] and members of the college, bishops are constituted as members of the episcopal body [of Antichrist]. "The order of bishops is the successor to the college of the apostles in teaching and pastoral direction, or rather, in the episcopal order, the apostolic body continues without a break. Together with its head, the Roman pontiff [the 1st Beast], and never without this head, it exists as the subject of supreme, plenary power over the universal Church. But this power cannot be exercised except with the agreement of the Roman pontiff."

               

              Now consider the following, in light of the above:

               
              And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. (Rev. 13:11,12)
               
               

              The definitive oath sworn by every committed Roman Catholic since the Council of Trent:

               

              THE CREED OF PIUS IV., A. D. 1564

              (BASIS FOR TODAY'S CONVERT'S PROFESSION OF FAITH)

               

                  �I acknowledge the Roman Church for the mother and mistress of all churches and I promise true obedience to the Bishop of Rome, successor of Peter, Prince of the Apostles and Vicar of Jesus Christ. I most steadfastly admit and embrace apostolical and ecclesiastical traditions, and all other observances and constitutions of the same church. I also admit the holy scripture according to that sense which our holy mother the church has held, and does hold, to which it belongs to judge of the true sense and interpretation of scriptures; neither will I ever take and interpret them otherwise than according to the unanimous consent of the fathers. I likewise undoubtedly receive and profess all things delivered, defined, and declared by the canons and general Councils [including all the decrees, such as ad abolendam and ad extirpanda, which mandate the faithful seek out, discover and destroy all those opposed to the Holy Catholic faith], and particularly by the Council of Trent: and I condemn, reject, and anathematize all things contrary thereto, and all heresies which the church has condemned, rejected, and anathematized. I do freely profess, and sincerely hold this faith, without which no one can be saved."

               

                  �I recognize the Holy Roman, Catholic and Apostolic Church as the mother and teacher of all the Churches and I promise and swear true obedience to the Roman Pontiff, successor of St. Peter, Prince of the Apostles, and Vicar of Jesus Christ. Besides I accept, without hesitation.....concerning the primacy and infallibility of the Roman Pontiff. At the same time I condemn and reprove all that the Church has condemned and reproved. This same Catholic Faith, outside of which nobody can be saved, which I now freely profess and to which I truly adhere, the same I promise and swear to maintain and profess, with the help of God, entire, inviolate and with firm constancy until the last breath of life.....�

               
              NOTE:  The second paragraph above is from the actual Convert's Profession of Faith, the first is the Creed of Pius IV., which was provided for comparison purposes.
               
               
              Catholic Bishops, overseers - episkopoV - who are each assigned "a portion of the Lord's flock," causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, as their teaching and preaching brings in new converts, who then swear an oath of fealty to the Papal beast.
               
               
               
              Keith
               
               
              ----- Original Message -----
              From:
              Sent: 6/12/2005 11:32:24 AM
              Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

              I'll make a suggested change from the following first paragraph.  I said:

              "The period of the 1260 years may be coming to an end and thereafter
              there will be a slaying of the witnesses or killing of the testimony.
              After the killing of the testimony the Papacy will take a hugh hit or
              the time of one-tenth part of the city falls. A small remnant will begin
              the restoration of Israel into the Christian Church."

              That opening paragraph can be a bit confusing as the next paragraph
              describes the end of the 1260 year period and the start of the 1260-1290
              period (30 years).  Above it seems to imply that at the end of the 1260
              year period, there is a slaying of the witnesses and then a hugh hit on
              the papacy and the start of a restoration of Israel.  This is not what I
              believe today.

              I have subsequently learned that the slaying of the witnesses shall
              happen at the end of the 1260 year period and just prior to the start of
              the next 30 years that would begin and end with the pouring out of the
              vial judgments.  The vial judgment period (again 30 years) will be the
              period where Papal Antichrist takes a huge hit and will ultimately be
              destroyed.  Clearly, there is a distinction between Satan himself being
              destroyed at the end of the millennium and his "evil partners" (so to
              speak) being destroyed prior the start of the millennium.

              The 7th vial (Rev. 16:19, Rev.19:20) describes this fall of the "King of
              Babylon" who is given power by Satan.  At this point Satan himself is
              suffering a great defeat/fall, as both the Beast (which represents the
              civil power of the growing European Union) and the False Prophet (which
              represents the religious power of Antichrist/the Man of Sin/The Office
              of Pontifex Maximus) are cast down into the lake of fire.

              So really the opening paragraph I described covers the period of 30
              years between the 1260 and 1290 periods (the period of great judgement
              and fall of the Beast/False Prophet).

              Previously, I thought somehow the Papal Antichrist would take its huge
              hit immediately after the slaying of the witnesses, and just *prior to*
              the start of the vial judgments and the vial periods were reserved for
              the beast and false prophet (making the false prophet different than the
              "religious power of Antichrist/the Man of Sin/The Office of Pontifex
              Maximus as above).

              *I guess that is where my pre-mill background got me confused with the
              False Prophet being one, the Antichrist being another and the Beast
              being a third moral person to this great 30 year party of vial
              judgements*.  I suspect that will be some party! :)

              Isa. 14:12 may also be considered "a fall" of Satan's most power office,
              with Satan's final fall himself, again, at the end of the millennium.

              Almost two years ago someone shared with me the following explanation on
              the Antichrist that may be helpful to some as they compare scripture
              with scripture.  Although I can see how some may be able to know
              Antichrist as the Pope, I was interested in a more fully understanding
              of "the office" of the Antichrist back then as I am a former Roman
              Catholic myself and my parents are still Catholic.  To mention the Pope
              as Antichrist does not make for friendly conversation, but my discussion
              about the Papal Office got me closer to winning a prize for *our son who
              has completely lost his senses*.  Now, I have my younger brother and
              younger sister believing these views and we are now *our children who
              have completely lost all their senses*.  However, the local Priest
              refuses to meet with me to discuss these issues according to my dad as
              it is just not going to be profitable as I'm too far gone! :)

              Here is a definition:

              "The literal historical Kings of Babylon (such as Nebuchadnezzar,
              Evil-Merodach, or Beltshazzar) held "the office" of Pontifex
              (Priest-King) according to their Babylonian Mystery religion.  They were
              considered both High Priest of the mystery religion, and Sovereign King
              with civil power--thus they required their people to worship them as
              self-deified gods--as do all who assume the official title of Pontifex
              of the mystery religion--whether they be Ceasar's or Popes.

              The Man of Sin--likewise "as Pontifex" holds the same "official"
              position as the literal kings of Babylon--and when he falls--that
              is--when "his office" of pretended priest/king is cast down/gone forever
              from the earth--(which coincides with the restoration of the Jews)--he
              is thus represented as a King of Babylon--a star (a
              ministerial/ruler)--which falls from the political and ecclesiastical
              heave (a symbol used of both political power and ecclesiastical
              power)--and is then cast into the grave--and thus gone from the earth
              forever--never to rise again."

              So I offer the above ideas as to my clarification on the order of
              events, and also this quote I found this morning that I thought would be
              in line with some of our previous discussions on the Antichrist.  I
              would be interested to know if anyone on this forum *disagrees* with the
              definition above on the distinctions between the beast and false
              prophet, and whether it would be fair to assume that the Antichrist/The
              Man of Sin which does hold "the office" as former Kings, and is the King
              of Babylon which falls at the 7th Vial.

              Gerry, have you found in your research a lot of different views on how
              some of these historical events are unfolding?

              May the grace of our Lord be with you,

              Walt.
              personalwg@... wrote:

              > I wrote the following outline and presented it to someone for discussion
              > over 1 year ago and although I have a more full knowledge and
              > clarification (and much more detail on these events), it was interesting
              > to discuss these order of events.
              >
              > Although I know that some will disagree with the following order of
              > events, I would be interested to learn from anyone their views.  In
              > reading those previous comments, I even have some changes and would have
              > written some of my comments differently today.  It is interesting to
              > look back over my past writings and say, "Wow, what was I trying to say,
              > as now I would not say it that way...but perhaps it was the not yet time
              > that I be given more full and complete knowledge."
              >
              > On January 27, 2004 I wrote the following:
              >
              > "This is SPECULATION, and based upon research into the order of events:
              >
              > Daniel speaks about 1260, 1290 and 1335 year periods. I believe these
              > are year periods, not days.
              >
              > The period of the 1260 years may be coming to an end and thereafter
              > there will be a slaying of the witnesses or killing of the testimony.
              > After the killing of the testimony the Papacy will take a hugh hit or
              > the time of one-tenth part of the city falls. A small remnant will begin
              > the restoration of Israel into the Christian Church.
              >
              > The end of the 1260 will start the seven vials which pour out upon the
              > beast and ten horns (eg., Western Europe). This goes for 30 years.
              >
              > The battle of Armageddon ends at the 1290 and completes the seventh
              > vial. Israel now sees that Christ is their rejected cornerstone.
              >
              > The period from 1290 to 1335 starts a massive restoration of Israel into
              > the Christian Church. There will be resistance, but great building until
              > the 1335 period (45 years) and Satan is then bound after a short battle
              > of Gog and Magog.
              >
              > The millennium, which may or may not be 1,000 years long, begins after
              > the 1335 and binding of Satan.
              >
              > The rapture and immediate subsequent second coming of Christ will be at
              > the end of the millennial period to judge the nations, etal."
              >
              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
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            • keith dotzler
              I have subsequently learned that the slaying of the witnesses shall happen at the end of the 1260 year period... A Hint regarding the slaying of the witnesses,
              Message 6 of 18 , Jun 13, 2005
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                I have subsequently learned that the slaying of the witnesses shall happen at the end of the 1260 year period...
                 
                A Hint regarding the slaying of the witnesses, their dead bodies lying in the streets for 3 1/2 days, and their resurrection:
                 
                Martin Luther nailed his 95 theses to the doors of the Church at Wittenburg on Oct 31, 1517.  What happened exactly 3 1/2 years earlier, to the day?
                 
                 
                Keith
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                From:
                Sent: 6/12/2005 11:32:24 AM
                Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                I'll make a suggested change from the following first paragraph.  I said:

                "The period of the 1260 years may be coming to an end and thereafter
                there will be a slaying of the witnesses or killing of the testimony.
                After the killing of the testimony the Papacy will take a hugh hit or
                the time of one-tenth part of the city falls. A small remnant will begin
                the restoration of Israel into the Christian Church."

                That opening paragraph can be a bit confusing as the next paragraph
                describes the end of the 1260 year period and the start of the 1260-1290
                period (30 years).  Above it seems to imply that at the end of the 1260
                year period, there is a slaying of the witnesses and then a hugh hit on
                the papacy and the start of a restoration of Israel.  This is not what I
                believe today.

                I have subsequently learned that the slaying of the witnesses shall
                happen at the end of the 1260 year period and just prior to the start of
                the next 30 years that would begin and end with the pouring out of the
                vial judgments.  The vial judgment period (again 30 years) will be the
                period where Papal Antichrist takes a huge hit and will ultimately be
                destroyed.  Clearly, there is a distinction between Satan himself being
                destroyed at the end of the millennium and his "evil partners" (so to
                speak) being destroyed prior the start of the millennium.

                The 7th vial (Rev. 16:19, Rev.19:20) describes this fall of the "King of
                Babylon" who is given power by Satan.  At this point Satan himself is
                suffering a great defeat/fall, as both the Beast (which represents the
                civil power of the growing European Union) and the False Prophet (which
                represents the religious power of Antichrist/the Man of Sin/The Office
                of Pontifex Maximus) are cast down into the lake of fire.

                So really the opening paragraph I described covers the period of 30
                years between the 1260 and 1290 periods (the period of great judgement
                and fall of the Beast/False Prophet).

                Previously, I thought somehow the Papal Antichrist would take its huge
                hit immediately after the slaying of the witnesses, and just *prior to*
                the start of the vial judgments and the vial periods were reserved for
                the beast and false prophet (making the false prophet different than the
                "religious power of Antichrist/the Man of Sin/The Office of Pontifex
                Maximus as above).

                *I guess that is where my pre-mill background got me confused with the
                False Prophet being one, the Antichrist being another and the Beast
                being a third moral person to this great 30 year party of vial
                judgements*.  I suspect that will be some party! :)

                Isa. 14:12 may also be considered "a fall" of Satan's most power office,
                with Satan's final fall himself, again, at the end of the millennium.

                Almost two years ago someone shared with me the following explanation on
                the Antichrist that may be helpful to some as they compare scripture
                with scripture.  Although I can see how some may be able to know
                Antichrist as the Pope, I was interested in a more fully understanding
                of "the office" of the Antichrist back then as I am a former Roman
                Catholic myself and my parents are still Catholic.  To mention the Pope
                as Antichrist does not make for friendly conversation, but my discussion
                about the Papal Office got me closer to winning a prize for *our son who
                has completely lost his senses*.  Now, I have my younger brother and
                younger sister believing these views and we are now *our children who
                have completely lost all their senses*.  However, the local Priest
                refuses to meet with me to discuss these issues according to my dad as
                it is just not going to be profitable as I'm too far gone! :)

                Here is a definition:

                "The literal historical Kings of Babylon (such as Nebuchadnezzar,
                Evil-Merodach, or Beltshazzar) held "the office" of Pontifex
                (Priest-King) according to their Babylonian Mystery religion.  They were
                considered both High Priest of the mystery religion, and Sovereign King
                with civil power--thus they required their people to worship them as
                self-deified gods--as do all who assume the official title of Pontifex
                of the mystery religion--whether they be Ceasar's or Popes.

                The Man of Sin--likewise "as Pontifex" holds the same "official"
                position as the literal kings of Babylon--and when he falls--that
                is--when "his office" of pretended priest/king is cast down/gone forever
                from the earth--(which coincides with the restoration of the Jews)--he
                is thus represented as a King of Babylon--a star (a
                ministerial/ruler)--which falls from the political and ecclesiastical
                heave (a symbol used of both political power and ecclesiastical
                power)--and is then cast into the grave--and thus gone from the earth
                forever--never to rise again."

                So I offer the above ideas as to my clarification on the order of
                events, and also this quote I found this morning that I thought would be
                in line with some of our previous discussions on the Antichrist.  I
                would be interested to know if anyone on this forum *disagrees* with the
                definition above on the distinctions between the beast and false
                prophet, and whether it would be fair to assume that the Antichrist/The
                Man of Sin which does hold "the office" as former Kings, and is the King
                of Babylon which falls at the 7th Vial.

                Gerry, have you found in your research a lot of different views on how
                some of these historical events are unfolding?

                May the grace of our Lord be with you,

                Walt.
                personalwg@... wrote:

                > I wrote the following outline and presented it to someone for discussion
                > over 1 year ago and although I have a more full knowledge and
                > clarification (and much more detail on these events), it was interesting
                > to discuss these order of events.
                >
                > Although I know that some will disagree with the following order of
                > events, I would be interested to learn from anyone their views.  In
                > reading those previous comments, I even have some changes and would have
                > written some of my comments differently today.  It is interesting to
                > look back over my past writings and say, "Wow, what was I trying to say,
                > as now I would not say it that way...but perhaps it was the not yet time
                > that I be given more full and complete knowledge."
                >
                > On January 27, 2004 I wrote the following:
                >
                > "This is SPECULATION, and based upon research into the order of events:
                >
                > Daniel speaks about 1260, 1290 and 1335 year periods. I believe these
                > are year periods, not days.
                >
                > The period of the 1260 years may be coming to an end and thereafter
                > there will be a slaying of the witnesses or killing of the testimony.
                > After the killing of the testimony the Papacy will take a hugh hit or
                > the time of one-tenth part of the city falls. A small remnant will begin
                > the restoration of Israel into the Christian Church.
                >
                > The end of the 1260 will start the seven vials which pour out upon the
                > beast and ten horns (eg., Western Europe). This goes for 30 years.
                >
                > The battle of Armageddon ends at the 1290 and completes the seventh
                > vial. Israel now sees that Christ is their rejected cornerstone.
                >
                > The period from 1290 to 1335 starts a massive restoration of Israel into
                > the Christian Church. There will be resistance, but great building until
                > the 1335 period (45 years) and Satan is then bound after a short battle
                > of Gog and Magog.
                >
                > The millennium, which may or may not be 1,000 years long, begins after
                > the 1335 and binding of Satan.
                >
                > The rapture and immediate subsequent second coming of Christ will be at
                > the end of the millennial period to judge the nations, etal."
                >
                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                >
                >     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                >       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
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              • J. Parnell McCarter
                The abomination of desolation in 70 AD started both the 1260 and the 1290 wilderness years (Dan 12, Rev 11). The church s wilderness years were followed by
                Message 7 of 18 , Jun 13, 2005
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                  The abomination of desolation in 70 AD started both the 1260 and the 1290 wilderness years (Dan 12, Rev 11).  The church's wilderness years were followed by its Protestant Reformation.  But, alas, now she is in her "Babylonian captivity", awaiting her Restoration.

                   

                  If that sounds like OT church history, it is because Christian church history parallels OT church history.  See my book "Thy Kingdom Come" at www.puritans.net .

                   

                  - Parnell McCarter

                   


                  From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Glenn Ferrell
                  Sent: Monday, June 13, 2005 7:32 PM
                  To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                   

                  • When and what started the 1260 year countdown?.
                • personalwg@chartermi.net
                  Again, I would encourage people to study the OT period of Isaac and the NT promises. Parnell is correct when he talks about the OT being often a parallel with
                  Message 8 of 18 , Jun 14, 2005
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                    Again,

                    I would encourage people to study the OT period of Isaac and the NT
                    promises. Parnell is correct when he talks about the OT being often a
                    parallel with the NT, but often people seek to make Daniel 2 and Daniel
                    7 as identifying the "little horn" with Nero, not the Papacy. It would
                    be best to go through Daniel 7:23-27 and substitute "Nero" wherever it
                    speaks about the "little horn" and see if it makes sense. The fourth
                    beast being the Roman Empire.

                    Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260 begins in 70AD.
                    It is my opinion that it begins with an important and significant event
                    in the history of the Papacy to start the 1260 year period, but one
                    should focus on understanding how the 1290 is calculated. This is one
                    the most significant events in the history of the world, and the
                    Christian Church will make see significant changes right near the end of
                    the 1290 year period. See how Psalm 119 speaks about a great victory
                    and perhaps the Jews see their Messiah and the restoration begins.

                    See Psalm 118, Zech.14, Zech 8, Joel 1,2 and 3, Isaiah 24 - 35 for the
                    events that lead up to this end of the 1290 (the 1260-1290 periods).

                    Then read these verses again.

                    "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
                    but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. That is, They which are the
                    children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the
                    children of the promise are counted for the seed" (Rom.9:7-8).

                    "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.^
                    For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth
                    and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more
                    children than she which hath an husband. Now we, brethren, as Isaac
                    was, are the children of promise" (Gal.4:26-28).

                    It is all speculation as they are future events, but perhaps we will see
                    some of these events unfold in our lifetimes and perhaps not.

                    Walt.

                    J. Parnell McCarter wrote:

                    > The abomination of desolation in 70 AD started both the 1260 and the
                    > 1290 wilderness years (Dan 12, Rev 11). The church's wilderness years
                    > were followed by its Protestant Reformation. But, alas, now she is in
                    > her "Babylonian captivity", awaiting her Restoration.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > If that sounds like OT church history, it is because Christian church
                    > history parallels OT church history. See my book "Thy Kingdom Come"
                    > at www.puritans.net .
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > - Parnell McCarter
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    >
                    > *From:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                    > *Glenn Ferrell
                    > *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2005 7:32 PM
                    > *To:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                    > *Subject:* Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > * When and what started the 1260 year countdown?.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                    > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                    >
                    > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                    >
                    > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                    >
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                    > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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                    >
                  • keith dotzler
                    Walt: Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260 begins in 70AD. Nor would the Reformers. Nor would the Puritans. Nor would I. Keith ... From:
                    Message 9 of 18 , Jun 14, 2005
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                      Walt: "Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260 begins in 70AD."
                       
                       
                      Nor would the Reformers.  Nor would the Puritans.  Nor would I.
                       
                       
                       
                      Keith
                       
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From:
                      Sent: 6/14/2005 6:16:15 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                      Again,

                      I would encourage people to study the OT period of Isaac and the NT
                      promises.  Parnell is correct when he talks about the OT being often a
                      parallel with the NT, but often people seek to make Daniel 2 and Daniel
                      7 as identifying the "little horn" with Nero, not the Papacy.  It would
                      be best to go through Daniel 7:23-27 and substitute "Nero" wherever it
                      speaks about the "little horn" and see if it makes sense.  The fourth
                      beast being the Roman Empire.

                      Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260 begins in 70AD. 
                      It is my opinion that it begins with an important and significant event
                      in the history of the Papacy to start the 1260 year period, but one
                      should focus on understanding how the 1290 is calculated.  This is one
                      the most significant events in the history of the world, and the
                      Christian Church will make see significant changes right near the end of
                      the 1290 year period.  See how Psalm 119 speaks about a great victory
                      and perhaps the Jews see their Messiah and the restoration begins.

                      See Psalm 118, Zech.14, Zech 8, Joel 1,2 and 3, Isaiah 24 - 35 for the
                      events that lead up to this end of the 1290 (the 1260-1290 periods).

                      Then read these verses again.

                      "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
                      but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.  That is, They which are the
                      children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the
                      children of the promise are counted for the seed" (Rom.9:7-8).

                      "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.^
                      For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth
                      and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more
                      children than she which hath an husband.  Now we, brethren, as Isaac
                      was, are the children of promise" (Gal.4:26-28).

                      It is all speculation as they are future events, but perhaps we will see
                      some of these events unfold in our lifetimes and perhaps not.

                      Walt.

                      J. Parnell McCarter wrote:

                      > The abomination of desolation in 70 AD started both the 1260 and the
                      > 1290 wilderness years (Dan 12, Rev 11).  The church's wilderness years
                      > were followed by its Protestant Reformation.  But, alas, now she is in
                      > her "Babylonian captivity", awaiting her Restoration.
                      >

                      >
                      > If that sounds like OT church history, it is because Christian church
                      > history parallels OT church history.  See my book "Thy Kingdom Come"
                      > at www.puritans.net .
                      >

                      >
                      > - Parnell McCarter
                      >

                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      >
                      > *From:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                      > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                      > *Glenn Ferrell
                      > *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2005 7:32 PM
                      > *To:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                      > *Subject:* Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.
                      >

                      >
                      >     * When and what started the 1260 year countdown?.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                      > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                      >
                      >     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      >       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                      >       
                      >     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      >       covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >       <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                      >       
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                      >       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                      >
                      >
                    • keith dotzler
                      The 1260 years is the time in which the Beast is to wear out, and trample under foot, the saints of the Most High. As the Papal Beast had not yet arisen in 70
                      Message 10 of 18 , Jun 14, 2005
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                        The 1260 years is the time in which the Beast is to wear out, and trample under foot, the saints of the Most High.  As the Papal Beast had not yet arisen in 70 A.D., the 1260 years could NOT have started at that time.
                         
                         
                         
                        Keith
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: 6/14/2005 10:05:45 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                         
                        Walt: "Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260 begins in 70AD."
                         
                         
                        Nor would the Reformers.  Nor would the Puritans.  Nor would I.
                         
                         
                         
                        Keith
                         
                         
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From:
                        Sent: 6/14/2005 6:16:15 PM
                        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                        Again,

                        I would encourage people to study the OT period of Isaac and the NT
                        promises.  Parnell is correct when he talks about the OT being often a
                        parallel with the NT, but often people seek to make Daniel 2 and Daniel
                        7 as identifying the "little horn" with Nero, not the Papacy.  It would
                        be best to go through Daniel 7:23-27 and substitute "Nero" wherever it
                        speaks about the "little horn" and see if it makes sense.  The fourth
                        beast being the Roman Empire.

                        Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260 begins in 70AD. 
                        It is my opinion that it begins with an important and significant event
                        in the history of the Papacy to start the 1260 year period, but one
                        should focus on understanding how the 1290 is calculated.  This is one
                        the most significant events in the history of the world, and the
                        Christian Church will make see significant changes right near the end of
                        the 1290 year period.  See how Psalm 119 speaks about a great victory
                        and perhaps the Jews see their Messiah and the restoration begins.

                        See Psalm 118, Zech.14, Zech 8, Joel 1,2 and 3, Isaiah 24 - 35 for the
                        events that lead up to this end of the 1290 (the 1260-1290 periods).

                        Then read these verses again.

                        "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children:
                        but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.  That is, They which are the
                        children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the
                        children of the promise are counted for the seed" (Rom.9:7-8).

                        "But Jerusalem which is above is free, which is the mother of us all.^
                        For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth
                        and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more
                        children than she which hath an husband.  Now we, brethren, as Isaac
                        was, are the children of promise" (Gal.4:26-28).

                        It is all speculation as they are future events, but perhaps we will see
                        some of these events unfold in our lifetimes and perhaps not.

                        Walt.

                        J. Parnell McCarter wrote:

                        > The abomination of desolation in 70 AD started both the 1260 and the
                        > 1290 wilderness years (Dan 12, Rev 11).  The church's wilderness years
                        > were followed by its Protestant Reformation.  But, alas, now she is in
                        > her "Babylonian captivity", awaiting her Restoration.
                        >

                        >
                        > If that sounds like OT church history, it is because Christian church
                        > history parallels OT church history.  See my book "Thy Kingdom Come"
                        > at www.puritans.net .
                        >

                        >
                        > - Parnell McCarter
                        >

                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        >
                        > *From:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                        > *Glenn Ferrell
                        > *Sent:* Monday, June 13, 2005 7:32 PM
                        > *To:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                        > *Subject:* Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.
                        >

                        >
                        >     * When and what started the 1260 year countdown?.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                        > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                        >
                        >     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        >       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                        >       
                        >     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        >       covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >       <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                        >       
                        >     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        >       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                        >
                        >
                      • keith dotzler
                        But how long shall the Woman shall remain banished in the wilderness? A time, and times and half a time. This threefold distinction of time is taken out of
                        Message 11 of 18 , Jun 14, 2005
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                          "But how long shall the Woman shall remain banished in the wilderness? A time, and times and half a time. This threefold distinction of time is taken out of Daniel 7:25 and 12:7, where Antiochus (a type of Antichrist) should tread the Saints under foot for a time, times and half a time. What is here meant by it, appears from verse 6, they shall feed her there 1260 days:  Of these days hath been spoken Chapter 11:2.  There it signified the time of the prophesy of the two witnesses: here it is the time of the Woman�s exile in the wilderness. The same time of 42 months there is taken for the space, that the holy city should be trodden down: and Chapter 13:5, it is the time the Beast shall rage against the Saints.  Whence I gather, that

                          • The Church�s abode in the wilderness:
                          • The treading down of the holy city:
                          • The prophesying of the two witnesses:
                          • And the Beast�s persecution of the Saints,

                          shall be at one and the same time: and go together (as it were) with equal steps. The which observation will much illustrate the prophesy: for that which is obscure in one place, is opened by another being more clear." (David Pareus, A Commentary Upon the Divine Revelation of the Apostle and Evangelist John, pg. 276)  

                           
                          Keith
                           
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: 6/14/2005 10:10:58 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                          The 1260 years is the time in which the Beast is to wear out, and trample under foot, the saints of the Most High.  As the Papal Beast had not yet arisen in 70 A.D., the 1260 years could NOT have started at that time.
                           
                           
                           
                          Keith
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: 6/14/2005 10:05:45 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                           
                          Walt: "Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260 begins in 70AD."
                           
                           
                          Nor would the Reformers.  Nor would the Puritans.  Nor would I.
                           
                           
                           
                          Keith
                        • J. Parnell McCarter
                          There have always been differences among reformed on this issue of when the 1260/1290 years began, and it is not so plain as to rise to the level of being a
                          Message 12 of 18 , Jun 15, 2005
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                            There have always been differences among reformed on this issue of when the 1260/1290 years began, and it is not so plain as to rise to the level of being a confessional issue.

                             

                            I would only add that the Geneva Bible says the 1260 years began in 30 AD, which is not so long before my view of 70 AD.

                             

                            And there are others I have read that agree with my view of 70 AD.

                             

                            - Parnell McCarter

                             


                            From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of keith dotzler
                            Sent: Tuesday, June 14, 2005 10:05 PM
                            To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                             

                             

                            Walt: "Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260 begins in 70AD."

                             

                             

                            Nor would the Reformers.  Nor would the Puritans.  Nor would I.

                             

                             

                          • personalwg@chartermi.net
                            The majority of those who believe that the 1260/1290 period begins around 70AD would do so as they believe Nero is the little horn of Daniel, and not the
                            Message 13 of 18 , Jun 15, 2005
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                              The majority of those who believe that the 1260/1290 period begins
                              around 70AD would do so as they believe Nero is the little horn of
                              Daniel, and not the Papacy. A lot of preterists and partial preterists
                              will focus their major events around Nero, and I really believe that
                              explaining to them Dan.7:23-27 by replacing Nero with little horn and it
                              makes it difficult from Scripture.
                              Further, when the Book of Revelation talks about "shortly come to pass",
                              the succession of the seals, trumpets and vials cannot easily be lumped
                              into the destruction of Jerusalem around 70AD. Some believe that
                              "shortly come to pass" means "*begin* to appear in history" and
                              therefore to force everything into and around the 70AD period is not
                              contextually possible.

                              70AD was certainly one of the most significant periods in Scripture and
                              history, but it seems to me that the 1260 begins later where the Papacy
                              becomes the focal point of Antichrist, the little horn and ultimate
                              focus of judgment with the civil beast at the 1290 period. From here
                              the "beginning" of the restoration of the jews will take place up to the
                              1335 period (45 years) prior to the millennium period (which may or may
                              not be 1,000 years, but it is likely using a literal interpretation).

                              Anyhow, I look forward to more ministers writing and preaching on this
                              subject in the future, and hope that it will be a blessing to the elect
                              witnesses with hope.

                              Thanks Parnell for your comments. Long time no chat...I look forward to
                              visiting with you again one day in GR.

                              Walt.

                              J. Parnell McCarter wrote:

                              > There have always been differences among reformed on this issue of
                              > when the 1260/1290 years began, and it is not so plain as to rise to
                              > the level of being a confessional issue.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > I would only add that the Geneva Bible says the 1260 years began in 30
                              > AD, which is not so long before my view of 70 AD.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > And there are others I have read that agree with my view of 70 AD.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > - Parnell McCarter
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              >
                              > *From:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                              > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                              > *keith dotzler
                              > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 14, 2005 10:05 PM
                              > *To:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                              > *Subject:* Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > //Walt: "Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260
                              > begins in 70AD."//
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Nor would the Reformers. Nor would the Puritans. Nor would I.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                              > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                              >
                              > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                              >
                              > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                              >
                              > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                              > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                              >
                              >
                            • J. Parnell McCarter
                              Hi, Walt. Let me know if you ever make it down to GR, and we can get together. Preterists interpret the 1260/1290 days as literal days, and not according to
                              Message 14 of 18 , Jun 15, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Hi, Walt. Let me know if you ever make it down to GR, and we can get
                                together.

                                Preterists interpret the 1260/1290 days as literal days, and not according
                                to the day-year principle of historicists.

                                Historicists who believe the 1260/1290 began in the first century and
                                lasted 1260/1290 years (like me and the Geneva Bible commentators) believe
                                the Rev 13 beast is the pagan-to-papal Roman empire, whose superpower status
                                ended with the Protestant Reformation.

                                IMO the current superpower of the world is not Romish but secularist, though
                                I think the secularist beast will be replaced for a short season by a
                                reinvigorated Romish beast.

                                But we must keep in mind many of these finer points (like whether the 1260
                                years began in the first century or 8th century) are not confessional
                                matters.

                                - Parnell

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                personalwg@...
                                Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:23 AM
                                To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                                The majority of those who believe that the 1260/1290 period begins
                                around 70AD would do so as they believe Nero is the little horn of
                                Daniel, and not the Papacy. A lot of preterists and partial preterists
                                will focus their major events around Nero, and I really believe that
                                explaining to them Dan.7:23-27 by replacing Nero with little horn and it
                                makes it difficult from Scripture.
                                Further, when the Book of Revelation talks about "shortly come to pass",
                                the succession of the seals, trumpets and vials cannot easily be lumped
                                into the destruction of Jerusalem around 70AD. Some believe that
                                "shortly come to pass" means "*begin* to appear in history" and
                                therefore to force everything into and around the 70AD period is not
                                contextually possible.

                                70AD was certainly one of the most significant periods in Scripture and
                                history, but it seems to me that the 1260 begins later where the Papacy
                                becomes the focal point of Antichrist, the little horn and ultimate
                                focus of judgment with the civil beast at the 1290 period. From here
                                the "beginning" of the restoration of the jews will take place up to the
                                1335 period (45 years) prior to the millennium period (which may or may
                                not be 1,000 years, but it is likely using a literal interpretation).

                                Anyhow, I look forward to more ministers writing and preaching on this
                                subject in the future, and hope that it will be a blessing to the elect
                                witnesses with hope.

                                Thanks Parnell for your comments. Long time no chat...I look forward to
                                visiting with you again one day in GR.

                                Walt.

                                J. Parnell McCarter wrote:

                                > There have always been differences among reformed on this issue of
                                > when the 1260/1290 years began, and it is not so plain as to rise to
                                > the level of being a confessional issue.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > I would only add that the Geneva Bible says the 1260 years began in 30
                                > AD, which is not so long before my view of 70 AD.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > And there are others I have read that agree with my view of 70 AD.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > - Parnell McCarter
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                >
                                > *From:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                                > *keith dotzler
                                > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 14, 2005 10:05 PM
                                > *To:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                > *Subject:* Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > //Walt: "Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260
                                > begins in 70AD."//
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Nor would the Reformers. Nor would the Puritans. Nor would I.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                                >
                                > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                                >
                                > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                >
                                <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubs
                                cribe>
                                >
                                > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                >
                                >




                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                              • keith dotzler
                                Historicists who believe the 1260/1290 began in the first century and lasted 1260/1290 years... So what great event transpired in 1330 A.D.? ... From: J.
                                Message 15 of 18 , Jun 16, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                   
                                  "Historicists who believe the 1260/1290 began in the first century  and
                                  lasted 1260/1290 years..."
                                   
                                  So what great event transpired in 1330 A.D.?
                                   
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: 6/16/2005 8:01:00 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                                  Hi, Walt.  Let me know if you ever make it down to GR, and we can get
                                  together.

                                  Preterists interpret the 1260/1290 days as literal days, and not according
                                  to the day-year principle of historicists. 

                                  Historicists who believe the 1260/1290 began in the first century  and
                                  lasted 1260/1290 years (like me and the Geneva Bible commentators) believe
                                  the Rev 13 beast is the pagan-to-papal Roman empire, whose superpower status
                                  ended with the Protestant Reformation.

                                  IMO the current superpower of the world is not Romish but secularist, though
                                  I think the secularist beast will be replaced for a short season by a
                                  reinvigorated Romish beast.

                                  But we must keep in mind many of these finer points (like whether the 1260
                                  years began in the first century or 8th century) are not confessional
                                  matters. 

                                  - Parnell

                                  -----Original Message-----
                                  From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                  [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                  personalwg@...
                                  Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:23 AM
                                  To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                                  The majority of those who believe that the 1260/1290 period begins
                                  around 70AD would do so as they believe Nero is the little horn of
                                  Daniel, and not the Papacy.  A lot of preterists and partial preterists
                                  will focus their major events around Nero, and I really believe that
                                  explaining to them Dan.7:23-27 by replacing Nero with little horn and it
                                  makes it difficult from Scripture.
                                  Further, when the Book of Revelation talks about "shortly come to pass",
                                  the succession of the seals, trumpets and vials cannot easily be lumped
                                  into the destruction of Jerusalem around 70AD.  Some believe that
                                  "shortly come to pass" means "*begin* to appear in history" and
                                  therefore to force everything into and around the 70AD period is not
                                  contextually possible.

                                  70AD was certainly one of the most significant periods in Scripture and
                                  history, but it seems to me that the 1260 begins later where the Papacy
                                  becomes the focal point of Antichrist, the little horn and ultimate
                                  focus of judgment with the civil beast at the 1290 period.  From here
                                  the "beginning" of the restoration of the jews will take place up to the
                                  1335 period (45 years) prior to the millennium period (which may or may
                                  not be 1,000 years, but it is likely using a literal interpretation).

                                  Anyhow, I look forward to more ministers writing and preaching on this
                                  subject in the future, and hope that it will be a blessing to the elect
                                  witnesses with hope.

                                  Thanks Parnell for your comments.  Long time no chat...I look forward to
                                  visiting with you again one day in GR.

                                  Walt.

                                  J. Parnell McCarter wrote:

                                  > There have always been differences among reformed on this issue of
                                  > when the 1260/1290 years began, and it is not so plain as to rise to
                                  > the level of being a confessional issue.
                                  >

                                  >
                                  > I would only add that the Geneva Bible says the 1260 years began in 30
                                  > AD, which is not so long before my view of 70 AD.
                                  >

                                  >
                                  > And there are others I have read that agree with my view of 70 AD.
                                  >

                                  >
                                  > - Parnell McCarter
                                  >

                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  >
                                  > *From:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                  > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                                  > *keith dotzler
                                  > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 14, 2005 10:05 PM
                                  > *To:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                  > *Subject:* Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.
                                  >

                                  >

                                  >
                                  > //Walt: "Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260
                                  > begins in 70AD."//
                                  >

                                  >

                                  >
                                  > Nor would the Reformers.  Nor would the Puritans.  Nor would I.
                                  >

                                  >

                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                  > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                                  >
                                  >     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  >       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                                  >       
                                  >     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  >       covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  >
                                  <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubs
                                  cribe>
                                  >       
                                  >     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                  >       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                  >
                                  >




                                  Yahoo! Groups Links







                                • keith dotzler
                                  ...believe the Rev 13 beast is the pagan-to-papal Roman empire... The Pagan Roman Empire was the restrainer (2 thes 2) that prevented the rise of the man of
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Jun 16, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    "...believe the Rev 13 beast is the pagan-to-papal Roman empire..."
                                     
                                    The Pagan Roman Empire was the restrainer (2 thes 2) that prevented the rise of the man of sin and his Papal Empire, for the Caesars and Chief Bishops could not rule simultaneously from the same seat, nor from the same city.  The Pagan Roman Empire cannot be both the restrainer AND the Beast from the sea.  
                                     
                                    As I stated in a previous post, John saw a beast rise from the sea that was not already in existence in his day!   The Pagan Roman Empire certainly was in existence in John's day!
                                     
                                     
                                    "...the 1260/1290 began in the first century and lasted 1260/1290 years..."
                                     
                                    "...whose superpower status ended with the Protestant Reformation."
                                     
                                    You contradict yourself.  The Protestant Reformation had not even begun 1260 years after 70 A.D. (1330 A.D.)!
                                     
                                    You see, when you assign an early date to the Apocalypse, yet try to remain an historicist, you end up with a CONFUSION and a CONFOUNDING of the Apocalyptic imagery!  Jesus Christ, himself, gives us the key to interpreting the book in the first chapter, when he tells us the stars are the angels (ministers) of the churches (whereas in Joseph's dream, the stars represented his brethren, the literal tribes of Israel), and the candlesticks are the churches (not literal candlesticks, such as the Menorah, which the Jews used)! 
                                     
                                    Hence, the book is written to the CHURCH, and is a history of the Church, from John's day to the Second Advent of Christ.  As such, the destruction of the Jewish Temple in 70 A.D. IS NOT SEEN IN THE BOOK AT ALL. 
                                     
                                    Jewish references (temple, altar, New Jerusalem, candlesticks, stars, etc) are symbolic of that which pertains to the CHURCH. 
                                     
                                     
                                    The 1260 years was to be a time in which the beast would persecute, torture, and murder the true saints of God.  It was not to commence until AFTER the REVEALING of the man of sin (synonymous with the little horn and beast from the sea), when the "let" or Roman Empire was removed to Constantinople in the 4th century. 
                                     
                                    The Papal beast had not been revealed in 70 A.D., so the 1260 years could NOT have started at that time.  These are elementary prophetic truths, Parnell.
                                     
                                     
                                    "But we must keep in mind many of these finer points (like whether the 1260 years began in the first century or 8th century) are not confessional matters." 
                                     
                                    So what?  The Confession says nothing about the dating of the Revelation either, yet we know that an early dating of the book (of which you are an advocate) gives rise to the heretical interpretations held by the Preterists!
                                     
                                     
                                    Would you not agree that knowing whether Nero was the Beast, or if the Papacy is the fulfillment of that which was foretold in Scripture, is vitally important to the Church?
                                     
                                     
                                    Keith
                                     
                                     
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: 6/16/2005 8:01:00 AM
                                    Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                                    Hi, Walt.  Let me know if you ever make it down to GR, and we can get
                                    together.

                                    Preterists interpret the 1260/1290 days as literal days, and not according
                                    to the day-year principle of historicists. 

                                    Historicists who believe the 1260/1290 began in the first century  and
                                    lasted 1260/1290 years (like me and the Geneva Bible commentators) believe
                                    the Rev 13 beast is the pagan-to-papal Roman empire, whose superpower status
                                    ended with the Protestant Reformation.

                                    IMO the current superpower of the world is not Romish but secularist, though
                                    I think the secularist beast will be replaced for a short season by a
                                    reinvigorated Romish beast.

                                    But we must keep in mind many of these finer points (like whether the 1260
                                    years began in the first century or 8th century) are not confessional
                                    matters. 

                                    - Parnell

                                    -----Original Message-----
                                    From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                    [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                    personalwg@...
                                    Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:23 AM
                                    To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                                    The majority of those who believe that the 1260/1290 period begins
                                    around 70AD would do so as they believe Nero is the little horn of
                                    Daniel, and not the Papacy.  A lot of preterists and partial preterists
                                    will focus their major events around Nero, and I really believe that
                                    explaining to them Dan.7:23-27 by replacing Nero with little horn and it
                                    makes it difficult from Scripture.
                                    Further, when the Book of Revelation talks about "shortly come to pass",
                                    the succession of the seals, trumpets and vials cannot easily be lumped
                                    into the destruction of Jerusalem around 70AD.  Some believe that
                                    "shortly come to pass" means "*begin* to appear in history" and
                                    therefore to force everything into and around the 70AD period is not
                                    contextually possible.

                                    70AD was certainly one of the most significant periods in Scripture and
                                    history, but it seems to me that the 1260 begins later where the Papacy
                                    becomes the focal point of Antichrist, the little horn and ultimate
                                    focus of judgment with the civil beast at the 1290 period.  From here
                                    the "beginning" of the restoration of the jews will take place up to the
                                    1335 period (45 years) prior to the millennium period (which may or may
                                    not be 1,000 years, but it is likely using a literal interpretation).

                                    Anyhow, I look forward to more ministers writing and preaching on this
                                    subject in the future, and hope that it will be a blessing to the elect
                                    witnesses with hope.

                                    Thanks Parnell for your comments.  Long time no chat...I look forward to
                                    visiting with you again one day in GR.

                                    Walt.

                                    J. Parnell McCarter wrote:

                                    > There have always been differences among reformed on this issue of
                                    > when the 1260/1290 years began, and it is not so plain as to rise to
                                    > the level of being a confessional issue.
                                    >

                                    >
                                    > I would only add that the Geneva Bible says the 1260 years began in 30
                                    > AD, which is not so long before my view of 70 AD.
                                    >

                                    >
                                    > And there are others I have read that agree with my view of 70 AD.
                                    >

                                    >
                                    > - Parnell McCarter
                                    >

                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    >
                                    > *From:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                    > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                                    > *keith dotzler
                                    > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 14, 2005 10:05 PM
                                    > *To:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                    > *Subject:* Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.
                                    >

                                    >

                                    >
                                    > //Walt: "Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260
                                    > begins in 70AD."//
                                    >

                                    >

                                    >
                                    > Nor would the Reformers.  Nor would the Puritans.  Nor would I.
                                    >

                                    >

                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                    > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                                    >
                                    >     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                    >       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                                    >       
                                    >     * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    >       covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubs
                                    cribe>
                                    >       
                                    >     * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                    >       Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                    >
                                    >




                                    Yahoo! Groups Links







                                  • J. Parnell McCarter
                                    The Morningstar of the Reformation was born, and in 1360 AD (1290 years after 70 AD) began his public ministry. - Parnell McCarter www.puritans.net _____ From:
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Jun 16, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      The Morningstar of the Reformation was born, and in 1360 AD (1290 years after 70 AD) began his public ministry. 

                                       

                                      - Parnell McCarter

                                      www.puritans.net

                                       

                                       


                                      From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of keith dotzler
                                      Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 7:17 PM
                                      To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                                       

                                       

                                      "Historicists who believe the 1260/1290 began in the first century  and
                                      lasted 1260/1290 years..."

                                       

                                      So what great event transpired in 1330 A.D.?

                                       

                                       

                                       

                                      ----- Original Message -----

                                      Sent: 6/16/2005 8:01:00 AM

                                      Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                                       

                                      Hi, Walt.  Let me know if you ever make it down to GR, and we can get
                                      together.

                                      Preterists interpret the 1260/1290 days as literal days, and not according
                                      to the day-year principle of historicists. 

                                      Historicists who believe the 1260/1290 began in the first century  and
                                      lasted 1260/1290 years (like me and the Geneva Bible commentators) believe
                                      the Rev 13 beast is the pagan-to-papal Roman empire , whose superpower status
                                      ended with the Protestant Reformation.

                                      IMO the current superpower of the world is not Romish but secularist, though
                                      I think the secularist beast will be replaced for a short season by a
                                      reinvigorated Romish beast.

                                      But we must keep in mind many of these finer points (like whether the 1260
                                      years began in the first century or 8th century) are not confessional
                                      matters. 

                                      - Parnell

                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                      personalwg@...
                                      Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:23 AM
                                      To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                                      The majority of those who believe that the 1260/1290 period begins
                                      around 70AD would do so as they believe Nero is the little horn of
                                      Daniel, and not the Papacy.  A lot of preterists and partial preterists
                                      will focus their major events around Nero, and I really believe that
                                      explaining to them Dan.7:23-27 by replacing Nero with little horn and it
                                      makes it difficult from Scripture.
                                      Further, when the Book of Revelation talks about "shortly come to pass",
                                      the succession of the seals, trumpets and vials cannot easily be lumped
                                      into the destruction of Jerusalem around 70AD.  Some believe that
                                      "shortly come to pass" means "*begin* to appear in history" and
                                      therefore to force everything into and around the 70AD period is not
                                      contextually possible.

                                      70AD was certainly one of the most significant periods in Scripture and
                                      history, but it seems to me that the 1260 begins later where the Papacy
                                      becomes the focal point of Antichrist, the little horn and ultimate
                                      focus of judgment with the civil beast at the 1290 period.  From here
                                      the "beginning" of the restoration of the jews will take place up to the
                                      1335 period (45 years) prior to the millennium period (which may or may
                                      not be 1,000 years, but it is likely using a literal interpretation).

                                      Anyhow, I look forward to more ministers writing and preaching on this
                                      subject in the future, and hope that it will be a blessing to the elect
                                      witnesses with hope.

                                      Thanks Parnell for your comments.  Long time no chat...I look forward to
                                      visiting with you again one day in GR.

                                      Walt.

                                      J. Parnell McCarter wrote:

                                      > There have always been differences among reformed on this issue of
                                      > when the 1260/1290 years began, and it is not so plain as to rise to
                                      > the level of being a confessional issue.
                                      >

                                      >
                                      > I would only add that the Geneva Bible says the 1260 years began in 30
                                      > AD, which is not so long before my view of 70 AD.
                                      >

                                      >
                                      > And there are others I have read that agree with my view of 70 AD.
                                      >

                                      >
                                      > - Parnell McCarter
                                      >

                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      >
                                      > *From:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                      > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                                      > *keith dotzler
                                      > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 14, 2005 10:05 PM
                                      > *To:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                      > *Subject:* Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.
                                      >

                                      >

                                      >
                                      > //Walt: "Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260
                                      > begins in 70AD."//
                                      >

                                      >

                                      >
                                      > Nor would the Reformers.  Nor would the Puritans.  Nor would I.
                                      >

                                      >

                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                      > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                                      >
                                      >     * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                      >       http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
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                                    • keith dotzler
                                      So you would have us believe the 1260 years of persecution, torture, and murder at the hands of the little horn/beast from the sea ended at the birth of John
                                      Message 18 of 18 , Jun 17, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        So you would have us believe the 1260 years of persecution, torture, and murder at the hands of the little horn/beast from the sea ended at the birth of John Wycliffe?  
                                         
                                        Wycliffe wasn't even born in 1330...he was born in 1324!  
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: 6/17/2005 9:37:22 AM
                                        Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                                        The Morningstar of the Reformation was born, and in 1360 AD (1290 years after 70 AD) began his public ministry. 

                                         

                                        - Parnell McCarter

                                        www.puritans.net

                                         

                                         


                                        From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of keith dotzler
                                        Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2005 7:17 PM
                                        To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                                         

                                         

                                        "Historicists who believe the 1260/1290 began in the first century  and
                                        lasted 1260/1290 years..."

                                         

                                        So what great event transpired in 1330 A.D.?

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        ----- Original Message -----

                                        Sent: 6/16/2005 8:01:00 AM

                                        Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                                         

                                        Hi, Walt.  Let me know if you ever make it down to GR, and we can get
                                        together.

                                        Preterists interpret the 1260/1290 days as literal days, and not according
                                        to the day-year principle of historicists. 

                                        Historicists who believe the 1260/1290 began in the first century  and
                                        lasted 1260/1290 years (like me and the Geneva Bible commentators) believe
                                        the Rev 13 beast is the pagan-to-papal Roman empire , whose superpower status
                                        ended with the Protestant Reformation.

                                        IMO the current superpower of the world is not Romish but secularist, though
                                        I think the secularist beast will be replaced for a short season by a
                                        reinvigorated Romish beast.

                                        But we must keep in mind many of these finer points (like whether the 1260
                                        years began in the first century or 8th century) are not confessional
                                        matters. 

                                        - Parnell

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                        personalwg@...
                                        Sent: Wednesday, June 15, 2005 11:23 AM
                                        To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.

                                        The majority of those who believe that the 1260/1290 period begins
                                        around 70AD would do so as they believe Nero is the little horn of
                                        Daniel, and not the Papacy.  A lot of preterists and partial preterists
                                        will focus their major events around Nero, and I really believe that
                                        explaining to them Dan.7:23-27 by replacing Nero with little horn and it
                                        makes it difficult from Scripture.
                                        Further, when the Book of Revelation talks about "shortly come to pass",
                                        the succession of the seals, trumpets and vials cannot easily be lumped
                                        into the destruction of Jerusalem around 70AD.  Some believe that
                                        "shortly come to pass" means "*begin* to appear in history" and
                                        therefore to force everything into and around the 70AD period is not
                                        contextually possible.

                                        70AD was certainly one of the most significant periods in Scripture and
                                        history, but it seems to me that the 1260 begins later where the Papacy
                                        becomes the focal point of Antichrist, the little horn and ultimate
                                        focus of judgment with the civil beast at the 1290 period.  From here
                                        the "beginning" of the restoration of the jews will take place up to the
                                        1335 period (45 years) prior to the millennium period (which may or may
                                        not be 1,000 years, but it is likely using a literal interpretation).

                                        Anyhow, I look forward to more ministers writing and preaching on this
                                        subject in the future, and hope that it will be a blessing to the elect
                                        witnesses with hope.

                                        Thanks Parnell for your comments.  Long time no chat...I look forward to
                                        visiting with you again one day in GR.

                                        Walt.

                                        J. Parnell McCarter wrote:

                                        > There have always been differences among reformed on this issue of
                                        > when the 1260/1290 years began, and it is not so plain as to rise to
                                        > the level of being a confessional issue.
                                        >

                                        >
                                        > I would only add that the Geneva Bible says the 1260 years began in 30
                                        > AD, which is not so long before my view of 70 AD.
                                        >

                                        >
                                        > And there are others I have read that agree with my view of 70 AD.
                                        >

                                        >
                                        > - Parnell McCarter
                                        >

                                        >
                                        > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > *From:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                        > [mailto:covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com] *On Behalf Of
                                        > *keith dotzler
                                        > *Sent:* Tuesday, June 14, 2005 10:05 PM
                                        > *To:* covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                        > *Subject:* Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Order of Events.
                                        >

                                        >

                                        >
                                        > //Walt: "Therefore, I would not agree with Parnell that the 1260
                                        > begins in 70AD."//
                                        >

                                        >

                                        >
                                        > Nor would the Reformers.  Nor would the Puritans.  Nor would I.
                                        >

                                        >

                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
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