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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says Sabbath Breaking Caused Tsunami

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  • Larry Bump
    ... From: gmw ... I believe that this sort of thing is foolishness at best. Unless he be a prophet, how can he know the Mind
    Message 1 of 30 , Feb 14, 2005
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>

      > Our family's reading through Amos, and I'm thinking that when preachers
      > speak on things like this, we should at the very least consider it very
      > carefully.

      I believe that this sort of thing is foolishness at best. Unless he be a
      prophet, how can he know the Mind of God to state that this was a punishment
      for a specific sin?

      I believe the idolatry of these heathen probably awakens His wrath a little
      more than their breaking of the Lord's Day, and He sees fit to visit them
      with floods on a fairly regular basis.

      I do believe that Jesus addresses this very tendency among the religious in
      Luke 13:4, and not to Pastor MacLeod's favor.

      Larry Bump


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    • Brainiac
      Well, ISTM on reading the article, he wasn t stating as fact that it punishment for a particular sin, simply that it cannot be ruled out that it was.
      Message 2 of 30 , Feb 14, 2005
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        Well,  ISTM  on reading the article, he wasn't stating as fact that it  punishment for a particular sin,  simply that it cannot be ruled out that it was.    Which  does seem worth consideration  and  reflection.
         
        ~Deejay
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 11:34 PM
        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says Sabbath Breaking Caused Tsunami


        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>



        I believe that this sort of thing is foolishness at best.  Unless he be a
        prophet, how can he know the Mind of God to state that this was a punishment
        for a specific sin?

        I believe the idolatry of these heathen probably awakens His wrath a little
        more than their breaking of the Lord's Day, and He sees fit to visit them
        with floods on a fairly regular basis.

        I do believe that Jesus addresses this very tendency among the religious in
        Luke 13:4, and not to Pastor MacLeod's favor.

        Larry Bump


      • Larry Bump
        ... From: Jason Robert Schuiling ... The point is that there are so very many possible sins that it is silly to narrow it to this.
        Message 3 of 30 , Feb 14, 2005
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Jason Robert Schuiling" <jrschuiling@...>
          >
          > As little as my opinion is worth I for one would commend Pastor
          > MacLeod. It is most doubtful that Sabbath-breaking would be the sole
          > cause of such judgement, but we must not forget that Sabbath-
          > breaking is very much part and parcel of gross idolatry. God has
          > esteemed to put the observance of his holy-day so highly as to make
          > it one among the four commandments summarizing our chief religious
          > duties, we should not take it less lightly than he has.

          The point is that there are so very many possible sins that it is silly to
          narrow it to this. Someone promoting their hobby horse (not to minimize the
          sin) to a root cause.

          If Yahweh were prone to visit violations of the Sabbath Ordinance in such a
          fashion, where was the meteor at the Super Bowl? Sins of this sort would be
          more likely to be punished in an ostensibly Christian land, rather than one
          where the Gospel has never held sway.

          The commercialization of paedophilia, idolatry, etc. are better motives, if
          one were prone to pick which sin was being punished. It is *not* within the
          role of the Church, nor her officers, to assign such a ranking or motivation
          to the Lord, absent revelation. That is the point.

          Larry


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        • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
          Here, here! J.S. Schulling, i m with you on this (in commend Pastor Macleod)! It most definately is an act of God...and a wake up call that God is in control
          Message 4 of 30 , Feb 14, 2005
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            Here, here! J.S. Schulling, i'm with you on this (in commend Pastor
            Macleod)!

            It most definately is an act of God...and a wake up call that God is
            in control of nature and will use nature to punish some and warn
            everyone else...it is a terrible and fearful thing to fall into the
            hands of a consuming fire.

            As the Lord used "nature" in the OT to effect certain punishments,
            He does for sure continue to do so. He is the same yesterday &
            today.

            Edgar

            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Jason Robert
            Schuiling" <jrschuiling@y...> wrote:
            >
            > As little as my opinion is worth I for one would commend Pastor
            > MacLeod. It is most doubtful that Sabbath-breaking would be the
            sole
            > cause of such judgement, but we must not forget that Sabbath-
            > breaking is very much part and parcel of gross idolatry. God has
            > esteemed to put the observance of his holy-day so highly as to
            make
            > it one among the four commandments summarizing our chief religious
            > duties, we should not take it less lightly than he has.
            >
            > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bump"
            > <lbump@b...> wrote:
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@v...>
            > >
            > > > Our family's reading through Amos, and I'm thinking that when
            > preachers
            > > > speak on things like this, we should at the very least
            consider
            > it very
            > > > carefully.
            > >
            > > I believe that this sort of thing is foolishness at best.
            Unless
            > he be a
            > > prophet, how can he know the Mind of God to state that this was
            a
            > punishment
            > > for a specific sin?
            > >
            > > I believe the idolatry of these heathen probably awakens His
            wrath
            > a little
            > > more than their breaking of the Lord's Day, and He sees fit to
            > visit them
            > > with floods on a fairly regular basis.
            > >
            > > I do believe that Jesus addresses this very tendency among the
            > religious in
            > > Luke 13:4, and not to Pastor MacLeod's favor.
            > >
            > > Larry Bump
            > >
            > >
            > > ---
            > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
            > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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          • J. Parnell McCarter
            The Puritan News Weekly take on this article is at : http://www.puritans.net/news/tsunamijournalism021405.htm - Parnell McCarter P.S. Don t assume newspaper
            Message 5 of 30 , Feb 14, 2005
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              The Puritan News Weekly take on this article is at :


              http://www.puritans.net/news/tsunamijournalism021405.htm

              - Parnell McCarter

              P.S. Don't assume newspaper headlines accurately represent what someone said
              or wrote.
            • Jason Robert Schuiling
              Larry, Your point is taken, and you would ve noted I stated such agreement in what I said, It is most doubtful that Sabbath-breaking would be the sole cause
              Message 6 of 30 , Feb 14, 2005
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                Larry,
                Your point is taken, and you would've noted I stated such agreement
                in what I said, "It is most doubtful that Sabbath-breaking would be
                the sole cause of such judgment" I only qualified this by saying
                that there is no fault in partially attributing this judgment to one
                overarching sin of Sabbath-breaking, which incorporates many facets
                of idolatry, which you also attributed this to in part. The violent
                responses, IMO, in part validate such a limited attribution, for
                they take the worship of the Almighty Creator so lightly that they
                believe God may never judge or take vengence upon any for not giving
                the Holy One his due, which goes to show that such is both related
                and must needs be witnessed against.


                "One wonders what sort of God this man worships and more, how he
                professes to know the mind of God. Are we to believe that in John
                MacLeod's distorted world, a divine creator would wipe out 100,000
                innocent children as some sort of heavenly sign that he was unhappy
                that a few thousand European vacationers had chosen to relax under
                the very sun that the creator made? (Bob Buntin, Bridge of Weir,
                Scotland)

                "I am sometimes tempted to take the reality of the devil literally,
                and suspect that his best work in Scotland is from the pulpit. How
                sad of the Rev. John MacLeod to propagate his nihilistic heresy. It
                must leave some readers scoffing at all matters spiritual ... ."
                (Alastair McIntosh, Glasgow)



                ----Jason

                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Larry Bump"
                <lbump@b...> wrote:
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Jason Robert Schuiling" <jrschuiling@y...>
                > >
                > > As little as my opinion is worth I for one would commend Pastor
                > > MacLeod. It is most doubtful that Sabbath-breaking would be the
                sole
                > > cause of such judgement, but we must not forget that Sabbath-
                > > breaking is very much part and parcel of gross idolatry. God has
                > > esteemed to put the observance of his holy-day so highly as to
                make
                > > it one among the four commandments summarizing our chief
                religious
                > > duties, we should not take it less lightly than he has.
                >
                > The point is that there are so very many possible sins that it is
                silly to
                > narrow it to this. Someone promoting their hobby horse (not to
                minimize the
                > sin) to a root cause.
                >
                > If Yahweh were prone to visit violations of the Sabbath Ordinance
                in such a
                > fashion, where was the meteor at the Super Bowl? Sins of this
                sort would be
                > more likely to be punished in an ostensibly Christian land, rather
                than one
                > where the Gospel has never held sway.
                >
                > The commercialization of paedophilia, idolatry, etc. are better
                motives, if
                > one were prone to pick which sin was being punished. It is *not*
                within the
                > role of the Church, nor her officers, to assign such a ranking or
                motivation
                > to the Lord, absent revelation. That is the point.
                >
                > Larry
                >
                >
                > ---
                > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
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              • Larry Bump
                ... From: Jason Robert Schuiling ... This I certainly agree with. I particularly despise the God didn t do this, it s Nature!
                Message 7 of 30 , Feb 15, 2005
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                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Jason Robert Schuiling" <jrschuiling@...>>
                  >
                  > Larry,
                  > The violent
                  > responses, IMO, in part validate such a limited attribution, for
                  > they take the worship of the Almighty Creator so lightly that they
                  > believe God may never judge or take vengence upon any for not giving
                  > the Holy One his due, which goes to show that such is both related
                  > and must needs be witnessed against.

                  This I certainly agree with. I particularly despise the "God didn't do
                  this, it's Nature!" response.
                  As far as the "What kind of God would" type of statement, the proper
                  response is that it is the sort of God that has decreed the death of nearly
                  100% of all humans born to this date, at all ages. These 100,000+ were no
                  different, except for the publicity.

                  Larry


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                • jparnellm@usxchange.net
                  Larry, don t confuse the headline of the Worldnetdaily article with what Rev MacLeod **actually** wrote. Please show me where in what Rev MacLeod actually
                  Message 8 of 30 , Feb 15, 2005
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                    Larry, don't confuse the headline of the Worldnetdaily article with what Rev
                    MacLeod **actually** wrote. Please show me where in what Rev MacLeod actually
                    wrote that he said "Sabbath breaking caused the tsunami". That headline twists
                    Rev MacLeod's **actual** words. What Rev MacLeod asserted was:

                    - The tsunami was decreed by God.

                    - It was no mere accident that many died from the tsunami; God was sovereign
                    over their deaths and the destruction of the tsunami.

                    - We should be asking why God might have decreed such destruction. Often it is
                    to punish sin. One *possible* factor was to judge the Sabbath desecrators that
                    were out playing on the beaches that day. It is a great sin to be doing such.


                    - Evil doers should be especially warned by such temporal judgments as the
                    recent tsunami.

                    Please show me what you disagree with any of the above assertions.

                    Your example of the incident of the tower falling is not really analogous,
                    because there was no obvious connection between the tower falling and the death
                    of those inside. But there is a *possible* connection between a tsunami on the
                    Lord's Day which destroys people playing on beaches and the death of those
                    playing on the beaches on Sunday. They were in the wrong place at the wrong
                    time, just like those Argentine nightclub attendees were in the wrong place at
                    the wrong time when so many of them got killed in the recent destructive
                    nightclub incident.

                    I think it would be wrong to assert that the sin was the cause of the event, but
                    I think it would be naive to dismiss the *possibility* that was one reason God
                    brought it to pass.

                    - Parnell McCarter







                    Quoting Larry Bump <lbump@...>:

                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "Jason Robert Schuiling" <jrschuiling@...>
                    > >
                    > > As little as my opinion is worth I for one would commend Pastor
                    > > MacLeod. It is most doubtful that Sabbath-breaking would be the sole
                    > > cause of such judgement, but we must not forget that Sabbath-
                    > > breaking is very much part and parcel of gross idolatry. God has
                    > > esteemed to put the observance of his holy-day so highly as to make
                    > > it one among the four commandments summarizing our chief religious
                    > > duties, we should not take it less lightly than he has.
                    >
                    > The point is that there are so very many possible sins that it is silly to
                    > narrow it to this. Someone promoting their hobby horse (not to minimize the
                    > sin) to a root cause.
                    >
                    > If Yahweh were prone to visit violations of the Sabbath Ordinance in such a
                    > fashion, where was the meteor at the Super Bowl? Sins of this sort would be
                    > more likely to be punished in an ostensibly Christian land, rather than one
                    > where the Gospel has never held sway.
                    >
                    > The commercialization of paedophilia, idolatry, etc. are better motives, if
                    > one were prone to pick which sin was being punished. It is *not* within the
                    > role of the Church, nor her officers, to assign such a ranking or motivation
                    > to the Lord, absent revelation. That is the point.
                    >
                    > Larry
                    >
                    >
                    > ---
                    > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • cherylgrenon@look.ca
                    Last month I was sitting across the table at breakfast with a sociology professor from a Christian university when the subject of the recent tsunami came up.
                    Message 9 of 30 , Feb 15, 2005
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                      Last month I was sitting across the table at breakfast with a sociology
                      professor from a Christian university when the subject of the recent
                      tsunami came up. He made the remarkable statement that this was a mere
                      act of nature and nature's laws and that really, free will was the cause
                      of the tragedy because these people had chosen to build their homes in a
                      tsunami prone area.

                      I could only goggle at him silently for several moments in astonishment.
                      I then asked him what he thought the judgement of God would look like if
                      it ever did hit. No reply.

                      I am not willing to ascribe any one thing as being the cause of the Lord
                      smiting these lands. Certainly they were Sabbath breakers. They were
                      also gross idolaters, haters of God and His people, and the area of
                      Thailand that was hit was notorious as a center for the sex trade and all
                      sorts of perversions that accompany it. I could only wonder on succeeding
                      Lord's Days as we sang of God's covenant love and His judgement why He has
                      spared our land and shown us mercy when we deserve no better than those
                      people in Asia.

                      Cheryl
                    • Neil Barham
                      cherylgrenon@look.ca wrote:Last month I was sitting across the table at breakfast with a sociology professor from a Christian university when the subject of
                      Message 10 of 30 , Feb 15, 2005
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                        cherylgrenon@... wrote:
                        Last month I was sitting across the table at breakfast with a sociology
                        professor from a Christian university when the subject of the recent
                        tsunami came up.  He made the remarkable statement that this was a mere
                        act of nature and nature's laws and that really, free will was the cause
                        of the tragedy because these people had chosen to build their homes in a
                        tsunami prone area.

                        I could only goggle at him silently for several moments in astonishment.
                        I then asked him what he thought the judgement of God would look like if
                        it ever did hit.  No reply.

                        I am not willing to ascribe any one thing as being the cause of the Lord
                        smiting these lands.  Certainly they were Sabbath breakers.  They were
                        also gross idolaters, haters of God and His people, and the area of
                        Thailand that was hit was notorious as a center for the sex trade and all
                        sorts of perversions that accompany it.  I could only wonder on succeeding
                        Lord's Days as we sang of God's covenant love and His judgement why He has
                        spared our land and shown us mercy when we deserve no better than those
                        people in Asia.

                        Cheryl


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                      • Larry Bump
                        I do not disagree with any part of it except that the breaking of the Lord s Day ordinance would not have made the top three sins there; that s all. To single
                        Message 11 of 30 , Feb 15, 2005
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                          I do not disagree with any part of it except that the breaking of the
                          Lord's Day ordinance would not have made the top three sins there;
                          that's all.

                          To single that out as primary in the context of all that was happening
                          at that place is silly.

                          If Pastor MacLeod did not say that, then the whole discussion is moot;
                          if he did then he would be guilty of underplaying more serious issues
                          than the one mentioned. Since the complete quote was not made in either
                          article cited I cannot answer that question; I suppose the interviewer
                          had *some* reason for titling the article as they did.

                          I do not understand what you are saying about the Tower of Siloam being
                          different; there is a quite obvious connection between the falling of
                          the tower and the people's death. Jesus specifically stated that
                          individual sin is not to be imputed due to bad things happening to said
                          individual; that the death is something that should remind us of our
                          mortality and need for a Savior.

                          A better statement would simply have been that all death is a result of
                          sin, and that this should have been a wake-up call to all that they need
                          to be searching out the living and true God, and finding the pathway to
                          reconciliation with Him.

                          I can't understand how you can look at a region catering to paedophilia
                          and all sorts of rampant idolatry and sin, and point to Sabbath-breaking
                          as the sin that set off the judgment. Was it part of the total sum of
                          iniquity that cause Yahweh to destroy? Sure, of course; but so were
                          their violations of the other nine Commandments. But no one alive now
                          will escape the death of this fleshly body, at the express act of God,
                          nor fail to face Him in Judgment (of one sort or another). These were
                          no different; the fellow that died in bed peacefully *also* and to the
                          same degree, died as a judgment on their sin.

                          Does God judge through tragedy, on Earth and in history? Of course He
                          does. Are the judgment and the means of judgment related, usually as
                          seen properly? Of course; but it would be as proper to look at the
                          means (water/earthquake) as it is the timing.

                          We need to understand that all humans ever born except two have died for
                          sins against God; and if you factor in the people who were raised and
                          dies again the death rate, caused by God, has exceeded an average 100%

                          Larry

                          jparnellm@... wrote:

                          >
                          > Larry, don't confuse the headline of the Worldnetdaily article with what Rev
                          > MacLeod **actually** wrote. Please show me where in what Rev MacLeod actually
                          > wrote that he said "Sabbath breaking caused the tsunami". That headline twists
                          > Rev MacLeod's **actual** words. What Rev MacLeod asserted was:
                          >
                          > - The tsunami was decreed by God.
                          >
                          > - It was no mere accident that many died from the tsunami; God was sovereign
                          > over their deaths and the destruction of the tsunami.
                          >
                          > - We should be asking why God might have decreed such destruction. Often it is
                          > to punish sin. One *possible* factor was to judge the Sabbath desecrators that
                          > were out playing on the beaches that day. It is a great sin to be doing such.
                          >
                          >
                          > - Evil doers should be especially warned by such temporal judgments as the
                          > recent tsunami.
                          >
                          > Please show me what you disagree with any of the above assertions.
                          >
                          > Your example of the incident of the tower falling is not really analogous,
                          > because there was no obvious connection between the tower falling and the death
                          > of those inside. But there is a *possible* connection between a tsunami on the
                          > Lord's Day which destroys people playing on beaches and the death of those
                          > playing on the beaches on Sunday. They were in the wrong place at the wrong
                          > time, just like those Argentine nightclub attendees were in the wrong place at
                          > the wrong time when so many of them got killed in the recent destructive
                          > nightclub incident.
                          >
                          > I think it would be wrong to assert that the sin was the cause of the event, but
                          > I think it would be naive to dismiss the *possibility* that was one reason God
                          > brought it to pass.
                          >
                          > - Parnell McCarter
                          >
                        • J. Parnell McCarter
                          ... different; there is a quite obvious connection between the falling of the tower and the people s death. Jesus specifically stated that individual sin is
                          Message 12 of 30 , Feb 15, 2005
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                            >I do not understand what you are saying about the Tower of Siloam being
                            different; there is a quite obvious connection between the falling of
                            the tower and the people's death. Jesus specifically stated that
                            individual sin is not to be imputed due to bad things happening to said
                            individual; that the death is something that should remind us of our
                            mortality and need for a Savior.


                            Larry, I did not word my statement clearly or properly. Let me try again.
                            In the Tower case, there was no obvious sin that the people destroyed by the
                            disaster had obviously committed. Therefore, we should not assume, just
                            because there was a disaster, that the people affected were necessarily
                            judged for a heinous sin on their part. Contrast that with Sodom and its
                            disaster. There was heinous sin in Sodom, so we would be right to consider
                            their disaster a judgment for their specific heinous sin.

                            But in the case of people playing on the beach on the Sunday of the tsunami,
                            there was obvious sin. Therefore, we are right in concluding such Sabbath
                            desecrators playing on the beach on the day of the tsunami were judged when
                            God decreed the tsunami to fall upon them.

                            >I can't understand how you can look at a region catering to paedophilia
                            and all sorts of rampant idolatry and sin, and point to Sabbath-breaking
                            as the sin that set off the judgment.

                            Yes, and Rev MacLeod in his article noted those other sins. Keep in mind
                            that Rev MacLeod is in Britain, and many of the Europeans that were killed
                            in the disaster were vacationing in the region, and playing on the beach on
                            the Lord's Day. That is where the Sabbath desecration comes in.

                            But you are surely right that the tsunami was surely decreed in judgment of
                            various and sundry sins, and we cannot know the priority of reasons God
                            decreed the tsunami. Just keep in mind that Rev MacLeod did not claim to
                            know that either.

                            - Parnell McCarter
                          • cherylgrenon@look.ca
                            ... I could be totally off here, but it seems to me that the second table commandments flow out of the first table and that therefore direct violations of our
                            Message 13 of 30 , Feb 16, 2005
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                              > > I can't understand how you can look at a region catering to paedophilia
                              > and all sorts of rampant idolatry and sin, and point to Sabbath-breaking
                              > as the sin that set off the judgment. Was it part of the total sum of
                              > iniquity that cause Yahweh to destroy? Sure, of course; but so were
                              > their violations of the other nine Commandments.

                              I could be totally off here, but it seems to me that the second table
                              commandments flow out of the first table and that therefore direct
                              violations of our relationship with God have greater impact than do second
                              table violations. As I read the OT, there seems to be a direct connection
                              between times of declension with times of neglecting the first four
                              commandments. Times of reformation coincided with times of the
                              restoration of godly worship, destruction of idolatry, returning to the
                              Sabbath, and honoring God's Name. If we don't honor God in what He
                              requires of us wrt Him, what makes us think we will do a better job of
                              honoring His image?

                              Incidentally, I think this was one of the great weaknesses of the
                              Christian Reconstruction movement. They focused on the second table
                              commandments and how they would/should be implemented and neglected
                              reformation of worship.

                              MHO,
                              Cheryl
                            • Dan Fraas
                              They were in the wrong place at the wrong time, just like those Argentine nightclub attendees were in the wrong place at the wrong time when so many of them
                              Message 14 of 30 , Feb 16, 2005
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                                "They were in the wrong place at the wrong
                                time, just like those Argentine nightclub attendees were in the
                                wrong place at
                                the wrong time when so many of them got killed in the recent
                                destructive
                                nightclub incident."

                                Parnell,

                                Why do you say that the nightclub attendees were in the wrong place
                                at the wrong time?

                                Riley

                                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, jparnellm@u...
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > Larry, don't confuse the headline of the Worldnetdaily article
                                with what Rev
                                > MacLeod **actually** wrote. Please show me where in what Rev
                                MacLeod actually
                                > wrote that he said "Sabbath breaking caused the tsunami". That
                                headline twists
                                > Rev MacLeod's **actual** words. What Rev MacLeod asserted was:
                                >
                                > - The tsunami was decreed by God.
                                >
                                > - It was no mere accident that many died from the tsunami; God was
                                sovereign
                                > over their deaths and the destruction of the tsunami.
                                >
                                > - We should be asking why God might have decreed such
                                destruction. Often it is
                                > to punish sin. One *possible* factor was to judge the Sabbath
                                desecrators that
                                > were out playing on the beaches that day. It is a great sin to be
                                doing such.
                                >
                                >
                                > - Evil doers should be especially warned by such temporal
                                judgments as the
                                > recent tsunami.
                                >
                                > Please show me what you disagree with any of the above assertions.
                                >
                                > Your example of the incident of the tower falling is not really
                                analogous,
                                > because there was no obvious connection between the tower falling
                                and the death
                                > of those inside. But there is a *possible* connection between a
                                tsunami on the
                                > Lord's Day which destroys people playing on beaches and the death
                                of those
                                > playing on the beaches on Sunday. They were in the wrong place at
                                the wrong
                                > time, just like those Argentine nightclub attendees were in the
                                wrong place at
                                > the wrong time when so many of them got killed in the recent
                                destructive
                                > nightclub incident.
                                >
                                > I think it would be wrong to assert that the sin was the cause of
                                the event, but
                                > I think it would be naive to dismiss the *possibility* that was
                                one reason God
                                > brought it to pass.
                                >
                                > - Parnell McCarter
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > Quoting Larry Bump <lbump@b...>:
                                >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ----- Original Message -----
                                > > From: "Jason Robert Schuiling" <jrschuiling@y...>
                                > > >
                                > > > As little as my opinion is worth I for one would commend Pastor
                                > > > MacLeod. It is most doubtful that Sabbath-breaking would be
                                the sole
                                > > > cause of such judgement, but we must not forget that Sabbath-
                                > > > breaking is very much part and parcel of gross idolatry. God
                                has
                                > > > esteemed to put the observance of his holy-day so highly as to
                                make
                                > > > it one among the four commandments summarizing our chief
                                religious
                                > > > duties, we should not take it less lightly than he has.
                                > >
                                > > The point is that there are so very many possible sins that it
                                is silly to
                                > > narrow it to this. Someone promoting their hobby horse (not to
                                minimize the
                                > > sin) to a root cause.
                                > >
                                > > If Yahweh were prone to visit violations of the Sabbath
                                Ordinance in such a
                                > > fashion, where was the meteor at the Super Bowl? Sins of this
                                sort would be
                                > > more likely to be punished in an ostensibly Christian land,
                                rather than one
                                > > where the Gospel has never held sway.
                                > >
                                > > The commercialization of paedophilia, idolatry, etc. are better
                                motives, if
                                > > one were prone to pick which sin was being punished. It is
                                *not* within the
                                > > role of the Church, nor her officers, to assign such a ranking
                                or motivation
                                > > to the Lord, absent revelation. That is the point.
                                > >
                                > > Larry
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > ---
                                > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                                > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                > > Version: 6.0.851 / Virus Database: 579 - Release Date: 1/28/2005
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                              • jparnellm@usxchange.net
                                Riley, my short answer is: when one parties with animals, one should not be surprised when one gets bitten. Here is from an article about what happened:
                                Message 15 of 30 , Feb 16, 2005
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Riley, my short answer is: when one parties with animals, one should not be
                                  surprised when one gets bitten.

                                  Here is from an article about what happened:

                                  __________________________________________________________________

                                  “Scores die in Argentine blaze

                                  A blaze in a crowded Argentine nightclub has killed at least 175 people and
                                  injured 714.

                                  Buenos Aires Health Secretary Alfredo Stern told local television on Friday that
                                  "the city does not remember such a terrible situation".

                                  Local media reported that as many as 5000 to 6000 people may have been inside
                                  the club listening to a band play when the blaze broke out an hour just before
                                  midnight.

                                  Witnesses said the fire started when a flare was shot into the club's ceiling,
                                  which was covered with foam. There was a stampede and many people fainted from
                                  inhaling smoke.

                                  "There are versions that flares caused the fire, but I cannot confirm this until
                                  we have more information from the fire department," Mayor Anibal Ibarra said.

                                  Parents panic

                                  Police said the fire was extinguished quickly, but rescue workers continued to
                                  remove people on stretchers from inside the club. Television showed pictures of
                                  the bodies of young people lying on the sidewalks outside the club.

                                  Parents rushed to the scene desperate to find their sons and daughters amid the
                                  chaos. Dozens of ambulances took the injured to 14 hospitals in the city.”

                                  __________________________________________________________________

                                  The scene was one of wild and lewd dancing and music, intoxication, late in the
                                  night. There are physical as well as spiritual dangers when one engages in
                                  such activities in such company, just as there are physical as well as
                                  spiritual dangers associated with playing on a beach on a Lord's Day. God does
                                  not always strike such people dead, but we should not be surprised when He
                                  does.
                                  And when He does, we should take it as a warning.

                                  - Parnell



                                  Quoting Dan Fraas <fraasrd@...>:

                                  >
                                  >
                                  > "They were in the wrong place at the wrong
                                  > time, just like those Argentine nightclub attendees were in the
                                  > wrong place at
                                  > the wrong time when so many of them got killed in the recent
                                  > destructive
                                  > nightclub incident."
                                  >
                                  > Parnell,
                                  >
                                  > Why do you say that the nightclub attendees were in the wrong place
                                  > at the wrong time?
                                  >
                                  > Riley
                                  >
                                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, jparnellm@u...
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > Larry, don't confuse the headline of the Worldnetdaily article
                                  > with what Rev
                                  > > MacLeod **actually** wrote. Please show me where in what Rev
                                  > MacLeod actually
                                  > > wrote that he said "Sabbath breaking caused the tsunami". That
                                  > headline twists
                                  > > Rev MacLeod's **actual** words. What Rev MacLeod asserted was:
                                  > >
                                  > > - The tsunami was decreed by God.
                                  > >
                                  > > - It was no mere accident that many died from the tsunami; God was
                                  > sovereign
                                  > > over their deaths and the destruction of the tsunami.
                                  > >
                                  > > - We should be asking why God might have decreed such
                                  > destruction. Often it is
                                  > > to punish sin. One *possible* factor was to judge the Sabbath
                                  > desecrators that
                                  > > were out playing on the beaches that day. It is a great sin to be
                                  > doing such.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > - Evil doers should be especially warned by such temporal
                                  > judgments as the
                                  > > recent tsunami.
                                  > >
                                  > > Please show me what you disagree with any of the above assertions.
                                  > >
                                  > > Your example of the incident of the tower falling is not really
                                  > analogous,
                                  > > because there was no obvious connection between the tower falling
                                  > and the death
                                  > > of those inside. But there is a *possible* connection between a
                                  > tsunami on the
                                  > > Lord's Day which destroys people playing on beaches and the death
                                  > of those
                                  > > playing on the beaches on Sunday. They were in the wrong place at
                                  > the wrong
                                  > > time, just like those Argentine nightclub attendees were in the
                                  > wrong place at
                                  > > the wrong time when so many of them got killed in the recent
                                  > destructive
                                  > > nightclub incident.
                                  > >
                                  > > I think it would be wrong to assert that the sin was the cause of
                                  > the event, but
                                  > > I think it would be naive to dismiss the *possibility* that was
                                  > one reason God
                                  > > brought it to pass.
                                  > >
                                  > > - Parnell McCarter
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Quoting Larry Bump <lbump@b...>:
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ----- Original Message -----
                                  > > > From: "Jason Robert Schuiling" <jrschuiling@y...>
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > As little as my opinion is worth I for one would commend Pastor
                                  > > > > MacLeod. It is most doubtful that Sabbath-breaking would be
                                  > the sole
                                  > > > > cause of such judgement, but we must not forget that Sabbath-
                                  > > > > breaking is very much part and parcel of gross idolatry. God
                                  > has
                                  > > > > esteemed to put the observance of his holy-day so highly as to
                                  > make
                                  > > > > it one among the four commandments summarizing our chief
                                  > religious
                                  > > > > duties, we should not take it less lightly than he has.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The point is that there are so very many possible sins that it
                                  > is silly to
                                  > > > narrow it to this. Someone promoting their hobby horse (not to
                                  > minimize the
                                  > > > sin) to a root cause.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > If Yahweh were prone to visit violations of the Sabbath
                                  > Ordinance in such a
                                  > > > fashion, where was the meteor at the Super Bowl? Sins of this
                                  > sort would be
                                  > > > more likely to be punished in an ostensibly Christian land,
                                  > rather than one
                                  > > > where the Gospel has never held sway.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The commercialization of paedophilia, idolatry, etc. are better
                                  > motives, if
                                  > > > one were prone to pick which sin was being punished. It is
                                  > *not* within the
                                  > > > role of the Church, nor her officers, to assign such a ranking
                                  > or motivation
                                  > > > to the Lord, absent revelation. That is the point.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Larry
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ---
                                  > > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
                                  > > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
                                  > > > Version: 6.0.851 / Virus Database: 579 - Release Date: 1/28/2005
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Larry Bump
                                  ... That, I believe, is the crux of the matter, and what Pastor MacLeod was driving at when he was (willfully?) misunderstood by the press. Larry
                                  Message 16 of 30 , Feb 16, 2005
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    jparnellm@... wrote:
                                    > God does not always strike such people dead,
                                    > but we should not be surprised when He does.
                                    > And when He does, we should take it as a warning.


                                    That, I believe, is the crux of the matter, and what Pastor MacLeod was
                                    driving at when he was (willfully?) misunderstood by the press.

                                    Larry
                                  • Robbie Stark
                                    Sabbath Desecrators ? What might a Sabbath Desecrators be? Is there a Scriptural definition for such a one? What must one do, or be, to desecrate a
                                    Message 17 of 30 , Feb 16, 2005
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      "Sabbath Desecrators" ? What might a Sabbath Desecrators be? Is there a
                                      Scriptural definition for such a one?
                                      What must one do, or be, to desecrate a Sabbath?

                                      Color me Curious.

                                      Robbie

                                      I'll cut to the chase, My Wife and I go to Yankee Stadium on Sunday April
                                      3rd, to see the Opening game, Yankees/Red Sox, a terrorist attack takes
                                      place, we are killed, did we deserve that by being at Yankee Stadium on
                                      Sunday? Is THAT desecrating the Sabbath?
                                      Just trying to understand





                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "J. Parnell McCarter" <jparnellm@...>
                                      To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 10:11 PM
                                      Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says Sabbath
                                      Breaking Caused Tsunami


                                      >
                                      >
                                      >>I do not understand what you are saying about the Tower of Siloam being
                                      > different; there is a quite obvious connection between the falling of
                                      > the tower and the people's death. Jesus specifically stated that
                                      > individual sin is not to be imputed due to bad things happening to said
                                      > individual; that the death is something that should remind us of our
                                      > mortality and need for a Savior.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Larry, I did not word my statement clearly or properly. Let me try again.
                                      > In the Tower case, there was no obvious sin that the people destroyed by
                                      > the
                                      > disaster had obviously committed. Therefore, we should not assume, just
                                      > because there was a disaster, that the people affected were necessarily
                                      > judged for a heinous sin on their part. Contrast that with Sodom and its
                                      > disaster. There was heinous sin in Sodom, so we would be right to
                                      > consider
                                      > their disaster a judgment for their specific heinous sin.
                                      >
                                      > But in the case of people playing on the beach on the Sunday of the
                                      > tsunami,
                                      > there was obvious sin. Therefore, we are right in concluding such Sabbath
                                      > desecrators playing on the beach on the day of the tsunami were judged
                                      > when
                                      > God decreed the tsunami to fall upon them.
                                      >
                                      >>I can't understand how you can look at a region catering to paedophilia
                                      > and all sorts of rampant idolatry and sin, and point to Sabbath-breaking
                                      > as the sin that set off the judgment.
                                      >
                                      > Yes, and Rev MacLeod in his article noted those other sins. Keep in mind
                                      > that Rev MacLeod is in Britain, and many of the Europeans that were killed
                                      > in the disaster were vacationing in the region, and playing on the beach
                                      > on
                                      > the Lord's Day. That is where the Sabbath desecration comes in.
                                      >
                                      > But you are surely right that the tsunami was surely decreed in judgment
                                      > of
                                      > various and sundry sins, and we cannot know the priority of reasons God
                                      > decreed the tsunami. Just keep in mind that Rev MacLeod did not claim to
                                      > know that either.
                                      >
                                      > - Parnell McCarter
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Glenn Ferrell
                                      Isaiah 58 13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD,
                                      Message 18 of 30 , Feb 16, 2005
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Isaiah 58
                                         
                                        13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

                                           14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

                                         

                                        Robbie:

                                        Attending opening day on the Lord's Day would make you a Sabbath breaker.  God would be justified in allowing a terrorist attack on Yankee Stadium on any day.  If it happened to be the Lord's Day, all will have one more sin to answer for.

                                        Glenn

                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 3:13 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says Sabbath Breaking Caused Tsunami




                                        "Sabbath Desecrators" ?  What might a Sabbath Desecrators be?  Is there a
                                        Scriptural definition for such a one?
                                        What must one do, or be, to desecrate a Sabbath?

                                        Color me Curious.

                                        Robbie

                                        I'll cut to the chase, My Wife and I go to Yankee Stadium on Sunday April
                                        3rd, to see the Opening game, Yankees/Red Sox, a terrorist attack takes
                                        place, we are killed, did we deserve that by being at Yankee Stadium on
                                        Sunday? Is THAT desecrating the Sabbath?
                                        Just trying to understand





                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "J. Parnell McCarter" <jparnellm@...>
                                        To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 10:11 PM
                                        Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says Sabbath
                                        Breaking Caused Tsunami


                                        >
                                        >
                                        >>I do not understand what you are saying about the Tower of Siloam being
                                        > different; there is a quite obvious connection between the falling of
                                        > the tower and the people's death.  Jesus specifically stated that
                                        > individual sin is not to be imputed due to bad things happening to said
                                        > individual; that the death is something that should remind us of our
                                        > mortality and need for a Savior.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Larry, I did not word my statement clearly or properly.  Let me try again.
                                        > In the Tower case, there was no obvious sin that the people destroyed by
                                        > the
                                        > disaster had obviously committed. Therefore, we should not assume, just
                                        > because there was a disaster, that the people affected were necessarily
                                        > judged for a heinous sin on their part. Contrast that with Sodom and its
                                        > disaster.  There was heinous sin in Sodom, so we would be right to
                                        > consider
                                        > their disaster a judgment for their specific heinous sin.
                                        >
                                        > But in the case of people playing on the beach on the Sunday of the
                                        > tsunami,
                                        > there was obvious sin.  Therefore, we are right in concluding such Sabbath
                                        > desecrators playing on the beach on the day of the tsunami were judged
                                        > when
                                        > God decreed the tsunami to fall upon them.
                                        >
                                        >>I can't understand how you can look at a region catering to paedophilia
                                        > and all sorts of rampant idolatry and sin, and point to Sabbath-breaking
                                        > as the sin that set off the judgment.
                                        >
                                        > Yes, and Rev MacLeod in his article noted those other sins.  Keep in mind
                                        > that Rev MacLeod is in Britain, and many of the Europeans that were killed
                                        > in the disaster were vacationing in the region, and playing on the beach
                                        > on
                                        > the Lord's Day.  That is where the Sabbath desecration comes in.
                                        >
                                        > But you are surely right that the tsunami was surely decreed in judgment
                                        > of
                                        > various and sundry sins, and we cannot know the priority of reasons God
                                        > decreed the tsunami.  Just keep in mind that Rev MacLeod did not claim to
                                        > know that either.
                                        >
                                        > - Parnell McCarter
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >







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                                      • Robbie Stark
                                        Here we go again...... Who turned the Saturday Sabbath for the Jew Into Sunday Sabbath For the New Covenant believer? Robbie Wait, Let me get this
                                        Message 19 of 30 , Feb 16, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Here we go again......
                                           
                                          Who turned the Saturday Sabbath for the Jew Into Sunday "Sabbath"  For the New Covenant  believer?
                                           
                                          Robbie   
                                           
                                           
                                          Wait, Let me get this straight...I sinned every time I attended a Jet game on Sunday?  (About 50-60 of them, which some people think attending ANY Jet game is a sin, in and of itself, but, I digress)
                                           
                                          I sinned last Sunday Aug 8TH, When I was at Yankee Stadium watching Gary Sheffield CRUSH a ball off the Left Field upper deck facade?
                                           
                                          Wow.  John Bunyan must be spinning in his grave over this one.
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 6:29 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says Sabbath Breaking Caused Tsunami

                                          Isaiah 58
                                           
                                          13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

                                             14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

                                           

                                          Robbie:

                                          Attending opening day on the Lord's Day would make you a Sabbath breaker.  God would be justified in allowing a terrorist attack on Yankee Stadium on any day.  If it happened to be the Lord's Day, all will have one more sin to answer for.

                                          Glenn

                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 3:13 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says Sabbath Breaking Caused Tsunami




                                          "Sabbath Desecrators" ?  What might a Sabbath Desecrators be?  Is there a
                                          Scriptural definition for such a one?
                                          What must one do, or be, to desecrate a Sabbath?

                                          Color me Curious.

                                          Robbie

                                          I'll cut to the chase, My Wife and I go to Yankee Stadium on Sunday April
                                          3rd, to see the Opening game, Yankees/Red Sox, a terrorist attack takes
                                          place, we are killed, did we deserve that by being at Yankee Stadium on
                                          Sunday? Is THAT desecrating the Sabbath?
                                          Just trying to understand





                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          From: "J. Parnell McCarter" <jparnellm@...>
                                          To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                          Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 10:11 PM
                                          Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says Sabbath
                                          Breaking Caused Tsunami


                                          >
                                          >
                                          >>I do not understand what you are saying about the Tower of Siloam being
                                          > different; there is a quite obvious connection between the falling of
                                          > the tower and the people's death.  Jesus specifically stated that
                                          > individual sin is not to be imputed due to bad things happening to said
                                          > individual; that the death is something that should remind us of our
                                          > mortality and need for a Savior.
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Larry, I did not word my statement clearly or properly.  Let me try again.
                                          > In the Tower case, there was no obvious sin that the people destroyed by
                                          > the
                                          > disaster had obviously committed. Therefore, we should not assume, just
                                          > because there was a disaster, that the people affected were necessarily
                                          > judged for a heinous sin on their part. Contrast that with Sodom and its
                                          > disaster.  There was heinous sin in Sodom, so we would be right to
                                          > consider
                                          > their disaster a judgment for their specific heinous sin.
                                          >
                                          > But in the case of people playing on the beach on the Sunday of the
                                          > tsunami,
                                          > there was obvious sin.  Therefore, we are right in concluding such Sabbath
                                          > desecrators playing on the beach on the day of the tsunami were judged
                                          > when
                                          > God decreed the tsunami to fall upon them.
                                          >
                                          >>I can't understand how you can look at a region catering to paedophilia
                                          > and all sorts of rampant idolatry and sin, and point to Sabbath-breaking
                                          > as the sin that set off the judgment.
                                          >
                                          > Yes, and Rev MacLeod in his article noted those other sins.  Keep in mind
                                          > that Rev MacLeod is in Britain, and many of the Europeans that were killed
                                          > in the disaster were vacationing in the region, and playing on the beach
                                          > on
                                          > the Lord's Day.  That is where the Sabbath desecration comes in.
                                          >
                                          > But you are surely right that the tsunami was surely decreed in judgment
                                          > of
                                          > various and sundry sins, and we cannot know the priority of reasons God
                                          > decreed the tsunami.  Just keep in mind that Rev MacLeod did not claim to
                                          > know that either.
                                          >
                                          > - Parnell McCarter
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >







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                                          Network for Good is THE place to support health awareness efforts!
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                                          --------------------------------------------------------------------~->

                                           
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                                          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/

                                          <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

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                                        • gmw
                                          What is our rule for righteous living? gmw. ... etc.
                                          Message 20 of 30 , Feb 16, 2005
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                                            What is our rule for righteous living?

                                            gmw.

                                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Robbie Stark
                                            <igrus@o...> wrote:
                                            > Here we go again......

                                            etc.
                                          • Larry Bump
                                            ... Don t worry, he knows better now. ;-) Larry
                                            Message 21 of 30 , Feb 16, 2005
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Robbie Stark wrote:
                                              > Wow. John Bunyan must be spinning in his grave over this one.

                                              Don't worry, he knows better now.
                                              ;-)

                                              Larry
                                            • Robbie Stark
                                              I appreciate the humor of this remark. I have now another issue with C/T Besides their Pre-supposition of a Covenant of Works/Grace with Adam, which, though I
                                              Message 22 of 30 , Feb 16, 2005
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                I appreciate the humor of this remark. I have now another issue with C/T
                                                Besides their Pre-supposition of a Covenant of Works/Grace with Adam, which,
                                                though I could certainly be wrong, I "BELIEVE" Is the basis of the C/T
                                                argument,
                                                I also suppose an understanding of the other fella's way of thinking can
                                                help get to the heart of the matter.

                                                I see no Scriptural support for either I/B, and ABSOLUTELY see no Scriptural
                                                support for a Sunday Sabbath, nor a Legal Sabbath of ANY kind, I know C/T
                                                does for I/B, I had been told/led to believe on other lists, Presby
                                                dominated, that C/T or maybe more specifically WCF did NOT hold to a Legal
                                                Sunday Sabbath. I may be wrong here also, but because of what other list
                                                moderators told me in response to this question.

                                                I am sorry to say, and expect no favorable reply, but this passes Fundie's
                                                and comes dangerously close to a very "Romish" view on things,

                                                Perhaps this wont even be allowed to post via moderator intervention, and I
                                                guess this is Not a list for me, But I now understand why Dr. Ted Letis
                                                talks of a exodus from certain "Reformed/Calvinist" Circles, Presby
                                                dominated back to Rome, and she eagerly awaits with open arms, I wondered
                                                why there is some much dissention within Presby ranks and a Grotesque
                                                liberalism that I am sure horrifies some, if not all on this list. Bad
                                                Theology and Extra-Biblical Doctrines will do that for ANY Denomination,
                                                Presbyterians have no exclusivity here, Baptist's and other folks are
                                                crumbling all around us.

                                                Mr. Moderator, I will lurk here unless you decide to pack me up and ship
                                                off. Your list, your call.

                                                Me, I am feverishly looking to "Score" tix for For a Sunday Home Opener,
                                                Yanks/Red Sox. April 3rd and am Scripturally sure I will not violate any of
                                                Gods commands for me in doing so

                                                Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath, So I say, "Play Ball"





                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "Larry Bump" <lbump@...>
                                                To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 9:14 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says Sabbath
                                                Breaking Caused Tsunami


                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Robbie Stark wrote:
                                                >> Wow. John Bunyan must be spinning in his grave over this one.
                                                >
                                                > Don't worry, he knows better now.
                                                > ;-)
                                                >
                                                > Larry
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                                >
                                              • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                                                C mon Glenn that s the Old Testament...no one believes that anymore..it is just a historical curiosity and all... besides we only believe in 6 or 9 commadments
                                                Message 23 of 30 , Feb 16, 2005
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  C'mon Glenn that's the Old Testament...no one believes that
                                                  anymore..it is just a historical curiosity and all...

                                                  besides we only believe in 6 or 9 commadments (depending on your
                                                  leader)...Ten..well that was for the Jews only...where have youe
                                                  been??

                                                  Trying to demonstrate the foolishness,

                                                  Edgar

                                                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Ferrell"
                                                  <jglennferrell@m...> wrote:
                                                  > Isaiah 58
                                                  >
                                                  > 13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy
                                                  pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of
                                                  the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own
                                                  ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
                                                  > 14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause
                                                  thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with
                                                  the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath
                                                  spoken it.
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Robbie:
                                                  >
                                                  > Attending opening day on the Lord's Day would make you a Sabbath
                                                  breaker. God would be justified in allowing a terrorist attack on
                                                  Yankee Stadium on any day. If it happened to be the Lord's Day, all
                                                  will have one more sin to answer for.
                                                  >
                                                  > Glenn
                                                  >
                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > From: Robbie Stark<mailto:igrus@o...>
                                                  > To:
                                                  covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com<mailto:covenantedreformatio
                                                  nclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  > Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 3:13 PM
                                                  > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says
                                                  Sabbath Breaking Caused Tsunami
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > "Sabbath Desecrators" ? What might a Sabbath Desecrators be?
                                                  Is there a
                                                  > Scriptural definition for such a one?
                                                  > What must one do, or be, to desecrate a Sabbath?
                                                  >
                                                  > Color me Curious.
                                                  >
                                                  > Robbie
                                                  >
                                                  > I'll cut to the chase, My Wife and I go to Yankee Stadium on
                                                  Sunday April
                                                  > 3rd, to see the Opening game, Yankees/Red Sox, a terrorist
                                                  attack takes
                                                  > place, we are killed, did we deserve that by being at Yankee
                                                  Stadium on
                                                  > Sunday? Is THAT desecrating the Sabbath?
                                                  > Just trying to understand
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > ----- Original Message -----
                                                  > From: "J. Parnell McCarter"
                                                  <jparnellm@u...<mailto:jparnellm@u...>>
                                                  > To:
                                                  <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com<mailto:covenantedreformati
                                                  onclub@yahoogroups.com>>
                                                  > Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 10:11 PM
                                                  > Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says
                                                  Sabbath
                                                  > Breaking Caused Tsunami
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >>I do not understand what you are saying about the Tower of
                                                  Siloam being
                                                  > > different; there is a quite obvious connection between the
                                                  falling of
                                                  > > the tower and the people's death. Jesus specifically stated
                                                  that
                                                  > > individual sin is not to be imputed due to bad things
                                                  happening to said
                                                  > > individual; that the death is something that should remind us
                                                  of our
                                                  > > mortality and need for a Savior.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Larry, I did not word my statement clearly or properly. Let
                                                  me try again.
                                                  > > In the Tower case, there was no obvious sin that the people
                                                  destroyed by
                                                  > > the
                                                  > > disaster had obviously committed. Therefore, we should not
                                                  assume, just
                                                  > > because there was a disaster, that the people affected were
                                                  necessarily
                                                  > > judged for a heinous sin on their part. Contrast that with
                                                  Sodom and its
                                                  > > disaster. There was heinous sin in Sodom, so we would be
                                                  right to
                                                  > > consider
                                                  > > their disaster a judgment for their specific heinous sin.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > But in the case of people playing on the beach on the Sunday
                                                  of the
                                                  > > tsunami,
                                                  > > there was obvious sin. Therefore, we are right in concluding
                                                  such Sabbath
                                                  > > desecrators playing on the beach on the day of the tsunami
                                                  were judged
                                                  > > when
                                                  > > God decreed the tsunami to fall upon them.
                                                  > >
                                                  > >>I can't understand how you can look at a region catering to
                                                  paedophilia
                                                  > > and all sorts of rampant idolatry and sin, and point to
                                                  Sabbath-breaking
                                                  > > as the sin that set off the judgment.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Yes, and Rev MacLeod in his article noted those other sins.
                                                  Keep in mind
                                                  > > that Rev MacLeod is in Britain, and many of the Europeans that
                                                  were killed
                                                  > > in the disaster were vacationing in the region, and playing on
                                                  the beach
                                                  > > on
                                                  > > the Lord's Day. That is where the Sabbath desecration comes
                                                  in.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > But you are surely right that the tsunami was surely decreed
                                                  in judgment
                                                  > > of
                                                  > > various and sundry sins, and we cannot know the priority of
                                                  reasons God
                                                  > > decreed the tsunami. Just keep in mind that Rev MacLeod did
                                                  not claim to
                                                  > > know that either.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > - Parnell McCarter
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                • gmw
                                                  ... wrote: A denial of infant baptism... A denial of the Covenant of Works, and the Covenant of Grace... A denial of the Christian Sabbath based
                                                  Message 24 of 30 , Feb 16, 2005
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Robbie Stark
                                                    <igrus@o...> wrote:

                                                    A denial of infant baptism...

                                                    A denial of the Covenant of Works, and the Covenant of Grace...

                                                    A denial of the Christian Sabbath based on what can only be a denial
                                                    of the Ten Commandments as our rule for righteous living...

                                                    Seeing that all of these things are the teachings of Scripture
                                                    recognized and upheld by our Reformed subordinate Standards, I cannot
                                                    disagree with Mr. Bump's judgment that this is heresy.

                                                    You have my permission to lurk and learn.

                                                    gmw.


                                                    > Besides their Pre-supposition of a Covenant of Works/Grace with
                                                    > Adam, [snip] I see no Scriptural support for either I/B, and
                                                    > ABSOLUTELY see no Scriptural
                                                    > support for a Sunday Sabbath, etc.
                                                  • Glenn Ferrell
                                                    Which brings to mind two questions for Robbie: 1) How many of the Commandments are binding? 2) If not the first day of the week, what day does he keep as a
                                                    Message 25 of 30 , Feb 16, 2005
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                      Which brings to mind two questions for Robbie:
                                                       
                                                      1)  How many of the Commandments are binding?
                                                       
                                                      2)  If not the first day of the week, what day does he keep as a Sabbath?
                                                       
                                                      Establish if there is a continuing Sabbath; begin to keep one; then we'll discuss which day it should be.
                                                       
                                                      People who want to argue over what day is the Sabbath usually don't keep any.  I have more respect for an Orthodox Jew or Seventh Day Adventist who keeps some Sabbath than "orthodox" Christians who keep none.
                                                       
                                                      Glenn
                                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                                      Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 8:53 PM
                                                      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says Sabbath Breaking Caused Tsunami



                                                      C'mon Glenn that's the Old Testament...no one believes that
                                                      anymore..it is just a historical curiosity and all...

                                                      besides we only believe in 6 or 9 commadments (depending on your
                                                      leader)...Ten..well that was for the Jews only...where have youe
                                                      been??

                                                      Trying to demonstrate the foolishness,

                                                      Edgar

                                                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Glenn Ferrell"
                                                      <jglennferrell@m...> wrote:
                                                      > Isaiah 58
                                                      >
                                                      > 13If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy
                                                      pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of
                                                      the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own
                                                      ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:
                                                      >    14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause
                                                      thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with
                                                      the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath
                                                      spoken it.
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > Robbie:
                                                      >
                                                      > Attending opening day on the Lord's Day would make you a Sabbath
                                                      breaker.  God would be justified in allowing a terrorist attack on
                                                      Yankee Stadium on any day.  If it happened to be the Lord's Day, all
                                                      will have one more sin to answer for.
                                                      >
                                                      > Glenn
                                                      >
                                                      >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                      >   From: Robbie Stark<mailto:igrus@o...>
                                                      >   To:
                                                      covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com<mailto:covenantedreformatio
                                                      nclub@yahoogroups.com>
                                                      >   Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 3:13 PM
                                                      >   Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says
                                                      Sabbath Breaking Caused Tsunami
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >   "Sabbath Desecrators" ?  What might a Sabbath Desecrators be? 
                                                      Is there a
                                                      >   Scriptural definition for such a one?
                                                      >   What must one do, or be, to desecrate a Sabbath?
                                                      >
                                                      >   Color me Curious.
                                                      >
                                                      >   Robbie
                                                      >
                                                      >   I'll cut to the chase, My Wife and I go to Yankee Stadium on
                                                      Sunday April
                                                      >   3rd, to see the Opening game, Yankees/Red Sox, a terrorist
                                                      attack takes
                                                      >   place, we are killed, did we deserve that by being at Yankee
                                                      Stadium on
                                                      >   Sunday? Is THAT desecrating the Sabbath?
                                                      >   Just trying to understand
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >   ----- Original Message -----
                                                      >   From: "J. Parnell McCarter"
                                                      <jparnellm@u...<mailto:jparnellm@u...>>
                                                      >   To:
                                                      <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com<mailto:covenantedreformati
                                                      onclub@yahoogroups.com>>
                                                      >   Sent: Tuesday, February 15, 2005 10:11 PM
                                                      >   Subject: RE: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says
                                                      Sabbath
                                                      >   Breaking Caused Tsunami
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >>I do not understand what you are saying about the Tower of
                                                      Siloam being
                                                      >   > different; there is a quite obvious connection between the
                                                      falling of
                                                      >   > the tower and the people's death.  Jesus specifically stated
                                                      that
                                                      >   > individual sin is not to be imputed due to bad things
                                                      happening to said
                                                      >   > individual; that the death is something that should remind us
                                                      of our
                                                      >   > mortality and need for a Savior.
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   > Larry, I did not word my statement clearly or properly.  Let
                                                      me try again.
                                                      >   > In the Tower case, there was no obvious sin that the people
                                                      destroyed by
                                                      >   > the
                                                      >   > disaster had obviously committed. Therefore, we should not
                                                      assume, just
                                                      >   > because there was a disaster, that the people affected were
                                                      necessarily
                                                      >   > judged for a heinous sin on their part. Contrast that with
                                                      Sodom and its
                                                      >   > disaster.  There was heinous sin in Sodom, so we would be
                                                      right to
                                                      >   > consider
                                                      >   > their disaster a judgment for their specific heinous sin.
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   > But in the case of people playing on the beach on the Sunday
                                                      of the
                                                      >   > tsunami,
                                                      >   > there was obvious sin.  Therefore, we are right in concluding
                                                      such Sabbath
                                                      >   > desecrators playing on the beach on the day of the tsunami
                                                      were judged
                                                      >   > when
                                                      >   > God decreed the tsunami to fall upon them.
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >>I can't understand how you can look at a region catering to
                                                      paedophilia
                                                      >   > and all sorts of rampant idolatry and sin, and point to
                                                      Sabbath-breaking
                                                      >   > as the sin that set off the judgment.
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   > Yes, and Rev MacLeod in his article noted those other sins. 
                                                      Keep in mind
                                                      >   > that Rev MacLeod is in Britain, and many of the Europeans that
                                                      were killed
                                                      >   > in the disaster were vacationing in the region, and playing on
                                                      the beach
                                                      >   > on
                                                      >   > the Lord's Day.  That is where the Sabbath desecration comes
                                                      in.
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   > But you are surely right that the tsunami was surely decreed
                                                      in judgment
                                                      >   > of
                                                      >   > various and sundry sins, and we cannot know the priority of
                                                      reasons God
                                                      >   > decreed the tsunami.  Just keep in mind that Rev MacLeod did
                                                      not claim to
                                                      >   > know that either.
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   > - Parnell McCarter
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >   >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >   
                                                      >   Yahoo! Groups Links





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                                                    • Dan Fraas
                                                      ... intoxication, late in the ... Well certainly I wouldn t be surprised if some of this was going on, but I don t think we can assume that all those who died
                                                      Message 26 of 30 , Feb 17, 2005
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        > The scene was one of wild and lewd dancing and music,
                                                        intoxication, late in the
                                                        > night.

                                                        Well certainly I wouldn't be surprised if some of this was going on,
                                                        but I don't think we can assume that all those who died were dancing
                                                        lewdly or getting intoxicated. The article-snippet you posted just
                                                        said they were listening to a band play. I haven't read any of the
                                                        band lyrics to tell you whether the music was "lewd" either. I
                                                        think we ought to be careful not to place burdens on believers by
                                                        making up new sins that God hasn't declared in his word.

                                                        Riley
                                                      • Dan Fraas
                                                        ... Exactly, Robbie. You asked who changed the Sabbath to Sunday. I think you ve answered your own question. Examine the Scriptural evidence. Your brother
                                                        Message 27 of 30 , Feb 17, 2005
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          > Jesus is Lord of the Sabbath,

                                                          Exactly, Robbie. You asked who changed the Sabbath to Sunday. I
                                                          think you've answered your own question. Examine the Scriptural
                                                          evidence.

                                                          Your brother in Christ,

                                                          Riley
                                                        • J. Parnell McCarter
                                                          Dan, the article I posted is one of many I could have. About 4,000 people, mostly teenagers, were inside the club for a concert of the Argentine rock band Los
                                                          Message 28 of 30 , Feb 17, 2005
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Dan, the article I posted is one of many I could have.

                                                            "About 4,000 people, mostly teenagers, were inside the club for a concert of
                                                            the Argentine rock band Los Callejeros when the fire broke out late
                                                            Thursday."

                                                            " In the early hours of December 31, more than 4000 people were enjoying
                                                            local rock band Los Callejeros in Buenos Aires when suddenly joy became
                                                            misery. A fire ripped through the Republica Cromagnon nightclub, killing 190
                                                            people, and leaving more than 700 injured. Most of those attending were
                                                            young people from poorer working-class suburbs. One was Julian Rozengardt,
                                                            18 years' old with a red star tattooed on his chest. He lost his girlfriend
                                                            in the pandemonium that followed the fire. He remained in the disco, looking
                                                            for her, but when he left the building, it was too late. The fumes had
                                                            already poisoned him."



                                                            Q. 139. What are the sins forbidden in the seventh commandment?

                                                            A. The sins forbidden in the seventh commandment, besides the neglect of the
                                                            duties required,[780] are, adultery, fornication,[781] rape, incest,[782]
                                                            sodomy, and all unnatural lusts;[783] all unclean imaginations, thoughts,
                                                            purposes, and affections;[784] all corrupt or filthy communications, or
                                                            listening thereunto;[785] wanton looks,[786] impudent or light behaviour,
                                                            immodest apparel;[787] prohibiting of lawful,[788] and dispensing with
                                                            unlawful marriages;[789] allowing, tolerating, keeping of stews, and
                                                            resorting to them;[790] entangling vows of single life,[791] undue delay of
                                                            marriage,[792] having more wives or husbands than one at the same time;[793]
                                                            unjust divorce,[794] or desertion;[795] idleness, gluttony,
                                                            drunkenness,[796] unchaste company;[797] lascivious songs, books, pictures,
                                                            dancings, stage plays;[798] and all other provocations to, or acts of
                                                            uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.[799]

                                                            Riley, when the Puritans wrote "lascivious songs...dancings", the sorts of
                                                            activities at discos are included.

                                                            - Parnell McCarter



                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                            From: Dan Fraas [mailto:fraasrd@...]
                                                            Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:37 PM
                                                            To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says Sabbath
                                                            Breaking Caused Tsunami



                                                            > The scene was one of wild and lewd dancing and music,
                                                            intoxication, late in the
                                                            > night.

                                                            Well certainly I wouldn't be surprised if some of this was going on,
                                                            but I don't think we can assume that all those who died were dancing
                                                            lewdly or getting intoxicated. The article-snippet you posted just
                                                            said they were listening to a band play. I haven't read any of the
                                                            band lyrics to tell you whether the music was "lewd" either. I
                                                            think we ought to be careful not to place burdens on believers by
                                                            making up new sins that God hasn't declared in his word.

                                                            Riley







                                                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                          • Dan Fraas
                                                            ... concert of ... enjoying ... became ... killing 190 ... were ... Rozengardt, ... girlfriend ... disco, looking ... had ... neglect of the ... incest,[782]
                                                            Message 29 of 30 , Feb 18, 2005
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "J. Parnell
                                                              McCarter" <jparnellm@u...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > Dan, the article I posted is one of many I could have.
                                                              >
                                                              > "About 4,000 people, mostly teenagers, were inside the club for a
                                                              concert of
                                                              > the Argentine rock band Los Callejeros when the fire broke out late
                                                              > Thursday."
                                                              >
                                                              > " In the early hours of December 31, more than 4000 people were
                                                              enjoying
                                                              > local rock band Los Callejeros in Buenos Aires when suddenly joy
                                                              became
                                                              > misery. A fire ripped through the Republica Cromagnon nightclub,
                                                              killing 190
                                                              > people, and leaving more than 700 injured. Most of those attending
                                                              were
                                                              > young people from poorer working-class suburbs. One was Julian
                                                              Rozengardt,
                                                              > 18 years' old with a red star tattooed on his chest. He lost his
                                                              girlfriend
                                                              > in the pandemonium that followed the fire. He remained in the
                                                              disco, looking
                                                              > for her, but when he left the building, it was too late. The fumes
                                                              had
                                                              > already poisoned him."
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Q. 139. What are the sins forbidden in the seventh commandment?
                                                              >
                                                              > A. The sins forbidden in the seventh commandment, besides the
                                                              neglect of the
                                                              > duties required,[780] are, adultery, fornication,[781] rape,
                                                              incest,[782]
                                                              > sodomy, and all unnatural lusts;[783] all unclean imaginations,
                                                              thoughts,
                                                              > purposes, and affections;[784] all corrupt or filthy
                                                              communications, or
                                                              > listening thereunto;[785] wanton looks,[786] impudent or light
                                                              behaviour,
                                                              > immodest apparel;[787] prohibiting of lawful,[788] and dispensing
                                                              with
                                                              > unlawful marriages;[789] allowing, tolerating, keeping of stews,
                                                              and
                                                              > resorting to them;[790] entangling vows of single life,[791] undue
                                                              delay of
                                                              > marriage,[792] having more wives or husbands than one at the same
                                                              time;[793]
                                                              > unjust divorce,[794] or desertion;[795] idleness, gluttony,
                                                              > drunkenness,[796] unchaste company;[797] lascivious songs, books,
                                                              pictures,
                                                              > dancings, stage plays;[798] and all other provocations to, or acts
                                                              of
                                                              > uncleanness, either in ourselves or others.[799]
                                                              >
                                                              > Riley, when the Puritans wrote "lascivious songs...dancings", the
                                                              sorts of
                                                              > activities at discos are included.

                                                              That's quite an assumption to make. I don't see anything in the
                                                              article you posted showing that the songs and/or dancing was
                                                              lascivious.

                                                              Riley

                                                              >
                                                              > - Parnell McCarter
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > -----Original Message-----
                                                              > From: Dan Fraas [mailto:fraasrd@y...]
                                                              > Sent: Thursday, February 17, 2005 12:37 PM
                                                              > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                                              > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says
                                                              Sabbath
                                                              > Breaking Caused Tsunami
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > > The scene was one of wild and lewd dancing and music,
                                                              > intoxication, late in the
                                                              > > night.
                                                              >
                                                              > Well certainly I wouldn't be surprised if some of this was going
                                                              on,
                                                              > but I don't think we can assume that all those who died were
                                                              dancing
                                                              > lewdly or getting intoxicated. The article-snippet you posted
                                                              just
                                                              > said they were listening to a band play. I haven't read any of
                                                              the
                                                              > band lyrics to tell you whether the music was "lewd" either. I
                                                              > think we ought to be careful not to place burdens on believers by
                                                              > making up new sins that God hasn't declared in his word.
                                                              >
                                                              > Riley
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              >
                                                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                                            • Brainiac
                                                              WorldNetDaily: Sabbath-breaking caused tsunami Hi Jerry, (am always left behind) But, I was at the Bible bulletin board, and one of Spurgeon s sermons on
                                                              Message 30 of 30 , Mar 4 11:38 PM
                                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                                WorldNetDaily: Sabbath-breaking 'caused tsunami'
                                                                Hi Jerry, (am always left behind)
                                                                 
                                                                But,  I was at the Bible bulletin board,  and  one of Spurgeon's sermons on there talks about this very kind of thing.   So, are just sending the link, (even tho  this was awhile ago)  people who read can weigh it for themselves.
                                                                 
                                                                 
                                                                ~Deejay
                                                                 
                                                                 
                                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                                From: gmw
                                                                Sent: Monday, February 14, 2005 10:46 PM
                                                                Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Presbyterian Minister says Sabbath Breaking Caused Tsunami

                                                                Our family's reading through Amos, and I'm thinking that when preachers
                                                                speak on things like this, we should at the very least consider it very
                                                                carefully.

                                                                gmw.


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