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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Site Update

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  • Theodore Letis
    Keith, You handled this perfectly. This is the rot that is coming out of PCA/OPC semianries, and from the Sproul/Packer pastor-graduates from these schools of
    Message 1 of 14 , Dec 6, 2004
      Keith,
       
      You handled this perfectly. This is the rot that is coming out of PCA/OPC semianries, and from the Sproul/Packer pastor-graduates from these schools of the addle-minded. You nailed them justifiably by pointing out they are no more Puritan (or Reformed, for that matter) than are modern Methodists. But they are too ignorant to be able to blush when this is pointed out to them. The internet has done us much good, but that bad it has accomplished in turning knats in to draggons under the magnification of "attention-getting" from being someone in cyberspace, almost makes me wish for an earlier time, pre-internet "academics."
       
      Ted

      keith dotzler <kdotz@...> wrote:
      Bro Ted,
       
      You've said it all in that short post!  Sadly, it is a rare occasion when one comes across a professed "protestant," who isn't a futurist or a preterist.  In fact, outside of this list, I can count on one hand the number of truly Reformed Protestants that I've met AT PROTESTANT AND PURITAN DISCUSSION BOARDS....and I've been discussing this topic all over the web for around 3 years now!
       
      In case you weren't a member of this list when I made reference to Matt McMahon, founder of a website and discussion board called A Puritan's Mind, have a gander at the following.  All of the citations come from members of his so-called "puritan" discussion board.  In fact, they are all statements made by McMahon and his discussion board administrators...one and all professing to be of a puritan's mind...whatever that means in this day and age.  What follows was originally formatted to be included as an appendix to my recent site update.
       
      Hold on to your hat....
       
       
           

      I offer the following, from another who claims to be reformed and a Calvinist, yet opposes Calvin and the rest of the Reformers, as well as the very ones after whom he has named himself ("puritan sailor"), in denying the Pope to be the antichrist!

      �Here again, you are assuming the Antichrist is the Pope. You have not yet proven that. Just because the Reformers thought so doesn't make it right. Please give me your exegetical grounds for your perspective....Just because martyrs may identify someone as the antichrist doesn't mean they are correct. I must rely in Scripture alone. So if you can't give me your exegesis then at least give me theirs.�  (emphasis added)

      Not only has this puritan pretender trampled upon the blood of every last Christian martyr who named the Pope as the antichrist, but the brother to whom that whole paragraph was directed has a website PACKED with the testimony of the saints through the ages, all of which was at this puritan pretender's fingertips, had he been so inclined to acquaint himself with the subject matter at hand, before publicly making a fool of himself.  This so-called "puritan" pretends to be in search of a proper "exegesis" of Scripture regarding antichrist's identity, yet seems to be wholly oblivious to the fact that numerous works abounded during the Reformation era, and afterward, all of which prove the Pope of Rome to be that antichrist and man of sin foretold in Scripture, his false Church being Mystery Babylon.  He was just a mouse-click away from that which he sought, yet still had the unmitigated gall to ask for exegesis that proved the Pope of Rome to be the Antichrist! 

      How is one who throws around words like "exegesis" to be taken seriously, when he obviously hasn't educated himself in the works of those whom he claims as spiritual brethren, such as the Reformers and the Puritans?  If he rejects THEIR exegesis of Revelation chapters 13 and 17, or that of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, what on earth, then, would suddenly cause him to accept the exegesis of the brother with whom he was having this discussion?  Who can call themselves a Puritan or a Reformed Protestant, and REJECT ALL of what the Reformers and Puritans taught concerning the identities of THE Antichrist, THE man of sin, and Mystery Babylon? 

      This so-called "puritan sailor" begs for exegesis...ANY exegesis...proving the Pope of Rome to be THE antichrist --, yet what do you suppose he did with it, when it was offered?  The exegesis of one William Perkins (a true Puritan) was offered to this puritan pretender, in the form of an excerpt from An Excellent Sermon Plainly Proving That Rome is Babylon, and That Babylon is Fallen (1595),as was Francis Turretin's 7th Disputation, Whether It Can Be Proven the Pope of Rome is the Antichrist (circa 1661).  How did the "puritan sailor" respond to the former?

      "Using Perkin's [sic] quote above, I find some flaws in exegesis."

      There you have it.  Not only would this arrogant puritan pretender reject the exegesis of anyone and everyone who would claim the Pope to be the Antichrist, but he obviously isn't even familiar enough with the real Puritan, with whom he finds these so-called flaws in exegesis, to know that his last name is NOT Perkin!   Strangely, he had nothing to say about Turretin's exegesis...probably because he didn't bother reading it.

      Here are some more ignorant proclamations from the puritan pretender:

      The book of Revelation would have very little application to first century Christians if the Pope was the Antichrist simple [sic] because there was no Pope.

      There is no disagreement that the Pope is antichristian. And, there's probably no disagreement that the Pope most likely embodied the greatest spirit of antichrist during the Reformation. But that is not the case anymore. The spirit of antichrist is much greater in scope than Roman Catholicism.�  (emphasis added)
       

      And have a look at this gem, from a "reformed" pastor:

      �The Bible nowhere outright states that the Pope of Rome is the antichrist. The Bible is clear that there have been and will continue to be many antichrists, and while some will say that the Pope is an antichrist, declaring such is not a litmus test for orthodoxy.�
       

      Lastly, observe the following, which was the response I received from the very well-educated founder of a "Puritan" website. I asked him, �Who/what is the man of sin of 2 Thes 2?�  Knowing his familiarity with Reformed doctrine, as well as how vast his personal library must be, knowing he owns the Reformation Bookshelf and Puritan Bookshelf CD sets from Still Waters Revival Books...62 CDs in all, I found his response to my simple question to be arrogant, high-minded, mind-blowing, and simply a slap in the face to those Reformers and Puritans who proclaimed truths that he, with this ridiculous answer, denies.  Who does this "puritan" pseudo-scholar make the man of sin to be?  Observe: 

      �Antichristian government or pressures in the world. 

      And, to make matters worse, he later told me that,

      �The Antichrist himself was not Pope Innocent the III, or Pope John Paul 1st.  We will have to 'see' who may be the 'one' 'giant' Antichrist, that man of sin, when he arises to the scene. (emphasis added)

      This so-called "puritan" not only looks for the man of sin (whom he had just said was "antichristian government") to be an individual man (one "giant" Antichrist), but he also denies that the man of sin had already been on the scene more than 700 years ago, and looks for him to first come on the scene at some FUTURE DATE (as do the papists)!  Thus, he outright denies what millions of ancient Christians, Reformers, Puritans, and post-reformers before him have ALL proclaimed (many to their deaths), viz., that the man of sin, the antichrist, the beast, was not to come at some point in the future, but was the one that was killing Christians, and was the one reigning IN THEIR MIDST, with his seat and harlot church both residing in Rome! 

      The above men will quickly claim that they believe the papacy is antichrist, as did the founder, mentioned above, in an e-mail correspondence with me (see below), but notice how they word such an empty creedal statement.  They make sure to leave out the article THE, and refer to the papacy as just "antichrist," "antichristian," or "AN antichrist."  They just can't bring their intellects down from out of the clouds to embrace that which was revelaed to millions of martyred brethren over the last millennium:  the papacy is THE antichrist, THE man of sin, and THE beast from the sea! 

      Here are some questions I put to the founder, via e-mail.  His responses are in blue:

      1)  Who/what is the beast that rose out of the sea, in Rev 13?  Devil - the hand of the devil
      2)  Who/what is the man of sin of 2 Thes 2?  Antichristian government or pressures in the world
      3)  Who/what is the little horn of Daniel 9?  Antichrist government or pressures in the world
      4)  Who/what is Mystery, Babylon the Great of Rev 17?   Possibly the Roman Catholic Church (see WCF)
      5)  Who/what is the beast that rose out of the earth, in Rev 13?   Devil - the wisdom of the devil
      6)  Who/what is the "let" of 2 Thes 2?  "no one", then the Antichristian influences
      7)  Who/what are the Locusts of Rev 9?  The power and influences of hell over wicked men
      8)  Who/what are the two witnesses of Rev 11?   The church militant - the preaching of the word and sacraments
      9)  What is the mark, name, and number of the beast, in Rev 13?  Unregenerate influences against the church
       
       
      Notice his response to question #4.  He implies the WCF could be right about Mystery Babylon's identity, but he himself won't be dogmatic about it!  What's more, when a good friend of mine said the following to one of the administrators in a PRIVATE e-mail exchange, he was promptly banned from the discussion board!
       
      "The infallible Word of God states explicitly that if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part of the book of life....
       
      The official sanctioned website of the OPC has willfully and maliciously - not from ignorance - deleted the identity of the arch-enemy of Christ and His Church, thus re-inventing the true interpretation of the Revelation which Christ infallibly wills His Elect know and understand. Of course, you must know the PCA has done likewise."
       
      Perkins and Turretin, to whom these men are particularly partial, must be rolling in their graves!
       
      One will search high and low on McMahon's website for any mention of the papal antichrist and his church, Mystery Babylon.  I find this a STARTLING revelation, considering the fact that during the Reformation era, naming antichrist and his harlot church proceeded directly out of, and was a natural result of, preaching salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone...the two proclamations, combined, being the very justification for separating from the Church of Rome!  How that founder can claim to have "a puritan's mind," yet keep the elect IN THE DARK as to THE antichrist's true identity is truly a mystery.  To make matters worse, he allows preterists to openly posit their heresy at his so-called "puritan" board.  As long as "Christ crucified" is the uniting mantra, all are welcome to insert their particular heresies without fear of chastisement or excommunication...as long as you don't pass judgment on a "reformed" Church that has expunged the identity of the man of sin from the WCF! 
       
      What that "puritan" founder IS, in fact, is a closet-futurist.  He said the following to me, in the course of our e-mail "debate:"
      "The office of the Antichrist is the papal succession.  The Antichrist himself was not Pope Innocent the III, or Pope John Paul 1st.  We will have to "see" who may be the "one" "giant" Antichrist, that man of sin, when he arises to the scene.  We can say that the line is Antichrist (and I do)." 
       
      Notice his little deceptive play on words, as he tries to make me believe he is in agreement with the Reformers and Puritans through the ages, regarding the identity of the antichrist: 
       
      "We can say that the line is Antichrist (and I do)." 
       
      The line of popes are ANTICHRIST, and the OFFICE of the Antichrist IS the papal succession, but it isn't THE ANTICHRIST.  In other words, McMahon believes the office of popes to be antichristian, and that THE Antichrist will come from that succession...but he isn't here today, nor has he come in the past. 
       
      "We will have to "see" who may be the "one" "giant" Antichrist, that man of sin, when he arises to the scene."
       
      All one has to do is look at this "puritan's" response to my 9 questions above, and his absolute opposition to the very ones he claims as spiritual ancestors is immediately made known!  Truly the wheat is being sifted from the tares, as, day after day, month after month, more and more who claim to be "reformed protestants" are showing themselves to be in bed with ROME, as they find all sorts of creative ways to relegate the antichrist's reign of terror to the past or the future, but never to the present.  
       
      "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
       
      And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
       
      They received not the love of the truth because they were sent strong delusion by God Himself.  These are obviosuly reprobates who were fitted for destruction from the foundation of the world....for the Lord never UN-elects one of His elect to damn them.  These false Christians -- tares among the wheat -- because they never received a love of the truth (a mark of being elect), believed a LIE.
       
      The "truth" that was not believed cannot refer to "rejecting the Gospel," as some believe.  The topic of the chapter is not the Gospel, but the revealing of the man of sin.  Therefore, the LIE that is believed is directly related to the revealing of the man of sin.
       
      Lord come quickly!
       
      Take care,
      Keith
       
       
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: 12/3/2004 5:06:48 PM
      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Site Update

      Keith,
       
      what I find odd is that "conservative" (not liberal) Calvinists can't even accept it from Calvin himself in the Institutes--THE primary source of the Reformed Reformation. but yet they can accept Preterism from Sproul and others--a blatant heresy (partial or otherwise). Let's see...Calvin wrong; Sproul right!? 
       
      Amongst confessional Lutherans I have never met one who did not toally agree with Luther on the Antichrist. Not one! Why is that? I think it is because the Reformed claim to be "Reformed...but always Reforming," so in some respects these Reformed are more like Rome: the faith keeps getting revised like Bill Gate's Microsoft Word, so that only the "latest" version is the correct version. Thanks God you have been led to keep these works available.
       
      Ted

      keith dotzler <kdotz@...> wrote:
      I appreciate that bro Ted.  There are many more such works in my arsenal, which I wish to share with the brethren over the course of the coming years.  I only wish those fancy Caligraphic old English fonts wouldn't have been used...because then I could scan them, rather than having to transcribe them by hand!    ;-)
       
      Though it's time consuming to place such excerpts on the web, it's a very small price to pay....
       
      As a professing Christian (during my Arminian days), I was wholly ignorant of the existence of such works for over 11 years! 
       
      Even after my eyes were opened to the Doctrines of Grace a couple years back, I had so-called "reformed Calvinists" telling me that eschatology was all but passed over by the Reformers and post reformers, and that belief in a pre-trib rapture and premillennialism were Biblically sound, and wholly compatible with CALVINISM and REFORMED PROTESTANISM!!!  After all, you know the standard line used by those who think they're more intelligent and more in tune with the Spirit than the Reformers were: "they were only men."
       
      I have discovered, first-hand, that all who claim the name of "reformed Protestant," who say that the subject of Antichrist rarely came up before, during, or after the Reformation, are ignorantly speaking words without knowledge (to their shame).
       
      Having done the leg work necessary to acquire...
      • the MANY treatises on Antichrist that circulated during the 16th and 17th centuries (Turretin, Beard, Bradshaw, Daneau, Deios, Garrett, Gwalther, Jones, Rainolds, Osiander, Sohn, Hall, Zwingli, Becon, Barnes, Downame, Whitaker, Tyndale, Luther, etc),
      • as well as the NUMEROUS commentaries on the Revelation from the same era (Holland, Fulke, Pareus, Newton, Brightman, Mede, Junius, More, Durham, Dent, Cotton, Perkins, Cartwright, Bale),
      • not to mention the 16th & 17th century commentaries on 2 Thessalonians (Tymme, Fergusson, Squire, Jewel, Manton, Bullinger, Fulke, and Cartwright), 
      ....I find it simply INCREDIBLE that so many, many "reformed" brethren could even muster up the THOUGHT that antichrist was a non-issue...let alone making those ignorant thoughts PUBLIC!  How can such a vast library be missed?
       
      Sadly, multitudes who name the name of Christ have absolutely no idea that the testimony of the saints of the last 7+ centuries has been preserved for us in various forms....all of which points the true Church of God to the identity of the man of sin and his harlot Church -- Mystery Babylon.  These treasures are crassly cast aside and ignored by the intellectuals among us -- relegated to the "works of men" bin. 
       
      Today's professing apostate Christian thinks it more "godly" to shout "give me the Bible and nothing else," than to examine the writings of our departed brethren, to see what they believed and WHY.   Some of these pretenders then get positions in their local churches TEACHING others the false "truths" they received of the Spirit, while studying their Bible and nothing else.   Then comes the day when one of his students asks him about the identity of the antichrist.  The teacher, proud of the fact that he has his Bible and nothing else, proudly proclaims,
       
      "Why, we obviously can't know who he is, until he's revealed after the rapture!"     
       
      But, says the student, the historic Church over the course of the last 7 centuries, with one voice, has proclaimed that the Pope of Rome is the Antichrist. 
       
      "Well," says the teacher, "they were just men.  You shouldn't put much stock in their commentaries and other writings.  The Bible alone will give you the answers, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit." 
       
      Well, says the student, first of all, aren't YOU a man? 
       
      Secondly, if the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, and if he has already guided the historic Church of the last 7 centuries into the truth about the Antichrist's identity, and if we now ignore that revelation and await our own, wouldn't we be rejecting the truth? 
       
      Thirdly, of what use are teachers, preachers, evangelists, pastors, etc, if we aren't to LISTEN TO THEM? 
       
       
       
      Take care,
      Keith 
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: 12/1/2004 10:09:29 PM
      Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Site Update

      What I attempted to say below was that I very much enjoyed the website noted by Keith below and am happy to see those important documents yet out there for all to read...for now.
       
      Ted

      urces are out thre and still readable...for now...
       
      Ted

      keith dotzler <kdotz@...> wrote:

      Friends,
       
      Our site has been updated.  
       
       
       
       
       
      In Christ,
      Keith Dotzler
       



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    • Robbie Stark
      Packer I understand as he sold his soul BACK to Rome, (So to speak), but, what is your issue/problem with Sproul? Calling him NOT Reformed? I am all ears
      Message 2 of 14 , Dec 6, 2004
        Packer I understand as he sold his soul BACK to Rome, (So to speak), but, what is your issue/problem with Sproul?  Calling him NOT Reformed?  I am all ears
         
        Robbie  ( Who firmly believes calling Rome the most evil institution on earth, to be an understatement!)
         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 10:23 AM
        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Site Update

        Keith,
         
        You handled this perfectly. This is the rot that is coming out of PCA/OPC semianries, and from the Sproul/Packer pastor-graduates from these schools of the addle-minded. You nailed them justifiably by pointing out they are no more Puritan (or Reformed, for that matter) than are modern Methodists. But they are too ignorant to be able to blush when this is pointed out to them. The internet has done us much good, but that bad it has accomplished in turning knats in to draggons under the magnification of "attention-getting" from being someone in cyberspace, almost makes me wish for an earlier time, pre-internet "academics."
         
        Ted

        keith dotzler <kdotz@...> wrote:
        Bro Ted,
         
        You've said it all in that short post!  Sadly, it is a rare occasion when one comes across a professed "protestant," who isn't a futurist or a preterist.  In fact, outside of this list, I can count on one hand the number of truly Reformed Protestants that I've met AT PROTESTANT AND PURITAN DISCUSSION BOARDS....and I've been discussing this topic all over the web for around 3 years now!
         
        In case you weren't a member of this list when I made reference to Matt McMahon, founder of a website and discussion board called A Puritan's Mind, have a gander at the following.  All of the citations come from members of his so-called "puritan" discussion board.  In fact, they are all statements made by McMahon and his discussion board administrators...one and all professing to be of a puritan's mind...whatever that means in this day and age.  What follows was originally formatted to be included as an appendix to my recent site update.
         
        Hold on to your hat....
         
         
             

        I offer the following, from another who claims to be reformed and a Calvinist, yet opposes Calvin and the rest of the Reformers, as well as the very ones after whom he has named himself ("puritan sailor"), in denying the Pope to be the antichrist! —

        “Here again, you are assuming the Antichrist is the Pope. You have not yet proven that. Just because the Reformers thought so doesn't make it right. Please give me your exegetical grounds for your perspective....Just because martyrs may identify someone as the antichrist doesn't mean they are correct. I must rely in Scripture alone. So if you can't give me your exegesis then at least give me theirs.”  (emphasis added)

        Not only has this puritan pretender trampled upon the blood of every last Christian martyr who named the Pope as the antichrist, but the brother to whom that whole paragraph was directed has a website PACKED with the testimony of the saints through the ages, all of which was at this puritan pretender's fingertips, had he been so inclined to acquaint himself with the subject matter at hand, before publicly making a fool of himself.  This so-called "puritan" pretends to be in search of a proper "exegesis" of Scripture regarding antichrist's identity, yet seems to be wholly oblivious to the fact that numerous works abounded during the Reformation era, and afterward, all of which prove the Pope of Rome to be that antichrist and man of sin foretold in Scripture, his false Church being Mystery Babylon.  He was just a mouse-click away from that which he sought, yet still had the unmitigated gall to ask for exegesis that proved the Pope of Rome to be the Antichrist! 

        How is one who throws around words like "exegesis" to be taken seriously, when he obviously hasn't educated himself in the works of those whom he claims as spiritual brethren, such as the Reformers and the Puritans?  If he rejects THEIR exegesis of Revelation chapters 13 and 17, or that of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, what on earth, then, would suddenly cause him to accept the exegesis of the brother with whom he was having this discussion?  Who can call themselves a Puritan or a Reformed Protestant, and REJECT ALL of what the Reformers and Puritans taught concerning the identities of THE Antichrist, THE man of sin, and Mystery Babylon? 

        This so-called "puritan sailor" begs for exegesis...ANY exegesis...proving the Pope of Rome to be THE antichrist --, yet what do you suppose he did with it, when it was offered?  The exegesis of one William Perkins (a true Puritan) was offered to this puritan pretender, in the form of an excerpt from An Excellent Sermon Plainly Proving That Rome is Babylon, and That Babylon is Fallen (1595),as was Francis Turretin's 7th Disputation, Whether It Can Be Proven the Pope of Rome is the Antichrist (circa 1661).  How did the "puritan sailor" respond to the former?

        "Using Perkin's [sic] quote above, I find some flaws in exegesis."

        There you have it.  Not only would this arrogant puritan pretender reject the exegesis of anyone and everyone who would claim the Pope to be the Antichrist, but he obviously isn't even familiar enough with the real Puritan, with whom he finds these so-called flaws in exegesis, to know that his last name is NOT Perkin!   Strangely, he had nothing to say about Turretin's exegesis...probably because he didn't bother reading it.

        Here are some more ignorant proclamations from the puritan pretender:

        “The book of Revelation would have very little application to first century Christians if the Pope was the Antichrist simple [sic] because there was no Pope.”

        “There is no disagreement that the Pope is antichristian. And, there's probably no disagreement that the Pope most likely embodied the greatest spirit of antichrist during the Reformation. But that is not the case anymore. The spirit of antichrist is much greater in scope than Roman Catholicism.”  (emphasis added)
         

        And have a look at this gem, from a "reformed" pastor:

        “The Bible nowhere outright states that the Pope of Rome is the antichrist. The Bible is clear that there have been and will continue to be many antichrists, and while some will say that the Pope is an antichrist, declaring such is not a litmus test for orthodoxy.”
         

        Lastly, observe the following, which was the response I received from the very well-educated founder of a "Puritan" website. I asked him, “Who/what is the man of sin of 2 Thes 2?”  Knowing his familiarity with Reformed doctrine, as well as how vast his personal library must be, knowing he owns the Reformation Bookshelf and Puritan Bookshelf CD sets from Still Waters Revival Books...62 CDs in all, I found his response to my simple question to be arrogant, high-minded, mind-blowing, and simply a slap in the face to those Reformers and Puritans who proclaimed truths that he, with this ridiculous answer, denies.  Who does this "puritan" pseudo-scholar make the man of sin to be?  Observe: 

        “Antichristian government or pressures in the world.” 

        And, to make matters worse, he later told me that,

        “The Antichrist himself was not Pope Innocent the III, or Pope John Paul 1st.  We will have to 'see' who may be the 'one' 'giant' Antichrist, that man of sin, when he arises to the scene.” (emphasis added)

        This so-called "puritan" not only looks for the man of sin (whom he had just said was "antichristian government") to be an individual man (one "giant" Antichrist), but he also denies that the man of sin had already been on the scene more than 700 years ago, and looks for him to first come on the scene at some FUTURE DATE (as do the papists)!  Thus, he outright denies what millions of ancient Christians, Reformers, Puritans, and post-reformers before him have ALL proclaimed (many to their deaths), viz., that the man of sin, the antichrist, the beast, was not to come at some point in the future, but was the one that was killing Christians, and was the one reigning IN THEIR MIDST, with his seat and harlot church both residing in Rome! 

        The above men will quickly claim that they believe the papacy is antichrist, as did the founder, mentioned above, in an e-mail correspondence with me (see below), but notice how they word such an empty creedal statement.  They make sure to leave out the article THE, and refer to the papacy as just "antichrist," "antichristian," or "AN antichrist."  They just can't bring their intellects down from out of the clouds to embrace that which was revelaed to millions of martyred brethren over the last millennium:  the papacy is THE antichrist, THE man of sin, and THE beast from the sea! 

        Here are some questions I put to the founder, via e-mail.  His responses are in blue:

        1)  Who/what is the beast that rose out of the sea, in Rev 13?  Devil - the hand of the devil
        2)  Who/what is the man of sin of 2 Thes 2?  Antichristian government or pressures in the world
        3)  Who/what is the little horn of Daniel 9?  Antichrist government or pressures in the world
        4)  Who/what is Mystery, Babylon the Great of Rev 17?   Possibly the Roman Catholic Church (see WCF)
        5)  Who/what is the beast that rose out of the earth, in Rev 13?   Devil - the wisdom of the devil
        6)  Who/what is the "let" of 2 Thes 2?  "no one", then the Antichristian influences
        7)  Who/what are the Locusts of Rev 9?  The power and influences of hell over wicked men
        8)  Who/what are the two witnesses of Rev 11?   The church militant - the preaching of the word and sacraments
        9)  What is the mark, name, and number of the beast, in Rev 13?  Unregenerate influences against the church
         
         
        Notice his response to question #4.  He implies the WCF could be right about Mystery Babylon's identity, but he himself won't be dogmatic about it!  What's more, when a good friend of mine said the following to one of the administrators in a PRIVATE e-mail exchange, he was promptly banned from the discussion board!
         
        "The infallible Word of God states explicitly that if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part of the book of life....
         
        The official sanctioned website of the OPC has willfully and maliciously - not from ignorance - deleted the identity of the arch-enemy of Christ and His Church, thus re-inventing the true interpretation of the Revelation which Christ infallibly wills His Elect know and understand. Of course, you must know the PCA has done likewise."
         
        Perkins and Turretin, to whom these men are particularly partial, must be rolling in their graves!
         
        One will search high and low on McMahon's website for any mention of the papal antichrist and his church, Mystery Babylon.  I find this a STARTLING revelation, considering the fact that during the Reformation era, naming antichrist and his harlot church proceeded directly out of, and was a natural result of, preaching salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone...the two proclamations, combined, being the very justification for separating from the Church of Rome!  How that founder can claim to have "a puritan's mind," yet keep the elect IN THE DARK as to THE antichrist's true identity is truly a mystery.  To make matters worse, he allows preterists to openly posit their heresy at his so-called "puritan" board.  As long as "Christ crucified" is the uniting mantra, all are welcome to insert their particular heresies without fear of chastisement or excommunication...as long as you don't pass judgment on a "reformed" Church that has expunged the identity of the man of sin from the WCF! 
         
        What that "puritan" founder IS, in fact, is a closet-futurist.  He said the following to me, in the course of our e-mail "debate:"
        "The office of the Antichrist is the papal succession.  The Antichrist himself was not Pope Innocent the III, or Pope John Paul 1st.  We will have to "see" who may be the "one" "giant" Antichrist, that man of sin, when he arises to the scene.  We can say that the line is Antichrist (and I do)." 
         
        Notice his little deceptive play on words, as he tries to make me believe he is in agreement with the Reformers and Puritans through the ages, regarding the identity of the antichrist: 
         
        "We can say that the line is Antichrist (and I do)." 
         
        The line of popes are ANTICHRIST, and the OFFICE of the Antichrist IS the papal succession, but it isn't THE ANTICHRIST.  In other words, McMahon believes the office of popes to be antichristian, and that THE Antichrist will come from that succession...but he isn't here today, nor has he come in the past. 
         
        "We will have to "see" who may be the "one" "giant" Antichrist, that man of sin, when he arises to the scene."
         
        All one has to do is look at this "puritan's" response to my 9 questions above, and his absolute opposition to the very ones he claims as spiritual ancestors is immediately made known!  Truly the wheat is being sifted from the tares, as, day after day, month after month, more and more who claim to be "reformed protestants" are showing themselves to be in bed with ROME, as they find all sorts of creative ways to relegate the antichrist's reign of terror to the past or the future, but never to the present.  
         
        "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
         
        And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
         
        They received not the love of the truth because they were sent strong delusion by God Himself.  These are obviosuly reprobates who were fitted for destruction from the foundation of the world....for the Lord never UN-elects one of His elect to damn them.  These false Christians -- tares among the wheat -- because they never received a love of the truth (a mark of being elect), believed a LIE.
         
        The "truth" that was not believed cannot refer to "rejecting the Gospel," as some believe.  The topic of the chapter is not the Gospel, but the revealing of the man of sin.  Therefore, the LIE that is believed is directly related to the revealing of the man of sin.
         
        Lord come quickly!
         
        Take care,
        Keith
         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: 12/3/2004 5:06:48 PM
        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Site Update

        Keith,
         
        what I find odd is that "conservative" (not liberal) Calvinists can't even accept it from Calvin himself in the Institutes--THE primary source of the Reformed Reformation. but yet they can accept Preterism from Sproul and others--a blatant heresy (partial or otherwise). Let's see...Calvin wrong; Sproul right!? 
         
        Amongst confessional Lutherans I have never met one who did not toally agree with Luther on the Antichrist. Not one! Why is that? I think it is because the Reformed claim to be "Reformed...but always Reforming," so in some respects these Reformed are more like Rome: the faith keeps getting revised like Bill Gate's Microsoft Word, so that only the "latest" version is the correct version. Thanks God you have been led to keep these works available.
         
        Ted

        keith dotzler <kdotz@...> wrote:
        I appreciate that bro Ted.  There are many more such works in my arsenal, which I wish to share with the brethren over the course of the coming years.  I only wish those fancy Caligraphic old English fonts wouldn't have been used...because then I could scan them, rather than having to transcribe them by hand!    ;-)
         
        Though it's time consuming to place such excerpts on the web, it's a very small price to pay....
         
        As a professing Christian (during my Arminian days), I was wholly ignorant of the existence of such works for over 11 years! 
         
        Even after my eyes were opened to the Doctrines of Grace a couple years back, I had so-called "reformed Calvinists" telling me that eschatology was all but passed over by the Reformers and post reformers, and that belief in a pre-trib rapture and premillennialism were Biblically sound, and wholly compatible with CALVINISM and REFORMED PROTESTANISM!!!  After all, you know the standard line used by those who think they're more intelligent and more in tune with the Spirit than the Reformers were: "they were only men."
         
        I have discovered, first-hand, that all who claim the name of "reformed Protestant," who say that the subject of Antichrist rarely came up before, during, or after the Reformation, are ignorantly speaking words without knowledge (to their shame).
         
        Having done the leg work necessary to acquire...
        • the MANY treatises on Antichrist that circulated during the 16th and 17th centuries (Turretin, Beard, Bradshaw, Daneau, Deios, Garrett, Gwalther, Jones, Rainolds, Osiander, Sohn, Hall, Zwingli, Becon, Barnes, Downame, Whitaker, Tyndale, Luther, etc),
        • as well as the NUMEROUS commentaries on the Revelation from the same era (Holland, Fulke, Pareus, Newton, Brightman, Mede, Junius, More, Durham, Dent, Cotton, Perkins, Cartwright, Bale),
        • not to mention the 16th & 17th century commentaries on 2 Thessalonians (Tymme, Fergusson, Squire, Jewel, Manton, Bullinger, Fulke, and Cartwright), 
        ....I find it simply INCREDIBLE that so many, many "reformed" brethren could even muster up the THOUGHT that antichrist was a non-issue...let alone making those ignorant thoughts PUBLIC!  How can such a vast library be missed?
         
        Sadly, multitudes who name the name of Christ have absolutely no idea that the testimony of the saints of the last 7+ centuries has been preserved for us in various forms....all of which points the true Church of God to the identity of the man of sin and his harlot Church -- Mystery Babylon.  These treasures are crassly cast aside and ignored by the intellectuals among us -- relegated to the "works of men" bin. 
         
        Today's professing apostate Christian thinks it more "godly" to shout "give me the Bible and nothing else," than to examine the writings of our departed brethren, to see what they believed and WHY.   Some of these pretenders then get positions in their local churches TEACHING others the false "truths" they received of the Spirit, while studying their Bible and nothing else.   Then comes the day when one of his students asks him about the identity of the antichrist.  The teacher, proud of the fact that he has his Bible and nothing else, proudly proclaims,
         
        "Why, we obviously can't know who he is, until he's revealed after the rapture!"     
         
        But, says the student, the historic Church over the course of the last 7 centuries, with one voice, has proclaimed that the Pope of Rome is the Antichrist. 
         
        "Well," says the teacher, "they were just men.  You shouldn't put much stock in their commentaries and other writings.  The Bible alone will give you the answers, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit." 
         
        Well, says the student, first of all, aren't YOU a man? 
         
        Secondly, if the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, and if he has already guided the historic Church of the last 7 centuries into the truth about the Antichrist's identity, and if we now ignore that revelation and await our own, wouldn't we be rejecting the truth? 
         
        Thirdly, of what use are teachers, preachers, evangelists, pastors, etc, if we aren't to LISTEN TO THEM? 
         
         
         
        Take care,
        Keith 
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: 12/1/2004 10:09:29 PM
        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Site Update

        What I attempted to say below was that I very much enjoyed the website noted by Keith below and am happy to see those important documents yet out there for all to read...for now.
         
        Ted

        urces are out thre and still readable...for now...
         
        Ted

        keith dotzler <kdotz@...> wrote:

        Friends,
         
        Our site has been updated.  
         
         
         
         
         
        In Christ,
        Keith Dotzler
         



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      • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
        For starters, like most Reformed churches of today, he stops at the 5-points of Calvinism. Most Presbyterian & Reformed churches & theologians of today
        Message 3 of 14 , Dec 6, 2004
          For starters, like most "Reformed" churches of today, he stops at
          the 5-points of Calvinism. Most "Presbyterian" & "Reformed"
          churches & theologians of today deny the Regulative Principle of
          Worship & hence partake of the Romish fundamental sin of will-worship
          (man, not God, determines what is acceptable to offer up to God in
          public worship, i.e. singing man-made hymns [Watts, Welsey, et al],
          breaking the Lord's Day, observing Xmas, Good Friday, & Easter),
          denying true Biblical Presbyterianism, denying the whole doctrine of
          Covenanting, denying that the Papacy is the Anti-Christ, &
          tolerating denominationalism and making excuses for the serious
          division that exists in Christ's body.

          I am sure others can add to this...

          Reformed/Presbyterian/Calvinsim is the most purest & faithful
          expression of Christianity...the doctrine...not necessarily always
          the adherents...and the Covenanted Reformation was the crowning
          jewel until Oliver Cromwell and the Stuarts came in to crush the
          Truth and the compromised Presbyterians propogated it (the
          suppresion)...even until this day...

          For the Covenanted Reformation
          that brings true biblical unity,

          Edgar Ibarra
          Albany NY
          RPNA

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Robbie Stark
          <igrus@o...> wrote:
          > Packer I understand as he sold his soul BACK to Rome, (So to
          speak), but, what is your issue/problem with Sproul? Calling him
          NOT Reformed? I am all ears
          >
          > Robbie ( Who firmly believes calling Rome the most evil
          institution on earth, to be an understatement!)
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Theodore Letis
          > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2004 10:23 AM
          > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Site Update
          >
          >
          > Keith,
          >
          > You handled this perfectly. This is the rot that is coming out
          of PCA/OPC semianries, and from the Sproul/Packer pastor-graduates
          from these schools of the addle-minded. You nailed them justifiably
          by pointing out they are no more Puritan (or Reformed, for that
          matter) than are modern Methodists. But they are too ignorant to be
          able to blush when this is pointed out to them. The internet has
          done us much good, but that bad it has accomplished in turning knats
          in to draggons under the magnification of "attention-getting" from
          being someone in cyberspace, almost makes me wish for an earlier
          time, pre-internet "academics."
          >
          > Ted
          >
          > keith dotzler <kdotz@e...> wrote:
          > Bro Ted,
          >
          > You've said it all in that short post! Sadly, it is a rare
          occasion when one comes across a professed "protestant," who isn't a
          futurist or a preterist. In fact, outside of this list, I can count
          on one hand the number of truly Reformed Protestants that I've met
          AT PROTESTANT AND PURITAN DISCUSSION BOARDS....and I've been
          discussing this topic all over the web for around 3 years now!
          >
          > In case you weren't a member of this list when I made
          reference to Matt McMahon, founder of a website and discussion board
          called A Puritan's Mind, have a gander at the following. All of the
          citations come from members of his so-called "puritan" discussion
          board. In fact, they are all statements made by McMahon and his
          discussion board administrators...one and all professing to be of a
          puritan's mind...whatever that means in this day and age. What
          follows was originally formatted to be included as an appendix to my
          recent site update.
          >
          > Hold on to your hat....
          >
          >
          >
          > I offer the following, from another who claims to be reformed
          and a Calvinist, yet opposes Calvin and the rest of the Reformers,
          as well as the very ones after whom he has named himself ("puritan
          sailor"), in denying the Pope to be the antichrist! -
          >
          > "Here again, you are assuming the Antichrist is the Pope.
          You have not yet proven that. Just because the Reformers thought so
          doesn't make it right. Please give me your exegetical grounds for
          your perspective....Just because martyrs may identify someone as the
          antichrist doesn't mean they are correct. I must rely in Scripture
          alone. So if you can't give me your exegesis then at least give me
          theirs." (emphasis added)
          >
          > Not only has this puritan pretender trampled upon the blood of
          every last Christian martyr who named the Pope as the antichrist,
          but the brother to whom that whole paragraph was directed has a
          website PACKED with the testimony of the saints through the ages,
          all of which was at this puritan pretender's fingertips, had he been
          so inclined to acquaint himself with the subject matter at hand,
          before publicly making a fool of himself. This so-called "puritan"
          pretends to be in search of a proper "exegesis" of Scripture
          regarding antichrist's identity, yet seems to be wholly oblivious to
          the fact that numerous works abounded during the Reformation era,
          and afterward, all of which prove the Pope of Rome to be that
          antichrist and man of sin foretold in Scripture, his false Church
          being Mystery Babylon. He was just a mouse-click away from that
          which he sought, yet still had the unmitigated gall to ask for
          exegesis that proved the Pope of Rome to be the Antichrist!
          >
          > How is one who throws around words like "exegesis" to be taken
          seriously, when he obviously hasn't educated himself in the works of
          those whom he claims as spiritual brethren, such as the Reformers
          and the Puritans? If he rejects THEIR exegesis of Revelation
          chapters 13 and 17, or that of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, what on
          earth, then, would suddenly cause him to accept the exegesis of the
          brother with whom he was having this discussion? Who can call
          themselves a Puritan or a Reformed Protestant, and REJECT ALL of
          what the Reformers and Puritans taught concerning the identities of
          THE Antichrist, THE man of sin, and Mystery Babylon?
          >
          > This so-called "puritan sailor" begs for exegesis...ANY
          exegesis...proving the Pope of Rome to be THE antichrist --, yet
          what do you suppose he did with it, when it was offered? The
          exegesis of one William Perkins (a true Puritan) was offered to this
          puritan pretender, in the form of an excerpt from An Excellent
          Sermon Plainly Proving That Rome is Babylon, and That Babylon is
          Fallen (1595),as was Francis Turretin's 7th Disputation, Whether It
          Can Be Proven the Pope of Rome is the Antichrist (circa 1661). How
          did the "puritan sailor" respond to the former?
          >
          > "Using Perkin's [sic] quote above, I find some flaws in
          exegesis."
          >
          > There you have it. Not only would this arrogant puritan
          pretender reject the exegesis of anyone and everyone who would claim
          the Pope to be the Antichrist, but he obviously isn't even familiar
          enough with the real Puritan, with whom he finds these so-called
          flaws in exegesis, to know that his last name is NOT Perkin!
          Strangely, he had nothing to say about Turretin's
          exegesis...probably because he didn't bother reading it.
          >
          > Here are some more ignorant proclamations from the puritan
          pretender:
          >
          > "The book of Revelation would have very little application
          to first century Christians if the Pope was the Antichrist simple
          [sic] because there was no Pope."
          >
          > "There is no disagreement that the Pope is antichristian.
          And, there's probably no disagreement that the Pope most likely
          embodied the greatest spirit of antichrist during the Reformation.
          But that is not the case anymore. The spirit of antichrist is much
          greater in scope than Roman Catholicism." (emphasis added)
          >
          >
          > And have a look at this gem, from a "reformed" pastor:
          >
          > "The Bible nowhere outright states that the Pope of Rome is
          the antichrist. The Bible is clear that there have been and will
          continue to be many antichrists, and while some will say that the
          Pope is an antichrist, declaring such is not a litmus test for
          orthodoxy."
          >
          >
          > Lastly, observe the following, which was the response I
          received from the very well-educated founder of a "Puritan" website.
          I asked him, "Who/what is the man of sin of 2 Thes 2?" Knowing his
          familiarity with Reformed doctrine, as well as how vast his personal
          library must be, knowing he owns the Reformation Bookshelf and
          Puritan Bookshelf CD sets from Still Waters Revival Books...62 CDs
          in all, I found his response to my simple question to be arrogant,
          high-minded, mind-blowing, and simply a slap in the face to those
          Reformers and Puritans who proclaimed truths that he, with this
          ridiculous answer, denies. Who does this "puritan" pseudo-scholar
          make the man of sin to be? Observe:
          >
          > "Antichristian government or pressures in the world."
          >
          > And, to make matters worse, he later told me that,
          >
          > "The Antichrist himself was not Pope Innocent the III, or
          Pope John Paul 1st. We will have to 'see' who may be
          the 'one' 'giant' Antichrist, that man of sin, when he arises to the
          scene." (emphasis added)
          >
          > This so-called "puritan" not only looks for the man of sin
          (whom he had just said was "antichristian government") to be an
          individual man (one "giant" Antichrist), but he also denies that the
          man of sin had already been on the scene more than 700 years ago,
          and looks for him to first come on the scene at some FUTURE DATE (as
          do the papists)! Thus, he outright denies what millions of ancient
          Christians, Reformers, Puritans, and post-reformers before him have
          ALL proclaimed (many to their deaths), viz., that the man of sin,
          the antichrist, the beast, was not to come at some point in the
          future, but was the one that was killing Christians, and was the one
          reigning IN THEIR MIDST, with his seat and harlot church both
          residing in Rome!
          >
          > The above men will quickly claim that they believe the papacy
          is antichrist, as did the founder, mentioned above, in an e-mail
          correspondence with me (see below), but notice how they word such an
          empty creedal statement. They make sure to leave out the article
          THE, and refer to the papacy as just "antichrist," "antichristian,"
          or "AN antichrist." They just can't bring their intellects down
          from out of the clouds to embrace that which was revelaed to
          millions of martyred brethren over the last millennium: the papacy
          is THE antichrist, THE man of sin, and THE beast from the sea!
          >
          > Here are some questions I put to the founder, via e-mail. His
          responses are in blue:
          >
          > 1) Who/what is the beast that rose out of the sea, in Rev
          13? Devil - the hand of the devil
          > 2) Who/what is the man of sin of 2 Thes 2? Antichristian
          government or pressures in the world
          > 3) Who/what is the little horn of Daniel 9? Antichrist
          government or pressures in the world
          > 4) Who/what is Mystery, Babylon the Great of Rev 17?
          Possibly the Roman Catholic Church (see WCF)
          > 5) Who/what is the beast that rose out of the earth, in Rev
          13? Devil - the wisdom of the devil
          > 6) Who/what is the "let" of 2 Thes 2? "no one", then the
          Antichristian influences
          > 7) Who/what are the Locusts of Rev 9? The power and
          influences of hell over wicked men
          > 8) Who/what are the two witnesses of Rev 11? The church
          militant - the preaching of the word and sacraments
          > 9) What is the mark, name, and number of the beast, in Rev
          13? Unregenerate influences against the church
          >
          >
          > Notice his response to question #4. He implies the WCF could
          be right about Mystery Babylon's identity, but he himself won't be
          dogmatic about it! What's more, when a good friend of mine said the
          following to one of the administrators in a PRIVATE e-mail exchange,
          he was promptly banned from the discussion board!
          >
          > "The infallible Word of God states explicitly that if any
          man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God
          shall take away his part of the book of life....
          >
          > The official sanctioned website of the OPC has willfully and
          maliciously - not from ignorance - deleted the identity of the arch-
          enemy of Christ and His Church, thus re-inventing the true
          interpretation of the Revelation which Christ infallibly wills His
          Elect know and understand. Of course, you must know the PCA has done
          likewise."
          >
          > Perkins and Turretin, to whom these men are particularly
          partial, must be rolling in their graves!
          >
          > One will search high and low on McMahon's website for any
          mention of the papal antichrist and his church, Mystery Babylon. I
          find this a STARTLING revelation, considering the fact that during
          the Reformation era, naming antichrist and his harlot church
          proceeded directly out of, and was a natural result of, preaching
          salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone...the
          two proclamations, combined, being the very justification for
          separating from the Church of Rome! How that founder can claim to
          have "a puritan's mind," yet keep the elect IN THE DARK as to THE
          antichrist's true identity is truly a mystery. To make matters
          worse, he allows preterists to openly posit their heresy at his so-
          called "puritan" board. As long as "Christ crucified" is the
          uniting mantra, all are welcome to insert their particular heresies
          without fear of chastisement or excommunication...as long as you
          don't pass judgment on a "reformed" Church that has expunged the
          identity of the man of sin from the WCF!
          >
          > What that "puritan" founder IS, in fact, is a closet-
          futurist. He said the following to me, in the course of our e-
          mail "debate:"
          > "The office of the Antichrist is the papal succession. The
          Antichrist himself was not Pope Innocent the III, or Pope John Paul
          1st. We will have to "see" who may be the "one" "giant" Antichrist,
          that man of sin, when he arises to the scene. We can say that the
          line is Antichrist (and I do)."
          >
          > Notice his little deceptive play on words, as he tries to make
          me believe he is in agreement with the Reformers and Puritans
          through the ages, regarding the identity of the antichrist:
          >
          > "We can say that the line is Antichrist (and I do)."
          >
          > The line of popes are ANTICHRIST, and the OFFICE of the
          Antichrist IS the papal succession, but it isn't THE ANTICHRIST. In
          other words, McMahon believes the office of popes to be
          antichristian, and that THE Antichrist will come from that
          succession...but he isn't here today, nor has he come in the past.
          >
          > "We will have to "see" who may be the "one" "giant"
          Antichrist, that man of sin, when he arises to the scene."
          >
          > All one has to do is look at this "puritan's" response to my 9
          questions above, and his absolute opposition to the very ones he
          claims as spiritual ancestors is immediately made known! Truly the
          wheat is being sifted from the tares, as, day after day, month after
          month, more and more who claim to be "reformed protestants" are
          showing themselves to be in bed with ROME, as they find all sorts of
          creative ways to relegate the antichrist's reign of terror to the
          past or the future, but never to the present.
          >
          > "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall
          consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the
          brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the
          working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And
          with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish;
          because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be
          saved.
          >
          > And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that
          they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who
          believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
          >
          > They received not the love of the truth because they were sent
          strong delusion by God Himself. These are obviosuly reprobates who
          were fitted for destruction from the foundation of the world....for
          the Lord never UN-elects one of His elect to damn them. These false
          Christians -- tares among the wheat -- because they never received a
          love of the truth (a mark of being elect), believed a LIE.
          >
          > The "truth" that was not believed cannot refer to "rejecting
          the Gospel," as some believe. The topic of the chapter is not the
          Gospel, but the revealing of the man of sin. Therefore, the LIE
          that is believed is directly related to the revealing of the man of
          sin.
          >
          > Lord come quickly!
          >
          > Take care,
          > Keith
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Theodore Letis
          > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: 12/3/2004 5:06:48 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Site Update
          >
          >
          > Keith,
          >
          > what I find odd is that "conservative" (not liberal)
          Calvinists can't even accept it from Calvin himself in the
          Institutes--THE primary source of the Reformed Reformation. but yet
          they can accept Preterism from Sproul and others--a blatant heresy
          (partial or otherwise). Let's see...Calvin wrong; Sproul right!?
          >
          > Amongst confessional Lutherans I have never met one who did
          not toally agree with Luther on the Antichrist. Not one! Why is
          that? I think it is because the Reformed claim to be "Reformed...but
          always Reforming," so in some respects these Reformed are more like
          Rome: the faith keeps getting revised like Bill Gate's Microsoft
          Word, so that only the "latest" version is the correct version.
          Thanks God you have been led to keep these works available.
          >
          > Ted
          >
          > keith dotzler <kdotz@e...> wrote:
          > I appreciate that bro Ted. There are many more such works
          in my arsenal, which I wish to share with the brethren over the
          course of the coming years. I only wish those fancy Caligraphic old
          English fonts wouldn't have been used...because then I could scan
          them, rather than having to transcribe them by hand! ;-)
          >
          > Though it's time consuming to place such excerpts on the
          web, it's a very small price to pay....
          >
          > As a professing Christian (during my Arminian days), I was
          wholly ignorant of the existence of such works for over 11 years!
          >
          > Even after my eyes were opened to the Doctrines of Grace a
          couple years back, I had so-called "reformed Calvinists" telling me
          that eschatology was all but passed over by the Reformers and post
          reformers, and that belief in a pre-trib rapture and
          premillennialism were Biblically sound, and wholly compatible with
          CALVINISM and REFORMED PROTESTANISM!!! After all, you know the
          standard line used by those who think they're more intelligent and
          more in tune with the Spirit than the Reformers were: "they were
          only men."
          >
          > I have discovered, first-hand, that all who claim the name
          of "reformed Protestant," who say that the subject of Antichrist
          rarely came up before, during, or after the Reformation, are
          ignorantly speaking words without knowledge (to their shame).
          >
          > Having done the leg work necessary to acquire...
          > a.. the MANY treatises on Antichrist that circulated
          during the 16th and 17th centuries (Turretin, Beard, Bradshaw,
          Daneau, Deios, Garrett, Gwalther, Jones, Rainolds, Osiander, Sohn,
          Hall, Zwingli, Becon, Barnes, Downame, Whitaker, Tyndale, Luther,
          etc),
          > b.. as well as the NUMEROUS commentaries on the
          Revelation from the same era (Holland, Fulke, Pareus, Newton,
          Brightman, Mede, Junius, More, Durham, Dent, Cotton, Perkins,
          Cartwright, Bale),
          > c.. not to mention the 16th & 17th century commentaries
          on 2 Thessalonians (Tymme, Fergusson, Squire, Jewel, Manton,
          Bullinger, Fulke, and Cartwright),
          > ....I find it simply INCREDIBLE that so many,
          many "reformed" brethren could even muster up the THOUGHT that
          antichrist was a non-issue...let alone making those ignorant
          thoughts PUBLIC! How can such a vast library be missed?
          >
          > Sadly, multitudes who name the name of Christ have
          absolutely no idea that the testimony of the saints of the last 7+
          centuries has been preserved for us in various forms....all of which
          points the true Church of God to the identity of the man of sin and
          his harlot Church -- Mystery Babylon. These treasures are crassly
          cast aside and ignored by the intellectuals among us -- relegated to
          the "works of men" bin.
          >
          > Today's professing apostate Christian thinks it
          more "godly" to shout "give me the Bible and nothing else," than to
          examine the writings of our departed brethren, to see what they
          believed and WHY. Some of these pretenders then get positions in
          their local churches TEACHING others the false "truths" they
          received of the Spirit, while studying their Bible and nothing
          else. Then comes the day when one of his students asks him about
          the identity of the antichrist. The teacher, proud of the fact that
          he has his Bible and nothing else, proudly proclaims,
          >
          > "Why, we obviously can't know who he is, until he's
          revealed after the rapture!"
          >
          > But, says the student, the historic Church over the course
          of the last 7 centuries, with one voice, has proclaimed that the
          Pope of Rome is the Antichrist.
          >
          > "Well," says the teacher, "they were just men. You
          shouldn't put much stock in their commentaries and other writings.
          The Bible alone will give you the answers, through the guidance of
          the Holy Spirit."
          >
          > Well, says the student, first of all, aren't YOU a man?
          >
          > Secondly, if the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, and
          if he has already guided the historic Church of the last 7 centuries
          into the truth about the Antichrist's identity, and if we now ignore
          that revelation and await our own, wouldn't we be rejecting the
          truth?
          >
          > Thirdly, of what use are teachers, preachers, evangelists,
          pastors, etc, if we aren't to LISTEN TO THEM?
          >
          >
          >
          > Take care,
          > Keith
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: Theodore Letis
          > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: 12/1/2004 10:09:29 PM
          > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Site Update
          >
          >
          > What I attempted to say below was that I very much
          enjoyed the website noted by Keith below and am happy to see those
          important documents yet out there for all to read...for now.
          >
          > Ted
          >
          >
          > urces are out thre and still readable...for now...
          >
          > Ted
          >
          > keith dotzler <kdotz@e...> wrote:
          >
          > Friends,
          >
          > Our site has been updated.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          http://www.geocities.com/ll_twoedged_sword_ll/main.html
          >
          >
          > In Christ,
          > Keith Dotzler
          > kdotz@e...
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Cheryl
          It will be a grand day when the quality of our *practice* matches the quality of our profession. Cheryl ... From: Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
          Message 4 of 14 , Dec 7, 2004
            It will be a grand day when the quality of our *practice* matches the quality of our profession.
             
            Cheryl
            ----- Original Message -----
            Reformed/Presbyterian/Calvinsim is the most purest & faithful
            expression of Christianity...the doctrine...not necessarily always
            the adherents...
          • Keith Dotzler
            Amen bro Ted. I am simply amazed, and baffled at the same time, at the number of references that modern protestants make to contemporary authors -- to the
            Message 5 of 14 , Dec 8, 2004
              Amen bro Ted. I am simply amazed, and baffled at the same time, at
              the number of references that modern "protestants" make to
              contemporary authors -- to the utter and complete negligence of the
              conclusions arrived at by the Reformers and Puritans -- when the
              subject of the Antichrist is discussed!

              You won't see them citing Turretin, Jewel, Tymme, Fergusson, Perkins,
              Brightman, Pareus, Fulke, or Cartwright as proudly as they cite
              Gentry and others...unless, of course, it's to quibble about
              some "problems with [their] exegesis."

              Take care, brother!

              Keith









              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Theodore Letis
              <bucerian@y...> wrote:
              > Keith,
              >
              > You handled this perfectly. This is the rot that is coming out of
              PCA/OPC semianries, and from the Sproul/Packer pastor-graduates from
              these schools of the addle-minded. You nailed them justifiably by
              pointing out they are no more Puritan (or Reformed, for that matter)
              than are modern Methodists. But they are too ignorant to be able to
              blush when this is pointed out to them. The internet has done us much
              good, but that bad it has accomplished in turning knats in to
              draggons under the magnification of "attention-getting" from being
              someone in cyberspace, almost makes me wish for an earlier time, pre-
              internet "academics."
              >
              > Ted
              >
              > keith dotzler <kdotz@e...> wrote:
              > Bro Ted,
              >
              > You've said it all in that short post! Sadly, it is a rare
              occasion when one comes across a professed "protestant," who isn't a
              futurist or a preterist. In fact, outside of this list, I can count
              on one hand the number of truly Reformed Protestants that I've met AT
              PROTESTANT AND PURITAN DISCUSSION BOARDS....and I've been discussing
              this topic all over the web for around 3 years now!
              >
              > In case you weren't a member of this list when I made reference to
              Matt McMahon, founder of a website and discussion board called A
              Puritan's Mind, have a gander at the following. All of the citations
              come from members of his so-called "puritan" discussion board. In
              fact, they are all statements made by McMahon and his discussion
              board administrators...one and all professing to be of a puritan's
              mind...whatever that means in this day and age. What follows was
              originally formatted to be included as an appendix to my recent site
              update.
              >
              > Hold on to your hat....
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > I offer the following, from another who claims to be reformed and a
              Calvinist, yet opposes Calvin and the rest of the Reformers, as well
              as the very ones after whom he has named himself ("puritan sailor"),
              in denying the Pope to be the antichrist! —
              >
              > "Here again, you are assuming the Antichrist is the Pope. You have
              not yet proven that. Just because the Reformers thought so doesn't
              make it right. Please give me your exegetical grounds for your
              perspective....Just because martyrs may identify someone as the
              antichrist doesn't mean they are correct. I must rely in Scripture
              alone. So if you can't give me your exegesis then at least give me
              theirs." (emphasis added)
              >
              > Not only has this puritan pretender trampled upon the blood of
              every last Christian martyr who named the Pope as the antichrist, but
              the brother to whom that whole paragraph was directed has a website
              PACKED with the testimony of the saints through the ages, all of
              which was at this puritan pretender's fingertips, had he been so
              inclined to acquaint himself with the subject matter at hand, before
              publicly making a fool of himself. This so-called "puritan" pretends
              to be in search of a proper "exegesis" of Scripture regarding
              antichrist's identity, yet seems to be wholly oblivious to the fact
              that numerous works abounded during the Reformation era, and
              afterward, all of which prove the Pope of Rome to be that antichrist
              and man of sin foretold in Scripture, his false Church being Mystery
              Babylon. He was just a mouse-click away from that which he sought,
              yet still had the unmitigated gall to ask for exegesis that proved
              the Pope of Rome to be the Antichrist!
              >
              > How is one who throws around words like "exegesis" to be taken
              seriously, when he obviously hasn't educated himself in the works of
              those whom he claims as spiritual brethren, such as the Reformers and
              the Puritans? If he rejects THEIR exegesis of Revelation chapters 13
              and 17, or that of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, what on earth, then,
              would suddenly cause him to accept the exegesis of the brother with
              whom he was having this discussion? Who can call themselves a
              Puritan or a Reformed Protestant, and REJECT ALL of what the
              Reformers and Puritans taught concerning the identities of THE
              Antichrist, THE man of sin, and Mystery Babylon?
              >
              > This so-called "puritan sailor" begs for exegesis...ANY
              exegesis...proving the Pope of Rome to be THE antichrist --, yet what
              do you suppose he did with it, when it was offered? The exegesis of
              one William Perkins (a true Puritan) was offered to this puritan
              pretender, in the form of an excerpt from An Excellent Sermon Plainly
              Proving That Rome is Babylon, and That Babylon is Fallen (1595),as
              was Francis Turretin's 7th Disputation, Whether It Can Be Proven the
              Pope of Rome is the Antichrist (circa 1661). How did the "puritan
              sailor" respond to the former?
              >
              > "Using Perkin's [sic] quote above, I find some flaws in exegesis."
              >
              > There you have it. Not only would this arrogant puritan pretender
              reject the exegesis of anyone and everyone who would claim the Pope
              to be the Antichrist, but he obviously isn't even familiar enough
              with the real Puritan, with whom he finds these so-called flaws in
              exegesis, to know that his last name is NOT Perkin! Strangely, he
              had nothing to say about Turretin's exegesis...probably because he
              didn't bother reading it.
              >
              > Here are some more ignorant proclamations from the puritan
              pretender:
              >
              > "The book of Revelation would have very little application to first
              century Christians if the Pope was the Antichrist simple [sic]
              because there was no Pope."
              >
              > "There is no disagreement that the Pope is antichristian. And,
              there's probably no disagreement that the Pope most likely embodied
              the greatest spirit of antichrist during the Reformation. But that is
              not the case anymore. The spirit of antichrist is much greater in
              scope than Roman Catholicism." (emphasis added)
              >
              >
              > And have a look at this gem, from a "reformed" pastor:
              >
              > "The Bible nowhere outright states that the Pope of Rome is the
              antichrist. The Bible is clear that there have been and will continue
              to be many antichrists, and while some will say that the Pope is an
              antichrist, declaring such is not a litmus test for orthodoxy."
              >
              >
              > Lastly, observe the following, which was the response I received
              from the very well-educated founder of a "Puritan" website. I asked
              him, "Who/what is the man of sin of 2 Thes 2?" Knowing his
              familiarity with Reformed doctrine, as well as how vast his personal
              library must be, knowing he owns the Reformation Bookshelf and
              Puritan Bookshelf CD sets from Still Waters Revival Books...62 CDs in
              all, I found his response to my simple question to be arrogant, high-
              minded, mind-blowing, and simply a slap in the face to those
              Reformers and Puritans who proclaimed truths that he, with this
              ridiculous answer, denies. Who does this "puritan" pseudo-scholar
              make the man of sin to be? Observe:
              >
              > "Antichristian government or pressures in the world."
              >
              > And, to make matters worse, he later told me that,
              >
              > "The Antichrist himself was not Pope Innocent the III, or Pope John
              Paul 1st. We will have to 'see' who may be the 'one' 'giant'
              Antichrist, that man of sin, when he arises to the scene." (emphasis
              added)
              >
              > This so-called "puritan" not only looks for the man of sin (whom he
              had just said was "antichristian government") to be an individual man
              (one "giant" Antichrist), but he also denies that the man of sin had
              already been on the scene more than 700 years ago, and looks for him
              to first come on the scene at some FUTURE DATE (as do the papists)!
              Thus, he outright denies what millions of ancient Christians,
              Reformers, Puritans, and post-reformers before him have ALL
              proclaimed (many to their deaths), viz., that the man of sin, the
              antichrist, the beast, was not to come at some point in the future,
              but was the one that was killing Christians, and was the one reigning
              IN THEIR MIDST, with his seat and harlot church both residing in
              Rome!
              >
              > The above men will quickly claim that they believe the papacy is
              antichrist, as did the founder, mentioned above, in an e-mail
              correspondence with me (see below), but notice how they word such an
              empty creedal statement. They make sure to leave out the article
              THE, and refer to the papacy as just "antichrist," "antichristian,"
              or "AN antichrist." They just can't bring their intellects down from
              out of the clouds to embrace that which was revelaed to millions of
              martyred brethren over the last millennium: the papacy is THE
              antichrist, THE man of sin, and THE beast from the sea!
              >
              > Here are some questions I put to the founder, via e-mail. His
              responses are in blue:
              > 1) Who/what is the beast that rose out of the sea, in Rev 13?
              Devil - the hand of the devil
              > 2) Who/what is the man of sin of 2 Thes 2? Antichristian
              government or pressures in the world
              > 3) Who/what is the little horn of Daniel 9? Antichrist government
              or pressures in the world
              > 4) Who/what is Mystery, Babylon the Great of Rev 17? Possibly
              the Roman Catholic Church (see WCF)
              > 5) Who/what is the beast that rose out of the earth, in Rev 13?
              Devil - the wisdom of the devil
              > 6) Who/what is the "let" of 2 Thes 2? "no one", then the
              Antichristian influences
              > 7) Who/what are the Locusts of Rev 9? The power and influences of
              hell over wicked men
              > 8) Who/what are the two witnesses of Rev 11? The church
              militant - the preaching of the word and sacraments
              > 9) What is the mark, name, and number of the beast, in Rev 13?
              Unregenerate influences against the church
              >
              >
              >
              > Notice his response to question #4. He implies the WCF could be
              right about Mystery Babylon's identity, but he himself won't be
              dogmatic about it! What's more, when a good friend of mine said the
              following to one of the administrators in a PRIVATE e-mail exchange,
              he was promptly banned from the discussion board!
              >
              > "The infallible Word of God states explicitly that if any man shall
              take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take
              away his part of the book of life....
              >
              > The official sanctioned website of the OPC has willfully and
              maliciously - not from ignorance - deleted the identity of the arch-
              enemy of Christ and His Church, thus re-inventing the true
              interpretation of the Revelation which Christ infallibly wills His
              Elect know and understand. Of course, you must know the PCA has done
              likewise."
              >
              >
              > Perkins and Turretin, to whom these men are particularly partial,
              must be rolling in their graves!
              >
              > One will search high and low on McMahon's website for any mention
              of the papal antichrist and his church, Mystery Babylon. I find this
              a STARTLING revelation, considering the fact that during the
              Reformation era, naming antichrist and his harlot church proceeded
              directly out of, and was a natural result of, preaching salvation by
              grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone...the two
              proclamations, combined, being the very justification for separating
              from the Church of Rome! How that founder can claim to have "a
              puritan's mind," yet keep the elect IN THE DARK as to THE
              antichrist's true identity is truly a mystery. To make matters
              worse, he allows preterists to openly posit their heresy at his so-
              called "puritan" board. As long as "Christ crucified" is the uniting
              mantra, all are welcome to insert their particular heresies without
              fear of chastisement or excommunication...as long as you don't pass
              judgment on a "reformed" Church that has expunged the identity of the
              man of
              > sin from the WCF!
              >
              > What that "puritan" founder IS, in fact, is a closet-futurist. He
              said the following to me, in the course of our e-mail "debate:"
              > "The office of the Antichrist is the papal succession. The
              Antichrist himself was not Pope Innocent the III, or Pope John Paul
              1st. We will have to "see" who may be the "one" "giant" Antichrist,
              that man of sin, when he arises to the scene. We can say that the
              line is Antichrist (and I do)."
              >
              > Notice his little deceptive play on words, as he tries to make me
              believe he is in agreement with the Reformers and Puritans through
              the ages, regarding the identity of the antichrist:
              >
              > "We can say that the line is Antichrist (and I do)."
              >
              > The line of popes are ANTICHRIST, and the OFFICE of the Antichrist
              IS the papal succession, but it isn't THE ANTICHRIST. In other
              words, McMahon believes the office of popes to be antichristian, and
              that THE Antichrist will come from that succession...but he isn't
              here today, nor has he come in the past.
              >
              > "We will have to "see" who may be the "one" "giant" Antichrist,
              that man of sin, when he arises to the scene."
              >
              > All one has to do is look at this "puritan's" response to my 9
              questions above, and his absolute opposition to the very ones he
              claims as spiritual ancestors is immediately made known! Truly the
              wheat is being sifted from the tares, as, day after day, month after
              month, more and more who claim to be "reformed protestants" are
              showing themselves to be in bed with ROME, as they find all sorts of
              creative ways to relegate the antichrist's reign of terror to the
              past or the future, but never to the present.
              >
              > "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall
              consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the
              brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working
              of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all
              deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they
              received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
              >
              > And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they
              should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not
              the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
              >
              >
              >
              > They received not the love of the truth because they were sent
              strong delusion by God Himself. These are obviosuly reprobates who
              were fitted for destruction from the foundation of the world....for
              the Lord never UN-elects one of His elect to damn them. These false
              Christians -- tares among the wheat -- because they never received a
              love of the truth (a mark of being elect), believed a LIE.
              >
              > The "truth" that was not believed cannot refer to "rejecting the
              Gospel," as some believe. The topic of the chapter is not the
              Gospel, but the revealing of the man of sin. Therefore, the LIE that
              is believed is directly related to the revealing of the man of sin.
              >
              >
              > Lord come quickly!
              >
              > Take care,
              > Keith
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Theodore Letis
              > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: 12/3/2004 5:06:48 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Site Update
              >
              >
              > Keith,
              >
              > what I find odd is that "conservative" (not liberal) Calvinists
              can't even accept it from Calvin himself in the Institutes--THE
              primary source of the Reformed Reformation. but yet they can accept
              Preterism from Sproul and others--a blatant heresy (partial or
              otherwise). Let's see...Calvin wrong; Sproul right!?
              >
              > Amongst confessional Lutherans I have never met one who did not
              toally agree with Luther on the Antichrist. Not one! Why is that? I
              think it is because the Reformed claim to be "Reformed...but always
              Reforming," so in some respects these Reformed are more like Rome:
              the faith keeps getting revised like Bill Gate's Microsoft Word, so
              that only the "latest" version is the correct version. Thanks God you
              have been led to keep these works available.
              >
              > Ted
              >
              > keith dotzler <kdotz@e...> wrote:
              > I appreciate that bro Ted. There are many more such works in my
              arsenal, which I wish to share with the brethren over the course of
              the coming years. I only wish those fancy Caligraphic old English
              fonts wouldn't have been used...because then I could scan them,
              rather than having to transcribe them by hand! ;-)
              >
              > Though it's time consuming to place such excerpts on the web, it's
              a very small price to pay....
              >
              > As a professing Christian (during my Arminian days), I was wholly
              ignorant of the existence of such works for over 11 years!
              >
              > Even after my eyes were opened to the Doctrines of Grace a couple
              years back, I had so-called "reformed Calvinists" telling me that
              eschatology was all but passed over by the Reformers and post
              reformers, and that belief in a pre-trib rapture and premillennialism
              were Biblically sound, and wholly compatible with CALVINISM and
              REFORMED PROTESTANISM!!! After all, you know the standard line used
              by those who think they're more intelligent and more in tune with the
              Spirit than the Reformers were: "they were only men."
              >
              > I have discovered, first-hand, that all who claim the name
              of "reformed Protestant," who say that the subject of Antichrist
              rarely came up before, during, or after the Reformation, are
              ignorantly speaking words without knowledge (to their shame).
              >
              > Having done the leg work necessary to acquire...
              >
              > the MANY treatises on Antichrist that circulated during the 16th
              and 17th centuries (Turretin, Beard, Bradshaw, Daneau, Deios,
              Garrett, Gwalther, Jones, Rainolds, Osiander, Sohn, Hall, Zwingli,
              Becon, Barnes, Downame, Whitaker, Tyndale, Luther, etc),
              > as well as the NUMEROUS commentaries on the Revelation from the
              same era (Holland, Fulke, Pareus, Newton, Brightman, Mede, Junius,
              More, Durham, Dent, Cotton, Perkins, Cartwright, Bale),
              > not to mention the 16th & 17th century commentaries on 2
              Thessalonians (Tymme, Fergusson, Squire, Jewel, Manton, Bullinger,
              Fulke, and Cartwright),
              > ....I find it simply INCREDIBLE that so many, many "reformed"
              brethren could even muster up the THOUGHT that antichrist was a non-
              issue...let alone making those ignorant thoughts PUBLIC! How can
              such a vast library be missed?
              >
              > Sadly, multitudes who name the name of Christ have absolutely no
              idea that the testimony of the saints of the last 7+ centuries has
              been preserved for us in various forms....all of which points the
              true Church of God to the identity of the man of sin and his harlot
              Church -- Mystery Babylon. These treasures are crassly cast aside
              and ignored by the intellectuals among us -- relegated to the "works
              of men" bin.
              >
              > Today's professing apostate Christian thinks it more "godly" to
              shout "give me the Bible and nothing else," than to examine the
              writings of our departed brethren, to see what they believed and
              WHY. Some of these pretenders then get positions in their local
              churches TEACHING others the false "truths" they received of the
              Spirit, while studying their Bible and nothing else. Then comes the
              day when one of his students asks him about the identity of the
              antichrist. The teacher, proud of the fact that he has his Bible and
              nothing else, proudly proclaims,
              >
              > "Why, we obviously can't know who he is, until he's revealed after
              the rapture!"
              >
              > But, says the student, the historic Church over the course of the
              last 7 centuries, with one voice, has proclaimed that the Pope of
              Rome is the Antichrist.
              >
              > "Well," says the teacher, "they were just men. You shouldn't put
              much stock in their commentaries and other writings. The Bible alone
              will give you the answers, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit."
              >
              > Well, says the student, first of all, aren't YOU a man?
              >
              > Secondly, if the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, and if he
              has already guided the historic Church of the last 7 centuries into
              the truth about the Antichrist's identity, and if we now ignore that
              revelation and await our own, wouldn't we be rejecting the truth?
              >
              > Thirdly, of what use are teachers, preachers, evangelists, pastors,
              etc, if we aren't to LISTEN TO THEM?
              >
              >
              >
              > Take care,
              > Keith
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message -----
              > From: Theodore Letis
              > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: 12/1/2004 10:09:29 PM
              > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Site Update
              >
              >
              > What I attempted to say below was that I very much enjoyed the
              website noted by Keith below and am happy to see those important
              documents yet out there for all to read...for now.
              >
              > Ted
              >
              >
              > urces are out thre and still readable...for now...
              >
              > Ted
              >
              > keith dotzler <kdotz@e...> wrote:
              >
              > Friends,
              >
              > Our site has been updated.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > http://www.geocities.com/ll_twoedged_sword_ll/main.html
              >
              >
              > In Christ,
              > Keith Dotzler
              > kdotz@e...
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
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            • Theodore Letis
              My Covenanter brethren (Parnell in particular): I am embarrassed to have to call on you but my two libraries are in storage--one in Grand Rapids, the other in
              Message 6 of 14 , Dec 21, 2004
                My Covenanter brethren (Parnell in particular):
                 
                I am embarrassed to have to call on you but my two libraries are in storage--one in Grand Rapids, the other in Edinburgh--and I need a quick answer to a historical question:
                 
                What was the name of the papal encyclical written in the sixteenth century claiming all lands discovered in the New World to be under the political and spiritual authority of the Roman Church? Also the date, where and English edition of the text can be found, and the author (which Pope). Many thanks for your help on this.
                 
                --Theodore P. Letis

                Theodore Letis <bucerian@...> wrote:
                Keith,
                 
                You handled this perfectly. This is the rot that is coming out of PCA/OPC semianries, and from the Sproul/Packer pastor-graduates from these schools of the addle-minded. You nailed them justifiably by pointing out they are no more Puritan (or Reformed, for that matter) than are modern Methodists. But they are too ignorant to be able to blush when this is pointed out to them. The internet has done us much good, but that bad it has accomplished in turning knats in to draggons under the magnification of "attention-getting" from being someone in cyberspace, almost makes me wish for an earlier time, pre-internet "academics."
                 
                Ted

                keith dotzler <kdotz@...> wrote:
                Bro Ted,
                 
                You've said it all in that short post!  Sadly, it is a rare occasion when one comes across a professed "protestant," who isn't a futurist or a preterist.  In fact, outside of this list, I can count on one hand the number of truly Reformed Protestants that I've met AT PROTESTANT AND PURITAN DISCUSSION BOARDS....and I've been discussing this topic all over the web for around 3 years now!
                 
                In case you weren't a member of this list when I made reference to Matt McMahon, founder of a website and discussion board called A Puritan's Mind, have a gander at the following.  All of the citations come from members of his so-called "puritan" discussion board.  In fact, they are all statements made by McMahon and his discussion board administrators...one and all professing to be of a puritan's mind...whatever that means in this day and age.  What follows was originally formatted to be included as an appendix to my recent site update.
                 
                Hold on to your hat....
                 
                 
                     

                I offer the following, from another who claims to be reformed and a Calvinist, yet opposes Calvin and the rest of the Reformers, as well as the very ones after whom he has named himself ("puritan sailor"), in denying the Pope to be the antichrist!

                �Here again, you are assuming the Antichrist is the Pope. You have not yet proven that. Just because the Reformers thought so doesn't make it right. Please give me your exegetical grounds for your perspective....Just because martyrs may identify someone as the antichrist doesn't mean they are correct. I must rely in Scripture alone. So if you can't give me your exegesis then at least give me theirs.�  (emphasis added)

                Not only has this puritan pretender trampled upon the blood of every last Christian martyr who named the Pope as the antichrist, but the brother to whom that whole paragraph was directed has a website PACKED with the testimony of the saints through the ages, all of which was at this puritan pretender's fingertips, had he been so inclined to acquaint himself with the subject matter at hand, before publicly making a fool of himself.  This so-called "puritan" pretends to be in search of a proper "exegesis" of Scripture regarding antichrist's identity, yet seems to be wholly oblivious to the fact that numerous works abounded during the Reformation era, and afterward, all of which prove the Pope of Rome to be that antichrist and man of sin foretold in Scripture, his false Church being Mystery Babylon.  He was just a mouse-click away from that which he sought, yet still had the unmitigated gall to ask for exegesis that proved the Pope of Rome to be the Antichrist! 

                How is one who throws around words like "exegesis" to be taken seriously, when he obviously hasn't educated himself in the works of those whom he claims as spiritual brethren, such as the Reformers and the Puritans?  If he rejects THEIR exegesis of Revelation chapters 13 and 17, or that of 2 Thessalonians chapter 2, what on earth, then, would suddenly cause him to accept the exegesis of the brother with whom he was having this discussion?  Who can call themselves a Puritan or a Reformed Protestant, and REJECT ALL of what the Reformers and Puritans taught concerning the identities of THE Antichrist, THE man of sin, and Mystery Babylon? 

                This so-called "puritan sailor" begs for exegesis...ANY exegesis...proving the Pope of Rome to be THE antichrist --, yet what do you suppose he did with it, when it was offered?  The exegesis of one William Perkins (a true Puritan) was offered to this puritan pretender, in the form of an excerpt from An Excellent Sermon Plainly Proving That Rome is Babylon, and That Babylon is Fallen (1595),as was Francis Turretin's 7th Disputation, Whether It Can Be Proven the Pope of Rome is the Antichrist (circa 1661).  How did the "puritan sailor" respond to the former?

                "Using Perkin's [sic] quote above, I find some flaws in exegesis."

                There you have it.  Not only would this arrogant puritan pretender reject the exegesis of anyone and everyone who would claim the Pope to be the Antichrist, but he obviously isn't even familiar enough with the real Puritan, with whom he finds these so-called flaws in exegesis, to know that his last name is NOT Perkin!   Strangely, he had nothing to say about Turretin's exegesis...probably because he didn't bother reading it.

                Here are some more ignorant proclamations from the puritan pretender:

                The book of Revelation would have very little application to first century Christians if the Pope was the Antichrist simple [sic] because there was no Pope.

                There is no disagreement that the Pope is antichristian. And, there's probably no disagreement that the Pope most likely embodied the greatest spirit of antichrist during the Reformation. But that is not the case anymore. The spirit of antichrist is much greater in scope than Roman Catholicism.�  (emphasis added)
                 

                And have a look at this gem, from a "reformed" pastor:

                �The Bible nowhere outright states that the Pope of Rome is the antichrist. The Bible is clear that there have been and will continue to be many antichrists, and while some will say that the Pope is an antichrist, declaring such is not a litmus test for orthodoxy.�
                 

                Lastly, observe the following, which was the response I received from the very well-educated founder of a "Puritan" website. I asked him, �Who/what is the man of sin of 2 Thes 2?�  Knowing his familiarity with Reformed doctrine, as well as how vast his personal library must be, knowing he owns the Reformation Bookshelf and Puritan Bookshelf CD sets from Still Waters Revival Books...62 CDs in all, I found his response to my simple question to be arrogant, high-minded, mind-blowing, and simply a slap in the face to those Reformers and Puritans who proclaimed truths that he, with this ridiculous answer, denies.  Who does this "puritan" pseudo-scholar make the man of sin to be?  Observe: 

                �Antichristian government or pressures in the world. 

                And, to make matters worse, he later told me that,

                �The Antichrist himself was not Pope Innocent the III, or Pope John Paul 1st.  We will have to 'see' who may be the 'one' 'giant' Antichrist, that man of sin, when he arises to the scene. (emphasis added)

                This so-called "puritan" not only looks for the man of sin (whom he had just said was "antichristian government") to be an individual man (one "giant" Antichrist), but he also denies that the man of sin had already been on the scene more than 700 years ago, and looks for him to first come on the scene at some FUTURE DATE (as do the papists)!  Thus, he outright denies what millions of ancient Christians, Reformers, Puritans, and post-reformers before him have ALL proclaimed (many to their deaths), viz., that the man of sin, the antichrist, the beast, was not to come at some point in the future, but was the one that was killing Christians, and was the one reigning IN THEIR MIDST, with his seat and harlot church both residing in Rome! 

                The above men will quickly claim that they believe the papacy is antichrist, as did the founder, mentioned above, in an e-mail correspondence with me (see below), but notice how they word such an empty creedal statement.  They make sure to leave out the article THE, and refer to the papacy as just "antichrist," "antichristian," or "AN antichrist."  They just can't bring their intellects down from out of the clouds to embrace that which was revelaed to millions of martyred brethren over the last millennium:  the papacy is THE antichrist, THE man of sin, and THE beast from the sea! 

                Here are some questions I put to the founder, via e-mail.  His responses are in blue:

                1)  Who/what is the beast that rose out of the sea, in Rev 13?  Devil - the hand of the devil
                2)  Who/what is the man of sin of 2 Thes 2?  Antichristian government or pressures in the world
                3)  Who/what is the little horn of Daniel 9?  Antichrist government or pressures in the world
                4)  Who/what is Mystery, Babylon the Great of Rev 17?   Possibly the Roman Catholic Church (see WCF)
                5)  Who/what is the beast that rose out of the earth, in Rev 13?   Devil - the wisdom of the devil
                6)  Who/what is the "let" of 2 Thes 2?  "no one", then the Antichristian influences
                7)  Who/what are the Locusts of Rev 9?  The power and influences of hell over wicked men
                8)  Who/what are the two witnesses of Rev 11?   The church militant - the preaching of the word and sacraments
                9)  What is the mark, name, and number of the beast, in Rev 13?  Unregenerate influences against the church
                 
                 
                Notice his response to question #4.  He implies the WCF could be right about Mystery Babylon's identity, but he himself won't be dogmatic about it!  What's more, when a good friend of mine said the following to one of the administrators in a PRIVATE e-mail exchange, he was promptly banned from the discussion board!
                 
                "The infallible Word of God states explicitly that if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part of the book of life....
                 
                The official sanctioned website of the OPC has willfully and maliciously - not from ignorance - deleted the identity of the arch-enemy of Christ and His Church, thus re-inventing the true interpretation of the Revelation which Christ infallibly wills His Elect know and understand. Of course, you must know the PCA has done likewise."
                 
                Perkins and Turretin, to whom these men are particularly partial, must be rolling in their graves!
                 
                One will search high and low on McMahon's website for any mention of the papal antichrist and his church, Mystery Babylon.  I find this a STARTLING revelation, considering the fact that during the Reformation era, naming antichrist and his harlot church proceeded directly out of, and was a natural result of, preaching salvation by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone...the two proclamations, combined, being the very justification for separating from the Church of Rome!  How that founder can claim to have "a puritan's mind," yet keep the elect IN THE DARK as to THE antichrist's true identity is truly a mystery.  To make matters worse, he allows preterists to openly posit their heresy at his so-called "puritan" board.  As long as "Christ crucified" is the uniting mantra, all are welcome to insert their particular heresies without fear of chastisement or excommunication...as long as you don't pass judgment on a "reformed" Church that has expunged the identity of the man of sin from the WCF! 
                 
                What that "puritan" founder IS, in fact, is a closet-futurist.  He said the following to me, in the course of our e-mail "debate:"
                "The office of the Antichrist is the papal succession.  The Antichrist himself was not Pope Innocent the III, or Pope John Paul 1st.  We will have to "see" who may be the "one" "giant" Antichrist, that man of sin, when he arises to the scene.  We can say that the line is Antichrist (and I do)." 
                 
                Notice his little deceptive play on words, as he tries to make me believe he is in agreement with the Reformers and Puritans through the ages, regarding the identity of the antichrist: 
                 
                "We can say that the line is Antichrist (and I do)." 
                 
                The line of popes are ANTICHRIST, and the OFFICE of the Antichrist IS the papal succession, but it isn't THE ANTICHRIST.  In other words, McMahon believes the office of popes to be antichristian, and that THE Antichrist will come from that succession...but he isn't here today, nor has he come in the past. 
                 
                "We will have to "see" who may be the "one" "giant" Antichrist, that man of sin, when he arises to the scene."
                 
                All one has to do is look at this "puritan's" response to my 9 questions above, and his absolute opposition to the very ones he claims as spiritual ancestors is immediately made known!  Truly the wheat is being sifted from the tares, as, day after day, month after month, more and more who claim to be "reformed protestants" are showing themselves to be in bed with ROME, as they find all sorts of creative ways to relegate the antichrist's reign of terror to the past or the future, but never to the present.  
                 
                "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
                 
                And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness."
                 
                They received not the love of the truth because they were sent strong delusion by God Himself.  These are obviosuly reprobates who were fitted for destruction from the foundation of the world....for the Lord never UN-elects one of His elect to damn them.  These false Christians -- tares among the wheat -- because they never received a love of the truth (a mark of being elect), believed a LIE.
                 
                The "truth" that was not believed cannot refer to "rejecting the Gospel," as some believe.  The topic of the chapter is not the Gospel, but the revealing of the man of sin.  Therefore, the LIE that is believed is directly related to the revealing of the man of sin.
                 
                Lord come quickly!
                 
                Take care,
                Keith
                 
                 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: 12/3/2004 5:06:48 PM
                Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Site Update

                Keith,
                 
                what I find odd is that "conservative" (not liberal) Calvinists can't even accept it from Calvin himself in the Institutes--THE primary source of the Reformed Reformation. but yet they can accept Preterism from Sproul and others--a blatant heresy (partial or otherwise). Let's see...Calvin wrong; Sproul right!? 
                 
                Amongst confessional Lutherans I have never met one who did not toally agree with Luther on the Antichrist. Not one! Why is that? I think it is because the Reformed claim to be "Reformed...but always Reforming," so in some respects these Reformed are more like Rome: the faith keeps getting revised like Bill Gate's Microsoft Word, so that only the "latest" version is the correct version. Thanks God you have been led to keep these works available.
                 
                Ted

                keith dotzler <kdotz@...> wrote:
                I appreciate that bro Ted.  There are many more such works in my arsenal, which I wish to share with the brethren over the course of the coming years.  I only wish those fancy Caligraphic old English fonts wouldn't have been used...because then I could scan them, rather than having to transcribe them by hand!    ;-)
                 
                Though it's time consuming to place such excerpts on the web, it's a very small price to pay....
                 
                As a professing Christian (during my Arminian days), I was wholly ignorant of the existence of such works for over 11 years! 
                 
                Even after my eyes were opened to the Doctrines of Grace a couple years back, I had so-called "reformed Calvinists" telling me that eschatology was all but passed over by the Reformers and post reformers, and that belief in a pre-trib rapture and premillennialism were Biblically sound, and wholly compatible with CALVINISM and REFORMED PROTESTANISM!!!  After all, you know the standard line used by those who think they're more intelligent and more in tune with the Spirit than the Reformers were: "they were only men."
                 
                I have discovered, first-hand, that all who claim the name of "reformed Protestant," who say that the subject of Antichrist rarely came up before, during, or after the Reformation, are ignorantly speaking words without knowledge (to their shame).
                 
                Having done the leg work necessary to acquire...
                • the MANY treatises on Antichrist that circulated during the 16th and 17th centuries (Turretin, Beard, Bradshaw, Daneau, Deios, Garrett, Gwalther, Jones, Rainolds, Osiander, Sohn, Hall, Zwingli, Becon, Barnes, Downame, Whitaker, Tyndale, Luther, etc),
                • as well as the NUMEROUS commentaries on the Revelation from the same era (Holland, Fulke, Pareus, Newton, Brightman, Mede, Junius, More, Durham, Dent, Cotton, Perkins, Cartwright, Bale),
                • not to mention the 16th & 17th century commentaries on 2 Thessalonians (Tymme, Fergusson, Squire, Jewel, Manton, Bullinger, Fulke, and Cartwright), 
                ....I find it simply INCREDIBLE that so many, many "reformed" brethren could even muster up the THOUGHT that antichrist was a non-issue...let alone making those ignorant thoughts PUBLIC!  How can such a vast library be missed?
                 
                Sadly, multitudes who name the name of Christ have absolutely no idea that the testimony of the saints of the last 7+ centuries has been preserved for us in various forms....all of which points the true Church of God to the identity of the man of sin and his harlot Church -- Mystery Babylon.  These treasures are crassly cast aside and ignored by the intellectuals among us -- relegated to the "works of men" bin. 
                 
                Today's professing apostate Christian thinks it more "godly" to shout "give me the Bible and nothing else," than to examine the writings of our departed brethren, to see what they believed and WHY.   Some of these pretenders then get positions in their local churches TEACHING others the false "truths" they received of the Spirit, while studying their Bible and nothing else.   Then comes the day when one of his students asks him about the identity of the antichrist.  The teacher, proud of the fact that he has his Bible and nothing else, proudly proclaims,
                 
                "Why, we obviously can't know who he is, until he's revealed after the rapture!"     
                 
                But, says the student, the historic Church over the course of the last 7 centuries, with one voice, has proclaimed that the Pope of Rome is the Antichrist. 
                 
                "Well," says the teacher, "they were just men.  You shouldn't put much stock in their commentaries and other writings.  The Bible alone will give you the answers, through the guidance of the Holy Spirit." 
                 
                Well, says the student, first of all, aren't YOU a man? 
                 
                Secondly, if the Holy Spirit guides us into all truth, and if he has already guided the historic Church of the last 7 centuries into the truth about the Antichrist's identity, and if we now ignore that revelation and await our own, wouldn't we be rejecting the truth? 
                 
                Thirdly, of what use are teachers, preachers, evangelists, pastors, etc, if we aren't to LISTEN TO THEM? 
                 
                 
                 
                Take care,
                Keith 
                 
                 
                ----- Original Message -----
                Sent: 12/1/2004 10:09:29 PM
                Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Site Update

                What I attempted to say below was that I very much enjoyed the website noted by Keith below and am happy to see those important documents yet out there for all to read...for now.
                 
                Ted

                urces are out thre and still readable...for now...
                 
                Ted

                keith dotzler <kdotz@...> wrote:

                Friends,
                 
                Our site has been updated.  
                 
                 
                 
                 
                 
                In Christ,
                Keith Dotzler
                 



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              • keith dotzler
                Friends, The following update can be found on our home page: In Christ, Keith Dotzler http://thebeastunmasked.com
                Message 7 of 14 , May 12, 2005

                   
                  Friends,
                   
                  The following update can be found on our home page:
                   
                   
                   
                   
                   
                  In Christ,
                  Keith Dotzler
                   

                • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
                  Um, it s blank... ;-)
                  Message 8 of 14 , May 12, 2005
                    Um, it's blank...

                    ;-)

                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "keith dotzler"
                    <kdotz@e...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Friends,
                    >
                    > The following update can be found on our home page:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > In Christ,
                    > Keith Dotzler
                    > http://thebeastunmasked.com
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