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[Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying

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  • Daniel
    Don t the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office of the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the Antichrist inasmuch as he bears the
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 2, 2005
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      Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office of
      the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the Antichrist
      inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?

      If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist then
      each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
      judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he will
      be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
      brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point in
      time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there
      were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
      distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
      before Christ returns.

      It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this wouldn't
      mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which is the
      Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
      Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
      submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is predicted to
      fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while we
      can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray for
      the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.

      I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in there
      popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die before
      they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying the
      fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost (and
      we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I don't
      know enough about this but could it be argued that the process of
      becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of the
      Holy Ghost?
    • keith dotzler
      Daniel, There are problems with your line of reasoning. For example: When you say, This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which the PAPACY
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 2, 2005
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        Daniel,
         
        There are problems with your line of reasoning.  For example:
         
        When you say,
         
        "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into distruction [sic]..."
         
        ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man of sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints and trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's return? 
         
        As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot be destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS.  The men are cast into hell, not the office, which has no soul. 
         
        Keith
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Daniel
        Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
        Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying


        Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office of
        the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the Antichrist
        inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?

        If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist then
        each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
        judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he will
        be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
        brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point in
        time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there
        were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
        distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
        before Christ returns.

        It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this wouldn't
        mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which is the
        Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
        Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
        submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is predicted to
        fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while we
        can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray for
        the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.

        I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in there
        popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die before
        they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying the
        fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost (and
        we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I don't
        know enough about this but could it be argued that the process of
        becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of the
        Holy Ghost?
      • keith dotzler
        Daniel, To elaborate further: 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 3, 2005
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          Daniel,
           
          To elaborate further:
           
          2 Thessalonians 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
           
          2 Thessalonians 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
           
          2 Thessalonians 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
           
          2 Thessalonians 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
           
          2 Thessalonians 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
           
          2 Thessalonians 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
           
           
          To summarize the chronology of events,
           
          1. There will be an apostasy from the faith, from which the man of sin will rise.
          2. This man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above God, sitting in the Temple of God (the Church), shewing himself to be God.
          3. The Thessalonians knew what was withholding the rise of this man of sin, because Paul had told them orally. 
          4. Once the thing that was withholding was removed, the wicked man of sin would be revealed.
          5. This man of sin will be consumed with the Spirit of Christ's mouth, and will be destroyed at his coming.
          Historically, we see that:
          1. It was the Church at Rome that apostatized from Biblical doctrine, allowing doctrines of demons to infect it, leading to the ascendancy of its Bishops to a place of tyrannical power.
          2. It was the Bishop of Rome who exalted himself above God, sitting in the visible Church (the Temple of God), claiming to be Christ's VICAR; nay, God himself (NOTE: the prefix anti means "in the place of," or "to oppose;" hence, the Bishop of Rome, by claiming to be Christ's "VICAR" (which also means "in the place of"), is readily identifying himself as the ANTI-Christ!).
          3. It was the Roman Empire that restrained the rise of the Bishop of Rome (Pope), because the two could not rule from Rome simultaneously.  Once Constantine moved the seat of the Empire to Byzantium (creating Constantinople) in 333, and after persecuting Christians was outlawed via the Edict of Milan in 313, and after the Bishop of Rome was "granted" sovereignty over the Latin and Italian territories via the fictitious "Donation" of Constantine, and once the Roman Empire was divided into 10 kingdoms (ten toes) via Barbarian invasions in the late 5th century, the Bishop's rise to all-powerful supremacy became inevitable.
          4. The saints throughout history recognized the mutation that occurred after the Empire was moved East, wherein the once humble pastors of the Church at Rome morphed into power-hungry, tyrannical, idolatrous, murderous Popes.  The early Church Fathers also knew that the man of sin would rise once the Empire fell, which is why they prayed for its continued existence.
          5. Therefore, (A) as the "let" was the Roman Empire that was "taken out of the way" in 333 A.D.; and (B) as Christians for centuries have recognized the man of sin to be the Bishops who ascended the Roman throne after the Empire's removal; and (C) as the mark of the beast, (D) the worshipping of the beast's image, (E) the murdering of the saints have all been going on for centuries; the consuming and destroying, then, with which the Beast and false prophet are met at Christ's coming, cannot refer to just ONE Pope and ONE false prophet, nor to their soul-less "offices," but to the entire succession of men. 
           
          "And the beast [a.k.a. man of sin, a.k.a. little horn, a.k.a. the Antichrist] was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
           
          See also Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's image, wherein ONE represents MANY.
           
           
          Keith
           
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: 4/3/2005 12:32:09 AM
          Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying

          Daniel,
           
          There are problems with your line of reasoning.  For example:
           
          When you say,
           
          "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into distruction [sic]..."
           
          ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man of sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints and trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's return? 
           
          As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot be destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS.  The men are cast into hell, not the office, which has no soul. 
           
          Keith
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Daniel
          Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
          Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying


          Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office of
          the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the Antichrist
          inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?

          If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist then
          each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
          judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he will
          be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
          brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point in
          time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there
          were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
          distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
          before Christ returns.

          It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this wouldn't
          mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which is the
          Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
          Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
          submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is predicted to
          fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while we
          can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray for
          the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.

          I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in there
          popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die before
          they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying the
          fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost (and
          we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I don't
          know enough about this but could it be argued that the process of
          becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of the
          Holy Ghost?

        • Daniel
          Keith, Thanks for your responce. I fully believe in what you are saying regarding the fact that often in prophesy one represents many. Like the word king can
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 3, 2005
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            Keith,

            Thanks for your responce. I fully believe in what you are saying
            regarding the fact that often in prophesy one represents many. Like
            the word king can refer to a line of kings. And I used to say that it
            is just the papacy but what I actually believe now is similar but I
            would go even furthur and say that, yes, the individual popes are the
            Antichrist but only inasmuch as they bear that office. So it is the
            individuals and the office not one or the other.

            Those arguements you listed about why the pope is the Antichrist are
            very solid and I agree with them (although I am not as well informed
            on it as you because some of the points you mentioned were new and
            interesting so I will try to remember them). I don't have any problem
            with your arguement that the pope is the Antichrist because I agree.
            I am a historicist too.

            As for the fact that the Beast will be thrown into the lake of fire,
            that is an interesting point. But if the pope repented from being the
            pope, he would no longer be the Antichrist. This is analogous to the
            vice lists in which it would be said that idolators and fornicators
            and so forth will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Although this is
            not a prophesy like Revelation, it has the same force in that
            anything the Bible says will come true. But does this mean that if
            someone is presently an idolator, he will never repent? The office
            doesn't have a soul but my position is that it isn't just the office
            but individuals who are popes as well as the office inasmuch as they
            hold the office, which means that if they reject the office, they are
            no longer the Antichrist. This understanding, I think does justice to
            the fact that the predicted Antichrist will be eternally tormented in
            hell.

            As for the forty two months, I believe in the day-year principle and
            so I believe that it isn't literal days but that each day equals a
            year as you probably do. I am not fully sure that I understand what
            you mean here so correct me if I answer in a way that indicates that
            I don't. Just because I believe that the decline of the papacy will
            be at one point in history, it would not logically follow that I
            would also believe that the period of persecution would only be three
            and a half literal years. Isn't it natural to think that the papacy
            would do this for 1260 years and then after that come to a decline.
            Although I reject the futurist dispensational approach to prophesy, I
            do not reject that there are some things which are future as all
            historicist would agree.

            Thanks again for your arguements and please tell me if I did not
            understand correctly. I am glad to see a place on the internet like
            this that is not just reformed in the modern sence but that is
            reformed like the actual puritans and reformers.

            In Christ,

            Daniel Drost
          • abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
            Keith, What do we do now that there is no living Pope? Do you believe there is no AntiChrist now? ... day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 3, 2005
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              Keith,

              What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?" Do you believe
              there is no AntiChrist now?


              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
              <kdotz@e...> wrote:
              > Daniel,
              >
              > To elaborate further:
              >
              > 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that
              day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away
              first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
              >
              > 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all
              that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth
              in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
              >
              > 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with
              you, I told you these things?
              >
              > 2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he
              might be revealed in his time.
              >
              > 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already
              work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the
              way.
              >
              > 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom
              the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
              destroy with the brightness of his coming:
              >
              >
              > To summarize the chronology of events,
              >
              > There will be an apostasy from the faith, from which the man of
              sin will rise.
              > This man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above God, sitting
              in the Temple of God (the Church), shewing himself to be God.
              > The Thessalonians knew what was withholding the rise of this man
              of sin, because Paul had told them orally.
              > Once the thing that was withholding was removed, the wicked man of
              sin would be revealed.
              > This man of sin will be consumed with the Spirit of Christ's
              mouth, and will be destroyed at his coming.
              > Historically, we see that:
              > It was the Church at Rome that apostatized from Biblical doctrine,
              allowing doctrines of demons to infect it, leading to the ascendancy
              of its Bishops to a place of tyrannical power.
              > It was the Bishop of Rome who exalted himself above God, sitting
              in the visible Church (the Temple of God), claiming to be Christ's
              VICAR; nay, God himself (NOTE: the prefix anti means "in the place
              of," or "to oppose;" hence, the Bishop of Rome, by claiming to be
              Christ's "VICAR" (which also means "in the place of"), is readily
              identifying himself as the ANTI-Christ!).
              > It was the Roman Empire that restrained the rise of the Bishop of
              Rome (Pope), because the two could not rule from Rome
              simultaneously. Once Constantine moved the seat of the Empire to
              Byzantium (creating Constantinople) in 333, and after persecuting
              Christians was outlawed via the Edict of Milan in 313, and after the
              Bishop of Rome was "granted" sovereignty over the Latin and Italian
              territories via the fictitious "Donation" of Constantine, and once
              the Roman Empire was divided into 10 kingdoms (ten toes) via
              Barbarian invasions in the late 5th century, the Bishop's rise to
              all-powerful supremacy became inevitable.
              > The saints throughout history recognized the mutation that
              occurred after the Empire was moved East, wherein the once humble
              pastors of the Church at Rome morphed into power-hungry, tyrannical,
              idolatrous, murderous Popes. The early Church Fathers also knew
              that the man of sin would rise once the Empire fell, which is why
              they prayed for its continued existence.
              > Therefore, (A) as the "let" was the Roman Empire that was "taken
              out of the way" in 333 A.D.; and (B) as Christians for centuries
              have recognized the man of sin to be the Bishops who ascended the
              Roman throne after the Empire's removal; and (C) as the mark of the
              beast, (D) the worshipping of the beast's image, (E) the murdering
              of the saints have all been going on for centuries; the consuming
              and destroying, then, with which the Beast and false prophet are met
              at Christ's coming, cannot refer to just ONE Pope and ONE false
              prophet, nor to their soul-less "offices," but to the entire
              succession of men.
              >
              > "And the beast [a.k.a. man of sin, a.k.a. little horn, a.k.a. the
              Antichrist] was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought
              miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
              the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These
              both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
              >
              > See also Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's image,
              wherein ONE represents MANY.
              >
              >
              > Keith
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: keith dotzler
              > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: 4/3/2005 12:32:09 AM
              > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
              >
              >
              > Daniel,
              >
              > There are problems with your line of reasoning. For example:
              >
              > When you say,
              >
              > "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which the
              PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some
              resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into distruction
              [sic]..."
              >
              > ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical
              conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man of
              sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints and
              trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a
              literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's
              return?
              >
              > As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot be
              destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS. The men are cast
              into hell, not the office, which has no soul.
              >
              > Keith
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Daniel
              > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
              > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
              >
              >
              >
              > Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office
              of
              > the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the Antichrist
              > inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?
              >
              > If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist
              then
              > each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
              > judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he
              will
              > be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
              > brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point in
              > time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there
              > were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
              > distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
              > before Christ returns.
              >
              > It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this wouldn't
              > mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which is
              the
              > Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
              > Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
              > submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is predicted
              to
              > fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while we
              > can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray
              for
              > the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.
              >
              > I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in
              there
              > popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die
              before
              > they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying
              the
              > fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost
              (and
              > we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I
              don't
              > know enough about this but could it be argued that the process of
              > becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of the
              > Holy Ghost?
              >
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            • Jason Robert Schuiling
              Certainly the Polish man named Karol Jozef Wojtyla(John Paul II) died yesterday, but the Papacy remains alive and well. This is in fact, I believe, one of its
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 3, 2005
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                Certainly the Polish man named Karol Jozef Wojtyla(John Paul II)
                died yesterday, but the Papacy remains alive and well. This is in
                fact, I believe, one of its strongest and most threatening positions
                at this time. Any time there is a Papl vacancy the antichristian
                threat is perhaps at its greatest potential, seeing that a man of
                even greater inert wickedness than the last may fill that office.
                However it seems that at this point in history that threat is
                heightened. John Paul II was by most appearences a 'nice'
                and 'peaceful' man. But he proccurred one thing for the Papacy which
                exponentially increases its terror. No other pope had been as widely
                traveled nor as broadly venerated by hoards of masses as had been
                the most recent pope. JP2 superadded to the Papacy's 'universal
                bishopric' a universal popularity. 'Everybody' loves the pope. If
                ever there has been a time in which Romish prelate has had
                opportunity to exercise universal tyrrany it is now. All it may take
                is a man of charm and cunning to secure credulity and loyalty. We
                MAY see, in my opinion, in this next 'successor of Peter' some of
                the greatest deception and perhaps Papal violence that the world has
                ever known. Kyrie Eleison.



                Jason

                --- In
                covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "abusharmaranthkarimsuntha
                harama" <abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama@y...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Keith,
                >
                > What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?" Do you believe
                > there is no AntiChrist now?
                >
                >
                > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                > <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                > > Daniel,
                > >
                > > To elaborate further:
                > >
                > > 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for
                that
                > day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away
                > first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                > >
                > > 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all
                > that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God
                sitteth
                > in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                > >
                > > 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with
                > you, I told you these things?
                > >
                > > 2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he
                > might be revealed in his time.
                > >
                > > 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already
                > work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of
                the
                > way.
                > >
                > > 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
                whom
                > the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
                > destroy with the brightness of his coming:
                > >
                > >
                > > To summarize the chronology of events,
                > >
                > > There will be an apostasy from the faith, from which the man of
                > sin will rise.
                > > This man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above God, sitting
                > in the Temple of God (the Church), shewing himself to be God.
                > > The Thessalonians knew what was withholding the rise of this man
                > of sin, because Paul had told them orally.
                > > Once the thing that was withholding was removed, the wicked man
                of
                > sin would be revealed.
                > > This man of sin will be consumed with the Spirit of Christ's
                > mouth, and will be destroyed at his coming.
                > > Historically, we see that:
                > > It was the Church at Rome that apostatized from Biblical
                doctrine,
                > allowing doctrines of demons to infect it, leading to the
                ascendancy
                > of its Bishops to a place of tyrannical power.
                > > It was the Bishop of Rome who exalted himself above God, sitting
                > in the visible Church (the Temple of God), claiming to be Christ's
                > VICAR; nay, God himself (NOTE: the prefix anti means "in the place
                > of," or "to oppose;" hence, the Bishop of Rome, by claiming to be
                > Christ's "VICAR" (which also means "in the place of"), is readily
                > identifying himself as the ANTI-Christ!).
                > > It was the Roman Empire that restrained the rise of the Bishop
                of
                > Rome (Pope), because the two could not rule from Rome
                > simultaneously. Once Constantine moved the seat of the Empire to
                > Byzantium (creating Constantinople) in 333, and after persecuting
                > Christians was outlawed via the Edict of Milan in 313, and after
                the
                > Bishop of Rome was "granted" sovereignty over the Latin and
                Italian
                > territories via the fictitious "Donation" of Constantine, and once
                > the Roman Empire was divided into 10 kingdoms (ten toes) via
                > Barbarian invasions in the late 5th century, the Bishop's rise to
                > all-powerful supremacy became inevitable.
                > > The saints throughout history recognized the mutation that
                > occurred after the Empire was moved East, wherein the once humble
                > pastors of the Church at Rome morphed into power-hungry,
                tyrannical,
                > idolatrous, murderous Popes. The early Church Fathers also knew
                > that the man of sin would rise once the Empire fell, which is why
                > they prayed for its continued existence.
                > > Therefore, (A) as the "let" was the Roman Empire that was "taken
                > out of the way" in 333 A.D.; and (B) as Christians for centuries
                > have recognized the man of sin to be the Bishops who ascended the
                > Roman throne after the Empire's removal; and (C) as the mark of
                the
                > beast, (D) the worshipping of the beast's image, (E) the murdering
                > of the saints have all been going on for centuries; the consuming
                > and destroying, then, with which the Beast and false prophet are
                met
                > at Christ's coming, cannot refer to just ONE Pope and ONE false
                > prophet, nor to their soul-less "offices," but to the entire
                > succession of men.
                > >
                > > "And the beast [a.k.a. man of sin, a.k.a. little horn, a.k.a.
                the
                > Antichrist] was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought
                > miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
                > the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These
                > both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
                > >
                > > See also Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's image,
                > wherein ONE represents MANY.
                > >
                > >
                > > Keith
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: keith dotzler
                > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: 4/3/2005 12:32:09 AM
                > > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                > >
                > >
                > > Daniel,
                > >
                > > There are problems with your line of reasoning. For example:
                > >
                > > When you say,
                > >
                > > "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which
                the
                > PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some
                > resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into distruction
                > [sic]..."
                > >
                > > ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical
                > conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man of
                > sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints
                and
                > trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a
                > literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's
                > return?
                > >
                > > As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot be
                > destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS. The men are cast
                > into hell, not the office, which has no soul.
                > >
                > > Keith
                > >
                > >
                > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > From: Daniel
                > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
                > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office
                > of
                > > the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the
                Antichrist
                > > inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?
                > >
                > > If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist
                > then
                > > each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
                > > judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he
                > will
                > > be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
                > > brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point
                in
                > > time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if
                there
                > > were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
                > > distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
                > > before Christ returns.
                > >
                > > It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this
                wouldn't
                > > mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which
                is
                > the
                > > Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
                > > Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
                > > submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is
                predicted
                > to
                > > fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while
                we
                > > can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray
                > for
                > > the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.
                > >
                > > I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in
                > there
                > > popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die
                > before
                > > they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying
                > the
                > > fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost
                > (and
                > > we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I
                > don't
                > > know enough about this but could it be argued that the process
                of
                > > becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of
                the
                > > Holy Ghost?
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > > ADVERTISEMENT
                > > Children International
                > > Would you give Hope to a Child in need?
                > >
                > > ·Click Here to meet a Girl
                > > And Give Her Hope
                > >
                > > ·Click Here to meet a Boy
                > > And Change His Life
                > >
                > > Learn More
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                > >
                > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > Service.
              • abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                Jason, I am not sure you understood what I meant. Is there an AntiChrist right now? Or, are there times when the AntiChrist is dead, and other times when the
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 4, 2005
                • 0 Attachment
                  Jason,

                  I am not sure you understood what I meant. Is there an AntiChrist
                  right now? Or, are there times when the AntiChrist is dead, and
                  other times when the AntiChrist is alive?







                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Robert
                  Schuiling" <jrschuiling@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Certainly the Polish man named Karol Jozef Wojtyla(John Paul II)
                  > died yesterday, but the Papacy remains alive and well. This is in
                  > fact, I believe, one of its strongest and most threatening
                  positions
                  > at this time. Any time there is a Papl vacancy the antichristian
                  > threat is perhaps at its greatest potential, seeing that a man of
                  > even greater inert wickedness than the last may fill that office.
                  > However it seems that at this point in history that threat is
                  > heightened. John Paul II was by most appearences a 'nice'
                  > and 'peaceful' man. But he proccurred one thing for the Papacy
                  which
                  > exponentially increases its terror. No other pope had been as
                  widely
                  > traveled nor as broadly venerated by hoards of masses as had been
                  > the most recent pope. JP2 superadded to the Papacy's 'universal
                  > bishopric' a universal popularity. 'Everybody' loves the pope. If
                  > ever there has been a time in which Romish prelate has had
                  > opportunity to exercise universal tyrrany it is now. All it may
                  take
                  > is a man of charm and cunning to secure credulity and loyalty. We
                  > MAY see, in my opinion, in this next 'successor of Peter' some of
                  > the greatest deception and perhaps Papal violence that the world
                  has
                  > ever known. Kyrie Eleison.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Jason
                  >
                  > --- In
                  >
                  covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "abusharmaranthkarimsuntha
                  > harama" <abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama@y...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Keith,
                  > >
                  > > What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?" Do you believe
                  > > there is no AntiChrist now?
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith
                  dotzler"
                  > > <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                  > > > Daniel,
                  > > >
                  > > > To elaborate further:
                  > > >
                  > > > 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for
                  > that
                  > > day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away
                  > > first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                  > > >
                  > > > 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above
                  all
                  > > that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God
                  > sitteth
                  > > in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                  > > >
                  > > > 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet
                  with
                  > > you, I told you these things?
                  > > >
                  > > > 2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he
                  > > might be revealed in his time.
                  > > >
                  > > > 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already
                  > > work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of
                  > the
                  > > way.
                  > > >
                  > > > 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
                  > whom
                  > > the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
                  > > destroy with the brightness of his coming:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > To summarize the chronology of events,
                  > > >
                  > > > There will be an apostasy from the faith, from which the man
                  of
                  > > sin will rise.
                  > > > This man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above God,
                  sitting
                  > > in the Temple of God (the Church), shewing himself to be God.
                  > > > The Thessalonians knew what was withholding the rise of this
                  man
                  > > of sin, because Paul had told them orally.
                  > > > Once the thing that was withholding was removed, the wicked
                  man
                  > of
                  > > sin would be revealed.
                  > > > This man of sin will be consumed with the Spirit of Christ's
                  > > mouth, and will be destroyed at his coming.
                  > > > Historically, we see that:
                  > > > It was the Church at Rome that apostatized from Biblical
                  > doctrine,
                  > > allowing doctrines of demons to infect it, leading to the
                  > ascendancy
                  > > of its Bishops to a place of tyrannical power.
                  > > > It was the Bishop of Rome who exalted himself above God,
                  sitting
                  > > in the visible Church (the Temple of God), claiming to be
                  Christ's
                  > > VICAR; nay, God himself (NOTE: the prefix anti means "in the
                  place
                  > > of," or "to oppose;" hence, the Bishop of Rome, by claiming to
                  be
                  > > Christ's "VICAR" (which also means "in the place of"), is
                  readily
                  > > identifying himself as the ANTI-Christ!).
                  > > > It was the Roman Empire that restrained the rise of the Bishop
                  > of
                  > > Rome (Pope), because the two could not rule from Rome
                  > > simultaneously. Once Constantine moved the seat of the Empire
                  to
                  > > Byzantium (creating Constantinople) in 333, and after
                  persecuting
                  > > Christians was outlawed via the Edict of Milan in 313, and after
                  > the
                  > > Bishop of Rome was "granted" sovereignty over the Latin and
                  > Italian
                  > > territories via the fictitious "Donation" of Constantine, and
                  once
                  > > the Roman Empire was divided into 10 kingdoms (ten toes) via
                  > > Barbarian invasions in the late 5th century, the Bishop's rise
                  to
                  > > all-powerful supremacy became inevitable.
                  > > > The saints throughout history recognized the mutation that
                  > > occurred after the Empire was moved East, wherein the once
                  humble
                  > > pastors of the Church at Rome morphed into power-hungry,
                  > tyrannical,
                  > > idolatrous, murderous Popes. The early Church Fathers also knew
                  > > that the man of sin would rise once the Empire fell, which is
                  why
                  > > they prayed for its continued existence.
                  > > > Therefore, (A) as the "let" was the Roman Empire that
                  was "taken
                  > > out of the way" in 333 A.D.; and (B) as Christians for centuries
                  > > have recognized the man of sin to be the Bishops who ascended
                  the
                  > > Roman throne after the Empire's removal; and (C) as the mark of
                  > the
                  > > beast, (D) the worshipping of the beast's image, (E) the
                  murdering
                  > > of the saints have all been going on for centuries; the
                  consuming
                  > > and destroying, then, with which the Beast and false prophet are
                  > met
                  > > at Christ's coming, cannot refer to just ONE Pope and ONE false
                  > > prophet, nor to their soul-less "offices," but to the entire
                  > > succession of men.
                  > > >
                  > > > "And the beast [a.k.a. man of sin, a.k.a. little horn, a.k.a.
                  > the
                  > > Antichrist] was taken, and with him the false prophet that
                  wrought
                  > > miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had
                  received
                  > > the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These
                  > > both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
                  > > >
                  > > > See also Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's image,
                  > > wherein ONE represents MANY.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Keith
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: keith dotzler
                  > > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Sent: 4/3/2005 12:32:09 AM
                  > > > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is
                  dying
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Daniel,
                  > > >
                  > > > There are problems with your line of reasoning. For example:
                  > > >
                  > > > When you say,
                  > > >
                  > > > "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which
                  > the
                  > > PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some
                  > > resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into
                  distruction
                  > > [sic]..."
                  > > >
                  > > > ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical
                  > > conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man
                  of
                  > > sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints
                  > and
                  > > trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a
                  > > literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's
                  > > return?
                  > > >
                  > > > As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot
                  be
                  > > destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS. The men are
                  cast
                  > > into hell, not the office, which has no soul.
                  > > >
                  > > > Keith
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > > From: Daniel
                  > > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
                  > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the
                  office
                  > > of
                  > > > the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the
                  > Antichrist
                  > > > inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?
                  > > >
                  > > > If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the
                  Antichrist
                  > > then
                  > > > each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
                  > > > judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that
                  he
                  > > will
                  > > > be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
                  > > > brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one
                  point
                  > in
                  > > > time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if
                  > there
                  > > > were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
                  > > > distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which
                  is
                  > > > before Christ returns.
                  > > >
                  > > > It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this
                  > wouldn't
                  > > > mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which
                  > is
                  > > the
                  > > > Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for
                  the
                  > > > Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery
                  which
                  > > > submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is
                  > predicted
                  > > to
                  > > > fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And
                  while
                  > we
                  > > > can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot
                  pray
                  > > for
                  > > > the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.
                  > > >
                  > > > I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and
                  in
                  > > there
                  > > > popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die
                  > > before
                  > > > they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not
                  denying
                  > > the
                  > > > fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy
                  Ghost
                  > > (and
                  > > > we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I
                  > > don't
                  > > > know enough about this but could it be argued that the process
                  > of
                  > > > becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of
                  > the
                  > > > Holy Ghost?
                  > > >
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > > > Children International
                  > > > Would you give Hope to a Child in need?
                  > > >
                  > > > ·Click Here to meet a Girl
                  > > > And Give Her Hope
                  > > >
                  > > > ·Click Here to meet a Boy
                  > > > And Change His Life
                  > > >
                  > > > Learn More
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                  > > >
                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > > Service.
                • keith dotzler
                  What do we do now that there is no living Pope? There is always a living Pope; hence, there is always a man of sin. The next one in the dynasty just hasn t
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 4, 2005
                  • 0 Attachment
                     
                    What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?"
                     
                     
                    There is always a living Pope; hence, there is always a man of sin.  The next one in the dynasty just hasn't been formally crowned yet. 
                     
                    God has decreed that the Antichrist - a dynasty of "Latin men" (Lateinos) would:
                    • sit in the professing Church (the temple of God),
                    • wear out the saints,
                    • trample their blood under foot,
                    • speak great blasphemies against the Most High,
                    • think to change times and laws,
                    • cause small and great, rich and poor, to receive a mark, &c., &c. 
                    ......from the days of the removal of the Roman Empire, until the return of Jesus Christ. 
                     
                    That being the case, the succession is never broken, and the world is never "Antichrist-free," just because one man of sin dies, and some time elapses before the next one is crowned. Judas Iscariot was the son of perdition, even before Christ called him such in John 17:12...because he was prophesied to be so.  Even when he was first selected as an Apostle, before his betrayal of Christ, he was the son of perdition. He certainly didn't find himself "falling" into the role.
                     
                     
                    In Christ,
                    Keith
                     
                     
                     
                     
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    Sent: 4/3/2005 6:15:31 PM
                    Subject: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and Pope John Paul



                    Keith,

                    What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?" Do you believe
                    there is no AntiChrist now?


                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                    <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                    > Daniel,
                    >
                    > To elaborate further:
                    >
                    > 2 Thessalonians 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that
                    day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away
                    first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                    >
                    > 2 Thessalonians 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all
                    that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth
                    in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                    >
                    > 2 Thessalonians 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with
                    you, I told you these things?
                    >
                    > 2 Thessalonians 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he
                    might be revealed in his time.
                    >
                    > 2 Thessalonians 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already
                    work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the
                    way.
                    >
                    > 2 Thessalonians 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom
                    the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
                    destroy with the brightness of his coming:
                    >
                    >
                    > To summarize the chronology of events,
                    >
                    > There will be an apostasy from the faith, from which the man of
                    sin will rise.
                    > This man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above God, sitting
                    in the Temple of God (the Church), shewing himself to be God.
                    > The Thessalonians knew what was withholding the rise of this man
                    of sin, because Paul had told them orally. 
                    > Once the thing that was withholding was removed, the wicked man of
                    sin would be revealed.
                    > This man of sin will be consumed with the Spirit of Christ's
                    mouth, and will be destroyed at his coming.
                    > Historically, we see that:
                    > It was the Church at Rome that apostatized from Biblical doctrine,
                    allowing doctrines of demons to infect it, leading to the ascendancy
                    of its Bishops to a place of tyrannical power.
                    > It was the Bishop of Rome who exalted himself above God, sitting
                    in the visible Church (the Temple of God), claiming to be Christ's
                    VICAR; nay, God himself (NOTE: the prefix anti means "in the place
                    of," or "to oppose;" hence, the Bishop of Rome, by claiming to be
                    Christ's "VICAR" (which also means "in the place of"), is readily
                    identifying himself as the ANTI-Christ!).
                    > It was the Roman Empire that restrained the rise of the Bishop of
                    Rome (Pope), because the two could not rule from Rome
                    simultaneously.  Once Constantine moved the seat of the Empire to
                    Byzantium (creating Constantinople) in 333, and after persecuting
                    Christians was outlawed via the Edict of Milan in 313, and after the
                    Bishop of Rome was "granted" sovereignty over the Latin and Italian
                    territories via the fictitious "Donation" of Constantine, and once
                    the Roman Empire was divided into 10 kingdoms (ten toes) via
                    Barbarian invasions in the late 5th century, the Bishop's rise to
                    all-powerful supremacy became inevitable.
                    > The saints throughout history recognized the mutation that
                    occurred after the Empire was moved East, wherein the once humble
                    pastors of the Church at Rome morphed into power-hungry, tyrannical,
                    idolatrous, murderous Popes.  The early Church Fathers also knew
                    that the man of sin would rise once the Empire fell, which is why
                    they prayed for its continued existence.
                    > Therefore, (A) as the "let" was the Roman Empire that was "taken
                    out of the way" in 333 A.D.; and (B) as Christians for centuries
                    have recognized the man of sin to be the Bishops who ascended the
                    Roman throne after the Empire's removal; and (C) as the mark of the
                    beast, (D) the worshipping of the beast's image, (E) the murdering
                    of the saints have all been going on for centuries; the consuming
                    and destroying, then, with which the Beast and false prophet are met
                    at Christ's coming, cannot refer to just ONE Pope and ONE false
                    prophet, nor to their soul-less "offices," but to the entire
                    succession of men. 
                    >
                    > "And the beast [a.k.a. man of sin, a.k.a. little horn, a.k.a. the
                    Antichrist] was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought
                    miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
                    the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These
                    both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
                    >
                    > See also Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's image,
                    wherein ONE represents MANY.
                    >
                    >
                    > Keith
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: keith dotzler
                    > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: 4/3/2005 12:32:09 AM
                    > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                    >
                    >
                    > Daniel,
                    >
                    > There are problems with your line of reasoning.  For example:
                    >
                    > When you say,
                    >
                    > "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which the
                    PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some
                    resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into distruction
                    [sic]..."
                    >
                    > ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical
                    conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man of
                    sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints and
                    trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a
                    literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's
                    return? 
                    >
                    > As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot be
                    destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS.  The men are cast
                    into hell, not the office, which has no soul. 
                    >
                    > Keith
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Daniel
                    > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                    > Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
                    > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office
                    of
                    > the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the Antichrist
                    > inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?
                    >
                    > If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist
                    then
                    > each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
                    > judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he
                    will
                    > be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
                    > brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point in
                    > time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there
                    > were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
                    > distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
                    > before Christ returns.
                    >
                    > It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this wouldn't
                    > mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which is
                    the
                    > Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
                    > Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
                    > submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is predicted
                    to
                    > fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while we
                    > can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray
                    for
                    > the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.
                    >
                    > I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in
                    there
                    > popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die
                    before
                    > they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying
                    the
                    > fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost
                    (and
                    > we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I
                    don't
                    > know enough about this but could it be argued that the process of
                    > becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of the
                    > Holy Ghost?
                    >
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                  • abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                    Keith, I know you are trying to help, but now there are two or more AntiChrist s (living Popes) alive, simultaneously??? ... sin. The next one in the dynasty
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 4, 2005
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                      Keith,

                      I know you are trying to help, but now there are two or more
                      AntiChrist's (living Popes) alive, simultaneously???


                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                      <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                      >
                      > What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?"
                      >
                      >
                      > There is always a living Pope; hence, there is always a man of
                      sin. The next one in the dynasty just hasn't been formally crowned
                      yet.
                      >
                      > God has decreed that the Antichrist - a dynasty of "Latin men"
                      (Lateinos) would:
                      > sit in the professing Church (the temple of God),
                      > wear out the saints,
                      > trample their blood under foot,
                      > speak great blasphemies against the Most High,
                      > think to change times and laws,
                      > cause small and great, rich and poor, to receive a mark, &c., &c.
                      > ......from the days of the removal of the Roman Empire, until the
                      return of Jesus Christ.
                      >
                      > That being the case, the succession is never broken, and the world
                      is never "Antichrist-free," just because one man of sin dies, and
                      some time elapses before the next one is crowned. Judas Iscariot was
                      the son of perdition, even before Christ called him such in John
                      17:12...because he was prophesied to be so. Even when he was first
                      selected as an Apostle, before his betrayal of Christ, he was the
                      son of perdition. He certainly didn't find himself "falling" into
                      the role.
                      >
                      >
                      > In Christ,
                      > Keith
                      > http://www.thebeastunmasked.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                      > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: 4/3/2005 6:15:31 PM
                      > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and Pope John
                      Paul
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Keith,
                      >
                      > What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?" Do you believe
                      > there is no AntiChrist now?
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                      > <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                      > > Daniel,
                      > >
                      > > To elaborate further:
                      > >
                      > > 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for
                      that
                      > day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away
                      > first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                      > >
                      > > 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all
                      > that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God
                      sitteth
                      > in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                      > >
                      > > 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with
                      > you, I told you these things?
                      > >
                      > > 2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he
                      > might be revealed in his time.
                      > >
                      > > 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already
                      > work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of
                      the
                      > way.
                      > >
                      > > 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
                      whom
                      > the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
                      > destroy with the brightness of his coming:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To summarize the chronology of events,
                      > >
                      > > There will be an apostasy from the faith, from which the man of
                      > sin will rise.
                      > > This man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above God, sitting
                      > in the Temple of God (the Church), shewing himself to be God.
                      > > The Thessalonians knew what was withholding the rise of this man
                      > of sin, because Paul had told them orally.
                      > > Once the thing that was withholding was removed, the wicked man
                      of
                      > sin would be revealed.
                      > > This man of sin will be consumed with the Spirit of Christ's
                      > mouth, and will be destroyed at his coming.
                      > > Historically, we see that:
                      > > It was the Church at Rome that apostatized from Biblical
                      doctrine,
                      > allowing doctrines of demons to infect it, leading to the
                      ascendancy
                      > of its Bishops to a place of tyrannical power.
                      > > It was the Bishop of Rome who exalted himself above God, sitting
                      > in the visible Church (the Temple of God), claiming to be Christ's
                      > VICAR; nay, God himself (NOTE: the prefix anti means "in the place
                      > of," or "to oppose;" hence, the Bishop of Rome, by claiming to be
                      > Christ's "VICAR" (which also means "in the place of"), is readily
                      > identifying himself as the ANTI-Christ!).
                      > > It was the Roman Empire that restrained the rise of the Bishop
                      of
                      > Rome (Pope), because the two could not rule from Rome
                      > simultaneously. Once Constantine moved the seat of the Empire to
                      > Byzantium (creating Constantinople) in 333, and after persecuting
                      > Christians was outlawed via the Edict of Milan in 313, and after
                      the
                      > Bishop of Rome was "granted" sovereignty over the Latin and
                      Italian
                      > territories via the fictitious "Donation" of Constantine, and once
                      > the Roman Empire was divided into 10 kingdoms (ten toes) via
                      > Barbarian invasions in the late 5th century, the Bishop's rise to
                      > all-powerful supremacy became inevitable.
                      > > The saints throughout history recognized the mutation that
                      > occurred after the Empire was moved East, wherein the once humble
                      > pastors of the Church at Rome morphed into power-hungry,
                      tyrannical,
                      > idolatrous, murderous Popes. The early Church Fathers also knew
                      > that the man of sin would rise once the Empire fell, which is why
                      > they prayed for its continued existence.
                      > > Therefore, (A) as the "let" was the Roman Empire that was "taken
                      > out of the way" in 333 A.D.; and (B) as Christians for centuries
                      > have recognized the man of sin to be the Bishops who ascended the
                      > Roman throne after the Empire's removal; and (C) as the mark of
                      the
                      > beast, (D) the worshipping of the beast's image, (E) the murdering
                      > of the saints have all been going on for centuries; the consuming
                      > and destroying, then, with which the Beast and false prophet are
                      met
                      > at Christ's coming, cannot refer to just ONE Pope and ONE false
                      > prophet, nor to their soul-less "offices," but to the entire
                      > succession of men.
                      > >
                      > > "And the beast [a.k.a. man of sin, a.k.a. little horn, a.k.a.
                      the
                      > Antichrist] was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought
                      > miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
                      > the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These
                      > both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
                      > >
                      > > See also Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's image,
                      > wherein ONE represents MANY.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Keith
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: keith dotzler
                      > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: 4/3/2005 12:32:09 AM
                      > > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Daniel,
                      > >
                      > > There are problems with your line of reasoning. For example:
                      > >
                      > > When you say,
                      > >
                      > > "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which
                      the
                      > PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some
                      > resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into distruction
                      > [sic]..."
                      > >
                      > > ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical
                      > conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man of
                      > sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints
                      and
                      > trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a
                      > literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's
                      > return?
                      > >
                      > > As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot be
                      > destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS. The men are cast
                      > into hell, not the office, which has no soul.
                      > >
                      > > Keith
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > From: Daniel
                      > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
                      > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office
                      > of
                      > > the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the
                      Antichrist
                      > > inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?
                      > >
                      > > If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist
                      > then
                      > > each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
                      > > judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he
                      > will
                      > > be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
                      > > brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point
                      in
                      > > time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if
                      there
                      > > were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
                      > > distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
                      > > before Christ returns.
                      > >
                      > > It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this
                      wouldn't
                      > > mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which
                      is
                      > the
                      > > Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
                      > > Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
                      > > submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is
                      predicted
                      > to
                      > > fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while
                      we
                      > > can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray
                      > for
                      > > the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.
                      > >
                      > > I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in
                      > there
                      > > popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die
                      > before
                      > > they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying
                      > the
                      > > fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost
                      > (and
                      > > we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I
                      > don't
                      > > know enough about this but could it be argued that the process
                      of
                      > > becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of
                      the
                      > > Holy Ghost?
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                      > >
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                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > Service.
                      >
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                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      >
                      >
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                      >
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                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                      >
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                      Service.
                    • J. Parnell McCarter
                      Edgar, you are quite right that the FPCS is descended from the Church of Scotland following the persecuting times. But let it be remembered that a majority of
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 4, 2005
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                         Edgar, you are quite right that the FPCS is descended from the Church of Scotland following the persecuting times.  But let it be remembered that a majority of the persecuted Covenanters from the persecuting times chose to join the Church of Scotland of the 1690s.  That included almost all the Covenanter ministers.

                         

                        It was only a minority that chose to be dissenters and not join after the persecuting times. 

                         

                        Therefore, you cannot claim a monopoly on those that endured persecution during the persecuting times for their dissent during those times.

                         

                        - Parnell McCarter

                         

                         

                      • keith dotzler
                        Daniel, But if the pope repented from being the pope, he would no longer be the Antichrist. This has never happened in the history of the Papacy...nor will
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 4, 2005
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                          Daniel,
                           
                          "But if the pope repented from being the pope, he would no longer be the Antichrist."
                           
                          This has never happened in the history of the Papacy...nor will it.  Their power-hungry pride won't allow it.
                           
                          "As for the forty two months, I believe in the day-year principle and so I believe that it isn't literal days but that each day equals a year as you probably do. I am not fully sure that I understand what you mean..."
                           
                          Here's what I meant.  Perhaps I read too much into what you said.  You previously said:  "If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist then each of them would have to have individually experienced God's judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he will be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His coming..."
                           
                          In order for each individual Pope NOT to be the Antichrist, the destruction of the man of sin by the brightness of Christ's coming would have to be limited, then, to the one Pope reigning at that time.  Since one man of sin couldn't possibly reign in the "temple of God" for 1260 years, the 42 months would have to be [erroneously] construed as 1260 literal days, or 3 1/2 years. 
                           
                          Since we know the man of sin is synonymous with the little horn, the Beast from the sea, the scarlet-coloured Beast, the Destroyer, and the Antichrist -- being a dynasty of kings, not one man -- we know then, that at Christ's coming, they are all destroyed at the same time.  The destruction of the man of sin is not limited to one man, nor is the "office" cast into the lake of fire. 
                           
                          The Papal power comes to a decline at one point in history...I agree.
                          The 1260 "days" are days of years...I agree.
                           
                          Keith
                           
                           
                           
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Daniel
                          Sent: 4/3/2005 3:36:58 PM
                          Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying


                          Keith,

                          Thanks for your responce. I fully believe in what you are saying
                          regarding the fact that often in prophesy one represents many. Like
                          the word king can refer to a line of kings. And I used to say that it
                          is just the papacy but what I actually believe now is similar but I
                          would go even furthur and say that, yes, the individual popes are the
                          Antichrist but only inasmuch as they bear that office. So it is the
                          individuals and the office not one or the other.

                          Those arguements you listed about why the pope is the Antichrist are
                          very solid and I agree with them (although I am not as well informed
                          on it as you because some of the points you mentioned were new and
                          interesting so I will try to remember them). I don't have any problem
                          with your arguement that the pope is the Antichrist because I agree.
                          I am a historicist too.

                          As for the fact that the Beast will be thrown into the lake of fire,
                          that is an interesting point. But if the pope repented from being the
                          pope, he would no longer be the Antichrist. This is analogous to the
                          vice lists in which it would be said that idolators and fornicators
                          and so forth will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Although this is
                          not a prophesy like Revelation, it has the same force in that
                          anything the Bible says will come true. But does this mean that if
                          someone is presently an idolator, he will never repent? The office
                          doesn't have a soul but my position is that it isn't just the office
                          but individuals who are popes as well as the office inasmuch as they
                          hold the office, which means that if they reject the office, they are
                          no longer the Antichrist. This understanding, I think does justice to
                          the fact that the predicted Antichrist will be eternally tormented in
                          hell.

                          As for the forty two months, I believe in the day-year principle and
                          so I believe that it isn't literal days but that each day equals a
                          year as you probably do. I am not fully sure that I understand what
                          you mean here so correct me if I answer in a way that indicates that
                          I don't. Just because I believe that the decline of the papacy will
                          be at one point in history, it would not logically follow that I
                          would also believe that the period of persecution would only be three
                          and a half literal years. Isn't it natural to think that the papacy
                          would do this for 1260 years and then after that come to a decline.
                          Although I reject the futurist dispensational approach to prophesy, I
                          do not reject that there are some things which are future as all
                          historicist would agree.

                          Thanks again for your arguements and please tell me if I did not
                          understand correctly. I am glad to see a place on the internet like
                          this that is not just reformed in the modern sence but that is
                          reformed like the actual puritans and reformers.

                          In Christ,

                          Daniel Drost




                        • keith dotzler
                          Are there two or more Bishops alive at any given moment? Were there two or more priests alive at any given moment in Old Testament days? Were there two or
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 4, 2005
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                            Are there two or more Bishops alive at any given moment?  Were there two or more priests alive at any given moment in Old Testament days?  Were there two or more kings alive at any given moment in Old Testament days...and even today?  Are there two or more Presidents alive at any given moment?
                             
                            To answer your question:  YES! 
                             
                            But.....THE CROWN CAN ONLY BE WORN BY ONE AT A TIME.
                             
                             
                            Keith
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            Sent: 4/4/2005 8:05:08 PM
                            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and Pope John Paul



                            Keith,

                            I know you are trying to help, but now there are two or more
                            AntiChrist's (living Popes) alive, simultaneously???
                          • abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                            Keith, Thank you for your opinion, but one is not a President until he is elected so. For example, one could not say that President Clinton was president, in
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 4, 2005
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                              Keith,

                              Thank you for your opinion, but one is not a President until he is
                              elected so. For example, one could not say that President Clinton
                              was president, in the years before his election. King Louie was not
                              King Louie while he was a Prince. The AntiChrist is not AntiChrist,
                              until he is seated in the temple of God, showing himself that he is
                              God, unless of course you look at the AntiChrist as some sort of
                              Damien figure out of the Exorcist. That of course would not play
                              very well, in the scheme of multiples of men, who are the Man of Sin.

                              If I am off base please feel free to correct me.




                              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                              <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                              > Are there two or more Bishops alive at any given moment? Were
                              there two or more priests alive at any given moment in Old Testament
                              days? Were there two or more kings alive at any given moment in Old
                              Testament days...and even today? Are there two or more Presidents
                              alive at any given moment?
                              >
                              > To answer your question: YES!
                              >
                              > But.....THE CROWN CAN ONLY BE WORN BY ONE AT A TIME.
                              >
                              >
                              > Keith
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                              > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                              > Sent: 4/4/2005 8:05:08 PM
                              > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and Pope
                              John Paul
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Keith,
                              >
                              > I know you are trying to help, but now there are two or more
                              > AntiChrist's (living Popes) alive, simultaneously???
                            • keith dotzler
                              What exactly is your point in all of this? ... From: abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: 4/4/2005 10:53:38 PM
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 4, 2005
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                                What exactly is your point in all of this? 
                                 
                                 
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                Sent: 4/4/2005 10:53:38 PM
                                Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and Pope John Paul



                                Keith,

                                Thank you for your opinion, but one is not a President until he is
                                elected so. For example, one could not say that President Clinton
                                was president, in the years before his election. King Louie was not
                                King Louie while he was a Prince. The AntiChrist is not AntiChrist,
                                until he is seated in the temple of God, showing himself that he is
                                God, unless of course you look at the AntiChrist as some sort of
                                Damien figure out of the Exorcist. That of course would not play
                                very well, in the scheme of multiples of men, who are the Man of Sin.

                                If I am off base please feel free to correct me.




                                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                                <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                                > Are there two or more Bishops alive at any given moment?  Were
                                there two or more priests alive at any given moment in Old Testament
                                days?  Were there two or more kings alive at any given moment in Old
                                Testament days...and even today?  Are there two or more Presidents
                                alive at any given moment?
                                >
                                > To answer your question:  YES!
                                >
                                > But.....THE CROWN CAN ONLY BE WORN BY ONE AT A TIME.
                                >
                                >
                                > Keith
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                                > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: 4/4/2005 8:05:08 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and Pope
                                John Paul
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Keith,
                                >
                                > I know you are trying to help, but now there are two or more
                                > AntiChrist's (living Popes) alive, simultaneously???







                              • johnnieburgessjr
                                1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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                                  1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have
                                  heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many
                                  antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

                                  John referes to many antichrists.


                                  --- In
                                  covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "abusharmaranthkarimsuntha
                                  harama" <abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Keith,
                                  >
                                  > Thank you for your opinion, but one is not a President until he is
                                  > elected so. For example, one could not say that President Clinton
                                  > was president, in the years before his election. King Louie was
                                  not
                                  > King Louie while he was a Prince. The AntiChrist is not
                                  AntiChrist,
                                  > until he is seated in the temple of God, showing himself that he
                                  is
                                  > God, unless of course you look at the AntiChrist as some sort of
                                  > Damien figure out of the Exorcist. That of course would not play
                                  > very well, in the scheme of multiples of men, who are the Man of
                                  Sin.
                                  >
                                  > If I am off base please feel free to correct me.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                                  > <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                                  > > Are there two or more Bishops alive at any given moment? Were
                                  > there two or more priests alive at any given moment in Old
                                  Testament
                                  > days? Were there two or more kings alive at any given moment in
                                  Old
                                  > Testament days...and even today? Are there two or more Presidents
                                  > alive at any given moment?
                                  > >
                                  > > To answer your question: YES!
                                  > >
                                  > > But.....THE CROWN CAN ONLY BE WORN BY ONE AT A TIME.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Keith
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > From: abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                                  > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > Sent: 4/4/2005 8:05:08 PM
                                  > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and
                                  Pope
                                  > John Paul
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Keith,
                                  > >
                                  > > I know you are trying to help, but now there are two or more
                                  > > AntiChrist's (living Popes) alive, simultaneously???
                                • Larry Bump
                                  ... He also said they were present/alive in the first century, long before there was a pope.
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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                                    johnnieburgessjr wrote:
                                    >
                                    > 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have
                                    > heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many
                                    > antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
                                    >
                                    > John referes to many antichrists.

                                    He also said they were present/alive in the first century, long before
                                    there was a pope.
                                  • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                                    And there are many that have the spirit of Anti-Christ: Jehovah s Witlesses, the Morons, the Muslims, & etc...But THE Anti-Christ par excelancy is that pompous
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 5, 2005
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                                      And there are many that have the spirit of Anti-Christ: Jehovah's
                                      Witlesses, the Morons, the Muslims, & etc...But THE Anti-Christ par
                                      excelancy is that pompous whore that sits in Rome riding the beast
                                      and fornicating with the world and so-called Protestants...(see the
                                      list of names of the Evangelicals & Catholics Together)

                                      Levity in midst of seriousness "sometimes" helps calm the air,

                                      Edgar

                                      ;-)


                                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Larry Bump
                                      <lbump@b...> wrote:
                                      > johnnieburgessjr wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have
                                      > > heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many
                                      > > antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
                                      > >
                                      > > John referes to many antichrists.
                                      >
                                      > He also said they were present/alive in the first century, long
                                      before
                                      > there was a pope.
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