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Pope John Paul is dying

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  • Benjamin Hart
    It looks like the pope is dying; this article says he s had heart failure and septic shock due to a urinary infection.
    Message 1 of 11 , Apr 1, 2005
      It looks like the pope is dying; this article says he's had heart failure and septic shock due to a urinary infection.
       
       
      Last night we prayed for the Pope in family worship - first for his conversion to Christ (if he be not found in him), and second for his health. 
       
      I've spoken to others who think we should pray for the death and destruction of the Pope. 
       
      Who, if either, is correct? 
       
      -Ben


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    • Darren Harr
      Well now, if that is not interesting to think about. I think I will go with my knee jerk reaction on this and quote Do unto others as you would have done unto
      Message 2 of 11 , Apr 1, 2005
        Well now, if that is not interesting to think about. I think I will go with my knee jerk reaction on this and quote "Do unto others as you would have done unto you."        

        Benjamin Hart <benhartmail@...> wrote:
        It looks like the pope is dying; this article says he's had heart failure and septic shock due to a urinary infection.
         
         
        Last night we prayed for the Pope in family worship - first for his conversion to Christ (if he be not found in him), and second for his health. 
         
        I've spoken to others who think we should pray for the death and destruction of the Pope. 
         
        Who, if either, is correct? 
         
        -Ben


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      • gmw
        ... destruction of the Pope. ... I guess it depends on whether or not you believe that he holds the office of Antichrist, the Man of Sin, the Son of PERDITION.
        Message 3 of 11 , Apr 1, 2005
          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Hart
          <benhartmail@y...> wrote:

          > I've spoken to others who think we should pray for the death and
          destruction of the Pope.
          >
          > Who, if either, is correct?

          I guess it depends on whether or not you believe that he holds the
          office of Antichrist, the Man of Sin, the Son of PERDITION.

          gmw.
        • sn_phillip
          Here is a section from George Gillespie on who we are to pray for from: He states very clearly that we are not to pray for the Pope. Of The True, Real, And
          Message 4 of 11 , Apr 1, 2005
            Here is a section from George Gillespie on who we are to pray for
            from: He states very clearly that we are not to pray for the Pope.


            Of The True, Real, And Safe Grounds Of Encouragement To Believe In
            Jesus Christ; Or, Upon What Warrants A Sinner May Adventure To Rest
            And Rely Upon Christ For Salvation.

            by Rev. George Gillespie
            Scottish Commissioner To the Assembly of Divines At Westminster.




            Secondly, Christ's intention to die for all men and for the whole
            world, that is, for all sorts of sinners in the world, and so for
            sinners of my kind, may every poor sinner in particular think within
            himself. Here is an universal encouragement unto all from a true and
            real ground, and drawn from the will and intention, as well as from
            the power and all-sufficiency of Christ, which I shall make good from
            Scripture; for he hath died for all sorts of persons; there is no
            condition excluded. For this I take 1 Tim. ii. 6, "Who gave himself a
            ransom for all;" so, ver. 4, "Who will have all men to be saved." The
            meaning must needs be of all sorts, not of all persons; for besides
            that the Apostle's all can be no more than Christ's many, - Matt, xx.
            28, "The Son of man came to give his life a ransom for many," - this
            very text hath abundance of light to give itself, if we look to the
            context either before or behind: before, there is an exhortation to
            pray "for all men," ver. 1; which, although the Arminians make an
            argument that all men is meant of all persons, and not only of all
            sorts, both in that verse and vet. 4, 6, because, say they, we ought
            to PRAY for all men universally pro singulis generum, and not only
            for all sorts; yet it is indeed an argument for the contrary. For to
            PRAY for all men, without exception of any person, is not commanded,
            but we find the contrary commanded. Jeremiah was forbidden to PRAY or
            make intercession for the obstinate, incorrigible Jews, Jer. vii. 16;
            xi. 14; xiv. 11. God would not have Samuel to mourn for Saul after he
            was rejected of the Lord, 1 Sam. xvi. 1; and we ought not to PRAY for
            such as sin unto death, i.e., the sin of blasphemy against the Holy
            Ghost, 1 John v. 16. Paul is so far from praying for Alexander the
            coppersmith, that he imprecates the vengeance of God upon him, 2 Tim.
            iv. 14. We may not PRAY for the POPE, WHO is the GREAT ANTICHRIST and
            SON OF PERDITION; neither may we PRAY for, but against Babylon,
            especially after the people of God are out of her. We are bidden PRAY
            for our enemies, but not for the malicious, incorrigible enemies of
            Christ. Wherefore, when the Apostle bids us PRAY "for all men," his
            meaning is, that we should not exclude no degree nor kind of men,
            great or small, Jew or Gentile, bond or free, &c.; and so he doth
            upon the matter explain himself in the very next words, "For kings
            and for all in authority." He saith not for "all kings," but he will
            not have us exclude kings nor queens, as such, from our prayers, nor
            any other subordinate rulers. When he saith "All that are in
            authority," he means any kind of lawful authority; for we may not
            PRAY for those who are in any unlawful or usurped authority in the
            church, - archbishops, bishops, deans, archdeacons, &c., which prayer
            were an approbation of their unlawful callings in the church. I do
            not say that we may not PRAY for the persons of any archbishops,
            bishops, &c., but we may not PRAY for them as clothed with such an
            office or authority; as we are there bid PRAY for kings quatenus
            kings, that we may live under them a quiet and peaceable life in all
            godliness and honesty; so that a king or emperor, as he is clothed
            with such authority, may not be excluded from our prayers; but if we
            look upon all kings and emperors personally, individually, or
            numerically, so it cannot hold true that we ought to pray for all
            that are in authority, otherwise the ancient church had been bound to
            pray for Julian the apostate.



            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Darren Harr
            <ddharr@y...> wrote:
            > Well now, if that is not interesting to think about. I think I will
            go with my knee jerk reaction on this and quote "Do unto others as
            you would have done unto you."
            >
            > Benjamin Hart <benhartmail@y...> wrote:It looks like the pope is
            dying; this article says he's had heart failure and septic shock due
            to a urinary infection.
            >
            > http://news.yahoo.com/news?
            tmpl=story&e=1&u=/nm/20050401/ts_nm/pope_dc&sid=84439559
            >
            > Last night we prayed for the Pope in family worship - first for his
            conversion to Christ (if he be not found in him), and second for his
            health.
            >
            > I've spoken to others who think we should pray for the death and
            destruction of the Pope.
            >
            > Who, if either, is correct?
            >
            > -Ben
            >
            >
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          • Ben Hart
            Thanks for the Gillespie quote. Perhaps we oughtn t pray for the salvation of the Pope afterall. It is however hard to look at a guy who is debilitated with
            Message 5 of 11 , Apr 2, 2005
              Thanks for the Gillespie quote. Perhaps we oughtn't pray for the
              salvation of the Pope afterall. It is however hard to look at a guy
              who is debilitated with Parkinson's disease and not have compassion on
              him; but that is probably more of a judgment for the degree to which
              he has led people astray. I don't think there is a necessary tension
              between the human side of compassion and the satisfaction with God's
              justice.
            • Crazy Calvinist
              would any of us even be aware of this old guy with Parkinsons desease if he were not the pope? I ll save my compassion in this case for those who suffer in
              Message 6 of 11 , Apr 2, 2005

                would any of us even be aware of this old guy with Parkinsons desease if he were not the pope?


                I'll save my compassion in this case for those who  suffer in various ways,    and hold firm to the truth despite that.  And as you say  haven't led  multitudes into hell before him.


                And   if that sounds harsh,  I don't see why anyone should feel any different towards the pope just because he's on his deathbed,  to when he was physically active.  


                ~Deejay


                Saturday, April 2, 2005, 3:09:06 PM, you wrote:


                  

                >  Thanks for the Gillespie quote.  Perhaps we oughtn't pray for the

                >  salvation of the Pope afterall.  It is however hard to look at a guy

                >  who is debilitated with Parkinson's disease and not have compassion on

                >  him; but that is probably more of a judgment for the degree to which

                >  he has led people astray.  I don't think there is a necessary tension

                >  between the human side of compassion and the satisfaction with God's

                >  justice.  



              • Cheryl
                Call me soft-hearted or even soft-headed if you will. I know that the Man of Sin is destined for hell. I would be too if not for the saving grace of Christ.
                Message 7 of 11 , Apr 2, 2005
                  Call me soft-hearted or even soft-headed if you will.  I know that the Man of Sin is destined for hell.  I would be too if not for the saving grace of Christ.  It is the horror of what is before him that causes me to feel pity on his behalf and profound thankfulness that I will be spared that fate.
                   
                  Cheryl
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 6:35 AM
                  Subject: Re[2]: [Covenanted Reformation] Pope John Paul is dying

                  would any of us even be aware of this old guy with Parkinsons desease if he were not the pope?


                  I'll save my compassion in this case for those who  suffer in various ways,    and hold firm to the truth despite that.  And as you say  haven't led  multitudes into hell before him.


                  And   if that sounds harsh,  I don't see why anyone should feel any different towards the pope just because he's on his deathbed,  to when he was physically active.  


                  ~Deejay


                  Saturday, April 2, 2005, 3:09:06 PM, you wrote:


                    

                  >  Thanks for the Gillespie quote.  Perhaps we oughtn't pray for the

                  >  salvation of the Pope afterall.  It is however hard to look at a guy

                  >  who is debilitated with Parkinson's disease and not have compassion on

                  >  him; but that is probably more of a judgment for the degree to which

                  >  he has led people astray.  I don't think there is a necessary tension

                  >  between the human side of compassion and the satisfaction with God's

                  >  justice.  




                • gmw
                  You would be a cold-hearted beast if you didn t feel some pity and horror for your fellow humans in such a state. Yet, we may take comfort that God is
                  Message 8 of 11 , Apr 2, 2005
                    You would be a cold-hearted beast if you didn't feel some pity and
                    horror for your fellow humans in such a state. Yet, we may take
                    comfort that God is sovereign, He has done whatsoever has pleased Him,
                    and yes, we may take comfort and even joy in the destruction of the
                    enemies of Christ and His Church.

                    The Lord is Righteous in All His Doings.

                    May He have mercy on His Church,
                    gmw.



                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Cheryl"
                    <cherylgrenon@l...> wrote:
                    > Call me soft-hearted or even soft-headed if you will. I know that
                    the Man of Sin is destined for hell. I would be too if not for the
                    saving grace of Christ. It is the horror of what is before him that
                    causes me to feel pity on his behalf and profound thankfulness that I
                    will be spared that fate.
                    >
                    > Cheryl
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: Crazy Calvinist
                    > To: Ben Hart
                    > Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 6:35 AM
                    > Subject: Re[2]: [Covenanted Reformation] Pope John Paul is dying
                    >
                    >
                    > would any of us even be aware of this old guy with Parkinsons
                    desease if he were not the pope?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > I'll save my compassion in this case for those who suffer in
                    various ways, and hold firm to the truth despite that. And as you
                    say haven't led multitudes into hell before him.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > And if that sounds harsh, I don't see why anyone should feel
                    any different towards the pope just because he's on his deathbed, to
                    when he was physically active.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > ~Deejay
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Saturday, April 2, 2005, 3:09:06 PM, you wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > > Thanks for the Gillespie quote. Perhaps we oughtn't pray for the
                    >
                    > > salvation of the Pope afterall. It is however hard to look at
                    a guy
                    >
                    > > who is debilitated with Parkinson's disease and not have
                    compassion on
                    >
                    > > him; but that is probably more of a judgment for the degree to
                    which
                    >
                    > > he has led people astray. I don't think there is a necessary
                    tension
                    >
                    > > between the human side of compassion and the satisfaction with
                    God's
                    >
                    > > justice.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Cheryl
                    Dear Jerry, As you know, I have a rather large brood. At least one of my brood has gone off the rails and is at present demonstrating a life of unrepentant
                    Message 9 of 11 , Apr 2, 2005
                      Dear Jerry,
                       
                      As you know, I have a rather large brood.  At least one of my brood has gone off the rails and is at present demonstrating a life of unrepentant sin, despite many prayers and warnings.  If she doesn't repent of her wickedness, some day she will be condemned to hell and declared an enemy of Christ, His Church, and therefore my enemy as well.   If it falls out that way, some day I will be glad to see all the enemies of Christ destroyed, including my child.  But that day hasn't arrived yet, and so I still grieve, remembering my own sins.  If God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, neither shall I.
                       
                      You are right.  The only comfort is to be found in the sovereign will of God and the knowledge that He does all things for our good and His glory.
                       
                      Cheryl
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: gmw
                      Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 8:17 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Pope John Paul is dying



                      You would be a cold-hearted beast if you didn't feel some pity and
                      horror for your fellow humans in such a state.  Yet, we may take
                      comfort that God is sovereign, He has done whatsoever has pleased Him,
                      and yes, we may take comfort and even joy in the destruction of the
                      enemies of Christ and His Church.

                      The Lord is Righteous in All His Doings.

                      May He have mercy on His Church,
                      gmw.

                    • Whit
                      Those would be my thoughts as well. Whit ... brood has gone off the rails and is at present demonstrating a life of unrepentant sin, despite many prayers and
                      Message 10 of 11 , Apr 2, 2005
                        Those would be my thoughts as well.

                        Whit

                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Cheryl"
                        <cherylgrenon@l...> wrote:
                        > Dear Jerry,
                        >
                        > As you know, I have a rather large brood. At least one of my
                        brood has gone off the rails and is at present demonstrating a life
                        of unrepentant sin, despite many prayers and warnings. If she
                        doesn't repent of her wickedness, some day she will be condemned to
                        hell and declared an enemy of Christ, His Church, and therefore my
                        enemy as well. If it falls out that way, some day I will be glad
                        to see all the enemies of Christ destroyed, including my child. But
                        that day hasn't arrived yet, and so I still grieve, remembering my
                        own sins. If God takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked,
                        neither shall I.
                        >
                        > You are right. The only comfort is to be found in the sovereign
                        will of God and the knowledge that He does all things for our good
                        and His glory.
                        >
                        > Cheryl
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: gmw
                        > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Saturday, April 02, 2005 8:17 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Pope John Paul is dying
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > You would be a cold-hearted beast if you didn't feel some pity
                        and
                        > horror for your fellow humans in such a state. Yet, we may take
                        > comfort that God is sovereign, He has done whatsoever has
                        pleased Him,
                        > and yes, we may take comfort and even joy in the destruction of
                        the
                        > enemies of Christ and His Church.
                        >
                        > The Lord is Righteous in All His Doings.
                        >
                        > May He have mercy on His Church,
                        > gmw.
                      • Whit
                        ... Unfortunately, it is not clear to some including me. What is he saying by not praying for the Pope? Pope as in the 1700-year office or the person holding
                        Message 11 of 11 , Apr 2, 2005
                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "sn_phillip"
                          <sn_phillip@y...> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > Here is a section from George Gillespie on who we are to pray for
                          > from: He states very clearly that we are not to pray for the Pope.
                          >

                          Unfortunately, it is not clear to some including me. What is he
                          saying by not praying for the Pope? Pope as in the 1700-year office
                          or the person holding the office? Are we not to pray for our
                          enemies as Christ instructed us to?

                          Whit
                          >
                          > Of The True, Real, And Safe Grounds Of Encouragement To Believe In
                          > Jesus Christ; Or, Upon What Warrants A Sinner May Adventure To
                          Rest
                          > And Rely Upon Christ For Salvation.
                          >
                          > by Rev. George Gillespie
                          > Scottish Commissioner To the Assembly of Divines At Westminster.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Secondly, Christ's intention to die for all men and for the whole
                          > world, that is, for all sorts of sinners in the world, and so for
                          > sinners of my kind, may every poor sinner in particular think
                          within
                          > himself. Here is an universal encouragement unto all from a true
                          and
                          > real ground, and drawn from the will and intention, as well as
                          from
                          > the power and all-sufficiency of Christ, which I shall make good
                          from
                          > Scripture; for he hath died for all sorts of persons; there is no
                          > condition excluded. For this I take 1 Tim. ii. 6, "Who gave
                          himself a
                          > ransom for all;" so, ver. 4, "Who will have all men to be saved."
                          The
                          > meaning must needs be of all sorts, not of all persons; for
                          besides
                          > that the Apostle's all can be no more than Christ's many, - Matt,
                          xx.
                          > 28, "The Son of man came to give his life a ransom for many," -
                          this
                          > very text hath abundance of light to give itself, if we look to
                          the
                          > context either before or behind: before, there is an exhortation
                          to
                          > pray "for all men," ver. 1; which, although the Arminians make an
                          > argument that all men is meant of all persons, and not only of all
                          > sorts, both in that verse and vet. 4, 6, because, say they, we
                          ought
                          > to PRAY for all men universally pro singulis generum, and not only
                          > for all sorts; yet it is indeed an argument for the contrary. For
                          to
                          > PRAY for all men, without exception of any person, is not
                          commanded,
                          > but we find the contrary commanded. Jeremiah was forbidden to PRAY
                          or
                          > make intercession for the obstinate, incorrigible Jews, Jer. vii.
                          16;
                          > xi. 14; xiv. 11. God would not have Samuel to mourn for Saul after
                          he
                          > was rejected of the Lord, 1 Sam. xvi. 1; and we ought not to PRAY
                          for
                          > such as sin unto death, i.e., the sin of blasphemy against the
                          Holy
                          > Ghost, 1 John v. 16. Paul is so far from praying for Alexander the
                          > coppersmith, that he imprecates the vengeance of God upon him, 2
                          Tim.
                          > iv. 14. We may not PRAY for the POPE, WHO is the GREAT ANTICHRIST
                          and
                          > SON OF PERDITION; neither may we PRAY for, but against Babylon,
                          > especially after the people of God are out of her. We are bidden
                          PRAY
                          > for our enemies, but not for the malicious, incorrigible enemies
                          of
                          > Christ. Wherefore, when the Apostle bids us PRAY "for all men,"
                          his
                          > meaning is, that we should not exclude no degree nor kind of men,
                          > great or small, Jew or Gentile, bond or free, &c.; and so he doth
                          > upon the matter explain himself in the very next words, "For kings
                          > and for all in authority." He saith not for "all kings," but he
                          will
                          > not have us exclude kings nor queens, as such, from our prayers,
                          nor
                          > any other subordinate rulers. When he saith "All that are in
                          > authority," he means any kind of lawful authority; for we may not
                          > PRAY for those who are in any unlawful or usurped authority in the
                          > church, - archbishops, bishops, deans, archdeacons, &c., which
                          prayer
                          > were an approbation of their unlawful callings in the church. I do
                          > not say that we may not PRAY for the persons of any archbishops,
                          > bishops, &c., but we may not PRAY for them as clothed with such an
                          > office or authority; as we are there bid PRAY for kings quatenus
                          > kings, that we may live under them a quiet and peaceable life in
                          all
                          > godliness and honesty; so that a king or emperor, as he is clothed
                          > with such authority, may not be excluded from our prayers; but if
                          we
                          > look upon all kings and emperors personally, individually, or
                          > numerically, so it cannot hold true that we ought to pray for all
                          > that are in authority, otherwise the ancient church had been bound
                          to
                          > pray for Julian the apostate.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Darren Harr
                          > <ddharr@y...> wrote:
                          > > Well now, if that is not interesting to think about. I think I
                          will
                          > go with my knee jerk reaction on this and quote "Do unto others as
                          > you would have done unto you."
                          > >
                          > > Benjamin Hart <benhartmail@y...> wrote:It looks like the pope is
                          > dying; this article says he's had heart failure and septic shock
                          due
                          > to a urinary infection.
                          > >
                          > > http://news.yahoo.com/news?
                          > tmpl=story&e=1&u=/nm/20050401/ts_nm/pope_dc&sid=84439559
                          > >
                          > > Last night we prayed for the Pope in family worship - first for
                          his
                          > conversion to Christ (if he be not found in him), and second for
                          his
                          > health.
                          > >
                          > > I've spoken to others who think we should pray for the death and
                          > destruction of the Pope.
                          > >
                          > > Who, if either, is correct?
                          > >
                          > > -Ben
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ---------------------------------
                          > > Do you Yahoo!?
                          > > Better first dates. More second dates. Yahoo! Personals
                          > > Yahoo! Groups SponsorADVERTISEMENT
                          > > Children InternationalWould you give Hope to a Child in need?
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                          > >
                          > > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                          > >
                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > >
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                          > Service.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
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