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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Tattoos

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  • Jasper
    Folks, perhaps a brief explanation would be provided on why this same interpretation and application (that the referenced tattooing was for religious purposes)
    Message 1 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
       

      Folks, perhaps a brief explanation would be provided on why this same interpretation and application (that the referenced tattooing was for religious purposes) does not apply to the issue of images of God (that the referenced images were for worship purposes).   Thank you for your helpfulness.

       

      Jasper

       



      "Edgar A. Ibarra Jr." <puritanpresbyterian@...> wrote:

      Thanks Cheryl.  I was thinking along the same lines as far as the religious of then vs. the fashion statement of today. "Henna designs" what's that?  I too would worry about the other side effects plus the aging factor and the tattoo sagging into something less than appealing.

         I recently went to the 1st ever largest display of pre-Columbian Mexica (a.k.a. Aztec)museum artifacts outside of Mexico at the Goggeheim (spell?) Museum and I was facinated at their jewlery (that which escaped the gold-mongering Spainards), and their lip-plugs, wow, those look awesome, but I would get freakish looks if I donned one of those on today, unless of course I was around those Gothic dressing peoples running around nowadays!

      Thanks,

      Edgar

      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Cheryl"
      <cherylgrenon@l...> wrote:
      > Dear Edgar,
      >
      > This is just my opinion, but it appears to me that the tatooing being mentioned in the OT passages seem to have some sort of religious connotations to them.  I therefore think it now falls in the realm of Christian liberty since many people consider it just a form of body art like permanent makeup or henna designs.  However, I would not get one myself.  I don't relish the thought of what a beautiful rose turning into a withered rose on my body as I age. 
      There is also the issue of heavy metal intoxication from some of the dyes used for tatooing, allergic reaction and scars from it, and just plain getting sick of the design after a while.   I am thinking about a nose stud though.... :oP
      >
      > Cheryl
      >
      >
      >   ----- Original Message -----
      >   From: Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
      >   To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      >   Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2005 3:02 PM
      >   Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Tattoos
      >
      >   In the Word of God, our LORD speaks that the Israelites were not to tattoo their body among other things that the surrounding heathens did.  I have met Christians in the past, that got tattoos, AFTER, they were professing Christians.  Most with Scripture verses and others with those tribal/pict style tattoos.
      >
      >   How would you all look at this?  Is it a case of Christian liberty (as long as they do it moderately and modestly) or is it a moral issue and therefore sinful or not?
      >
      >  Just curious about this one, I guess it would be on par with women and make-up, but then maybe not?
      >
      >   Tattooless (even though I was a Marine),
      >
      >   Edgar
      >

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    • Larry Bump
      ... From: Jasper ... interpretation and application (that the referenced tattooing was for religious purposes) does not apply to the
      Message 2 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Jasper" <jasperh98@...>
        >
        > Folks, perhaps a brief explanation would be provided on why this same
        interpretation and application (that the referenced tattooing was for
        religious purposes) does not apply to the issue of images of God (that the
        referenced images were for worship purposes). Thank you for your
        helpfulness.

        That one is easy.

        Any image of man, creatures, or creation may be interacted with at any level
        below worship without sin. Hence, images of created beings or things are
        not forbidden.

        Interacting with anything purporting to be God or a visual representation of
        God would either inspire faulty worship (violation of the Second
        Commandment) or they would not. If they did not, Man would be interacting
        with God in a non-worshipful way, ie blasphemously denying His holiness and
        majesty; a violation of the First Commandment.

        Larry



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      • Jasper
        Mr. Bump, thank you for replying. I think the first and second commandments are given as: “Thou shalt have none other gods before me. Thou shalt not make
        Message 3 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
          Mr. Bump, thank you for replying.  I think the first and second commandments are given as:
           

          Thou shalt have none other gods before me.

          Thou shalt not make thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the waters beneath the earth:

          Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God��   Deut. 5:7-9

           
          Please bear with me a bit here  -  I do not mean to be contentious.  First, I am somewhat surprised that you say "images of created beings or things are not forbidden".  That is not what I expected to read and I wonder if the rest of the group here agrees with you?
           
          Secondly,  when you say "Man would be interacting with God in a non-worshipful way", I appreciate the sensitivity to that issue that you display.  I will give this more consideration.
           
          Thirdly, on the same train of thought, you seem to be saying that in the case where "Interacting with anything purporting to be God or a visual representation of God" does not inspire faulty worship, then "Man would be interacting with God in a non-worshipful way, ie blasphemously denying His holiness and majesty".  I understand the first part to be describing a false god, but the continuation in the second part says that it actually is God.  Am I just failing to get your meaning here?  help, please.
           
          Thank you for allowing me to pose these few questions.
           
          Jasper
           


          Larry Bump <lbump@...> wrote:


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Jasper" <jasperh98@...>
          >
          > Folks, perhaps a brief explanation would be provided on why this same interpretation and application (that the referenced tattooing was for religious purposes) does not apply to the issue of images of God (that the referenced images were for worship purposes).   Thank you for your helpfulness.


          That one is easy.

          Any image of man, creatures, or creation may be interacted with at any level below worship without sin.  Hence, images of created beings or things are not forbidden.

          Interacting with anything purporting to be God or a visual representation of God would either inspire faulty worship (violation of the Second Commandment) or they would not.  If they did not, Man would be interacting with God in a  non-worshipful way, ie blasphemously denying His holiness and majesty; a violation of the First Commandment.

          Larry

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        • Larry Bump
          ... The word images means any picture or sculpture. Images themselves are not forbidden, you have them in your home all over the place. The word in
          Message 4 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
            Jasper wrote:

            > Please bear with me a bit here - I do not mean to be contentious.
            > First, I am somewhat surprised that you say "images of created beings or
            > things are not forbidden". That is not what I expected to read and I
            > wonder if the rest of the group here agrees with you?

            The word "images" means any picture or sculpture. Images themselves are
            not forbidden, you have them in your home all over the place.
            The word in scripture does *not* carry the meaning "religious icon".

            Unless one means to say that all photography and/or drawing of living
            beings is forbidden, images per se are allowable.

            > Thirdly, on the same train of thought, you seem to be saying that in the
            > case where "Interacting with anything purporting to be God or a visual
            > representation of God" does not inspire faulty worship, then "Man would
            > be interacting with God in a non-worshipful way, ie blasphemously
            > denying His holiness and majesty". I understand the first part to be
            > describing a false god, but the continuation in the second part says
            > that it actually is God. Am I just failing to get your meaning here?
            > help, please.


            Something that represents God *in se* would need to be representative of
            God's holiness and righteousness. If I interact with something that
            *is* God in any meaningful manner without giving the honor due to God I
            would be treating it/Him blasphemously.

            The point is that a picture "of God" either is, or is not a
            representation of God. Sounds like a tautology, but it's not. if it
            is, and I treat it non-Godly, I disrespect God by withholding His due.
            if I treat it Godly, I violate the second commandment.

            The reality of the issue is that nothing can really represent God, so if
            you say something *does*, you have lied, and about Him. Blasphemy.

            Seriously, can you imagine seeing a picture of God (in truth) that would
            *not* inspire worship? Can't be avoided, but must not be done. That's
            why an image of God is absolutely forbidden.
            If the calf did represent Yahweh, then the people would *have* to bow
            before it. The calf was meant to represent Elohim, but that is forbidden.

            Anyway, I believe that there is a reason that jesus lived before
            photography, and in a culture that did not do portraits. and, this is
            why the Shroud of Turin, in my opinion, cannot be the true shroud, with
            true marks.

            Hope this helps; I am rambling a little.

            Larry
          • gmw
            ... First, I am somewhat surprised that you say images of created beings or things are not forbidden . That is not what I expected to read and I wonder if
            Message 5 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Jasper
              <jasperh98@y...> wrote:
              > Please bear with me a bit here - I do not mean to be contentious.
              First, I am somewhat surprised that you say "images of created beings
              or things are not forbidden". That is not what I expected to read and
              I wonder if the rest of the group here agrees with you?
              >

              Heidelberg Catechism --
              Q97: May we not make any image at all?

              A97: God may not and cannot be imaged in any way; as for creatures,
              though they may indeed be imaged, yet God forbids the making or
              keeping of any likeness of them, either to worship them or to serve
              God by them.[1]

              1. Exod. 23:24-25; 34:13-14; Deut. 7:5; 12:3; 16:22; II Kings 18:4;
              John 1:18

              gmw.
            • Larry Bump
              ... From: gmw ... Context and definitions, context and definitions. What cognitive load does the word images have in what
              Message 6 of 12 , Mar 2, 2005
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>> >
                >
                > Heidelberg Catechism --
                > Q97: May we not make any image at all?
                >
                > A97: God may not and cannot be imaged in any way; as for creatures,
                > though they may indeed be imaged, yet God forbids the making or
                > keeping of any likeness of them, either to worship them or to serve
                > God by them.[1]

                Context and definitions, context and definitions.
                What cognitive load does the word "images" have in what I wrote, and how
                does that relate to the meaning of the word as used by Heidelberg?
                The place I was quoted was referring to "images", ie, pictures and
                sculptures, of all sorts and in all contexts.

                Larry



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              • Jasper
                Larry Bump wrote: Hope this helps; I am rambling a little. Yes, you have helped. Thank you kind sir. J Larry Bump
                Message 7 of 12 , Mar 3, 2005
                  Larry Bump <lbump@...> wrote:
                  Hope this helps; I am rambling a little.

                   
                  Yes, you have helped.   Thank you kind sir.
                   
                  J
                   
                   

                  Larry Bump <lbump@...> wrote:


                  Jasper wrote:

                  > Please bear with me a bit here  -  I do not mean to be contentious.  First, I am somewhat surprised that you say "images of created beings or things are not forbidden".  That is not what I expected to read and I wonder if the rest of the group here agrees with you?

                  The word "images" means any picture or sculpture.  Images themselves are not forbidden, you have them in your home all over the place.   The word in scripture does *not* carry the meaning "religious icon".

                  Unless one means to say that all photography and/or drawing of living beings is forbidden, images per se are allowable.

                  > Thirdly, on the same train of thought, you seem to be saying that in the case where "Interacting with anything purporting to be God or a visual representation of God" does not inspire faulty worship, then "Man would be interacting with God in a non-worshipful way, ie blasphemously denying His holiness and majesty".  I understand the first part to be describing a false god, but the continuation in the second part says 
                  that it actually is God.  Am I just failing to get your meaning here?  help, please.


                  Something that represents God *in se* would need to be representative of God's holiness and righteousness.  If I interact with something that *is* God in any meaningful manner without giving the honor due to God I would be treating it/Him blasphemously.

                  The point is that a picture "of God" either is, or is not a
                  representation of God.  Sounds like a tautology, but it's not.  if it is, and I treat it non-Godly, I disrespect God by withholding His due.  if I treat it Godly, I violate the second commandment.

                  The reality of the issue is that nothing can really represent God, so if you say something *does*, you have lied, and about Him.  Blasphemy.

                  Seriously, can you imagine seeing a picture of God (in truth) that would *not* inspire worship?  Can't be avoided, but must not be done.  That's why an image of God is absolutely forbidden.
                  If the calf did represent Yahweh, then the people would *have* to bow before it.  The calf was meant to represent Elohim, but that is forbidden.

                  Anyway, I believe that there is a reason that jesus lived before photography, and in a culture that did not do portraits.  and, this is why the Shroud of Turin, in my opinion, cannot be the true shroud, with true marks.

                  Hope this helps; I am rambling a little.

                  Larry

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                • gmw
                  Um, yes. I was using the Heidelberg to explain what I thought you were saying. gmw.
                  Message 8 of 12 , Mar 3, 2005
                    Um, yes. I was using the Heidelberg to explain what I thought you were
                    saying.

                    gmw.

                    Larry Bump wrote:

                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>> >
                    > >
                    > > Heidelberg Catechism --
                    > > Q97: May we not make any image at all?
                    > >
                    > > A97: God may not and cannot be imaged in any way; as for creatures,
                    > > though they may indeed be imaged, yet God forbids the making or
                    > > keeping of any likeness of them, either to worship them or to serve
                    > > God by them.[1]
                    >
                    > Context and definitions, context and definitions.
                    > What cognitive load does the word "images" have in what I wrote, and how
                    > does that relate to the meaning of the word as used by Heidelberg?
                    > The place I was quoted was referring to "images", ie, pictures and
                    > sculptures, of all sorts and in all contexts.
                    >
                    > Larry
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                  • Larry Bump
                    ... From: gmw ... Oh, OK. ;-) I will admit that I do have my dense moments. More frequently sometimes than others. Larry --
                    Message 9 of 12 , Mar 3, 2005
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
                      >
                      > Um, yes. I was using the Heidelberg to explain what I thought you were
                      > saying.

                      Oh, OK.
                      ;-)

                      I will admit that I do have my dense moments. More frequently sometimes
                      than others.
                      Larry



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                    • gmw
                      ... Don t worry about it. Unfortunately, this is a problem with a forum like this --- we read things and aren t sure how to take them, or even what they mean
                      Message 10 of 12 , Mar 4, 2005
                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bump"
                        <lbump@b...> wrote:

                        > Oh, OK.
                        > ;-)
                        >
                        > I will admit that I do have my dense moments. More frequently sometimes
                        > than others.

                        Don't worry about it. Unfortunately, this is a problem with a forum
                        like this --- we read things and aren't sure how to take them, or even
                        what they mean sometimes! Let's all be quick to view each other in
                        charity.

                        BTW, I think you guys did a bang up job in that last thread about the
                        differences between denominations -- that had all the workings of an
                        ugly fight, but it didn't turn out that way. Way to go, folks.

                        gmw.
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