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RE: Sproul VS Covenant

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  • Benjamin Hart
    OK, well what does Hebrews mean when it says the following? 2:1-4: Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 1, 2005
      OK, well what does Hebrews mean when it says the following?
       
      2:1-4:  Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
       
      6:4-6:  4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 *if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.
       
      10:26-31:  26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,"* *says the Lord. And again, "The Lord will judge His people."* 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
       
      Isn't it consistent Reformed orthodoxy that states that the covenant is made externally with any who take the name of Christ and are baptised, yet there is the internal aspect of the Covenant of Grace which is made with the elect, who shall surely not fall away?  Perhaps I didn't read Sproul carefully, but what he was saying seemed consistent with this.
       
      A caveat with respect to John Robbins - am I the only one who sees him as just loving to publicly bash people and sound like he's the church-appointed protector of orthodoxy?  Who would devote an article to the question of whether CS Lewis was in hell, and end insinuating he was?  I could go on forever about him and Clark, but I must restrain myself.  Am I the only one whose skin crawls whenever I read their writing?
       
      -Ben

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    • gmw
      Similar garbage was recently posted in Songs of Zion. It appears that the minions are out beating the bushes. gmw. ... we have heard, lest we drift away. 2
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 1, 2005
        Similar garbage was recently posted in Songs of Zion. It appears that
        the minions are out beating the bushes.

        gmw.

        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Hart
        <benhartmail@y...> wrote:
        > OK, well what does Hebrews mean when it says the following?
        >
        > 2:1-4: Therefore we must give the more earnest heed to the things
        we have heard, lest we drift away. 2 For if the word spoken through
        angels proved steadfast, and every transgression and disobedience
        received a just reward, 3 how shall we escape if we neglect so great a
        salvation, which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was
        confirmed to us by those who heard Him, 4 God also bearing witness
        both with signs and wonders, with various miracles, and gifts of the
        Holy Spirit, according to His own will?
        >
        > 6:4-6: 4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened,
        and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the
        Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of
        the age to come, 6 *if they fall away, to renew them again to
        repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God,
        and put Him to an open shame.
        >
        > 10:26-31: 26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the
        knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
        27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery
        indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has
        rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or
        three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will
        he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot,
        counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common
        thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said,
        "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,"* *says the Lord. And again, "The
        Lord will judge His people."* 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into
        the hands of the living God.
        > Isn't it consistent Reformed orthodoxy that states that the covenant
        is made externally with any who take the name of Christ and are
        baptised, yet there is the internal aspect of the Covenant of Grace
        which is made with the elect, who shall surely not fall away? Perhaps
        I didn't read Sproul carefully, but what he was saying seemed
        consistent with this.
        >
        > A caveat with respect to John Robbins - am I the only one who sees
        him as just loving to publicly bash people and sound like he's the
        church-appointed protector of orthodoxy? Who would devote an article
        to the question of whether CS Lewis was in hell, and end insinuating
        he was? I could go on forever about him and Clark, but I must
        restrain myself. Am I the only one whose skin crawls whenever I read
        their writing?
        >
        > -Ben
        >
        >
        > __________________________________________________
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
        > http://mail.yahoo.com
      • thebishopsdoom
        V. Moreover, as we restrict this covenant to the Elect, it is evident we are speaking of the internal, mystical, and spiritual communion of the covenant. For
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 1, 2005
          "V. Moreover, as we restrict this covenant to the Elect, it is
          evident we are speaking of the internal, mystical, and spiritual
          communion of the covenant. For salvation itself, and everything
          belonging to it, or inseparably connected with it, are promised in
          this covenant, all which, none but the Elect can attain to. If, in
          other respects, we consider the external economy of the covenant, in
          the communion of the word and sacraments, in the profession of the
          true faith, in the participation of many gifts, which, though
          excellent and illustrious, are yet none of the effects of the
          sanctifying Spirit, nor any earnest of future happiness; it cannot be
          denied, that, in this respect, many are in covenant, whose names,
          notwithstanding, are not in the testament of God." (Witsius, Economy
          of the Divine Covenants, bk 3 ch. 1)

          -thebishopsdoom
        • J. Parnell McCarter
          ... made externally with any who take the name of Christ and are baptised, yet there is the internal aspect of the Covenant of Grace which is made with the
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 1, 2005

            >Isn't it consistent Reformed orthodoxy that states that the covenant is made externally with any who take the name of Christ and are baptised, yet there is the internal aspect of the Covenant of Grace which is made with the elect, who shall surely not fall away?  Perhaps I didn't read Sproul carefully, but what he was saying seemed consistent with this.

             

            Yes, but at least 2 reformed denominations, and many people as well, have had a hard time grasping it.  This is especially true among the Dutch Reformed, because the 3FU do not go into as much detail regarding the doctrine of the covenant as the Westminster Stds.  

             

            There are many, like Schilder and the Canadian Reformed Church, who have denied that the Covenant of Grace in its spiritual essence is with the elect alone.  They have asserted that all covenants are conditional by their very nature.  But this error undermines the Biblical doctrines of grace, which recognize that salvation is of free grace to God’s people.

            On the other hand, we must beware the error of those who deny the Covenant of Grace in its visible administration is conditional, as if what we believe and how we live has no relation to our salvation.  This tends toward antinomianism.  It is an error that Hoeksema and the Protestant Reformed Churches have tended towards.  They have denied that there is any sense in which the divine covenant can be conditional.  This explains in large measure why the Protestant Reformed Churches have denied the Covenant of Works (with its conditionality), and they have rejected that adultery is just cause for divorce, severing the marriage covenant.  Hoeksema wrote: "
            The marriage bond is absolutely indissoluble. It cannot be broken. No more than the union between Christ and His church can be dissolved, no more can the marriage tie ever be severed. It is a most intimate union of life and for life, which only death can dissolve."

            See http://www.rsglh.org/a_history_of_the%20church's%20doctrine%20of%20marriage%20and%20divorce.htm to read the Protestant Refd perspective :

            "Convinced by this great theologian that the Word of God does indeed teach marriage as a lifelong, unbreakable bond in reflection of the everlasting covenant of grace, the Protestant Reformed Churches have steadfastly confessed and practiced this doctrine of marriage with its implications for divorce and remarriage to the present day. In doing so, they have broken with a significant aspect of the Reformed tradition. This tradition goes back to the 16th century Reformation itself, having its source in Calvin and Luther. It is a doctrine of marriage that views marriage as a breakable bond. Sinful human actions can dissolve what God has joined together. The sins that can break the bond are fornication and desertion."

            - Parnell McCarter

             

             

             

          • Maggie Conley
            Perhaps I didn t read Sproul carefully, but what he was saying seemed consistent with this. For the record, the February 18th article quoted was taken a tad
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 2, 2005

              Perhaps I didn't read Sproul carefully, but what he was saying seemed consistent with this.

               

              For the record, the February 18th article quoted was taken a tad bit out of context – or at least it seems to me it was.

               

              I have been a regular subscriber to Tabletalk for almost three years now and this past year on Hebrews has been wonderful.

               

              The summation of this day’s devotional says this:

               

              “The Reformed tradition recognizes that the Bible teaches both divine sovereignty and human responsibility.  God is in control of all things.  Human beings are responsible to keep the covenant.  In the book of Hebrews, God gives us real warnings so that human responsibility is not invalidated, but rather sustained because the warnings motivate the invisible Church to keep the faith.

               

              “It is a sobering thought that every local church probably has people within it who profess Christ but in reality are from the kingdom.  Though we may not know who those people are, we must remain aware that they exist.  Pray that all the people in your church may not only profess faith, but also possess it by God’s Grace.”

               

               

              Lest I type the ENTIRE article (and I can if necessary) the point of this article is that the Covenant is made by God, and broken by man.  Men break it over and over, and only God remains true, and only God enables men to remain true, by His Grace in the Faith which He Gifts us.

               

              Maggie – who begins a new year of Tabletalk in James yesterday.

               

               

            • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
              Maggie, Very beautiful and sobering about those that are in the visible body but not in the invisible body. Thank you for posting this! -Edgar ... seemed ...
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 2, 2005
                Maggie,

                Very beautiful and sobering about those that are in the visible
                body but not in the invisible body.

                Thank you for posting this!

                -Edgar

                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Maggie Conley"
                <mmpconley@s...> wrote:
                > "Perhaps I didn't read Sproul carefully, but what he was saying
                seemed
                > consistent with this."
                >
                > For the record, the February 18th article quoted was taken a tad
                bit out
                > of context - or at least it seems to me it was.
                >
                > I have been a regular subscriber to Tabletalk for almost three
                years now
                > and this past year on Hebrews has been wonderful.
                >
                > The summation of this day's devotional says this:
                >
                > "The Reformed tradition recognizes that the Bible teaches both
                divine
                > sovereignty and human responsibility. God is in control of all
                things.
                > Human beings are responsible to keep the covenant. In the book of
                > Hebrews, God gives us real warnings so that human responsibility is
                not
                > invalidated, but rather sustained because the warnings motivate the
                > invisible Church to keep the faith.
                >
                > "It is a sobering thought that every local church probably has
                people
                > within it who profess Christ but in reality are from the kingdom.
                > Though we may not know who those people are, we must remain aware
                that
                > they exist. Pray that all the people in your church may not only
                > profess faith, but also possess it by God's Grace."
                >
                >
                > Lest I type the ENTIRE article (and I can if necessary) the point of
                > this article is that the Covenant is made by God, and broken by man.
                > Men break it over and over, and only God remains true, and only God
                > enables men to remain true, by His Grace in the Faith which He
                Gifts us.
                >
                > Maggie - who begins a new year of Tabletalk in James yesterday.
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