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[Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying

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  • Whit
    Thank you. I started having 2nd thoughts, and now, I am indeed convicted by the Spirit about my sin regarding praying for the Pope. I will spend time before
    Message 1 of 22 , Apr 2 5:44 PM
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      Thank you. I started having 2nd thoughts, and now, I am indeed
      convicted by the Spirit about my sin regarding praying for the
      Pope. I will spend time before God on this in confession.

      Whit

      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
      <kdotz@e...> wrote:
      >
      > WHIT: I had been praying: IF it is God's Will, that he would
      > be healed and especially that he would be saved before he died.
      >
      > KEITH: It is impossible for the man of sin to be saved.
      >
      > WHIT: So, praying for someone's salvation is praying
      for "that...thwarted"?
      >
      > KEITH: Praying for the salvation of the MAN OF SIN is, in effect,
      praying that God's decree (that he, along with the false prophet,
      shall be cast alive into the lake of fire) be thwarted. Scripture
      is clear on this.
      >
      > WHIT: How do we know that Karol (and the other holders of that
      office) is
      > predestined to Hell?
      >
      > KEITH: Because Scripture says so. See the excerpts from Daniel
      and 2 Thes. that accompanied my last post.
      >
      > WHIT: Cannot God save a person elected to that office if he
      sincerely repents, rejects that office, and relies on Christ Alone
      for salvation?
      >
      > KEITH: Of course God can, but he won't. Scripture is clear on
      this.
      >
      >
      > In Christ,
      > Keith
      > www.thebeastunmasked.com
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Whit
      > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: 4/2/2005 6:51:04 PM
      > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
      >
      >
      >
      > For the past year until to-day, I had been praying for Karol
      Wojtyla.
      > Specifically, I had been praying that if it is God's Will, that he
      > would be healed and especially that he would saved before he die.
      So,
      >
      > > We are not to pray for ANY man of sin who is in the "office,"
      > because he, along with all who have held the office of the false
      > prophet (i.e., the Papal Clergy), have been predestined for the
      lake
      > of fire. Praying for them would be praying for that, which God
      had
      > decreed from the beginning, to be thwarted.
      > >
      > For the past year until to-day, I had been praying for Karol
      Wojtyla.
      > Specifically, I had been praying: IF it is God's Will, that he
      would
      > be healed and especially that he would be saved before he died.
      So,
      > praying for someone's salvation is praying for "that...thwarted"?
      How
      > do we know that Karol (and the other holders of that office) is
      > predestined to Hell? Cannot God save a person elected to that
      office
      > if he sincerely repents, rejects that office, and relies on Christ
      > Alone for salvation?
      >
      > > In the same way, those who proclaim we should "hate the sin, not
      the
      > sinner," are seemingly ignorant of the fact that the SIN is not
      cast
      > into hell, but the SOUL THAT SINNETH.
      > >
      >
      > So, we should hate sinners, which includes hating our enemies?
      >
      > I am having difficulty following you here.
      >
      > Whit
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Daniel
      Don t the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office of the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the Antichrist inasmuch as he bears the
      Message 2 of 22 , Apr 2 7:04 PM
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        Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office of
        the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the Antichrist
        inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?

        If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist then
        each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
        judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he will
        be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
        brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point in
        time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there
        were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
        distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
        before Christ returns.

        It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this wouldn't
        mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which is the
        Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
        Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
        submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is predicted to
        fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while we
        can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray for
        the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.

        I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in there
        popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die before
        they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying the
        fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost (and
        we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I don't
        know enough about this but could it be argued that the process of
        becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of the
        Holy Ghost?
      • keith dotzler
        Daniel, There are problems with your line of reasoning. For example: When you say, This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which the PAPACY
        Message 3 of 22 , Apr 2 8:25 PM
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          Daniel,
           
          There are problems with your line of reasoning.  For example:
           
          When you say,
           
          "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into distruction [sic]..."
           
          ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man of sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints and trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's return? 
           
          As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot be destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS.  The men are cast into hell, not the office, which has no soul. 
           
          Keith
           
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Daniel
          Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
          Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying


          Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office of
          the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the Antichrist
          inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?

          If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist then
          each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
          judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he will
          be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
          brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point in
          time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there
          were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
          distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
          before Christ returns.

          It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this wouldn't
          mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which is the
          Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
          Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
          submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is predicted to
          fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while we
          can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray for
          the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.

          I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in there
          popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die before
          they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying the
          fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost (and
          we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I don't
          know enough about this but could it be argued that the process of
          becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of the
          Holy Ghost?
        • keith dotzler
          Daniel, To elaborate further: 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling
          Message 4 of 22 , Apr 3 9:40 AM
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            Daniel,
             
            To elaborate further:
             
            2 Thessalonians 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
             
            2 Thessalonians 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
             
            2 Thessalonians 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
             
            2 Thessalonians 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
             
            2 Thessalonians 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
             
            2 Thessalonians 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
             
             
            To summarize the chronology of events,
             
            1. There will be an apostasy from the faith, from which the man of sin will rise.
            2. This man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above God, sitting in the Temple of God (the Church), shewing himself to be God.
            3. The Thessalonians knew what was withholding the rise of this man of sin, because Paul had told them orally. 
            4. Once the thing that was withholding was removed, the wicked man of sin would be revealed.
            5. This man of sin will be consumed with the Spirit of Christ's mouth, and will be destroyed at his coming.
            Historically, we see that:
            1. It was the Church at Rome that apostatized from Biblical doctrine, allowing doctrines of demons to infect it, leading to the ascendancy of its Bishops to a place of tyrannical power.
            2. It was the Bishop of Rome who exalted himself above God, sitting in the visible Church (the Temple of God), claiming to be Christ's VICAR; nay, God himself (NOTE: the prefix anti means "in the place of," or "to oppose;" hence, the Bishop of Rome, by claiming to be Christ's "VICAR" (which also means "in the place of"), is readily identifying himself as the ANTI-Christ!).
            3. It was the Roman Empire that restrained the rise of the Bishop of Rome (Pope), because the two could not rule from Rome simultaneously.  Once Constantine moved the seat of the Empire to Byzantium (creating Constantinople) in 333, and after persecuting Christians was outlawed via the Edict of Milan in 313, and after the Bishop of Rome was "granted" sovereignty over the Latin and Italian territories via the fictitious "Donation" of Constantine, and once the Roman Empire was divided into 10 kingdoms (ten toes) via Barbarian invasions in the late 5th century, the Bishop's rise to all-powerful supremacy became inevitable.
            4. The saints throughout history recognized the mutation that occurred after the Empire was moved East, wherein the once humble pastors of the Church at Rome morphed into power-hungry, tyrannical, idolatrous, murderous Popes.  The early Church Fathers also knew that the man of sin would rise once the Empire fell, which is why they prayed for its continued existence.
            5. Therefore, (A) as the "let" was the Roman Empire that was "taken out of the way" in 333 A.D.; and (B) as Christians for centuries have recognized the man of sin to be the Bishops who ascended the Roman throne after the Empire's removal; and (C) as the mark of the beast, (D) the worshipping of the beast's image, (E) the murdering of the saints have all been going on for centuries; the consuming and destroying, then, with which the Beast and false prophet are met at Christ's coming, cannot refer to just ONE Pope and ONE false prophet, nor to their soul-less "offices," but to the entire succession of men. 
             
            "And the beast [a.k.a. man of sin, a.k.a. little horn, a.k.a. the Antichrist] was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
             
            See also Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's image, wherein ONE represents MANY.
             
             
            Keith
             
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: 4/3/2005 12:32:09 AM
            Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying

            Daniel,
             
            There are problems with your line of reasoning.  For example:
             
            When you say,
             
            "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into distruction [sic]..."
             
            ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man of sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints and trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's return? 
             
            As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot be destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS.  The men are cast into hell, not the office, which has no soul. 
             
            Keith
             
             
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Daniel
            Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
            Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying


            Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office of
            the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the Antichrist
            inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?

            If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist then
            each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
            judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he will
            be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
            brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point in
            time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there
            were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
            distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
            before Christ returns.

            It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this wouldn't
            mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which is the
            Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
            Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
            submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is predicted to
            fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while we
            can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray for
            the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.

            I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in there
            popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die before
            they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying the
            fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost (and
            we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I don't
            know enough about this but could it be argued that the process of
            becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of the
            Holy Ghost?

          • Daniel
            Keith, Thanks for your responce. I fully believe in what you are saying regarding the fact that often in prophesy one represents many. Like the word king can
            Message 5 of 22 , Apr 3 12:36 PM
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              Keith,

              Thanks for your responce. I fully believe in what you are saying
              regarding the fact that often in prophesy one represents many. Like
              the word king can refer to a line of kings. And I used to say that it
              is just the papacy but what I actually believe now is similar but I
              would go even furthur and say that, yes, the individual popes are the
              Antichrist but only inasmuch as they bear that office. So it is the
              individuals and the office not one or the other.

              Those arguements you listed about why the pope is the Antichrist are
              very solid and I agree with them (although I am not as well informed
              on it as you because some of the points you mentioned were new and
              interesting so I will try to remember them). I don't have any problem
              with your arguement that the pope is the Antichrist because I agree.
              I am a historicist too.

              As for the fact that the Beast will be thrown into the lake of fire,
              that is an interesting point. But if the pope repented from being the
              pope, he would no longer be the Antichrist. This is analogous to the
              vice lists in which it would be said that idolators and fornicators
              and so forth will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Although this is
              not a prophesy like Revelation, it has the same force in that
              anything the Bible says will come true. But does this mean that if
              someone is presently an idolator, he will never repent? The office
              doesn't have a soul but my position is that it isn't just the office
              but individuals who are popes as well as the office inasmuch as they
              hold the office, which means that if they reject the office, they are
              no longer the Antichrist. This understanding, I think does justice to
              the fact that the predicted Antichrist will be eternally tormented in
              hell.

              As for the forty two months, I believe in the day-year principle and
              so I believe that it isn't literal days but that each day equals a
              year as you probably do. I am not fully sure that I understand what
              you mean here so correct me if I answer in a way that indicates that
              I don't. Just because I believe that the decline of the papacy will
              be at one point in history, it would not logically follow that I
              would also believe that the period of persecution would only be three
              and a half literal years. Isn't it natural to think that the papacy
              would do this for 1260 years and then after that come to a decline.
              Although I reject the futurist dispensational approach to prophesy, I
              do not reject that there are some things which are future as all
              historicist would agree.

              Thanks again for your arguements and please tell me if I did not
              understand correctly. I am glad to see a place on the internet like
              this that is not just reformed in the modern sence but that is
              reformed like the actual puritans and reformers.

              In Christ,

              Daniel Drost
            • abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
              Keith, What do we do now that there is no living Pope? Do you believe there is no AntiChrist now? ... day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a
              Message 6 of 22 , Apr 3 1:52 PM
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                Keith,

                What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?" Do you believe
                there is no AntiChrist now?


                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                > Daniel,
                >
                > To elaborate further:
                >
                > 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that
                day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away
                first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                >
                > 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all
                that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth
                in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                >
                > 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with
                you, I told you these things?
                >
                > 2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he
                might be revealed in his time.
                >
                > 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already
                work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the
                way.
                >
                > 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom
                the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
                destroy with the brightness of his coming:
                >
                >
                > To summarize the chronology of events,
                >
                > There will be an apostasy from the faith, from which the man of
                sin will rise.
                > This man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above God, sitting
                in the Temple of God (the Church), shewing himself to be God.
                > The Thessalonians knew what was withholding the rise of this man
                of sin, because Paul had told them orally.
                > Once the thing that was withholding was removed, the wicked man of
                sin would be revealed.
                > This man of sin will be consumed with the Spirit of Christ's
                mouth, and will be destroyed at his coming.
                > Historically, we see that:
                > It was the Church at Rome that apostatized from Biblical doctrine,
                allowing doctrines of demons to infect it, leading to the ascendancy
                of its Bishops to a place of tyrannical power.
                > It was the Bishop of Rome who exalted himself above God, sitting
                in the visible Church (the Temple of God), claiming to be Christ's
                VICAR; nay, God himself (NOTE: the prefix anti means "in the place
                of," or "to oppose;" hence, the Bishop of Rome, by claiming to be
                Christ's "VICAR" (which also means "in the place of"), is readily
                identifying himself as the ANTI-Christ!).
                > It was the Roman Empire that restrained the rise of the Bishop of
                Rome (Pope), because the two could not rule from Rome
                simultaneously. Once Constantine moved the seat of the Empire to
                Byzantium (creating Constantinople) in 333, and after persecuting
                Christians was outlawed via the Edict of Milan in 313, and after the
                Bishop of Rome was "granted" sovereignty over the Latin and Italian
                territories via the fictitious "Donation" of Constantine, and once
                the Roman Empire was divided into 10 kingdoms (ten toes) via
                Barbarian invasions in the late 5th century, the Bishop's rise to
                all-powerful supremacy became inevitable.
                > The saints throughout history recognized the mutation that
                occurred after the Empire was moved East, wherein the once humble
                pastors of the Church at Rome morphed into power-hungry, tyrannical,
                idolatrous, murderous Popes. The early Church Fathers also knew
                that the man of sin would rise once the Empire fell, which is why
                they prayed for its continued existence.
                > Therefore, (A) as the "let" was the Roman Empire that was "taken
                out of the way" in 333 A.D.; and (B) as Christians for centuries
                have recognized the man of sin to be the Bishops who ascended the
                Roman throne after the Empire's removal; and (C) as the mark of the
                beast, (D) the worshipping of the beast's image, (E) the murdering
                of the saints have all been going on for centuries; the consuming
                and destroying, then, with which the Beast and false prophet are met
                at Christ's coming, cannot refer to just ONE Pope and ONE false
                prophet, nor to their soul-less "offices," but to the entire
                succession of men.
                >
                > "And the beast [a.k.a. man of sin, a.k.a. little horn, a.k.a. the
                Antichrist] was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought
                miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
                the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These
                both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
                >
                > See also Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's image,
                wherein ONE represents MANY.
                >
                >
                > Keith
                >
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: keith dotzler
                > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: 4/3/2005 12:32:09 AM
                > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                >
                >
                > Daniel,
                >
                > There are problems with your line of reasoning. For example:
                >
                > When you say,
                >
                > "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which the
                PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some
                resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into distruction
                [sic]..."
                >
                > ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical
                conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man of
                sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints and
                trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a
                literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's
                return?
                >
                > As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot be
                destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS. The men are cast
                into hell, not the office, which has no soul.
                >
                > Keith
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: Daniel
                > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
                > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                >
                >
                >
                > Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office
                of
                > the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the Antichrist
                > inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?
                >
                > If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist
                then
                > each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
                > judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he
                will
                > be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
                > brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point in
                > time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there
                > were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
                > distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
                > before Christ returns.
                >
                > It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this wouldn't
                > mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which is
                the
                > Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
                > Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
                > submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is predicted
                to
                > fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while we
                > can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray
                for
                > the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.
                >
                > I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in
                there
                > popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die
                before
                > they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying
                the
                > fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost
                (and
                > we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I
                don't
                > know enough about this but could it be argued that the process of
                > becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of the
                > Holy Ghost?
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                > ADVERTISEMENT
                > Children International
                > Would you give Hope to a Child in need?
                >
                > ·Click Here to meet a Girl
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                >
                > ·Click Here to meet a Boy
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                >
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                >
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                >
                > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
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              • Jason Robert Schuiling
                Certainly the Polish man named Karol Jozef Wojtyla(John Paul II) died yesterday, but the Papacy remains alive and well. This is in fact, I believe, one of its
                Message 7 of 22 , Apr 3 9:37 PM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Certainly the Polish man named Karol Jozef Wojtyla(John Paul II)
                  died yesterday, but the Papacy remains alive and well. This is in
                  fact, I believe, one of its strongest and most threatening positions
                  at this time. Any time there is a Papl vacancy the antichristian
                  threat is perhaps at its greatest potential, seeing that a man of
                  even greater inert wickedness than the last may fill that office.
                  However it seems that at this point in history that threat is
                  heightened. John Paul II was by most appearences a 'nice'
                  and 'peaceful' man. But he proccurred one thing for the Papacy which
                  exponentially increases its terror. No other pope had been as widely
                  traveled nor as broadly venerated by hoards of masses as had been
                  the most recent pope. JP2 superadded to the Papacy's 'universal
                  bishopric' a universal popularity. 'Everybody' loves the pope. If
                  ever there has been a time in which Romish prelate has had
                  opportunity to exercise universal tyrrany it is now. All it may take
                  is a man of charm and cunning to secure credulity and loyalty. We
                  MAY see, in my opinion, in this next 'successor of Peter' some of
                  the greatest deception and perhaps Papal violence that the world has
                  ever known. Kyrie Eleison.



                  Jason

                  --- In
                  covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "abusharmaranthkarimsuntha
                  harama" <abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Keith,
                  >
                  > What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?" Do you believe
                  > there is no AntiChrist now?
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                  > <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                  > > Daniel,
                  > >
                  > > To elaborate further:
                  > >
                  > > 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for
                  that
                  > day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away
                  > first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                  > >
                  > > 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all
                  > that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God
                  sitteth
                  > in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                  > >
                  > > 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with
                  > you, I told you these things?
                  > >
                  > > 2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he
                  > might be revealed in his time.
                  > >
                  > > 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already
                  > work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of
                  the
                  > way.
                  > >
                  > > 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
                  whom
                  > the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
                  > destroy with the brightness of his coming:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To summarize the chronology of events,
                  > >
                  > > There will be an apostasy from the faith, from which the man of
                  > sin will rise.
                  > > This man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above God, sitting
                  > in the Temple of God (the Church), shewing himself to be God.
                  > > The Thessalonians knew what was withholding the rise of this man
                  > of sin, because Paul had told them orally.
                  > > Once the thing that was withholding was removed, the wicked man
                  of
                  > sin would be revealed.
                  > > This man of sin will be consumed with the Spirit of Christ's
                  > mouth, and will be destroyed at his coming.
                  > > Historically, we see that:
                  > > It was the Church at Rome that apostatized from Biblical
                  doctrine,
                  > allowing doctrines of demons to infect it, leading to the
                  ascendancy
                  > of its Bishops to a place of tyrannical power.
                  > > It was the Bishop of Rome who exalted himself above God, sitting
                  > in the visible Church (the Temple of God), claiming to be Christ's
                  > VICAR; nay, God himself (NOTE: the prefix anti means "in the place
                  > of," or "to oppose;" hence, the Bishop of Rome, by claiming to be
                  > Christ's "VICAR" (which also means "in the place of"), is readily
                  > identifying himself as the ANTI-Christ!).
                  > > It was the Roman Empire that restrained the rise of the Bishop
                  of
                  > Rome (Pope), because the two could not rule from Rome
                  > simultaneously. Once Constantine moved the seat of the Empire to
                  > Byzantium (creating Constantinople) in 333, and after persecuting
                  > Christians was outlawed via the Edict of Milan in 313, and after
                  the
                  > Bishop of Rome was "granted" sovereignty over the Latin and
                  Italian
                  > territories via the fictitious "Donation" of Constantine, and once
                  > the Roman Empire was divided into 10 kingdoms (ten toes) via
                  > Barbarian invasions in the late 5th century, the Bishop's rise to
                  > all-powerful supremacy became inevitable.
                  > > The saints throughout history recognized the mutation that
                  > occurred after the Empire was moved East, wherein the once humble
                  > pastors of the Church at Rome morphed into power-hungry,
                  tyrannical,
                  > idolatrous, murderous Popes. The early Church Fathers also knew
                  > that the man of sin would rise once the Empire fell, which is why
                  > they prayed for its continued existence.
                  > > Therefore, (A) as the "let" was the Roman Empire that was "taken
                  > out of the way" in 333 A.D.; and (B) as Christians for centuries
                  > have recognized the man of sin to be the Bishops who ascended the
                  > Roman throne after the Empire's removal; and (C) as the mark of
                  the
                  > beast, (D) the worshipping of the beast's image, (E) the murdering
                  > of the saints have all been going on for centuries; the consuming
                  > and destroying, then, with which the Beast and false prophet are
                  met
                  > at Christ's coming, cannot refer to just ONE Pope and ONE false
                  > prophet, nor to their soul-less "offices," but to the entire
                  > succession of men.
                  > >
                  > > "And the beast [a.k.a. man of sin, a.k.a. little horn, a.k.a.
                  the
                  > Antichrist] was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought
                  > miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
                  > the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These
                  > both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
                  > >
                  > > See also Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's image,
                  > wherein ONE represents MANY.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Keith
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: keith dotzler
                  > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: 4/3/2005 12:32:09 AM
                  > > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Daniel,
                  > >
                  > > There are problems with your line of reasoning. For example:
                  > >
                  > > When you say,
                  > >
                  > > "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which
                  the
                  > PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some
                  > resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into distruction
                  > [sic]..."
                  > >
                  > > ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical
                  > conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man of
                  > sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints
                  and
                  > trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a
                  > literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's
                  > return?
                  > >
                  > > As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot be
                  > destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS. The men are cast
                  > into hell, not the office, which has no soul.
                  > >
                  > > Keith
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ----- Original Message -----
                  > > From: Daniel
                  > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
                  > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office
                  > of
                  > > the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the
                  Antichrist
                  > > inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?
                  > >
                  > > If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist
                  > then
                  > > each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
                  > > judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he
                  > will
                  > > be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
                  > > brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point
                  in
                  > > time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if
                  there
                  > > were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
                  > > distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
                  > > before Christ returns.
                  > >
                  > > It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this
                  wouldn't
                  > > mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which
                  is
                  > the
                  > > Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
                  > > Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
                  > > submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is
                  predicted
                  > to
                  > > fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while
                  we
                  > > can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray
                  > for
                  > > the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.
                  > >
                  > > I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in
                  > there
                  > > popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die
                  > before
                  > > they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying
                  > the
                  > > fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost
                  > (and
                  > > we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I
                  > don't
                  > > know enough about this but could it be argued that the process
                  of
                  > > becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of
                  the
                  > > Holy Ghost?
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                  > > ADVERTISEMENT
                  > > Children International
                  > > Would you give Hope to a Child in need?
                  > >
                  > > ·Click Here to meet a Girl
                  > > And Give Her Hope
                  > >
                  > > ·Click Here to meet a Boy
                  > > And Change His Life
                  > >
                  > > Learn More
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service.
                • abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                  Jason, I am not sure you understood what I meant. Is there an AntiChrist right now? Or, are there times when the AntiChrist is dead, and other times when the
                  Message 8 of 22 , Apr 4 6:04 AM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Jason,

                    I am not sure you understood what I meant. Is there an AntiChrist
                    right now? Or, are there times when the AntiChrist is dead, and
                    other times when the AntiChrist is alive?







                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Robert
                    Schuiling" <jrschuiling@y...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Certainly the Polish man named Karol Jozef Wojtyla(John Paul II)
                    > died yesterday, but the Papacy remains alive and well. This is in
                    > fact, I believe, one of its strongest and most threatening
                    positions
                    > at this time. Any time there is a Papl vacancy the antichristian
                    > threat is perhaps at its greatest potential, seeing that a man of
                    > even greater inert wickedness than the last may fill that office.
                    > However it seems that at this point in history that threat is
                    > heightened. John Paul II was by most appearences a 'nice'
                    > and 'peaceful' man. But he proccurred one thing for the Papacy
                    which
                    > exponentially increases its terror. No other pope had been as
                    widely
                    > traveled nor as broadly venerated by hoards of masses as had been
                    > the most recent pope. JP2 superadded to the Papacy's 'universal
                    > bishopric' a universal popularity. 'Everybody' loves the pope. If
                    > ever there has been a time in which Romish prelate has had
                    > opportunity to exercise universal tyrrany it is now. All it may
                    take
                    > is a man of charm and cunning to secure credulity and loyalty. We
                    > MAY see, in my opinion, in this next 'successor of Peter' some of
                    > the greatest deception and perhaps Papal violence that the world
                    has
                    > ever known. Kyrie Eleison.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Jason
                    >
                    > --- In
                    >
                    covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "abusharmaranthkarimsuntha
                    > harama" <abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama@y...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Keith,
                    > >
                    > > What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?" Do you believe
                    > > there is no AntiChrist now?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith
                    dotzler"
                    > > <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                    > > > Daniel,
                    > > >
                    > > > To elaborate further:
                    > > >
                    > > > 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for
                    > that
                    > > day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away
                    > > first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                    > > >
                    > > > 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above
                    all
                    > > that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God
                    > sitteth
                    > > in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                    > > >
                    > > > 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet
                    with
                    > > you, I told you these things?
                    > > >
                    > > > 2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he
                    > > might be revealed in his time.
                    > > >
                    > > > 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already
                    > > work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of
                    > the
                    > > way.
                    > > >
                    > > > 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
                    > whom
                    > > the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
                    > > destroy with the brightness of his coming:
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > To summarize the chronology of events,
                    > > >
                    > > > There will be an apostasy from the faith, from which the man
                    of
                    > > sin will rise.
                    > > > This man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above God,
                    sitting
                    > > in the Temple of God (the Church), shewing himself to be God.
                    > > > The Thessalonians knew what was withholding the rise of this
                    man
                    > > of sin, because Paul had told them orally.
                    > > > Once the thing that was withholding was removed, the wicked
                    man
                    > of
                    > > sin would be revealed.
                    > > > This man of sin will be consumed with the Spirit of Christ's
                    > > mouth, and will be destroyed at his coming.
                    > > > Historically, we see that:
                    > > > It was the Church at Rome that apostatized from Biblical
                    > doctrine,
                    > > allowing doctrines of demons to infect it, leading to the
                    > ascendancy
                    > > of its Bishops to a place of tyrannical power.
                    > > > It was the Bishop of Rome who exalted himself above God,
                    sitting
                    > > in the visible Church (the Temple of God), claiming to be
                    Christ's
                    > > VICAR; nay, God himself (NOTE: the prefix anti means "in the
                    place
                    > > of," or "to oppose;" hence, the Bishop of Rome, by claiming to
                    be
                    > > Christ's "VICAR" (which also means "in the place of"), is
                    readily
                    > > identifying himself as the ANTI-Christ!).
                    > > > It was the Roman Empire that restrained the rise of the Bishop
                    > of
                    > > Rome (Pope), because the two could not rule from Rome
                    > > simultaneously. Once Constantine moved the seat of the Empire
                    to
                    > > Byzantium (creating Constantinople) in 333, and after
                    persecuting
                    > > Christians was outlawed via the Edict of Milan in 313, and after
                    > the
                    > > Bishop of Rome was "granted" sovereignty over the Latin and
                    > Italian
                    > > territories via the fictitious "Donation" of Constantine, and
                    once
                    > > the Roman Empire was divided into 10 kingdoms (ten toes) via
                    > > Barbarian invasions in the late 5th century, the Bishop's rise
                    to
                    > > all-powerful supremacy became inevitable.
                    > > > The saints throughout history recognized the mutation that
                    > > occurred after the Empire was moved East, wherein the once
                    humble
                    > > pastors of the Church at Rome morphed into power-hungry,
                    > tyrannical,
                    > > idolatrous, murderous Popes. The early Church Fathers also knew
                    > > that the man of sin would rise once the Empire fell, which is
                    why
                    > > they prayed for its continued existence.
                    > > > Therefore, (A) as the "let" was the Roman Empire that
                    was "taken
                    > > out of the way" in 333 A.D.; and (B) as Christians for centuries
                    > > have recognized the man of sin to be the Bishops who ascended
                    the
                    > > Roman throne after the Empire's removal; and (C) as the mark of
                    > the
                    > > beast, (D) the worshipping of the beast's image, (E) the
                    murdering
                    > > of the saints have all been going on for centuries; the
                    consuming
                    > > and destroying, then, with which the Beast and false prophet are
                    > met
                    > > at Christ's coming, cannot refer to just ONE Pope and ONE false
                    > > prophet, nor to their soul-less "offices," but to the entire
                    > > succession of men.
                    > > >
                    > > > "And the beast [a.k.a. man of sin, a.k.a. little horn, a.k.a.
                    > the
                    > > Antichrist] was taken, and with him the false prophet that
                    wrought
                    > > miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had
                    received
                    > > the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These
                    > > both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
                    > > >
                    > > > See also Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's image,
                    > > wherein ONE represents MANY.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Keith
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: keith dotzler
                    > > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: 4/3/2005 12:32:09 AM
                    > > > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is
                    dying
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Daniel,
                    > > >
                    > > > There are problems with your line of reasoning. For example:
                    > > >
                    > > > When you say,
                    > > >
                    > > > "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which
                    > the
                    > > PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some
                    > > resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into
                    distruction
                    > > [sic]..."
                    > > >
                    > > > ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical
                    > > conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man
                    of
                    > > sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints
                    > and
                    > > trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a
                    > > literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's
                    > > return?
                    > > >
                    > > > As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot
                    be
                    > > destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS. The men are
                    cast
                    > > into hell, not the office, which has no soul.
                    > > >
                    > > > Keith
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > From: Daniel
                    > > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
                    > > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the
                    office
                    > > of
                    > > > the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the
                    > Antichrist
                    > > > inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?
                    > > >
                    > > > If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the
                    Antichrist
                    > > then
                    > > > each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
                    > > > judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that
                    he
                    > > will
                    > > > be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
                    > > > brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one
                    point
                    > in
                    > > > time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if
                    > there
                    > > > were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
                    > > > distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which
                    is
                    > > > before Christ returns.
                    > > >
                    > > > It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this
                    > wouldn't
                    > > > mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which
                    > is
                    > > the
                    > > > Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for
                    the
                    > > > Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery
                    which
                    > > > submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is
                    > predicted
                    > > to
                    > > > fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And
                    while
                    > we
                    > > > can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot
                    pray
                    > > for
                    > > > the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.
                    > > >
                    > > > I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and
                    in
                    > > there
                    > > > popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die
                    > > before
                    > > > they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not
                    denying
                    > > the
                    > > > fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy
                    Ghost
                    > > (and
                    > > > we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I
                    > > don't
                    > > > know enough about this but could it be argued that the process
                    > of
                    > > > becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of
                    > the
                    > > > Holy Ghost?
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                    > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                    > > > Children International
                    > > > Would you give Hope to a Child in need?
                    > > >
                    > > > ·Click Here to meet a Girl
                    > > > And Give Her Hope
                    > > >
                    > > > ·Click Here to meet a Boy
                    > > > And Change His Life
                    > > >
                    > > > Learn More
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > > >
                    > > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                    > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > > Service.
                  • keith dotzler
                    What do we do now that there is no living Pope? There is always a living Pope; hence, there is always a man of sin. The next one in the dynasty just hasn t
                    Message 9 of 22 , Apr 4 3:33 PM
                    • 0 Attachment
                       
                      What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?"
                       
                       
                      There is always a living Pope; hence, there is always a man of sin.  The next one in the dynasty just hasn't been formally crowned yet. 
                       
                      God has decreed that the Antichrist - a dynasty of "Latin men" (Lateinos) would:
                      • sit in the professing Church (the temple of God),
                      • wear out the saints,
                      • trample their blood under foot,
                      • speak great blasphemies against the Most High,
                      • think to change times and laws,
                      • cause small and great, rich and poor, to receive a mark, &c., &c. 
                      ......from the days of the removal of the Roman Empire, until the return of Jesus Christ. 
                       
                      That being the case, the succession is never broken, and the world is never "Antichrist-free," just because one man of sin dies, and some time elapses before the next one is crowned. Judas Iscariot was the son of perdition, even before Christ called him such in John 17:12...because he was prophesied to be so.  Even when he was first selected as an Apostle, before his betrayal of Christ, he was the son of perdition. He certainly didn't find himself "falling" into the role.
                       
                       
                      In Christ,
                      Keith
                       
                       
                       
                       
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: 4/3/2005 6:15:31 PM
                      Subject: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and Pope John Paul



                      Keith,

                      What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?" Do you believe
                      there is no AntiChrist now?


                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                      <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                      > Daniel,
                      >
                      > To elaborate further:
                      >
                      > 2 Thessalonians 2:3  Let no man deceive you by any means: for that
                      day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away
                      first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                      >
                      > 2 Thessalonians 2:4  Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all
                      that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth
                      in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                      >
                      > 2 Thessalonians 2:5  Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with
                      you, I told you these things?
                      >
                      > 2 Thessalonians 2:6  And now ye know what withholdeth that he
                      might be revealed in his time.
                      >
                      > 2 Thessalonians 2:7  For the mystery of iniquity doth already
                      work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the
                      way.
                      >
                      > 2 Thessalonians 2:8  And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom
                      the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
                      destroy with the brightness of his coming:
                      >
                      >
                      > To summarize the chronology of events,
                      >
                      > There will be an apostasy from the faith, from which the man of
                      sin will rise.
                      > This man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above God, sitting
                      in the Temple of God (the Church), shewing himself to be God.
                      > The Thessalonians knew what was withholding the rise of this man
                      of sin, because Paul had told them orally. 
                      > Once the thing that was withholding was removed, the wicked man of
                      sin would be revealed.
                      > This man of sin will be consumed with the Spirit of Christ's
                      mouth, and will be destroyed at his coming.
                      > Historically, we see that:
                      > It was the Church at Rome that apostatized from Biblical doctrine,
                      allowing doctrines of demons to infect it, leading to the ascendancy
                      of its Bishops to a place of tyrannical power.
                      > It was the Bishop of Rome who exalted himself above God, sitting
                      in the visible Church (the Temple of God), claiming to be Christ's
                      VICAR; nay, God himself (NOTE: the prefix anti means "in the place
                      of," or "to oppose;" hence, the Bishop of Rome, by claiming to be
                      Christ's "VICAR" (which also means "in the place of"), is readily
                      identifying himself as the ANTI-Christ!).
                      > It was the Roman Empire that restrained the rise of the Bishop of
                      Rome (Pope), because the two could not rule from Rome
                      simultaneously.  Once Constantine moved the seat of the Empire to
                      Byzantium (creating Constantinople) in 333, and after persecuting
                      Christians was outlawed via the Edict of Milan in 313, and after the
                      Bishop of Rome was "granted" sovereignty over the Latin and Italian
                      territories via the fictitious "Donation" of Constantine, and once
                      the Roman Empire was divided into 10 kingdoms (ten toes) via
                      Barbarian invasions in the late 5th century, the Bishop's rise to
                      all-powerful supremacy became inevitable.
                      > The saints throughout history recognized the mutation that
                      occurred after the Empire was moved East, wherein the once humble
                      pastors of the Church at Rome morphed into power-hungry, tyrannical,
                      idolatrous, murderous Popes.  The early Church Fathers also knew
                      that the man of sin would rise once the Empire fell, which is why
                      they prayed for its continued existence.
                      > Therefore, (A) as the "let" was the Roman Empire that was "taken
                      out of the way" in 333 A.D.; and (B) as Christians for centuries
                      have recognized the man of sin to be the Bishops who ascended the
                      Roman throne after the Empire's removal; and (C) as the mark of the
                      beast, (D) the worshipping of the beast's image, (E) the murdering
                      of the saints have all been going on for centuries; the consuming
                      and destroying, then, with which the Beast and false prophet are met
                      at Christ's coming, cannot refer to just ONE Pope and ONE false
                      prophet, nor to their soul-less "offices," but to the entire
                      succession of men. 
                      >
                      > "And the beast [a.k.a. man of sin, a.k.a. little horn, a.k.a. the
                      Antichrist] was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought
                      miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
                      the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These
                      both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
                      >
                      > See also Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's image,
                      wherein ONE represents MANY.
                      >
                      >
                      > Keith
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: keith dotzler
                      > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: 4/3/2005 12:32:09 AM
                      > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                      >
                      >
                      > Daniel,
                      >
                      > There are problems with your line of reasoning.  For example:
                      >
                      > When you say,
                      >
                      > "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which the
                      PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some
                      resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into distruction
                      [sic]..."
                      >
                      > ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical
                      conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man of
                      sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints and
                      trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a
                      literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's
                      return? 
                      >
                      > As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot be
                      destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS.  The men are cast
                      into hell, not the office, which has no soul. 
                      >
                      > Keith
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: Daniel
                      > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
                      > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office
                      of
                      > the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the Antichrist
                      > inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?
                      >
                      > If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist
                      then
                      > each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
                      > judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he
                      will
                      > be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
                      > brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point in
                      > time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there
                      > were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
                      > distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
                      > before Christ returns.
                      >
                      > It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this wouldn't
                      > mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which is
                      the
                      > Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
                      > Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
                      > submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is predicted
                      to
                      > fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while we
                      > can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray
                      for
                      > the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.
                      >
                      > I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in
                      there
                      > popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die
                      before
                      > they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying
                      the
                      > fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost
                      (and
                      > we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I
                      don't
                      > know enough about this but could it be argued that the process of
                      > becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of the
                      > Holy Ghost?
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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                      >
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                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                      >  
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                      > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >  
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                      Service.







                    • abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                      Keith, I know you are trying to help, but now there are two or more AntiChrist s (living Popes) alive, simultaneously??? ... sin. The next one in the dynasty
                      Message 10 of 22 , Apr 4 4:01 PM
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                        Keith,

                        I know you are trying to help, but now there are two or more
                        AntiChrist's (living Popes) alive, simultaneously???


                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                        <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                        >
                        > What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?"
                        >
                        >
                        > There is always a living Pope; hence, there is always a man of
                        sin. The next one in the dynasty just hasn't been formally crowned
                        yet.
                        >
                        > God has decreed that the Antichrist - a dynasty of "Latin men"
                        (Lateinos) would:
                        > sit in the professing Church (the temple of God),
                        > wear out the saints,
                        > trample their blood under foot,
                        > speak great blasphemies against the Most High,
                        > think to change times and laws,
                        > cause small and great, rich and poor, to receive a mark, &c., &c.
                        > ......from the days of the removal of the Roman Empire, until the
                        return of Jesus Christ.
                        >
                        > That being the case, the succession is never broken, and the world
                        is never "Antichrist-free," just because one man of sin dies, and
                        some time elapses before the next one is crowned. Judas Iscariot was
                        the son of perdition, even before Christ called him such in John
                        17:12...because he was prophesied to be so. Even when he was first
                        selected as an Apostle, before his betrayal of Christ, he was the
                        son of perdition. He certainly didn't find himself "falling" into
                        the role.
                        >
                        >
                        > In Christ,
                        > Keith
                        > http://www.thebeastunmasked.com
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                        > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: 4/3/2005 6:15:31 PM
                        > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and Pope John
                        Paul
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Keith,
                        >
                        > What do we do now that there is no living "Pope?" Do you believe
                        > there is no AntiChrist now?
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                        > <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                        > > Daniel,
                        > >
                        > > To elaborate further:
                        > >
                        > > 2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for
                        that
                        > day [of Christ] shall not come, except there come a falling away
                        > first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
                        > >
                        > > 2 Thessalonians 2:4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all
                        > that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God
                        sitteth
                        > in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
                        > >
                        > > 2 Thessalonians 2:5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with
                        > you, I told you these things?
                        > >
                        > > 2 Thessalonians 2:6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he
                        > might be revealed in his time.
                        > >
                        > > 2 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already
                        > work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of
                        the
                        > way.
                        > >
                        > > 2 Thessalonians 2:8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed,
                        whom
                        > the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall
                        > destroy with the brightness of his coming:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > To summarize the chronology of events,
                        > >
                        > > There will be an apostasy from the faith, from which the man of
                        > sin will rise.
                        > > This man of sin will oppose and exalt himself above God, sitting
                        > in the Temple of God (the Church), shewing himself to be God.
                        > > The Thessalonians knew what was withholding the rise of this man
                        > of sin, because Paul had told them orally.
                        > > Once the thing that was withholding was removed, the wicked man
                        of
                        > sin would be revealed.
                        > > This man of sin will be consumed with the Spirit of Christ's
                        > mouth, and will be destroyed at his coming.
                        > > Historically, we see that:
                        > > It was the Church at Rome that apostatized from Biblical
                        doctrine,
                        > allowing doctrines of demons to infect it, leading to the
                        ascendancy
                        > of its Bishops to a place of tyrannical power.
                        > > It was the Bishop of Rome who exalted himself above God, sitting
                        > in the visible Church (the Temple of God), claiming to be Christ's
                        > VICAR; nay, God himself (NOTE: the prefix anti means "in the place
                        > of," or "to oppose;" hence, the Bishop of Rome, by claiming to be
                        > Christ's "VICAR" (which also means "in the place of"), is readily
                        > identifying himself as the ANTI-Christ!).
                        > > It was the Roman Empire that restrained the rise of the Bishop
                        of
                        > Rome (Pope), because the two could not rule from Rome
                        > simultaneously. Once Constantine moved the seat of the Empire to
                        > Byzantium (creating Constantinople) in 333, and after persecuting
                        > Christians was outlawed via the Edict of Milan in 313, and after
                        the
                        > Bishop of Rome was "granted" sovereignty over the Latin and
                        Italian
                        > territories via the fictitious "Donation" of Constantine, and once
                        > the Roman Empire was divided into 10 kingdoms (ten toes) via
                        > Barbarian invasions in the late 5th century, the Bishop's rise to
                        > all-powerful supremacy became inevitable.
                        > > The saints throughout history recognized the mutation that
                        > occurred after the Empire was moved East, wherein the once humble
                        > pastors of the Church at Rome morphed into power-hungry,
                        tyrannical,
                        > idolatrous, murderous Popes. The early Church Fathers also knew
                        > that the man of sin would rise once the Empire fell, which is why
                        > they prayed for its continued existence.
                        > > Therefore, (A) as the "let" was the Roman Empire that was "taken
                        > out of the way" in 333 A.D.; and (B) as Christians for centuries
                        > have recognized the man of sin to be the Bishops who ascended the
                        > Roman throne after the Empire's removal; and (C) as the mark of
                        the
                        > beast, (D) the worshipping of the beast's image, (E) the murdering
                        > of the saints have all been going on for centuries; the consuming
                        > and destroying, then, with which the Beast and false prophet are
                        met
                        > at Christ's coming, cannot refer to just ONE Pope and ONE false
                        > prophet, nor to their soul-less "offices," but to the entire
                        > succession of men.
                        > >
                        > > "And the beast [a.k.a. man of sin, a.k.a. little horn, a.k.a.
                        the
                        > Antichrist] was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought
                        > miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received
                        > the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These
                        > both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
                        > >
                        > > See also Daniel's interpretation of Nebuchadnezzar's image,
                        > wherein ONE represents MANY.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Keith
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: keith dotzler
                        > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: 4/3/2005 12:32:09 AM
                        > > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Daniel,
                        > >
                        > > There are problems with your line of reasoning. For example:
                        > >
                        > > When you say,
                        > >
                        > > "This is clearly refering [sic] to one point in time in which
                        the
                        > PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if there were some
                        > resurection [sic] of them at that time) will fall into distruction
                        > [sic]..."
                        > >
                        > > ...are you willing to follow that thought to its logical
                        > conclusion, and tell us the forty-two months that the beast/man of
                        > sin/antichrist/little horn was prophesied to wear out the saints
                        and
                        > trample their blood under foot is, therefore, restricted to a
                        > literal 42 months, being the last 3 1/2 years before Christ's
                        > return?
                        > >
                        > > As I said in my first post in this thread, the OFFICE cannot be
                        > destroyed without destroying the office-HOLDERS. The men are cast
                        > into hell, not the office, which has no soul.
                        > >
                        > > Keith
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: Daniel
                        > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: 4/2/2005 10:04:46 PM
                        > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Don't the biblical predictions of Antichrist refer to the office
                        > of
                        > > the Pope in such a way that John Paul the Second is the
                        Antichrist
                        > > inasmuch as he bears the office of pope?
                        > >
                        > > If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist
                        > then
                        > > each of them would have to have individually experienced God's
                        > > judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he
                        > will
                        > > be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the
                        > > brightness of His coming. This is clearly refering to one point
                        in
                        > > time in which the PAPACY (as opposed to ALL THE POPES as if
                        there
                        > > were some resurection of them at that time) will fall into
                        > > distruction before the worldwide millenial gospel peace which is
                        > > before Christ returns.
                        > >
                        > > It seems to me that he could reject his office. And this
                        wouldn't
                        > > mean that God's decree is failing since it is the papacy which
                        is
                        > the
                        > > Antichrist. It would be sinful on the other hand to pray for the
                        > > Papacy (the office) to turn into a calvinistic presbytery which
                        > > submits to scripture alone because the Anchrist which is
                        predicted
                        > to
                        > > fall is the Papacy and so it will never be righteous. And while
                        we
                        > > can pray for individual Roman Catholics to repent we cannot pray
                        > for
                        > > the Catholic Church to repent since it is the Great Whore.
                        > >
                        > > I am not denying the fact that all of the popes are evil and in
                        > there
                        > > popish state would end up in hell (unless they repent and die
                        > before
                        > > they had the chance to reject the office). I am also not denying
                        > the
                        > > fact that if the Pope did commit the blasphemy of the Holy Ghost
                        > (and
                        > > we can't put that past him) that he shouldn't be prayed for. I
                        > don't
                        > > know enough about this but could it be argued that the process
                        of
                        > > becoming a pope involves an action which would be blasphemy of
                        the
                        > > Holy Ghost?
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > > ADVERTISEMENT
                        > > Children International
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                        > > ·Click Here to meet a Girl
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                        > > And Change His Life
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                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                        > >
                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > Service.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
                        > ADVERTISEMENT
                        > Children International
                        > Would you give Hope to a Child in need?
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                        > ·Click Here to meet a Girl
                        > And Give Her Hope
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                        > And Change His Life
                        >
                        > Learn More
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >
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                        Service.
                      • J. Parnell McCarter
                        Edgar, you are quite right that the FPCS is descended from the Church of Scotland following the persecuting times. But let it be remembered that a majority of
                        Message 11 of 22 , Apr 4 4:16 PM
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                           Edgar, you are quite right that the FPCS is descended from the Church of Scotland following the persecuting times.  But let it be remembered that a majority of the persecuted Covenanters from the persecuting times chose to join the Church of Scotland of the 1690s.  That included almost all the Covenanter ministers.

                           

                          It was only a minority that chose to be dissenters and not join after the persecuting times. 

                           

                          Therefore, you cannot claim a monopoly on those that endured persecution during the persecuting times for their dissent during those times.

                           

                          - Parnell McCarter

                           

                           

                        • keith dotzler
                          Daniel, But if the pope repented from being the pope, he would no longer be the Antichrist. This has never happened in the history of the Papacy...nor will
                          Message 12 of 22 , Apr 4 4:35 PM
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                            Daniel,
                             
                            "But if the pope repented from being the pope, he would no longer be the Antichrist."
                             
                            This has never happened in the history of the Papacy...nor will it.  Their power-hungry pride won't allow it.
                             
                            "As for the forty two months, I believe in the day-year principle and so I believe that it isn't literal days but that each day equals a year as you probably do. I am not fully sure that I understand what you mean..."
                             
                            Here's what I meant.  Perhaps I read too much into what you said.  You previously said:  "If the individual popes (as bad as they are) were the Antichrist then each of them would have to have individually experienced God's judgement predicted in Second Theselonians 2 which says that he will be consumed by the spirit of His mouth and destroyed by the brightness of His coming..."
                             
                            In order for each individual Pope NOT to be the Antichrist, the destruction of the man of sin by the brightness of Christ's coming would have to be limited, then, to the one Pope reigning at that time.  Since one man of sin couldn't possibly reign in the "temple of God" for 1260 years, the 42 months would have to be [erroneously] construed as 1260 literal days, or 3 1/2 years. 
                             
                            Since we know the man of sin is synonymous with the little horn, the Beast from the sea, the scarlet-coloured Beast, the Destroyer, and the Antichrist -- being a dynasty of kings, not one man -- we know then, that at Christ's coming, they are all destroyed at the same time.  The destruction of the man of sin is not limited to one man, nor is the "office" cast into the lake of fire. 
                             
                            The Papal power comes to a decline at one point in history...I agree.
                            The 1260 "days" are days of years...I agree.
                             
                            Keith
                             
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Daniel
                            Sent: 4/3/2005 3:36:58 PM
                            Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Pope John Paul is dying


                            Keith,

                            Thanks for your responce. I fully believe in what you are saying
                            regarding the fact that often in prophesy one represents many. Like
                            the word king can refer to a line of kings. And I used to say that it
                            is just the papacy but what I actually believe now is similar but I
                            would go even furthur and say that, yes, the individual popes are the
                            Antichrist but only inasmuch as they bear that office. So it is the
                            individuals and the office not one or the other.

                            Those arguements you listed about why the pope is the Antichrist are
                            very solid and I agree with them (although I am not as well informed
                            on it as you because some of the points you mentioned were new and
                            interesting so I will try to remember them). I don't have any problem
                            with your arguement that the pope is the Antichrist because I agree.
                            I am a historicist too.

                            As for the fact that the Beast will be thrown into the lake of fire,
                            that is an interesting point. But if the pope repented from being the
                            pope, he would no longer be the Antichrist. This is analogous to the
                            vice lists in which it would be said that idolators and fornicators
                            and so forth will not enter the kingdom of heaven. Although this is
                            not a prophesy like Revelation, it has the same force in that
                            anything the Bible says will come true. But does this mean that if
                            someone is presently an idolator, he will never repent? The office
                            doesn't have a soul but my position is that it isn't just the office
                            but individuals who are popes as well as the office inasmuch as they
                            hold the office, which means that if they reject the office, they are
                            no longer the Antichrist. This understanding, I think does justice to
                            the fact that the predicted Antichrist will be eternally tormented in
                            hell.

                            As for the forty two months, I believe in the day-year principle and
                            so I believe that it isn't literal days but that each day equals a
                            year as you probably do. I am not fully sure that I understand what
                            you mean here so correct me if I answer in a way that indicates that
                            I don't. Just because I believe that the decline of the papacy will
                            be at one point in history, it would not logically follow that I
                            would also believe that the period of persecution would only be three
                            and a half literal years. Isn't it natural to think that the papacy
                            would do this for 1260 years and then after that come to a decline.
                            Although I reject the futurist dispensational approach to prophesy, I
                            do not reject that there are some things which are future as all
                            historicist would agree.

                            Thanks again for your arguements and please tell me if I did not
                            understand correctly. I am glad to see a place on the internet like
                            this that is not just reformed in the modern sence but that is
                            reformed like the actual puritans and reformers.

                            In Christ,

                            Daniel Drost




                          • keith dotzler
                            Are there two or more Bishops alive at any given moment? Were there two or more priests alive at any given moment in Old Testament days? Were there two or
                            Message 13 of 22 , Apr 4 6:34 PM
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                              Are there two or more Bishops alive at any given moment?  Were there two or more priests alive at any given moment in Old Testament days?  Were there two or more kings alive at any given moment in Old Testament days...and even today?  Are there two or more Presidents alive at any given moment?
                               
                              To answer your question:  YES! 
                               
                              But.....THE CROWN CAN ONLY BE WORN BY ONE AT A TIME.
                               
                               
                              Keith
                               
                               
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              Sent: 4/4/2005 8:05:08 PM
                              Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and Pope John Paul



                              Keith,

                              I know you are trying to help, but now there are two or more
                              AntiChrist's (living Popes) alive, simultaneously???
                            • abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                              Keith, Thank you for your opinion, but one is not a President until he is elected so. For example, one could not say that President Clinton was president, in
                              Message 14 of 22 , Apr 4 7:09 PM
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                                Keith,

                                Thank you for your opinion, but one is not a President until he is
                                elected so. For example, one could not say that President Clinton
                                was president, in the years before his election. King Louie was not
                                King Louie while he was a Prince. The AntiChrist is not AntiChrist,
                                until he is seated in the temple of God, showing himself that he is
                                God, unless of course you look at the AntiChrist as some sort of
                                Damien figure out of the Exorcist. That of course would not play
                                very well, in the scheme of multiples of men, who are the Man of Sin.

                                If I am off base please feel free to correct me.




                                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                                <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                                > Are there two or more Bishops alive at any given moment? Were
                                there two or more priests alive at any given moment in Old Testament
                                days? Were there two or more kings alive at any given moment in Old
                                Testament days...and even today? Are there two or more Presidents
                                alive at any given moment?
                                >
                                > To answer your question: YES!
                                >
                                > But.....THE CROWN CAN ONLY BE WORN BY ONE AT A TIME.
                                >
                                >
                                > Keith
                                >
                                >
                                > ----- Original Message -----
                                > From: abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                                > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                > Sent: 4/4/2005 8:05:08 PM
                                > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and Pope
                                John Paul
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Keith,
                                >
                                > I know you are trying to help, but now there are two or more
                                > AntiChrist's (living Popes) alive, simultaneously???
                              • keith dotzler
                                What exactly is your point in all of this? ... From: abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com Sent: 4/4/2005 10:53:38 PM
                                Message 15 of 22 , Apr 4 8:24 PM
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                                  What exactly is your point in all of this? 
                                   
                                   
                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  Sent: 4/4/2005 10:53:38 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and Pope John Paul



                                  Keith,

                                  Thank you for your opinion, but one is not a President until he is
                                  elected so. For example, one could not say that President Clinton
                                  was president, in the years before his election. King Louie was not
                                  King Louie while he was a Prince. The AntiChrist is not AntiChrist,
                                  until he is seated in the temple of God, showing himself that he is
                                  God, unless of course you look at the AntiChrist as some sort of
                                  Damien figure out of the Exorcist. That of course would not play
                                  very well, in the scheme of multiples of men, who are the Man of Sin.

                                  If I am off base please feel free to correct me.




                                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                                  <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                                  > Are there two or more Bishops alive at any given moment?  Were
                                  there two or more priests alive at any given moment in Old Testament
                                  days?  Were there two or more kings alive at any given moment in Old
                                  Testament days...and even today?  Are there two or more Presidents
                                  alive at any given moment?
                                  >
                                  > To answer your question:  YES!
                                  >
                                  > But.....THE CROWN CAN ONLY BE WORN BY ONE AT A TIME.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Keith
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > From: abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                                  > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Sent: 4/4/2005 8:05:08 PM
                                  > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and Pope
                                  John Paul
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Keith,
                                  >
                                  > I know you are trying to help, but now there are two or more
                                  > AntiChrist's (living Popes) alive, simultaneously???







                                • johnnieburgessjr
                                  1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Apr 5 5:08 PM
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                                    1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have
                                    heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many
                                    antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.

                                    John referes to many antichrists.


                                    --- In
                                    covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "abusharmaranthkarimsuntha
                                    harama" <abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Keith,
                                    >
                                    > Thank you for your opinion, but one is not a President until he is
                                    > elected so. For example, one could not say that President Clinton
                                    > was president, in the years before his election. King Louie was
                                    not
                                    > King Louie while he was a Prince. The AntiChrist is not
                                    AntiChrist,
                                    > until he is seated in the temple of God, showing himself that he
                                    is
                                    > God, unless of course you look at the AntiChrist as some sort of
                                    > Damien figure out of the Exorcist. That of course would not play
                                    > very well, in the scheme of multiples of men, who are the Man of
                                    Sin.
                                    >
                                    > If I am off base please feel free to correct me.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                                    > <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                                    > > Are there two or more Bishops alive at any given moment? Were
                                    > there two or more priests alive at any given moment in Old
                                    Testament
                                    > days? Were there two or more kings alive at any given moment in
                                    Old
                                    > Testament days...and even today? Are there two or more Presidents
                                    > alive at any given moment?
                                    > >
                                    > > To answer your question: YES!
                                    > >
                                    > > But.....THE CROWN CAN ONLY BE WORN BY ONE AT A TIME.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Keith
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                                    > > From: abusharmaranthkarimsunthaharama
                                    > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > Sent: 4/4/2005 8:05:08 PM
                                    > > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation]No AntiChrist Alive and
                                    Pope
                                    > John Paul
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > Keith,
                                    > >
                                    > > I know you are trying to help, but now there are two or more
                                    > > AntiChrist's (living Popes) alive, simultaneously???
                                  • Larry Bump
                                    ... He also said they were present/alive in the first century, long before there was a pope.
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Apr 5 6:06 PM
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                                      johnnieburgessjr wrote:
                                      >
                                      > 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have
                                      > heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many
                                      > antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
                                      >
                                      > John referes to many antichrists.

                                      He also said they were present/alive in the first century, long before
                                      there was a pope.
                                    • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                                      And there are many that have the spirit of Anti-Christ: Jehovah s Witlesses, the Morons, the Muslims, & etc...But THE Anti-Christ par excelancy is that pompous
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Apr 5 7:11 PM
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                                        And there are many that have the spirit of Anti-Christ: Jehovah's
                                        Witlesses, the Morons, the Muslims, & etc...But THE Anti-Christ par
                                        excelancy is that pompous whore that sits in Rome riding the beast
                                        and fornicating with the world and so-called Protestants...(see the
                                        list of names of the Evangelicals & Catholics Together)

                                        Levity in midst of seriousness "sometimes" helps calm the air,

                                        Edgar

                                        ;-)


                                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Larry Bump
                                        <lbump@b...> wrote:
                                        > johnnieburgessjr wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > 1 John 2:18 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have
                                        > > heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many
                                        > > antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
                                        > >
                                        > > John referes to many antichrists.
                                        >
                                        > He also said they were present/alive in the first century, long
                                        before
                                        > there was a pope.
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