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Re: Reformation continuing at APURITANSMIND.COM

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  • gmw
    ... Try getting him to admit the Pope is THE antichrist. Just a quick update. Dr. McMahon was kind enough to respond to my own question, which was Are you
    Message 1 of 52 , Jun 8, 2005
      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
      <kdotz@e...> wrote:

      > He will always tell you that he believes the Pope is ANTI-CHRIST.
      Try > getting him to admit the Pope is THE antichrist.

      Just a quick update. Dr. McMahon was kind enough to respond to my own
      question, which was "Are you convinced that the Confession's statement
      on the Pope is true, that the Pope is THE predicted Antichrist, THAT
      Man of Sin?"

      His response, "I would hold that the Antichrist is the seat of the
      papacy. I see no reason in my studies thus far to change that. So I
      would agree with the WCF on that point."

      There was, of course, more in our interaction, but I just thought this
      bit might be of interest.

      He also said that he's working through Covenanter issues, and desired
      a local congregation that held to Covenanter views. Cool.

    • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
      sk, Dear Ben, and other members of this forum offended by Iconbuster.com and unwilling to stand with Keith You mis-represent my brothers here. They did not
      Message 52 of 52 , Jun 27, 2005

        "Dear Ben, and other members of this forum offended by
        Iconbuster.com and unwilling to stand with Keith"

        You mis-represent my brothers here. They did not say that they do
        not agree with the WCF and the identity of the Anti-Christ, but did
        state that they did not like Keith's tone or how he came across
        towards someone that appears to many to be reforming in the right

        SK, you commit a serious fallacy here, bro. I can agree with Luther
        that the Pope is the Anti-Christ and bash Luther for his popish
        belief concerning the Lord's Supper, I stand with him on the one and
        not on the other. Ben and the rest may stand with Keith on the
        identity of the Pope, but cannot stand with him on the way he
        presents himself with a seemingly uncharitable approach, as many in
        this forum perceived it.

        (now Ben if I mis-state here, I apologize).

        As for "offensive" material, well we in the RPNA are always accused
        of that! Nothing new! I rather find Iconbusters rather
        entertaining and useful, as one bit of information among many
        others, that are also very useful ( for example I enjoy
        www.answersingenesis.org for their outstanding materials in our
        battle against the evil of evolution...they even promote Greg
        Bahnsen's book "A Ready Defense" as The apologetic book to get!!).

        The ID of the Anti-Christ is not the end of theology, my friends,
        nor the foundation of theology. Way much more to theology and
        biblical study than the ID of the Anti-Christ...

        SK, I hope you do not doubt my brethren's Christian profession just
        because they don't come across and bashing and pulverizing McMahon
        for not seeing who Anti-Christ really is...for IF you do, well bro,
        you lack serious maturity and are so fatally obessesed about the
        Papacy and Anti-Christ, that you be in sin because of it.

        Salvation is by faith in Christ alone, not whether you believe the
        Pope to be Anti-Christ or not. NO where in Scripture does it ever,
        ever state or even hint of such a thing. Maybe some Reformers said
        this, but not the Word of God.

        One may have an incorrect view of Predestination, yet understand one
        thing: Christ alone is their only righteousness and hope of eternal
        life, nothing found in them or that they can do, I would call such a
        person an adopted son of God and sealed by the Holy Spirit, even if
        he had some mis-understanding of Predestination, due to some
        weekness of his to grasp it, as long as he held to Christ alone, I
        would not bash him to smitherings...

        Above all Charity...

        Solo Fide en Sola Christus.

        Edgar Ibarra
        who believes whole-heartedly that
        the Papacy is The Anti-Christ.

        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Lettermen2@a...
        > In a message dated 6/11/2005 7:15:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
        > benhartmail@y... writes:
        > John,
        > Thanks for saying to Keith what I wanted to say. You said it way
        nicer than
        > I would've.
        > That said...
        > Keith,
        > 3 Questions for you:
        > If it is true 'to know Christ is to know Anti-Christ' (and other
        > concepts you produced ad nauseum,)
        > 1 - How can there be a being-well being distinction which
        encompasses the RC
        > Church? Doesn't this teach that there are true Christians even
        in 'that
        > Papal whore' ruled over by 'AntiChrist' himself?
        > 2 - How can Christ tell *his* people (covenant language there
        buddy,) to
        > come out from the beast? If to know Christ is to know antiChrist,
        and they are
        > in the seat of the beast, how can they be truly his people.
        > 3 - Did God's old covenant people know antichrist? Surely some
        knew Christ;
        > but did those who knew Christ know antichrist?
        > As an aside - I don't know if you and the gentleman who maintain
        > website consider yourselves covenanters or not, but either way, I
        think it's people
        > who have attitudes and hold unncessarily offensive positions
        (like you do)
        > that turns a lot of people off to us. To take such a dogmatic
        stance that
        > comes off arrogant isn't building any bridges but makes you sound
        like you're
        > pontificating. Sure the truth is important, but so are the
        people to whom your
        > bringing it.
        > How much interaction do you have with other Christians outside of
        > forums? (just curious)
        > Pax,
        > Ben
        > Dear Ben, and other members of this forum offended by
        Iconbuster.com and
        > unwilling to stand with Keith,
        > Are Mr. Winburn and his associates at Iconbusters.com to be
        censured for
        > posting "offensive" material on The Internet? We DO NOT think so.
        We stand with
        > them wholeheartedly, and commend them for their courage in the
        face of a
        > disturbingly effeminate, institutionalized denominationalism,
        that "kisses the
        > hand" of the enemies of Christ [by their "Pollyanna" relationship
        > Antichrist] or are merely heretical [Pentecostals, Arminian
        Fundamentalists, TV
        > evangelists, and so forth, and so on, through all the damnable
        heresies masquerading
        > as historic, orthodox, Christianity today].
        > <P>
        > <BLOCKQUOTE>"He who is sitting in the heavens doth laugh, The
        Lord doth mock
        > at them." (Psalms 2:4, YLT)
        > <P>
        > "He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them
        > derision." (Psalms 2:4, KJV)</BLOCKQUOTE>
        > <B>Related verses:</B>
        > <P>
        > "The Lord doth laugh at him, For He hath seen that his day
        cometh." (Psalms
        > 37:13, YLT)
        > <P>
        > "There they feared a fear -- there was no fear, For God hath
        scattered the
        > bones of him Who is encamping against thee, Thou hast put to
        shame, For God
        > hath despised them." (Psalms 53:5, YLT)
        > <P>
        > "And Thou, O Jehovah dost laugh at them, Thou dost mock at all
        the nations."
        > (Psalms 59:8, YLT)
        > <P>
        > "This [is] the word that Jehovah spake concerning him: `Trampled
        on thee --
        > laughed at thee, Hath the virgin daughter of Zion Behind thee
        shaken the head
        > -- Hath the daughter of Jerusalem?" (2 Kings 19:21, YLT)
        > <P>
        > "I also in your calamity do laugh, I deride when your fear
        > (Proverbs 1:26, YLT)
        > <P>
        > <B>Commentary on Psalms 2:4 from THE TREASURY OF DAVID</B>
        > <P>
        > <BLOCKQUOTE>Verse 4. Let us now turn our eyes from the wicked
        > counsel-chamber and raging tumult of man, to the secret place of
        the majesty of the Most
        > High. What doth God say? What will the King do unto the men who
        reject his
        > only-begotten Son, the Heir of all things?<BR>
        > Mark the quiet dignity of the Omnipotent One, and the contempt
        which he
        > pours upon the princes and their raging people. He has not taken
        the trouble to
        > rise up and do battle with them -- he despises them, he knows how
        absurd, how
        > irrational, how futile are their attempts against him -- he
        therefore laughs
        > at them. -- C.H. Spurgeon
        > <P>
        > Verses 1-4. Herod, the fox, plotted against Christ, to hinder the
        course of
        > his ministry and mediatorship, but he could not perform his
        enterprise; 'tis
        > so all along, therefore it is said, "Why do the heathen imagine a
        vain thing?"
        > A vain thing, because a thing successless, their hands could not
        perform it.
        > It was vain, not only because there was no true ground of reason
        why they
        > should imagine or do such a thing, but vain also because they
        laboured in vain,
        > they could not do it, and therefore it follows, "He that sitteth
        in the
        > heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision." The
        Lord sees what
        > fools they are, and men (yea, themselves) shall see it. The
        prophet gives us a
        > elegant description to this purpose. Isaiah 59:5, 6. "They weave
        the spider's
        > web . . . Their webs shall not become garments, neither shall
        they cover
        > themselves with their works." As if he had said, they have been
        devising and
        > setting things in a goodly frame to catch flies; they have been
        spinning a fine
        > thread out of their brains, as the spider doth out of her bowels;
        such is
        > their web, but when they have their web they cannot cut it out,
        or make it up
        > into a garment. They shall go naked and cold, notwithstanding all
        > spinning and weaving, all their plotting and devising. The next
        broom that comes
        > will sweep away all their webs and the spiders too, except they
        creep apace. God
        > loves and delights to cross worldly proverbs and worldly craft.
        > Caryl, 1647.
        > <P>
        > Verse 4. "He that sitteth in the heavens." Hereby it is clearly
        > (1) that the Lord is far above all their malice and power, (2)
        that he seeth
        > all their plots, looking down on all; (3) that he is of
        omnipotent power, and
        > so can do with his enemies as he lists. "Our God is in the
        heavens: he hath
        > done whatsoever he pleased." Psalm 115:3. Arthur Jackson, 1643.
        > <P>
        > Verse 4. "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh," etc.
        Sinners' follies
        > are the just sport of God's infinite wisdom and power; and those
        attempts of
        > the kingdom of Satan, which in our eyes are formidable, in his
        > despicable. Matthew Henry.
        > Verse 4. "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh." They scoff
        at us, God
        > laughs at them. Laugh? This seems a hard word at the first view:
        are the
        > injuries of his saints, the cruelties of their enemies, the
        derision, the
        > persecution of all that are round about us, no more but matter of
        laughter? Severe
        > Cato thought that laughter did not become the gravity of Roman
        consuls; that
        > it is a diminution of states, as another told princes, and it is
        > to the Majesty of heaven? According to our capacities, the
        prophet describes
        > God, as ourselves would be in a merry disposition, deriding vain
        attempts. He
        > laughs, but it is in scorn; he scorns, but it is with vengeance.
        > imagined that by drowning the Israelite males, he had found a way
        to root their
        > name from the earth; but when at the same time, his own daughter,
        in his own
        > court gave princely education to Moses, their deliverer, did not
        God Laugh?<BR>
        > Short is the joy of the wicked. Is Dagon put up to his place
        again? God's
        > smile shall take off his head and his hands, and leave him
        neither wit to guide
        > nor power to subsist. . . . . We may not judge of God's works
        until the
        > fifth act: the case, deplorable and desperate in outward
        appearance, may with one
        > smile from heaven find a blessed issue. He permitted his temple
        to be sacked
        > and rifled, the holy vessels to be profaned and caroused in; but
        did not
        > God's smile make Belshazzar to tremble at the handwriting on the
        wall? Oh, what
        > are his frowns, if his smiles be so terrible! Thomas Adams.
        > <P>
        > Verse 4. The expression, "He that sitteth in the heavens," at once
        fixes our
        > thoughts on a being infinitely exalted above man, who is of the
        > earthy. And when it is said, "HE shall laugh," this word is
        designed to convey to
        > our minds the idea, that the greatest confederacies amongst kings
        > peoples, and their most extensive and vigorous preparations, to
        defeat HIS purposes
        > or to injure HIS servants, are in HIS sight altogether
        insignificant and
        > worthless. HE looks upon their poor and puny efforts, not only
        without uneasiness
        > or fear, but HE laughs at their folly; HE treats their impotency
        > derision. He knows how HE can crush them like a moth when HE
        pleases, or consume
        > them in a moment with the breath of HIS mouth. How profitable it
        is for us to be
        > reminded of truths such as these! Ah! it is indeed "a vain thing"
        for the
        > potsherds of the earth to strive with the glorious Majesty of
        Heaven. David
        > Pitcairn.
        > <P>
        > Verse 4. "The Lord," in Hebrew, Adonai, mystically signifieth my
        stays, or
        > my sustainersâ€"my pillars. Our English word "Lord" hath much the
        same force,
        > being contracted of the old Saxon word "Llaford," or "Hlafford,"
        which cometh
        > from "Laef," to sustain, refresh, cherish. Henry Ainsworth.
        > <P>
        > Verse 4. "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh at them: the
        Lord shall
        > have them in derision." This tautology or repetition of the same
        > which is frequent in the Scriptures, is a sign of the thing being
        > according to the authority of the patriarch Joseph (Genesis
        41:32), where,
        > having interpreted the dreams of Pharaoh, he said, "and for that
        the dream was
        > doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is established
        by God, and
        > God will shortly bring it to pass." And therefore, here
        also, "shall laugh at
        > them," and "shall have them in derision," is a repetition to show
        that there
        > is not a doubt to be entertained that all these things will most
        surely come
        > to pass. And the gracious Spirit does all this for our comfort
        > consolation, that we may not faint under temptation, but lift up
        our heads with the
        > most certain hope; because, "he that shall come will come, and
        will not tarry."
        > Hebrews 10:37. Martin Luther.
        > <P>
        > v. 4 [and 5]. He is in the heaven, a place of such a vast prospect
        that he
        > can oversee them all and all their projects; and such is his power
        that he can
        > overcome them all and all their attempts. He sits there, as one
        easy and at
        > rest, out of the reach of all their impotent menaces and attempts.
        There he
        > sits as Judge in all the affairs of the children of men,
        perfectly secure of
        > the full accomplishment of all his own purposes and designs, in
        spite of all
        > opposition, Ps. 29:10. The perfect repose of the Eternal Mind may
        be our
        > comfort under all the disquietments of our mind. We are tossed on
        earth, and in the
        > sea, but he sits in the heavens, where he has prepared his throne
        > judgment; and therefore, 1. The attempts of Christ's enemies are
        easily ridiculed.
        > God laughs at them as a company of fools. He has them, and all
        > attempts, in derision, and therefore the virgin, the daughter of
        Zion, has despised
        > them, Isa. 37:22. Sinners' follies are the just sport of God's
        infinite wisdom
        > and power; and those attempts of the kingdom of Satan which in
        our eyes are
        > formidable in his are despicable. Sometimes God is said to awake,
        and arise,
        > and stir up himself, for the vanquishing of his enemies; here is
        said to sit
        > still and vanquish them; for the utmost operations of God's
        > create no difficulty at all, nor the least disturbance to his
        eternal rest. 2.
        > They are justly punished, v. 5. Though God despises them as
        impotent, yet he
        > does not therefore wink at them, but is justly displeased with
        them as impudent
        > and impious, and will make the most daring sinners to know that
        he is so and
        > to tremble before him. (1.) Their sin is a provocation to him. He
        is wroth;
        > he is sorely displeased. We cannot expect that God should be
        reconciled to
        > us, or well pleased in us, but in and through the anointed; and
        therefore, if
        > we affront and reject him, we sin against the remedy and forfeit
        the benefit
        > of his interposition between us and God. (2.) His anger will be a
        vexation to
        > them; if he but speak to them in his wrath, even the breath of
        his mouth will
        > be their confusion, slaughter, and consumption, Isa. 11:4; 2 Th.
        2:8. He
        > speaks, and it is done; he speaks in wrath, and sinners are
        undone. As a word
        > made us, so a word can unmake us again. Who knows the power of
        his anger? The
        > enemies rage, but cannot vex God. God sits still, and yet vexes
        them, puts
        > them into a consternation (as the word is), and brings them to
        their wits' end:
        > his setting up this kingdom of his Son, in spite of them, is the
        > vexation to them that can be. They were vexatious to Christ's
        good subjects; but
        > the day is coming when vexation shall be recompensed to them. 3.
        They are
        > certainly defeated, and all their counsels turned headlong. --
        > Henry</BLOCKQUOTE>
        > <P>
        > Sincerely,
        > sk
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