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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos

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  • Larry Bump
    ... From: Dan Fraas ... I have joked about a Blue Banner on my chest, over my heart. The biggest problem is that it would be obscured
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Dan Fraas" <fraasrd@...>
      >
      > I once knew a guy who got "Sola Fide" tatooed on his arm

      I have joked about a Blue Banner on my chest, over my heart. The biggest
      problem is that it would be obscured 90% by fur.
      I put tattoos in the same category as non-reconstructive plastic surgery.
      It may well be a symptom of a sinful heart and bears looking into, but is
      not in se sinful. Other body "art" such as piercings and scarification
      would also be in this group.

      Larry



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    • Susan Nye Ferrell
      I have a kind of funny experience that relates to this. When we were visiting the church which has registered a call to Glenn. One of the dear ladies (younger
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
        I have a kind of funny experience that relates to this.
          When we were visiting the church which has registered a call to Glenn. One of the dear ladies (younger than me actually) and one of the 18 year olds (not her own) "cornered me" in one of those "ah ha, we'll settle this question and get to learn more about the candidates wife" in one fell swoop.
             The "lady" I think, knowing "how conservative" I am, probably thought she had a shoe in support for her anti-tattoo position. The young girl, thinking I was fairly hip compared to some, probably thought I would give her support.
            So, the question comes, what about "girl" getting tattoo? I say with all the appropriate disclaimers that I'm no expert, and this is only based on my limited understanding of the matter BUT...pretty much what has been said on this list so far answer wise. Mentioned that yes, there are cultural negatives, the reality that that image will age and change and warp and fade and what is thought beautiful now by the girl might be a real bane in years to come...BUT I wouldn't tell her it was a sin or give her a biblical proof text saying it was one.
           She breathes a sigh, smiles at the "lady" in mini victory and we start walking to our cars. I ask in passing, what were you wanting to have done and where? OH, a cherubim she says, it's all I've ever wanted and I've been planning that particular design for years.....
         
                  AH HA....Susan gets to please everyone without the usual sinful man pleasing at the core...NO dear girl you cannot HAVE a cherubim. The lady smiles thinking I've come to my anti-tattoo senses, when I explain graven images, now they ARE another thing all together!
            So as for now, our young congregant, is still without mark for she has not come up with a substitute. What impressed me about the girl in question, is she seemed seriously concerned that she not violate the 2nd commandment and not have a graven image.
        She "got" what I was saying, which I have seen older and betters in the churches of my childhood, not "get" at all..
              Susan
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 8:22 AM
        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Dan Fraas" <fraasrd@...>
        >
        > I once knew a guy who got "Sola Fide" tatooed on his arm

        I have joked about a Blue Banner on my chest, over my heart.  The biggest
        problem is that it would be obscured 90% by fur.
        I put tattoos in the same category as non-reconstructive plastic surgery.
        It may well be a symptom of a sinful heart and bears looking into, but is
        not in se sinful.  Other body "art" such as piercings and scarification
        would also be in this group.

        Larry



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      • Larry Bump
        ... I don t understand why a cherub (cherubim is plural) would be a graven image? It does not purport to be God, and they were commanded to be made for the
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
          Susan Nye Ferrell wrote:
          > NO dear girl you cannot HAVE a
          > cherubim. The lady smiles thinking I've come to my anti-tattoo senses,
          > when I explain graven images, now they ARE another thing all together!

          I don't understand why a cherub (cherubim is plural) would be a graven
          image? It does not purport to be God, and they were commanded to be
          made for the Ark.

          Larry
        • Susan Nye Ferrell
          Hi Larry, Thank you for your comment and question. Well I may be wrong in my understanding of graven images and will happily look into the matter further when
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
            Hi Larry,
                  Thank you for your comment and question.
                  Well I may be wrong in my understanding of graven images and will happily look into the  matter further when I am not busily looking into "dental implants vs crown and bridge work" (and still searching for the elusive web page which will tell me how to truly have painless dentistry?)
                  It was/has been my understanding that at least our forbearers in the Scottish reformation would have frowned upon any of the heavenly beings, such as are currently a mystery to us, being made into images. If the cross is considered by most a graven image, then I don't see how a cherubim (yes, it is plural, she may have wanted more than one) slides in under the radar.
                 The case you are mentioning and the creation of such images in the temple were directly commanded by God in a particular case and instance.
                 I would think we would not want to make images of angelic beings, devils or demons or any such supernatural images. If you are able to find me good solid biblical/ church history evidence of why a cherub or cherubim are not graven images than I would be glad to pass that one and make one 18 year old very happy.
                 Sincerely, Susan
            ----- Original Message -----
            Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 12:59 PM
            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos



            Susan Nye Ferrell wrote:
            > NO dear girl you cannot HAVE a
            > cherubim. The lady smiles thinking I've come to my anti-tattoo senses,
            > when I explain graven images, now they ARE another thing all together!

            I don't understand why a cherub (cherubim is plural) would be a graven
            image?  It does not purport to be God, and they were commanded to be
            made for the Ark.

            Larry


          • Robbie Stark
            Funny this topic should come up, I am THIS (Fingers almost touching) close to having Romans 6:23 Inked up On my upper right arm, Maybe even Romans 3:23 on
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
              Funny this topic should come up, I am "THIS" (Fingers almost touching) close
              to having Romans 6:23 "Inked up" On my upper right arm, Maybe even Romans
              3:23 on the other, I work out of Two Gold's Gyms (Three this summer) with
              over 9,000 Members, (With the Islip Gym opening on the South Shore of Long
              Island in June, it will be over 12,000 members),
              I think it will be a great way to introduce the Gospel to a fertile field of
              the potentially Elect.

              With a one-on-one business and an hour of undivided attention I already have
              given the Gospel to many, this will, perhaps, draw more in, as they ask what
              Romans 6:23, or Romans 3:23 means. You'd be AMAZED how the Gospel can stop,
              dead in their tracks, many a steroid bloated Muscle-Head. I have the
              credibility of Competing for 18 years and I have been a Strength
              Coach/Personal Trainer for some 22 years.

              I have not decided yet, mainly because I have this "Issue" with Needles and
              Tat's don't come with erasers. But, I know no Scripture verse that would
              compel me otherwise

              Just one mans opinion, from the Chalk clouded platform in the back of the
              Gym.

              Robbie

              (Who, by God's Grace will be competing again this summer)


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Irene Flewelling" <myjoyisthelord@...>
              To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 2:44 PM
              Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos


              >
              >
              >
              > Yeah, I think it's a matter of Christian liberty, but
              > also of modesty.. since anything that makes other
              > people stare at you because it's so immoderate (for
              > instance tattoos all over your arms) is immodest,
              > besides which, it doesn't look good :D I think it's
              > also probably a large issue of discretion, for
              > instance, an unmarried person should consider the fact
              > that if they ever get married their body will no
              > longer be only their own and they should pretty
              > carefully consider a permanent decision that a future
              > spouse may have to live with like it or not.. (my Dad
              > reminded me I should think about this, even in as
              > comparitively a "small" question, in my mind at least,
              > as getting my ears pierced)
              > Just some thoughts.
              > ~~Irene
              >
              >>>>
              > How would you all look at this? Is it a case of
              > Christian
              > liberty (as long as they do it moderately and
              > modestly) or is it a
              > moral issue and therefore sinful or not?
              >>>>
              >
              > =====
              > ~~~~
              > I waited for the Lord
              > He stooped and heard my cry
              > He brought me from the pit
              > Out of the dungeon mire
              > My feet set on a rock
              > My footsteps made secure
              > My lips He gave a song
              > A song to praise our God
              >
              > ______________________________________________________________________
              > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
              >
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              >
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            • Cheryl
              This thread reminds me of a girl I met a few summers ago on a seminar I was taking. She had some very interesting and unique tattoos on her body, one of which
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
                This thread reminds me of a girl I met a few summers ago on a seminar I was taking.  She had some very interesting and unique tattoos on her body, one of which was a gecko lizard around her foot.  It actually looked quite neat.  However, the beautiful Celtic style circular design that she had around her navel was "wrecked" by stretchmarks from subsequent childbearing.  Heheheh.  And as some of the ladies probably know, stretch marks aren't necessarily limited just to pregnant bellies.  You just never know what will get wrecked and where in the process of having children.
                 
                Irene's point about modesty is well taken.  Societal standards do shift over time so that things that were once considered scandalous no longer raise an eyebrow.  An example of this is how the Victorian/Edwardian standard of floor length gowns and the scandal of an exposed ankle raises nary an eyebrow now as hemlines, even on the most modest women, can be as high as mid-calf to just below the knee.  In some Christian circles, it is scandalous to have your ears pierced *once* on each side, never mind two.  Now it isn't uncommon to see many women with two piercings per ear.  I'm one of them.  I always thought it looked kind of cute and so to celebrate my midlife crisis, I went out and had a second piercing added to each ear.  However, putting in say, 14 piercings, and having some of them flash on and off in neon lights would cross the line of being done for the sake of being attractive and more for the sake of being noticed and thereby immodest. 
                 
                This is one of those things in which there are no hard bright lines that we can draw.  Yet at the same time, heart motivation of the individual considering these things and also the perception that others will have of them needs to be considered.
                 
                I am on my fourth, fifth, and sixth teens and they definitely like to skate close to the edge when it comes to making a fashion statement and provoking comment and it often requires wisdom to know how to deal with these things.  One day I was in my usual hurry to get all the kids in the van to take them to church and didn't notice til we arrived that two of my boys had decided to wear black eye-liner to church.  Well, I had a fit at them, not so much because I was afraid of what others in the church were going to think, but more because as I told them, "I am NOT raising a bunch of pansies in THIS HOUSEHOLD.  Go wash it off and never let me catch you putting on makeup like a girl again!"  The fact that they were allergic to the eyeliner and their eyes broke out and were extremely itchy helped as did the subtle suggestion that it made them look queer -- an affront to their masculinity.  Then there was the time one son decided to try wearing black nail polish.  I merely raised my eyebrows at him and didn't say a word.  But I did hide my nail polish remover.  After about 3 days, he begged his father to drive him into town so he could buy his own bottle of polish remover, and he's never worn the nail polish again.
                 
                Tatoos, body art, body piercings, etc., are all means that reformed Christian young people may use to test the limits of what is and isn't permissible and it has been my experience, at least, that if it is handled wisely and not in a reactionary manner, that it can become a profitable means of talking about heart issues related to these things.
                 
                Those are just some of my thoughts on the matter.
                 
                Cheryl G.
              • Larry Bump
                ... Don t hold your breath, I think. Anything with this much nerve bulk is simply going to hurt unless they put you out. And that is worse, in some ways. ...
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
                  Susan Nye Ferrell wrote:

                  > Hi Larry,
                  > Thank you for your comment and question.
                  > Well I may be wrong in my understanding of graven images and will
                  > happily look into the matter further when I am not busily looking into
                  > "dental implants vs crown and bridge work" (and still searching for the
                  > elusive web page which will tell me how to truly have painless dentistry?)

                  Don't hold your breath, I think. Anything with this much nerve bulk is
                  simply going to hurt unless they put you out. And that is worse, in
                  some ways.


                  > It was/has been my understanding that at least our forbearers in
                  > the Scottish reformation would have frowned upon any of the heavenly
                  > beings, such as are currently a mystery to us, being made into images.
                  > If the cross is considered by most a graven image, then I don't see how
                  > a cherubim (yes, it is plural, she may have wanted more than one) slides
                  > in under the radar.

                  I wasn't trying to be contentious, I just can't see the sin in the
                  making. The cross is considered by some to be illegitimate, simply
                  because it points to/represents an aspect or work of Jesus. Therefore,
                  it represents the Redeemer as such, hence violates the second
                  commandment. This is similar to the reason dove statues or stained
                  glass windows are illegitimate.
                  (I am not so convinced of the problem of a bare cross vs a crucifix,
                  though obedient. i fail to see where a bare cross is bad, but the
                  icthus is OK.)

                  The angel, again, is simply a creature. What warrant is there to call
                  it sin? The fact that it is a heavenly "thing" fails on the point of
                  the angels are known to traverse the Earth, doing the work of God.

                  I simply don't see that there is warrant to call it a sin. I can't
                  point to chapter/verse proving that it is *not* a sin anymore than I can
                  prove that chocolate milk is allowed, nor coloring with wax crayons evil.

                  > The case you are mentioning and the creation of such images in the
                  > temple were directly commanded by God in a particular case and instance.

                  Right, but it would still need a direct warrant to call it sin. I doubt
                  that the lady in question is looking for something to "focus her
                  worship" or to "use as an object of prayer to improve concentration" or
                  to "venerate", such things, of course, being worship given to a creature.

                  > I would think we would not want to make images of angelic beings,
                  > devils or demons or any such supernatural images.


                  I certainly wouldn't want a tattoo of a demon, but I don't see that it
                  is either an idol, nor prying into the secret things of God to draw a
                  purported demon. It would (in my view) have to be one or the other to
                  call it sin. It would be *inaccurate*, but not a sin. Much like the
                  early pictures of elephants by naturalists that had only heard reports
                  (much the same situation, eh?)

                  It isn't sin to make images, else all pictures and statues would be
                  sinful. It is the object and use of the image that is diagnostic.

                  > If you are able to find me good solid biblical/ church
                  > history evidence of why a cherub or cherubim are not
                  > graven images than I would be glad to pass that one and
                  > make one 18 year old very happy.

                  Again, the burden of proof is on the one calling something sin. This is
                  the essence of Christian Liberty, that we cannot forbid without warrant.


                  Larry
                • Martin
                  Hi Robbie, I suppose this is off-topic; however, are you a competitive powerlifter or bodybuilder? Martin
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
                    Hi Robbie,

                    I suppose this is off-topic; however, are you a competitive powerlifter
                    or bodybuilder?

                    Martin

                    Robbie Stark wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Funny this topic should come up, I am "THIS" (Fingers almost touching)
                    > close
                    > to having Romans 6:23 "Inked up" On my upper right arm, Maybe even Romans
                    > 3:23 on the other, I work out of Two Gold's Gyms (Three this summer) with
                    > over 9,000 Members, (With the Islip Gym opening on the South Shore of Long
                    > Island in June, it will be over 12,000 members),
                    > I think it will be a great way to introduce the Gospel to a fertile
                    > field of
                    > the potentially Elect.
                    >
                    > With a one-on-one business and an hour of undivided attention I already
                    > have
                    > given the Gospel to many, this will, perhaps, draw more in, as they ask
                    > what
                    > Romans 6:23, or Romans 3:23 means. You'd be AMAZED how the Gospel can
                    > stop,
                    > dead in their tracks, many a steroid bloated Muscle-Head. I have the
                    > credibility of Competing for 18 years and I have been a Strength
                    > Coach/Personal Trainer for some 22 years.
                    >
                    > I have not decided yet, mainly because I have this "Issue" with Needles and
                    > Tat's don't come with erasers. But, I know no Scripture verse that would
                    > compel me otherwise
                    >
                    > Just one mans opinion, from the Chalk clouded platform in the back of the
                    > Gym.
                    >
                    > Robbie
                    >
                    > (Who, by God's Grace will be competing again this summer)
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Irene Flewelling" <myjoyisthelord@...>
                    > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 2:44 PM
                    > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos
                    >
                    >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yeah, I think it's a matter of Christian liberty, but
                    > > also of modesty.. since anything that makes other
                    > > people stare at you because it's so immoderate (for
                    > > instance tattoos all over your arms) is immodest,
                    > > besides which, it doesn't look good :D I think it's
                    > > also probably a large issue of discretion, for
                    > > instance, an unmarried person should consider the fact
                    > > that if they ever get married their body will no
                    > > longer be only their own and they should pretty
                    > > carefully consider a permanent decision that a future
                    > > spouse may have to live with like it or not.. (my Dad
                    > > reminded me I should think about this, even in as
                    > > comparitively a "small" question, in my mind at least,
                    > > as getting my ears pierced)
                    > > Just some thoughts.
                    > > ~~Irene
                    > >
                    > >>>>
                    > > How would you all look at this? Is it a case of
                    > > Christian
                    > > liberty (as long as they do it moderately and
                    > > modestly) or is it a
                    > > moral issue and therefore sinful or not?
                    > >>>>
                    > >
                    > > =====
                    > > ~~~~
                    > > I waited for the Lord
                    > > He stooped and heard my cry
                    > > He brought me from the pit
                    > > Out of the dungeon mire
                    > > My feet set on a rock
                    > > My footsteps made secure
                    > > My lips He gave a song
                    > > A song to praise our God
                    > >
                    > > ______________________________________________________________________
                    > > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
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                    > >
                    > >
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Robbie Stark
                    Powerlifter, 220 s Raw (No supportive equipment), Lifetime Drug-Free. Robbie ... From: Martin To:
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
                      Powerlifter, 220's Raw (No supportive equipment), Lifetime Drug-Free.

                      Robbie





                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Martin" <anonfwrd@...>
                      To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 7:29 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos


                      >
                      > Hi Robbie,
                      >
                      > I suppose this is off-topic; however, are you a competitive powerlifter
                      > or bodybuilder?
                      >
                      > Martin
                      >
                      > Robbie Stark wrote:
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> Funny this topic should come up, I am "THIS" (Fingers almost touching)
                      >> close
                      >> to having Romans 6:23 "Inked up" On my upper right arm, Maybe even Romans
                      >> 3:23 on the other, I work out of Two Gold's Gyms (Three this summer) with
                      >> over 9,000 Members, (With the Islip Gym opening on the South Shore of
                      >> Long
                      >> Island in June, it will be over 12,000 members),
                      >> I think it will be a great way to introduce the Gospel to a fertile
                      >> field of
                      >> the potentially Elect.
                      >>
                      >> With a one-on-one business and an hour of undivided attention I already
                      >> have
                      >> given the Gospel to many, this will, perhaps, draw more in, as they ask
                      >> what
                      >> Romans 6:23, or Romans 3:23 means. You'd be AMAZED how the Gospel can
                      >> stop,
                      >> dead in their tracks, many a steroid bloated Muscle-Head. I have the
                      >> credibility of Competing for 18 years and I have been a Strength
                      >> Coach/Personal Trainer for some 22 years.
                      >>
                      >> I have not decided yet, mainly because I have this "Issue" with Needles
                      >> and
                      >> Tat's don't come with erasers. But, I know no Scripture verse that would
                      >> compel me otherwise
                      >>
                      >> Just one mans opinion, from the Chalk clouded platform in the back of the
                      >> Gym.
                      >>
                      >> Robbie
                      >>
                      >> (Who, by God's Grace will be competing again this summer)
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ----- Original Message -----
                      >> From: "Irene Flewelling" <myjoyisthelord@...>
                      >> To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                      >> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 2:44 PM
                      >> Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > Yeah, I think it's a matter of Christian liberty, but
                      >> > also of modesty.. since anything that makes other
                      >> > people stare at you because it's so immoderate (for
                      >> > instance tattoos all over your arms) is immodest,
                      >> > besides which, it doesn't look good :D I think it's
                      >> > also probably a large issue of discretion, for
                      >> > instance, an unmarried person should consider the fact
                      >> > that if they ever get married their body will no
                      >> > longer be only their own and they should pretty
                      >> > carefully consider a permanent decision that a future
                      >> > spouse may have to live with like it or not.. (my Dad
                      >> > reminded me I should think about this, even in as
                      >> > comparitively a "small" question, in my mind at least,
                      >> > as getting my ears pierced)
                      >> > Just some thoughts.
                      >> > ~~Irene
                      >> >
                      >> >>>>
                      >> > How would you all look at this? Is it a case of
                      >> > Christian
                      >> > liberty (as long as they do it moderately and
                      >> > modestly) or is it a
                      >> > moral issue and therefore sinful or not?
                      >> >>>>
                      >> >
                      >> > =====
                      >> > ~~~~
                      >> > I waited for the Lord
                      >> > He stooped and heard my cry
                      >> > He brought me from the pit
                      >> > Out of the dungeon mire
                      >> > My feet set on a rock
                      >> > My footsteps made secure
                      >> > My lips He gave a song
                      >> > A song to praise our God
                      >> >
                      >> > ______________________________________________________________________
                      >> > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                      >> ADVERTISEMENT
                      >> click here
                      >> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129h8rujp/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1109883877/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                      >>
                      >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                      >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                      >>
                      >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                      >>
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                      >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
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                      >>
                      >
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                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                      >
                    • Martin
                      220 s? Is that your squat, bench, or deadlift? Martin
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
                        220's? Is that your squat, bench, or deadlift?

                        Martin

                        Robbie Stark wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Powerlifter, 220's Raw (No supportive equipment), Lifetime Drug-Free.
                        >
                        > Robbie
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "Martin" <anonfwrd@...>
                        > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 7:29 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos
                        >
                        >
                        > >
                        > > Hi Robbie,
                        > >
                        > > I suppose this is off-topic; however, are you a competitive powerlifter
                        > > or bodybuilder?
                        > >
                        > > Martin
                        > >
                        > > Robbie Stark wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> Funny this topic should come up, I am "THIS" (Fingers almost touching)
                        > >> close
                        > >> to having Romans 6:23 "Inked up" On my upper right arm, Maybe even
                        > Romans
                        > >> 3:23 on the other, I work out of Two Gold's Gyms (Three this summer)
                        > with
                        > >> over 9,000 Members, (With the Islip Gym opening on the South Shore of
                        > >> Long
                        > >> Island in June, it will be over 12,000 members),
                        > >> I think it will be a great way to introduce the Gospel to a fertile
                        > >> field of
                        > >> the potentially Elect.
                        > >>
                        > >> With a one-on-one business and an hour of undivided attention I already
                        > >> have
                        > >> given the Gospel to many, this will, perhaps, draw more in, as they ask
                        > >> what
                        > >> Romans 6:23, or Romans 3:23 means. You'd be AMAZED how the Gospel can
                        > >> stop,
                        > >> dead in their tracks, many a steroid bloated Muscle-Head. I have the
                        > >> credibility of Competing for 18 years and I have been a Strength
                        > >> Coach/Personal Trainer for some 22 years.
                        > >>
                        > >> I have not decided yet, mainly because I have this "Issue" with Needles
                        > >> and
                        > >> Tat's don't come with erasers. But, I know no Scripture verse that would
                        > >> compel me otherwise
                        > >>
                        > >> Just one mans opinion, from the Chalk clouded platform in the back
                        > of the
                        > >> Gym.
                        > >>
                        > >> Robbie
                        > >>
                        > >> (Who, by God's Grace will be competing again this summer)
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> ----- Original Message -----
                        > >> From: "Irene Flewelling" <myjoyisthelord@...>
                        > >> To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                        > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 2:44 PM
                        > >> Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> > Yeah, I think it's a matter of Christian liberty, but
                        > >> > also of modesty.. since anything that makes other
                        > >> > people stare at you because it's so immoderate (for
                        > >> > instance tattoos all over your arms) is immodest,
                        > >> > besides which, it doesn't look good :D I think it's
                        > >> > also probably a large issue of discretion, for
                        > >> > instance, an unmarried person should consider the fact
                        > >> > that if they ever get married their body will no
                        > >> > longer be only their own and they should pretty
                        > >> > carefully consider a permanent decision that a future
                        > >> > spouse may have to live with like it or not.. (my Dad
                        > >> > reminded me I should think about this, even in as
                        > >> > comparitively a "small" question, in my mind at least,
                        > >> > as getting my ears pierced)
                        > >> > Just some thoughts.
                        > >> > ~~Irene
                        > >> >
                        > >> >>>>
                        > >> > How would you all look at this? Is it a case of
                        > >> > Christian
                        > >> > liberty (as long as they do it moderately and
                        > >> > modestly) or is it a
                        > >> > moral issue and therefore sinful or not?
                        > >> >>>>
                        > >> >
                        > >> > =====
                        > >> > ~~~~
                        > >> > I waited for the Lord
                        > >> > He stooped and heard my cry
                        > >> > He brought me from the pit
                        > >> > Out of the dungeon mire
                        > >> > My feet set on a rock
                        > >> > My footsteps made secure
                        > >> > My lips He gave a song
                        > >> > A song to praise our God
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > ______________________________________________________________________
                        > >> > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >> >
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                        > >> ADVERTISEMENT
                        > >> click here
                        > >>
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                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                        > >>
                        > >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                        > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                        > >>
                        > >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > >> covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                        > >>
                        > >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                        > >>
                        > >>
                        > >
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                        > >
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
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                        > click here
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                        >
                      • Robbie Stark
                        I would hope none of the lifts,...It is my weight class 220 lbs. Robbie ... From: Martin To:
                        Message 11 of 12 , Mar 3, 2005
                          I would hope none of the lifts,...It is my weight class 220 lbs.

                          Robbie







                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Martin" <anonfwrd@...>
                          To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:58 PM
                          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos


                          >
                          > 220's? Is that your squat, bench, or deadlift?
                          >
                          > Martin
                          >
                          > Robbie Stark wrote:
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> Powerlifter, 220's Raw (No supportive equipment), Lifetime Drug-Free.
                          >>
                          >> Robbie
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> ----- Original Message -----
                          >> From: "Martin" <anonfwrd@...>
                          >> To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                          >> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 7:29 PM
                          >> Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> >
                          >> > Hi Robbie,
                          >> >
                          >> > I suppose this is off-topic; however, are you a competitive
                          >> powerlifter
                          >> > or bodybuilder?
                          >> >
                          >> > Martin
                          >> >
                          >> > Robbie Stark wrote:
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >> Funny this topic should come up, I am "THIS" (Fingers almost
                          >> touching)
                          >> >> close
                          >> >> to having Romans 6:23 "Inked up" On my upper right arm, Maybe even
                          >> Romans
                          >> >> 3:23 on the other, I work out of Two Gold's Gyms (Three this summer)
                          >> with
                          >> >> over 9,000 Members, (With the Islip Gym opening on the South Shore of
                          >> >> Long
                          >> >> Island in June, it will be over 12,000 members),
                          >> >> I think it will be a great way to introduce the Gospel to a fertile
                          >> >> field of
                          >> >> the potentially Elect.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> With a one-on-one business and an hour of undivided attention I
                          >> already
                          >> >> have
                          >> >> given the Gospel to many, this will, perhaps, draw more in, as they
                          >> ask
                          >> >> what
                          >> >> Romans 6:23, or Romans 3:23 means. You'd be AMAZED how the Gospel
                          >> can
                          >> >> stop,
                          >> >> dead in their tracks, many a steroid bloated Muscle-Head. I have
                          >> the
                          >> >> credibility of Competing for 18 years and I have been a Strength
                          >> >> Coach/Personal Trainer for some 22 years.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> I have not decided yet, mainly because I have this "Issue" with
                          >> Needles
                          >> >> and
                          >> >> Tat's don't come with erasers. But, I know no Scripture verse that
                          >> would
                          >> >> compel me otherwise
                          >> >>
                          >> >> Just one mans opinion, from the Chalk clouded platform in the back
                          >> of the
                          >> >> Gym.
                          >> >>
                          >> >> Robbie
                          >> >>
                          >> >> (Who, by God's Grace will be competing again this summer)
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >> ----- Original Message -----
                          >> >> From: "Irene Flewelling" <myjoyisthelord@...>
                          >> >> To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                          >> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 2:44 PM
                          >> >> Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> > Yeah, I think it's a matter of Christian liberty, but
                          >> >> > also of modesty.. since anything that makes other
                          >> >> > people stare at you because it's so immoderate (for
                          >> >> > instance tattoos all over your arms) is immodest,
                          >> >> > besides which, it doesn't look good :D I think it's
                          >> >> > also probably a large issue of discretion, for
                          >> >> > instance, an unmarried person should consider the fact
                          >> >> > that if they ever get married their body will no
                          >> >> > longer be only their own and they should pretty
                          >> >> > carefully consider a permanent decision that a future
                          >> >> > spouse may have to live with like it or not.. (my Dad
                          >> >> > reminded me I should think about this, even in as
                          >> >> > comparitively a "small" question, in my mind at least,
                          >> >> > as getting my ears pierced)
                          >> >> > Just some thoughts.
                          >> >> > ~~Irene
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >>>>
                          >> >> > How would you all look at this? Is it a case of
                          >> >> > Christian
                          >> >> > liberty (as long as they do it moderately and
                          >> >> > modestly) or is it a
                          >> >> > moral issue and therefore sinful or not?
                          >> >> >>>>
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> > =====
                          >> >> > ~~~~
                          >> >> > I waited for the Lord
                          >> >> > He stooped and heard my cry
                          >> >> > He brought me from the pit
                          >> >> > Out of the dungeon mire
                          >> >> > My feet set on a rock
                          >> >> > My footsteps made secure
                          >> >> > My lips He gave a song
                          >> >> > A song to praise our God
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >
                          >> ______________________________________________________________________
                          >> >> > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> >
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                          >> >> ADVERTISEMENT
                          >> >> click here
                          >> >>
                          >> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129h8rujp/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1109883877/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                          >> >>
                          >> >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                          >> >>
                          >> >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          >> >> covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                          >> >>
                          >> >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          >> >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                          >> >>
                          >> >>
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                          >> ADVERTISEMENT
                          >> click here
                          >> <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=1295otfoi/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1109907875/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                          >>
                          >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                          >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                          >>
                          >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          >> covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >>
                          >> <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                          >>
                          >> * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          >> Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                          >>
                          >>
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                          >
                          >
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                          >
                        • Martin
                          Haha, ok; thanks for the clarification. Martin
                          Message 12 of 12 , Mar 3, 2005
                            Haha, ok; thanks for the clarification.

                            Martin

                            Robbie Stark wrote:
                            >
                            > I would hope none of the lifts,...It is my weight class 220 lbs.
                            >
                            > Robbie
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Martin" <anonfwrd@...>
                            > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 11:58 PM
                            > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos
                            >
                            >
                            > >
                            > > 220's? Is that your squat, bench, or deadlift?
                            > >
                            > > Martin
                            > >
                            > > Robbie Stark wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> Powerlifter, 220's Raw (No supportive equipment), Lifetime Drug-Free.
                            > >>
                            > >> Robbie
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> ----- Original Message -----
                            > >> From: "Martin" <anonfwrd@...>
                            > >> To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                            > >> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 7:29 PM
                            > >> Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> >
                            > >> > Hi Robbie,
                            > >> >
                            > >> > I suppose this is off-topic; however, are you a competitive
                            > >> powerlifter
                            > >> > or bodybuilder?
                            > >> >
                            > >> > Martin
                            > >> >
                            > >> > Robbie Stark wrote:
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >> Funny this topic should come up, I am "THIS" (Fingers almost
                            > >> touching)
                            > >> >> close
                            > >> >> to having Romans 6:23 "Inked up" On my upper right arm, Maybe even
                            > >> Romans
                            > >> >> 3:23 on the other, I work out of Two Gold's Gyms (Three this summer)
                            > >> with
                            > >> >> over 9,000 Members, (With the Islip Gym opening on the South
                            > Shore of
                            > >> >> Long
                            > >> >> Island in June, it will be over 12,000 members),
                            > >> >> I think it will be a great way to introduce the Gospel to a fertile
                            > >> >> field of
                            > >> >> the potentially Elect.
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >> With a one-on-one business and an hour of undivided attention I
                            > >> already
                            > >> >> have
                            > >> >> given the Gospel to many, this will, perhaps, draw more in, as they
                            > >> ask
                            > >> >> what
                            > >> >> Romans 6:23, or Romans 3:23 means. You'd be AMAZED how the Gospel
                            > >> can
                            > >> >> stop,
                            > >> >> dead in their tracks, many a steroid bloated Muscle-Head. I have
                            > >> the
                            > >> >> credibility of Competing for 18 years and I have been a Strength
                            > >> >> Coach/Personal Trainer for some 22 years.
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >> I have not decided yet, mainly because I have this "Issue" with
                            > >> Needles
                            > >> >> and
                            > >> >> Tat's don't come with erasers. But, I know no Scripture verse that
                            > >> would
                            > >> >> compel me otherwise
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >> Just one mans opinion, from the Chalk clouded platform in the back
                            > >> of the
                            > >> >> Gym.
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >> Robbie
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >> (Who, by God's Grace will be competing again this summer)
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >> ----- Original Message -----
                            > >> >> From: "Irene Flewelling" <myjoyisthelord@...>
                            > >> >> To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                            > >> >> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2005 2:44 PM
                            > >> >> Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Tattoos
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> > Yeah, I think it's a matter of Christian liberty, but
                            > >> >> > also of modesty.. since anything that makes other
                            > >> >> > people stare at you because it's so immoderate (for
                            > >> >> > instance tattoos all over your arms) is immodest,
                            > >> >> > besides which, it doesn't look good :D I think it's
                            > >> >> > also probably a large issue of discretion, for
                            > >> >> > instance, an unmarried person should consider the fact
                            > >> >> > that if they ever get married their body will no
                            > >> >> > longer be only their own and they should pretty
                            > >> >> > carefully consider a permanent decision that a future
                            > >> >> > spouse may have to live with like it or not.. (my Dad
                            > >> >> > reminded me I should think about this, even in as
                            > >> >> > comparitively a "small" question, in my mind at least,
                            > >> >> > as getting my ears pierced)
                            > >> >> > Just some thoughts.
                            > >> >> > ~~Irene
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >>>>
                            > >> >> > How would you all look at this? Is it a case of
                            > >> >> > Christian
                            > >> >> > liberty (as long as they do it moderately and
                            > >> >> > modestly) or is it a
                            > >> >> > moral issue and therefore sinful or not?
                            > >> >> >>>>
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> > =====
                            > >> >> > ~~~~
                            > >> >> > I waited for the Lord
                            > >> >> > He stooped and heard my cry
                            > >> >> > He brought me from the pit
                            > >> >> > Out of the dungeon mire
                            > >> >> > My feet set on a rock
                            > >> >> > My footsteps made secure
                            > >> >> > My lips He gave a song
                            > >> >> > A song to praise our God
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> ______________________________________________________________________
                            > >> >> > Post your free ad now! http://personals.yahoo.ca
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >> >
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                            > >> >> ADVERTISEMENT
                            > >> >> click here
                            > >> >>
                            > >>
                            > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129h8rujp/M=298184.6018725.7038619.3001176/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1109883877/A=2593423/R=0/SIG=11el9gslf/*http://www.netflix.com/Default?mqso=60190075>
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > >> >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > >> >> covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > >> >>
                            > >> >>
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                            > >>
                            > >> *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                            > >> ADVERTISEMENT
                            > >> click here
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                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >> *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                            > >>
                            > >> * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                            > >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                            > >>
                            > >> * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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