Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Reformation continuing at APURITANSMIND.COM
- He seems to quote with approbation several authors (including the
Westminster Confession) which do refer to the Pope as THE Antichrist.
And don't worry... I pretty much beware of everyone!
keith dotzler wrote:
> /"I've watched from a distance this man's gradual reformation. Gotta
> like the direction he's going in. As well as adding many articles by
> Rutherfurd and Gillespie to A Puritan's Mind, *and apparently coming
> around on the Pope being Antichrist....."
> Well, there's one way to find out, Gerry. Ask him these questions,
> which I asked of him last year:
> 1) Who/what is the beast that rose out of the sea, in Rev 13?
> 2) Who/what is the man of sin of 2 Thes 2?
> 3) Who/what is the little horn of Daniel 9?
> 4) Who/what is Mystery, Babylon the Great of Rev 17?
> 5) Who/what is the beast that rose out of the earth, in Rev 13?
> 6) Who/what is the "let" of 2 Thes 2?
> 7) Who/what are the Locusts of Rev 9?
> 8) Who/what are the two witnesses of Rev 11?
> 9) What is the mark, name, and number of the beast, in Rev 13?
> Here were his answers:
> 1) Devil - the hand of the devil
> 2) Antichristian government or pressures in the world
> 3) Antichrist government or pressures in the world
> 4) Possibly the Roman Catholic Church (see WCF)
> 5) Devil - the wisdom of the devil
> 6) "no one", then the Antichristian influences
> 7) The power and influences of hell over wicked men
> 8) The church militant - the preaching of the word and sacraments
> 9) Unregenerate influences against the church
> He will always tell you that he believes the Pope is ANTI-CHRIST. Try
> getting him to admit the Pope is _*THE*_ antichrist. Better yet, see
> if he will now retract the following statement, which he made to me
> during our e-mail discussion:
> */...We will have to "see" who may be the "one" "giant" Antichrist,
> that man of sin, when he arises to the scene./*
> If you read his article regarding the Pope being in hell, you will
> notice that nowhere in it does he come out and say that the Pope is
> THE antichrist, THE man of sin, THE little horn, or THE beast.
> Beware of him.
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"Dear Ben, and other members of this forum offended by
Iconbuster.com and unwilling to stand with Keith"
You mis-represent my brothers here. They did not say that they do
not agree with the WCF and the identity of the Anti-Christ, but did
state that they did not like Keith's tone or how he came across
towards someone that appears to many to be reforming in the right
SK, you commit a serious fallacy here, bro. I can agree with Luther
that the Pope is the Anti-Christ and bash Luther for his popish
belief concerning the Lord's Supper, I stand with him on the one and
not on the other. Ben and the rest may stand with Keith on the
identity of the Pope, but cannot stand with him on the way he
presents himself with a seemingly uncharitable approach, as many in
this forum perceived it.
(now Ben if I mis-state here, I apologize).
As for "offensive" material, well we in the RPNA are always accused
of that! Nothing new! I rather find Iconbusters rather
entertaining and useful, as one bit of information among many
others, that are also very useful ( for example I enjoy
www.answersingenesis.org for their outstanding materials in our
battle against the evil of evolution...they even promote Greg
Bahnsen's book "A Ready Defense" as The apologetic book to get!!).
The ID of the Anti-Christ is not the end of theology, my friends,
nor the foundation of theology. Way much more to theology and
biblical study than the ID of the Anti-Christ...
SK, I hope you do not doubt my brethren's Christian profession just
because they don't come across and bashing and pulverizing McMahon
for not seeing who Anti-Christ really is...for IF you do, well bro,
you lack serious maturity and are so fatally obessesed about the
Papacy and Anti-Christ, that you be in sin because of it.
Salvation is by faith in Christ alone, not whether you believe the
Pope to be Anti-Christ or not. NO where in Scripture does it ever,
ever state or even hint of such a thing. Maybe some Reformers said
this, but not the Word of God.
One may have an incorrect view of Predestination, yet understand one
thing: Christ alone is their only righteousness and hope of eternal
life, nothing found in them or that they can do, I would call such a
person an adopted son of God and sealed by the Holy Spirit, even if
he had some mis-understanding of Predestination, due to some
weekness of his to grasp it, as long as he held to Christ alone, I
would not bash him to smitherings...
Above all Charity...
Solo Fide en Sola Christus.
who believes whole-heartedly that
the Papacy is The Anti-Christ.
--- In email@example.com, Lettermen2@a...
> In a message dated 6/11/2005 7:15:11 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
> benhartmail@y... writes:
> Thanks for saying to Keith what I wanted to say. You said it way
> I would've.cognate
> That said...
> 3 Questions for you:
> If it is true 'to know Christ is to know Anti-Christ' (and other
> concepts you produced ad nauseum,)encompasses the RC
> 1 - How can there be a being-well being distinction which
> Church? Doesn't this teach that there are true Christians evenin 'that
> Papal whore' ruled over by 'AntiChrist' himself?buddy,) to
> 2 - How can Christ tell *his* people (covenant language there
> come out from the beast? If to know Christ is to know antiChrist,and they are
> in the seat of the beast, how can they be truly his people.knew Christ;
> 3 - Did God's old covenant people know antichrist? Surely some
> but did those who knew Christ know antichrist?that
> As an aside - I don't know if you and the gentleman who maintain
> website consider yourselves covenanters or not, but either way, Ithink it's people
> who have attitudes and hold unncessarily offensive positions(like you do)
> that turns a lot of people off to us. To take such a dogmaticstance that
> comes off arrogant isn't building any bridges but makes you soundlike you're
> pontificating. Sure the truth is important, but so are thepeople to whom your
> bringing it.internet
> How much interaction do you have with other Christians outside of
> forums? (just curious)Iconbuster.com and
> Dear Ben, and other members of this forum offended by
> unwilling to stand with Keith,censured for
> Are Mr. Winburn and his associates at Iconbusters.com to be
> posting "offensive" material on The Internet? We DO NOT think so.We stand with
> them wholeheartedly, and commend them for their courage in theface of a
> disturbingly effeminate, institutionalized denominationalism,that "kisses the
> hand" of the enemies of Christ [by their "Pollyanna" relationshipto
> Antichrist] or are merely heretical [Pentecostals, ArminianFundamentalists, TV
> evangelists, and so forth, and so on, through all the damnableheresies masquerading
> as historic, orthodox, Christianity today].Lord doth mock
> <BLOCKQUOTE>"He who is sitting in the heavens doth laugh, The
> at them." (Psalms 2:4, YLT)in
> "He who sits in the heavens shall laugh; The Lord shall hold them
> derision." (Psalms 2:4, KJV)</BLOCKQUOTE>cometh." (Psalms
> <B>Related verses:</B>
> "The Lord doth laugh at him, For He hath seen that his day
> 37:13, YLT)scattered the
> "There they feared a fear -- there was no fear, For God hath
> bones of him Who is encamping against thee, Thou hast put toshame, For God
> hath despised them." (Psalms 53:5, YLT)the nations."
> "And Thou, O Jehovah dost laugh at them, Thou dost mock at all
> (Psalms 59:8, YLT)on thee --
> "This [is] the word that Jehovah spake concerning him: `Trampled
> laughed at thee, Hath the virgin daughter of Zion Behind theeshaken the head
> -- Hath the daughter of Jerusalem?" (2 Kings 19:21, YLT)cometh,"
> "I also in your calamity do laugh, I deride when your fear
> (Proverbs 1:26, YLT)the majesty of the Most
> <B>Commentary on Psalms 2:4 from THE TREASURY OF DAVID</B>
> <BLOCKQUOTE>Verse 4. Let us now turn our eyes from the wicked
> counsel-chamber and raging tumult of man, to the secret place of
> High. What doth God say? What will the King do unto the men whoreject his
> only-begotten Son, the Heir of all things?<BR>which he
> Mark the quiet dignity of the Omnipotent One, and the contempt
> pours upon the princes and their raging people. He has not takenthe trouble to
> rise up and do battle with them -- he despises them, he knows howabsurd, how
> irrational, how futile are their attempts against him -- hetherefore laughs
> at them. -- C.H. Spurgeoncourse of
> Verses 1-4. Herod, the fox, plotted against Christ, to hinder the
> his ministry and mediatorship, but he could not perform hisenterprise; 'tis
> so all along, therefore it is said, "Why do the heathen imagine avain thing?"
> A vain thing, because a thing successless, their hands could notperform it.
> It was vain, not only because there was no true ground of reasonwhy they
> should imagine or do such a thing, but vain also because theylaboured in vain,
> they could not do it, and therefore it follows, "He that sittethin the
> heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision." TheLord sees what
> fools they are, and men (yea, themselves) shall see it. Theprophet gives us a
> elegant description to this purpose. Isaiah 59:5, 6. "They weavethe spider's
> web . . . Their webs shall not become garments, neither shallthey cover
> themselves with their works." As if he had said, they have beendevising and
> setting things in a goodly frame to catch flies; they have beenspinning a fine
> thread out of their brains, as the spider doth out of her bowels;such is
> their web, but when they have their web they cannot cut it out,or make it up
> into a garment. They shall go naked and cold, notwithstanding alltheir
> spinning and weaving, all their plotting and devising. The nextbroom that comes
> will sweep away all their webs and the spiders too, except theycreep apace. God
> loves and delights to cross worldly proverbs and worldly craft.Joseph
> Caryl, 1647.intimated,
> Verse 4. "He that sitteth in the heavens." Hereby it is clearly
> (1) that the Lord is far above all their malice and power, (2)that he seeth
> all their plots, looking down on all; (3) that he is ofomnipotent power, and
> so can do with his enemies as he lists. "Our God is in theheavens: he hath
> done whatsoever he pleased." Psalm 115:3. Arthur Jackson, 1643.Sinners' follies
> Verse 4. "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh," etc.
> are the just sport of God's infinite wisdom and power; and thoseattempts of
> the kingdom of Satan, which in our eyes are formidable, in hisare
> despicable. Matthew Henry.at us, God
> Verse 4. "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh." They scoff
> laughs at them. Laugh? This seems a hard word at the first view:are the
> injuries of his saints, the cruelties of their enemies, thederision, the
> persecution of all that are round about us, no more but matter oflaughter? Severe
> Cato thought that laughter did not become the gravity of Romanconsuls; that
> it is a diminution of states, as another told princes, and it isattributed
> to the Majesty of heaven? According to our capacities, theprophet describes
> God, as ourselves would be in a merry disposition, deriding vainattempts. He
> laughs, but it is in scorn; he scorns, but it is with vengeance.Pharaoh
> imagined that by drowning the Israelite males, he had found a wayto root their
> name from the earth; but when at the same time, his own daughter,in his own
> court gave princely education to Moses, their deliverer, did notGod Laugh?<BR>
> Short is the joy of the wicked. Is Dagon put up to his placeagain? God's
> smile shall take off his head and his hands, and leave himneither wit to guide
> nor power to subsist. . . . . We may not judge of God's worksuntil the
> fifth act: the case, deplorable and desperate in outwardappearance, may with one
> smile from heaven find a blessed issue. He permitted his templeto be sacked
> and rifled, the holy vessels to be profaned and caroused in; butdid not
> God's smile make Belshazzar to tremble at the handwriting on thewall? Oh, what
> are his frowns, if his smiles be so terrible! Thomas Adams.fixes our
> Verse 4. The expression, "He that sitteth in the heavens," at once
> thoughts on a being infinitely exalted above man, who is of theearth,
> earthy. And when it is said, "HE shall laugh," this word isdesigned to convey to
> our minds the idea, that the greatest confederacies amongst kingsand
> peoples, and their most extensive and vigorous preparations, todefeat HIS purposes
> or to injure HIS servants, are in HIS sight altogetherinsignificant and
> worthless. HE looks upon their poor and puny efforts, not onlywithout uneasiness
> or fear, but HE laughs at their folly; HE treats their impotencywith
> derision. He knows how HE can crush them like a moth when HEpleases, or consume
> them in a moment with the breath of HIS mouth. How profitable itis for us to be
> reminded of truths such as these! Ah! it is indeed "a vain thing"for the
> potsherds of the earth to strive with the glorious Majesty ofHeaven. David
> Pitcairn.stays, or
> Verse 4. "The Lord," in Hebrew, Adonai, mystically signifieth my
> my sustainersâ"my pillars. Our English word "Lord" hath much thesame force,
> being contracted of the old Saxon word "Llaford," or "Hlafford,"which cometh
> from "Laef," to sustain, refresh, cherish. Henry Ainsworth.Lord shall
> Verse 4. "He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh at them: the
> have them in derision." This tautology or repetition of the samething,
> which is frequent in the Scriptures, is a sign of the thing beingestablished:
> according to the authority of the patriarch Joseph (Genesis41:32), where,
> having interpreted the dreams of Pharaoh, he said, "and for thatthe dream was
> doubled unto Pharaoh twice; it is because the thing is establishedby God, and
> God will shortly bring it to pass." And therefore, herealso, "shall laugh at
> them," and "shall have them in derision," is a repetition to showthat there
> is not a doubt to be entertained that all these things will mostsurely come
> to pass. And the gracious Spirit does all this for our comfortand
> consolation, that we may not faint under temptation, but lift upour heads with the
> most certain hope; because, "he that shall come will come, andwill not tarry."
> Hebrews 10:37. Martin Luther.that he
> v. 4 [and 5]. He is in the heaven, a place of such a vast prospect
> can oversee them all and all their projects; and such is his powerthat he can
> overcome them all and all their attempts. He sits there, as oneeasy and at
> rest, out of the reach of all their impotent menaces and attempts.There he
> sits as Judge in all the affairs of the children of men,perfectly secure of
> the full accomplishment of all his own purposes and designs, inspite of all
> opposition, Ps. 29:10. The perfect repose of the Eternal Mind maybe our
> comfort under all the disquietments of our mind. We are tossed onearth, and in the
> sea, but he sits in the heavens, where he has prepared his thronefor
> judgment; and therefore, 1. The attempts of Christ's enemies areeasily ridiculed.
> God laughs at them as a company of fools. He has them, and alltheir
> attempts, in derision, and therefore the virgin, the daughter ofZion, has despised
> them, Isa. 37:22. Sinners' follies are the just sport of God'sinfinite wisdom
> and power; and those attempts of the kingdom of Satan which inour eyes are
> formidable in his are despicable. Sometimes God is said to awake,and arise,
> and stir up himself, for the vanquishing of his enemies; here issaid to sit
> still and vanquish them; for the utmost operations of God'somnipotence
> create no difficulty at all, nor the least disturbance to hiseternal rest. 2.
> They are justly punished, v. 5. Though God despises them asimpotent, yet he
> does not therefore wink at them, but is justly displeased withthem as impudent
> and impious, and will make the most daring sinners to know thathe is so and
> to tremble before him. (1.) Their sin is a provocation to him. Heis wroth;
> he is sorely displeased. We cannot expect that God should bereconciled to
> us, or well pleased in us, but in and through the anointed; andtherefore, if
> we affront and reject him, we sin against the remedy and forfeitthe benefit
> of his interposition between us and God. (2.) His anger will be avexation to
> them; if he but speak to them in his wrath, even the breath ofhis mouth will
> be their confusion, slaughter, and consumption, Isa. 11:4; 2 Th.2:8. He
> speaks, and it is done; he speaks in wrath, and sinners areundone. As a word
> made us, so a word can unmake us again. Who knows the power ofhis anger? The
> enemies rage, but cannot vex God. God sits still, and yet vexesthem, puts
> them into a consternation (as the word is), and brings them totheir wits' end:
> his setting up this kingdom of his Son, in spite of them, is thegreatest
> vexation to them that can be. They were vexatious to Christ'sgood subjects; but
> the day is coming when vexation shall be recompensed to them. 3.They are
> certainly defeated, and all their counsels turned headlong. --Matthew