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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Information Regarding Reformed Churches In America

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  • Ginny Dohms
    Maria, ... while he or she is still alive, this would constitute the an act of adultery. This is the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ. I disagree with you
    Message 1 of 29 , Oct 30, 2004
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      Maria,

      >That is, if a husband or wife divorces their spouse and remarries another
      while he or she is still alive, this would >constitute the an act of
      adultery. This is the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ.

      I disagree with you that this is the teaching of our Lord, but I will answer
      your question anyway.

      >I was wondering if anyone here could tell me if there are any Reformed
      Churches in America/Canada that hold to the >view that remarriage is an act
      of adultery?

      The Protestant Reformed Church holds to this position, but they do not hold
      to the regulative principle of worship - at least the ones here in Canada do
      not. I personally do not know of any church that holds to both positions
      you mention. Those who hold to the regulative principle are usually ones
      who also hold to the standards of the Westminster Confession of Faith, which
      does not support your "remarriage being adultery" position.

      For Christ's Crown and Covenant,

      Ginny
    • Cheryl
      Could we qualify that and say that not every act of marriage is adultery? Some acts of marriage would be considered adultery if there were no lawful grounds
      Message 2 of 29 , Oct 30, 2004
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        Could we qualify that and say that not every act of marriage is adultery?  Some acts of marriage would be considered adultery if there were no lawful grounds of divorce or if one were the guilty party in breaching the marriage covenant.
         
        Cheryl
         
         
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Saturday, October 30, 2004 7:59 AM
        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Information Regarding Reformed Churches In America

        Maria,

        >That is, if a husband or wife divorces their spouse and remarries another
        while he or she is still alive, this would >constitute the an act of
        adultery.  This is the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ.

        I disagree with you that this is the teaching of our Lord, but I will answer
        your question anyway.

        >I was wondering if anyone here could tell me if there are any Reformed
        Churches in America/Canada that hold to the >view that remarriage is an act
        of adultery?

        The Protestant Reformed Church holds to this position, but they do not hold
        to the regulative principle of worship - at least the ones here in Canada do
        not.  I personally do not know of any church that holds to both positions
        you mention.  Those who hold to the regulative principle are usually ones
        who also hold to the standards of the Westminster Confession of Faith, which
        does not support your "remarriage being adultery" position.

        For Christ's Crown and Covenant,

        Ginny



      • Peter
        Wait, didnt the PRC split from the Christian Reformed Church partially b/c the CRC didnt practice EP. I m pretty sure the PRC believes in the RPW, could be
        Message 3 of 29 , Oct 30, 2004
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          Wait, didnt the PRC split from the Christian Reformed Church
          partially b/c the CRC didnt practice EP. I'm pretty sure the PRC
          believes in the RPW, could be wrong though.

          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Ginny Dohms"
          <gdawn@w...> wrote:
          > Maria,
          >
          > >That is, if a husband or wife divorces their spouse and remarries
          another
          > while he or she is still alive, this would >constitute the an act
          of
          > adultery. This is the teaching of our Lord Jesus Christ.
          >
          > I disagree with you that this is the teaching of our Lord, but I
          will answer
          > your question anyway.
          >
          > >I was wondering if anyone here could tell me if there are any
          Reformed
          > Churches in America/Canada that hold to the >view that remarriage
          is an act
          > of adultery?
          >
          > The Protestant Reformed Church holds to this position, but they do
          not hold
          > to the regulative principle of worship - at least the ones here in
          Canada do
          > not. I personally do not know of any church that holds to both
          positions
          > you mention. Those who hold to the regulative principle are
          usually ones
          > who also hold to the standards of the Westminster Confession of
          Faith, which
          > does not support your "remarriage being adultery" position.
          >
          > For Christ's Crown and Covenant,
          >
          > Ginny
        • Ginny Dohms
          ... They are not RPWers, as they use instruments in the public worship service as cited on the unofficial home page of the Protestant Reformed Church in
          Message 4 of 29 , Oct 30, 2004
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            > Wait, didnt the PRC split from the Christian Reformed Church
            > partially b/c the CRC didnt practice EP. I'm pretty sure the PRC
            > believes in the RPW, could be wrong though.

            They are not RPWers, as they use instruments in the public worship service
            as cited on the unofficial home page of the Protestant Reformed Church in
            America:

            http://www.prca.org/prc.html

            which states, and I quote,

            "In their public worship on the Sabbath, these churches sing only the Psalms
            (with organ accompaniment) in keeping with article 69 of the Church Order
            adopted for the Reformed Churches by the Synod of Dordt (1618-1619). "

            Ginny
          • Peter
            OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven t completely applied the principle. ... service ... Church in ... the Psalms ... Church Order ...
            Message 5 of 29 , Oct 30, 2004
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              OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven't
              completely applied the principle.

              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Ginny Dohms"
              <gdawn@w...> wrote:
              > > Wait, didnt the PRC split from the Christian Reformed Church
              > > partially b/c the CRC didnt practice EP. I'm pretty sure the PRC
              > > believes in the RPW, could be wrong though.
              >
              > They are not RPWers, as they use instruments in the public worship
              service
              > as cited on the unofficial home page of the Protestant Reformed
              Church in
              > America:
              >
              > http://www.prca.org/prc.html
              >
              > which states, and I quote,
              >
              > "In their public worship on the Sabbath, these churches sing only
              the Psalms
              > (with organ accompaniment) in keeping with article 69 of the
              Church Order
              > adopted for the Reformed Churches by the Synod of Dordt (1618-
              1619). "
              >
              > Ginny
            • Ginny Dohms
              ... What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it like that before. Sounds like almost pregnant . :-) Ginny
              Message 6 of 29 , Oct 30, 2004
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                > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven't
                > completely applied the principle.

                What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it like that before.
                Sounds like "almost pregnant". :-)

                Ginny
              • Ginny Dohms
                ... Peter: In addition to instruments, they also practice holydays. It is not only allowed but commanded: http://www.prca.org/church_order.html#doctrines
                Message 7 of 29 , Oct 30, 2004
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                  > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven't
                  > completely applied the principle.

                  Peter:

                  In addition to instruments, they also practice holydays. It is not only
                  allowed but commanded:

                  http://www.prca.org/church_order.html#doctrines

                  "Article 67
                  The Churches shall observe, in addition to the Sunday, also Christmas, Good
                  Friday, Easter, Ascension Day, Pentecost, the Day of Prayer, the National
                  Thanksgiving Day, and Old and New Year's Day."

                  Also they do not only sing the Psalms as stated here:

                  "Article 69
                  In the Churches only the 150 Psalms of David, the Ten Commandments, the
                  Lord's Prayer, the Twelve Articles of Faith, the Songs of Mary, Zacharias
                  and Simeon, the Morning and Evening Hymns, and the Hymn of Prayer before the
                  sermon shall be sung. "

                  So I am now wondering what part of the RPW they faithfully actually hold to.

                  Ginny
                • Peter
                  Ginny, I dont know very much about the PRC, they may infact not believe in the RPW, but just because they deny some of the implications doesnt mean they deny
                  Message 8 of 29 , Oct 30, 2004
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                    Ginny,
                    I dont know very much about the PRC, they may infact not believe in
                    the RPW, but just because they deny some of the implications doesnt
                    mean they deny the principle. I.E. They believe worship must be
                    instituted by God, but they see language in the Psalms (33, 57, 150)
                    and the organization of temple music in 1&2 Chron. as a command for
                    musical instruments (what you and I would recognize as hyperbole or
                    shadows of the law).

                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Ginny Dohms"
                    <gdawn@w...> wrote:
                    > > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven't
                    > > completely applied the principle.
                    >
                    > What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it like
                    that before.
                    > Sounds like "almost pregnant". :-)
                    >
                    > Ginny
                  • gmw
                    The difference, as I see it, is that some affirm the regulative principle, and yet do not consistently apply it. There are some guys in the RPCNA, the OPC,
                    Message 9 of 29 , Oct 30, 2004
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                      The difference, as I see it, is that some affirm the regulative
                      principle, and yet do not consistently apply it. There are some guys in
                      the RPCNA, the OPC, and other denominations which affirm the regulative
                      principle, though their practices are at time inconsistent with them.

                      gmw.

                      Ginny Dohms wrote:

                      > > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven't
                      > > completely applied the principle.
                      >
                      > What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it like that
                      > before.
                      > Sounds like "almost pregnant". :-)
                      >
                      > Ginny
                      >
                      >
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                    • Peter
                      That s the way I see it too. ... guys in ... regulative ... them. ... that ...
                      Message 10 of 29 , Oct 30, 2004
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                        That's the way I see it too.

                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                        <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                        > The difference, as I see it, is that some affirm the regulative
                        > principle, and yet do not consistently apply it. There are some
                        guys in
                        > the RPCNA, the OPC, and other denominations which affirm the
                        regulative
                        > principle, though their practices are at time inconsistent with
                        them.
                        >
                        > gmw.
                        >
                        > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                        >
                        > > > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven't
                        > > > completely applied the principle.
                        > >
                        > > What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it like
                        that
                        > > before.
                        > > Sounds like "almost pregnant". :-)
                        > >
                        > > Ginny
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
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                      • toratora1649
                        I appreciate the comments about how the OPC, etc., do not consistently practice the RPW, though they affirm it. However, I certainly think the RPCNA both
                        Message 11 of 29 , Oct 30, 2004
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                          I appreciate the comments about how the OPC, etc., do not
                          consistently practice the RPW, though they affirm it. However, I
                          certainly think the RPCNA both affirms, and consistently practices,
                          the RPW. The RPCNA sings the 150 inspired Psalms, to the exclusion of
                          everything else, and it does not use musical instruments in public
                          worship.

                          I appreciate the contrasts some of us want to point out between the
                          RPCNA and their own churches, like the Reformed Presbytery. But we
                          ought not to portray those differences as greater than they really
                          are. If the RPCNA is inconsistent, please tell us so, but describe
                          the specific inconsistency.

                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                          <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                          > The difference, as I see it, is that some affirm the regulative
                          > principle, and yet do not consistently apply it. There are some
                          guys in
                          > the RPCNA, the OPC, and other denominations which affirm the
                          regulative
                          > principle, though their practices are at time inconsistent with
                          them.
                          >
                          > gmw.
                          >
                          > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                          >
                          > > > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven't
                          > > > completely applied the principle.
                          > >
                          > > What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it like
                          that
                          > > before.
                          > > Sounds like "almost pregnant". :-)
                          > >
                          > > Ginny
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                          > > ADVERTISEMENT
                          > >
                          > > *It is better to give¿*
                          > > · Especially when giving to a child in poverty.
                          > >
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                        • gmw
                          Tora, I do apoligize if what I said turns out to be out of line. I have never walked into an RPCNA Church (though I ve visited the Seminary in Pittsburg, and
                          Message 12 of 29 , Oct 31, 2004
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                            Tora,

                            I do apoligize if what I said turns out to be out of line. I have
                            never walked into an RPCNA Church (though I've visited the Seminary in
                            Pittsburg, and had a good time). But I do have friends who have been
                            members of the RPCNA, or who have worshipped in RPCNA churches, who
                            tell me of things like "pre-worship worship services" which are
                            designed to allow hymn-singing and even holiday observance to occur,
                            though not part of the "official worship service." Whether or not
                            this actually takes place, I can only trust what I am told -- which
                            information could be wrong, which I am willing to admit could be the
                            case.

                            See also http://geocities.com/armedconventicle/rpcna.html

                            Now I must say this, lest anyone get the wrong idea. I do rejoice in
                            those things wherein the RPCNA has remained steadfast, including their
                            defence of the RPW and Exclusive Psalmody, and I long to see the day
                            when all who call themselves Covenanters work out their differences in
                            a God-honoring way, nay, all who call themselves Christians!

                            gmw.

                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "toratora1649"
                            <toratora1649@y...> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > I appreciate the comments about how the OPC, etc., do not
                            > consistently practice the RPW, though they affirm it. However, I
                            > certainly think the RPCNA both affirms, and consistently practices,
                            > the RPW. The RPCNA sings the 150 inspired Psalms, to the exclusion of
                            > everything else, and it does not use musical instruments in public
                            > worship.
                            >
                            > I appreciate the contrasts some of us want to point out between the
                            > RPCNA and their own churches, like the Reformed Presbytery. But we
                            > ought not to portray those differences as greater than they really
                            > are. If the RPCNA is inconsistent, please tell us so, but describe
                            > the specific inconsistency.
                            >
                          • Dan Fraas
                            ... service ... Church in ... the Psalms ... Order ... 1619). Not all Reformed believers who subscribe to the Regulative Principle agree with the RPNA in all
                            Message 13 of 29 , Nov 1, 2004
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                              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Ginny Dohms"
                              <gdawn@w...> wrote:
                              > > Wait, didnt the PRC split from the Christian Reformed Church
                              > > partially b/c the CRC didnt practice EP. I'm pretty sure the PRC
                              > > believes in the RPW, could be wrong though.
                              >
                              > They are not RPWers, as they use instruments in the public worship
                              service
                              > as cited on the unofficial home page of the Protestant Reformed
                              Church in
                              > America:
                              >
                              > http://www.prca.org/prc.html
                              >
                              > which states, and I quote,
                              >
                              > "In their public worship on the Sabbath, these churches sing only
                              the Psalms
                              > (with organ accompaniment) in keeping with article 69 of the Church
                              Order
                              > adopted for the Reformed Churches by the Synod of Dordt (1618-
                              1619). "

                              Not all Reformed believers who subscribe to the Regulative Principle
                              agree with the RPNA in all the particulars of its application,
                              including extrabiblical hymns, and instrumental accompaniment. There
                              are some very fine Reformed churches which sing extra-biblical hymns
                              and use instrumental accompaniment while teaching the regulative
                              principle of worship. I disagree with such churches on the issues of
                              hymnody and instruments. That is, I take the a capella and EP
                              position. But these are not synonymous with the RPW.

                              For example, there are some churches which use simple instrumental
                              accompaniment, but they do not regard the accompaniment as a part of
                              worship, but only a circumstance to help the congregation carry the
                              tune. It's difficult to get a group of people to sing a capella
                              unless you have a congregation of true singers who know all the
                              tunes.

                              Riley
                            • Dan Fraas
                              ... guys in ... regulative ... them. Some guys? A man who didn t affirm the RPW wouldn t be liscensed or ordained in the OPC, at least in not our presbytery.
                              Message 14 of 29 , Nov 1, 2004
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                                --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                                <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                > The difference, as I see it, is that some affirm the regulative
                                > principle, and yet do not consistently apply it. There are some
                                guys in
                                > the RPCNA, the OPC, and other denominations which affirm the
                                regulative
                                > principle, though their practices are at time inconsistent with
                                them.

                                Some guys? A man who didn't affirm the RPW wouldn't be liscensed or
                                ordained in the OPC, at least in not our presbytery.

                                Riley

                                >
                                > gmw.
                                >
                                > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                                >
                                > > > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven't
                                > > > completely applied the principle.
                                > >
                                > > What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it like
                                that
                                > > before.
                                > > Sounds like "almost pregnant". :-)
                                > >
                                > > Ginny
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                                > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                > >
                                > > *It is better to give¿*
                                > > · Especially when giving to a child in poverty.
                                > >
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                                > >
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                              • Dan Fraas
                                ... of ... I ll give you an example. Most RPCNA churches substitute grape juice for wine in communion. Riley ...
                                Message 15 of 29 , Nov 1, 2004
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                                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "toratora1649"
                                  <toratora1649@y...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I appreciate the comments about how the OPC, etc., do not
                                  > consistently practice the RPW, though they affirm it. However, I
                                  > certainly think the RPCNA both affirms, and consistently practices,
                                  > the RPW. The RPCNA sings the 150 inspired Psalms, to the exclusion
                                  of
                                  > everything else, and it does not use musical instruments in public
                                  > worship.
                                  >
                                  > I appreciate the contrasts some of us want to point out between the
                                  > RPCNA and their own churches, like the Reformed Presbytery. But we
                                  > ought not to portray those differences as greater than they really
                                  > are. If the RPCNA is inconsistent, please tell us so, but describe
                                  > the specific inconsistency.

                                  I'll give you an example. Most RPCNA churches substitute grape juice
                                  for wine in communion.

                                  Riley

                                  >
                                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                                  > <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                  > > The difference, as I see it, is that some affirm the regulative
                                  > > principle, and yet do not consistently apply it. There are some
                                  > guys in
                                  > > the RPCNA, the OPC, and other denominations which affirm the
                                  > regulative
                                  > > principle, though their practices are at time inconsistent with
                                  > them.
                                  > >
                                  > > gmw.
                                  > >
                                  > > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven't
                                  > > > > completely applied the principle.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it like
                                  > that
                                  > > > before.
                                  > > > Sounds like "almost pregnant". :-)
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Ginny
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                                  > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                  > > >
                                  > > > *It is better to give¿*
                                  > > > · Especially when giving to a child in poverty.
                                  > > >
                                  >
                                  <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129kf17mg/M=319077.5535352.6606702.203271
                                  >
                                  0/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1099257716/A=2412409/R=0/SIG=126r8pk66/
                                  > *http://etools.ncol.com/a/levelone/bg_childrenint_yh-
                                  > textad2_192.html>
                                  > > >
                                  > > > · *Click here * to meet a child you can help.
                                  > > >
                                  >
                                  <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129kf17mg/M=319077.5535352.6606702.203271
                                  >
                                  0/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1099257716/A=2412409/R=1/SIG=126r8pk66/
                                  > *http://etools.ncol.com/a/levelone/bg_childrenint_yh-
                                  > textad2_192.html>
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
                                  --
                                  > ------
                                  > > > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                                  > > >
                                  > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                  > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                                  > > >
                                  > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                  > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
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                                • toratora1649
                                  Well, okay, the use of grape juice, instead of wine, in the RPCNA is a good example. (I forgot that one!) But what denomination does not do that, at least
                                  Message 16 of 29 , Nov 1, 2004
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                                    Well, okay, the use of grape juice, instead of wine, in the RPCNA is
                                    a good example. (I forgot that one!) But what denomination does not
                                    do that, at least among some of its churches?


                                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
                                    <fraasrd@y...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "toratora1649"
                                    > <toratora1649@y...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > I appreciate the comments about how the OPC, etc., do not
                                    > > consistently practice the RPW, though they affirm it. However, I
                                    > > certainly think the RPCNA both affirms, and consistently
                                    practices,
                                    > > the RPW. The RPCNA sings the 150 inspired Psalms, to the
                                    exclusion
                                    > of
                                    > > everything else, and it does not use musical instruments in
                                    public
                                    > > worship.
                                    > >
                                    > > I appreciate the contrasts some of us want to point out between
                                    the
                                    > > RPCNA and their own churches, like the Reformed Presbytery. But
                                    we
                                    > > ought not to portray those differences as greater than they
                                    really
                                    > > are. If the RPCNA is inconsistent, please tell us so, but
                                    describe
                                    > > the specific inconsistency.
                                    >
                                    > I'll give you an example. Most RPCNA churches substitute grape
                                    juice
                                    > for wine in communion.
                                    >
                                    > Riley
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                                    > > <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                    > > > The difference, as I see it, is that some affirm the regulative
                                    > > > principle, and yet do not consistently apply it. There are
                                    some
                                    > > guys in
                                    > > > the RPCNA, the OPC, and other denominations which affirm the
                                    > > regulative
                                    > > > principle, though their practices are at time inconsistent with
                                    > > them.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > gmw.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven't
                                    > > > > > completely applied the principle.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it
                                    like
                                    > > that
                                    > > > > before.
                                    > > > > Sounds like "almost pregnant". :-)
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Ginny
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                                    > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > *It is better to give¿*
                                    > > > > · Especially when giving to a child in poverty.
                                    > > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129kf17mg/M=319077.5535352.6606702.203271
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    0/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1099257716/A=2412409/R=0/SIG=126r8pk66/
                                    > > *http://etools.ncol.com/a/levelone/bg_childrenint_yh-
                                    > > textad2_192.html>
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > · *Click here * to meet a child you can help.
                                    > > > >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129kf17mg/M=319077.5535352.6606702.203271
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    0/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1099257716/A=2412409/R=1/SIG=126r8pk66/
                                    > > *http://etools.ncol.com/a/levelone/bg_childrenint_yh-
                                    > > textad2_192.html>
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------
                                    --
                                    > --
                                    > > ------
                                    > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                    > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > > > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                    > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                    > > > >
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                                    > of
                                    > > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                  • toratora1649
                                    How is the substitution of grape juice for wine in the Lord s Supper a violation of the RPW? The Scriptures say the second element in the Supper is the cup ,
                                    Message 17 of 29 , Nov 1, 2004
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      How is the substitution of grape juice for wine in the Lord's Supper
                                      a violation of the RPW? The Scriptures say the second element in the
                                      Supper is "the cup", or "the fruit of the vine", not "wine". How is
                                      the use of grape juice inconsistent with this terminology? (Yes, I
                                      realize the Westminster documents use the word "wine". But my
                                      question is about the Scriptures.)


                                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
                                      <fraasrd@y...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "toratora1649"
                                      > <toratora1649@y...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > I appreciate the comments about how the OPC, etc., do not
                                      > > consistently practice the RPW, though they affirm it. However, I
                                      > > certainly think the RPCNA both affirms, and consistently
                                      practices,
                                      > > the RPW. The RPCNA sings the 150 inspired Psalms, to the
                                      exclusion
                                      > of
                                      > > everything else, and it does not use musical instruments in
                                      public
                                      > > worship.
                                      > >
                                      > > I appreciate the contrasts some of us want to point out between
                                      the
                                      > > RPCNA and their own churches, like the Reformed Presbytery. But
                                      we
                                      > > ought not to portray those differences as greater than they
                                      really
                                      > > are. If the RPCNA is inconsistent, please tell us so, but
                                      describe
                                      > > the specific inconsistency.
                                      >
                                      > I'll give you an example. Most RPCNA churches substitute grape
                                      juice
                                      > for wine in communion.
                                      >
                                      > Riley
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                                      > > <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                      > > > The difference, as I see it, is that some affirm the regulative
                                      > > > principle, and yet do not consistently apply it. There are
                                      some
                                      > > guys in
                                      > > > the RPCNA, the OPC, and other denominations which affirm the
                                      > > regulative
                                      > > > principle, though their practices are at time inconsistent with
                                      > > them.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > gmw.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > > > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven't
                                      > > > > > completely applied the principle.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it
                                      like
                                      > > that
                                      > > > > before.
                                      > > > > Sounds like "almost pregnant". :-)
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Ginny
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                                      > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > *It is better to give¿*
                                      > > > > · Especially when giving to a child in poverty.
                                      > > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129kf17mg/M=319077.5535352.6606702.203271
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      0/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1099257716/A=2412409/R=0/SIG=126r8pk66/
                                      > > *http://etools.ncol.com/a/levelone/bg_childrenint_yh-
                                      > > textad2_192.html>
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > · *Click here * to meet a child you can help.
                                      > > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129kf17mg/M=319077.5535352.6606702.203271
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      0/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1099257716/A=2412409/R=1/SIG=126r8pk66/
                                      > > *http://etools.ncol.com/a/levelone/bg_childrenint_yh-
                                      > > textad2_192.html>
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------
                                      --
                                      > --
                                      > > ------
                                      > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                      > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                      > > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                      > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                      Terms
                                      > of
                                      > > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                    • Maria
                                      Hello, could you please tell me what the practice of EP means? Marie ... From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com Date: 10/31/04 08:10:05 To:
                                      Message 18 of 29 , Nov 1, 2004
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                                        Hello,
                                              could you please tell me what the practice of EP means?
                                         
                                        Marie
                                         
                                        -------Original Message-------
                                         
                                        Date: 10/31/04 08:10:05
                                        Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Information Regarding Reformed Churches In America
                                         
                                        > Wait, didnt the PRC split from the Christian Reformed Church
                                        > partially b/c the CRC didnt practice EP. I'm pretty sure the PRC
                                        > believes in the RPW, could be wrong though.
                                         
                                        They are not RPWers, as they use instruments in the public worship service
                                        as cited on the unofficial home page of the Protestant Reformed Church in
                                        America:
                                         
                                         
                                        which states, and I quote,
                                         
                                        "In their public worship on the Sabbath, these churches sing only the Psalms
                                        (with organ accompaniment) in keeping with article 69 of the Church Order
                                        adopted for the Reformed Churches by the Synod of Dordt (1618-1619). "
                                         
                                        Ginny
                                         
                                         
                                         
                                         
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                                      • gmw
                                        EP= Exclusive Psalmody, the use of only the God-inspired Psalter as our worship songs. gmw. ... service ... Church in ... the Psalms ... Order
                                        Message 19 of 29 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                          EP= Exclusive Psalmody, the use of only the God-inspired Psalter as
                                          our worship songs.

                                          gmw.

                                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Maria"
                                          <andrew_clements@h...> wrote:
                                          > Hello,
                                          > could you please tell me what the practice of EP means?
                                          >
                                          > Marie
                                          >
                                          > -------Original Message-------
                                          >
                                          > From: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Date: 10/31/04 08:10:05
                                          > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Information Regarding Reformed
                                          > Churches In America
                                          >
                                          > > Wait, didnt the PRC split from the Christian Reformed Church
                                          > > partially b/c the CRC didnt practice EP. I'm pretty sure the PRC
                                          > > believes in the RPW, could be wrong though.
                                          >
                                          > They are not RPWers, as they use instruments in the public worship
                                          service
                                          > as cited on the unofficial home page of the Protestant Reformed
                                          Church in
                                          > America:
                                          >
                                          > http://www.prca.org/prc.html
                                          >
                                          > which states, and I quote,
                                          >
                                          > "In their public worship on the Sabbath, these churches sing only
                                          the Psalms
                                          > (with organ accompaniment) in keeping with article 69 of the Church
                                          Order
                                          > adopted for the Reformed Churches by the Synod of Dordt (1618-1619). "
                                          >
                                          > Ginny
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        • Glenn Ferrell
                                          EP means Exclusive Psalmody in the sung praise of the public worship of God. Glenn ... EP means Exclusive Psalmody in the sung praise of the public worship
                                          Message 20 of 29 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                            EP means "Exclusive Psalmody" in the sung praise of the public worship of God.

                                            Glenn

                                            Maria wrote:
                                            Hello,
                                                  could you please tell me what the practice of EP means?
                                             
                                            Marie
                                             
                                            -------Original Message-------
                                             
                                            Date: 10/31/04 08:10:05
                                            Subject: Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Information Regarding Reformed Churches In America
                                             
                                            > Wait, didnt the PRC split from the Christian Reformed Church
                                            > partially b/c the CRC didnt practice EP. I'm pretty sure the PRC
                                            > believes in the RPW, could be wrong though.
                                             
                                            They are not RPWers, as they use instruments in the public worship service
                                            as cited on the unofficial home page of the Protestant Reformed Church in
                                            America:
                                             
                                             
                                            which states, and I quote,
                                             
                                            "In their public worship on the Sabbath, these churches sing only the Psalms
                                            (with organ accompaniment) in keeping with article 69 of the Church Order
                                            adopted for the Reformed Churches by the Synod of Dordt (1618-1619). "
                                             
                                            Ginny
                                             
                                             
                                             
                                             
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                                          • gmw
                                            Is the Popish use of spit, cream, and oil in baptism a violation of the Regulative Principle? Why, or why not? gmw.
                                            Message 21 of 29 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                              Is the Popish use of spit, cream, and oil in baptism a violation of the
                                              Regulative Principle? Why, or why not?

                                              gmw.

                                              toratora1649 wrote:

                                              >
                                              >
                                              > How is the substitution of grape juice for wine in the Lord's Supper
                                              > a violation of the RPW? The Scriptures say the second element in the
                                              > Supper is "the cup", or "the fruit of the vine", not "wine". How is
                                              > the use of grape juice inconsistent with this terminology? (Yes, I
                                              > realize the Westminster documents use the word "wine". But my
                                              > question is about the Scriptures.)
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
                                              > <fraasrd@y...> wrote:
                                              > >
                                              > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "toratora1649"
                                              > > <toratora1649@y...> wrote:
                                              > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I appreciate the comments about how the OPC, etc., do not
                                              > > > consistently practice the RPW, though they affirm it. However, I
                                              > > > certainly think the RPCNA both affirms, and consistently
                                              > practices,
                                              > > > the RPW. The RPCNA sings the 150 inspired Psalms, to the
                                              > exclusion
                                              > > of
                                              > > > everything else, and it does not use musical instruments in
                                              > public
                                              > > > worship.
                                              > > >
                                              > > > I appreciate the contrasts some of us want to point out between
                                              > the
                                              > > > RPCNA and their own churches, like the Reformed Presbytery. But
                                              > we
                                              > > > ought not to portray those differences as greater than they
                                              > really
                                              > > > are. If the RPCNA is inconsistent, please tell us so, but
                                              > describe
                                              > > > the specific inconsistency.
                                              > >
                                              > > I'll give you an example. Most RPCNA churches substitute grape
                                              > juice
                                              > > for wine in communion.
                                              > >
                                              > > Riley
                                              > >
                                              > > >
                                              > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                                              > > > <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                              > > > > The difference, as I see it, is that some affirm the regulative
                                              > > > > principle, and yet do not consistently apply it. There are
                                              > some
                                              > > > guys in
                                              > > > > the RPCNA, the OPC, and other denominations which affirm the
                                              > > > regulative
                                              > > > > principle, though their practices are at time inconsistent with
                                              > > > them.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > gmw.
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                                              > > > >
                                              > > > > > > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven't
                                              > > > > > > completely applied the principle.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it
                                              > like
                                              > > > that
                                              > > > > > before.
                                              > > > > > Sounds like "almost pregnant". :-)
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > Ginny
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                                              > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > *It is better to give¿*
                                              > > > > > · Especially when giving to a child in poverty.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129kf17mg/M=319077.5535352.6606702.203271
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > 0/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1099257716/A=2412409/R=0/SIG=126r8pk66/
                                              > > > *http://etools.ncol.com/a/levelone/bg_childrenint_yh-
                                              > > > textad2_192.html>
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > · *Click here * to meet a child you can help.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129kf17mg/M=319077.5535352.6606702.203271
                                              > > >
                                              > >
                                              > 0/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1099257716/A=2412409/R=1/SIG=126r8pk66/
                                              > > > *http://etools.ncol.com/a/levelone/bg_childrenint_yh-
                                              > > > textad2_192.html>
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > --------------------------------------------------------------
                                              > --
                                              > > --
                                              > > > ------
                                              > > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                              > > > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                              > > > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                              > > > > > <mailto:covenantedreformationclub-
                                              > > > unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com?subject=Unsubscribe>
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > > * Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                              > Terms
                                              > > of
                                              > > > > > Service <http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/>.
                                              > > > > >
                                              > > > > >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >
                                              > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
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                                              >
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                                              >
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                                            • gmw
                                              Be assured, the RPCNA remains one of the most conservative denominations out there, especially in matters of worship. I don t think anyone is wanting to beat
                                              Message 22 of 29 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                                Be assured, the RPCNA remains one of the most conservative denominations
                                                out there, especially in matters of worship. I don't think anyone is
                                                wanting to beat up on them in regards to this topic. The question was
                                                not why the RPCNA is worse than other denominations, but in what way
                                                might the RPCNA demonstrate inconsistancy between a profession of the
                                                RPW and actual practice. Believe me, the RPCNA is way better off in
                                                this area than are most Churches out there.

                                                gmw.

                                                toratora1649 wrote:

                                                >
                                                >
                                                > Well, okay, the use of grape juice, instead of wine, in the RPCNA is
                                                > a good example. (I forgot that one!) But what denomination does not
                                                > do that, at least among some of its churches?
                                                >
                                                >
                                                > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
                                                > <fraasrd@y...> wrote:
                                                > >
                                                > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "toratora1649"
                                                > > <toratora1649@y...> wrote:
                                                > > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I appreciate the comments about how the OPC, etc., do not
                                                > > > consistently practice the RPW, though they affirm it. However, I
                                                > > > certainly think the RPCNA both affirms, and consistently
                                                > practices,
                                                > > > the RPW. The RPCNA sings the 150 inspired Psalms, to the
                                                > exclusion
                                                > > of
                                                > > > everything else, and it does not use musical instruments in
                                                > public
                                                > > > worship.
                                                > > >
                                                > > > I appreciate the contrasts some of us want to point out between
                                                > the
                                                > > > RPCNA and their own churches, like the Reformed Presbytery. But
                                                > we
                                                > > > ought not to portray those differences as greater than they
                                                > really
                                                > > > are. If the RPCNA is inconsistent, please tell us so, but
                                                > describe
                                                > > > the specific inconsistency.
                                                > >
                                                > > I'll give you an example. Most RPCNA churches substitute grape
                                                > juice
                                                > > for wine in communion.
                                                > >
                                                > > Riley
                                                > >
                                                > > >
                                                > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                                                > > > <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                                > > > > The difference, as I see it, is that some affirm the regulative
                                                > > > > principle, and yet do not consistently apply it. There are
                                                > some
                                                > > > guys in
                                                > > > > the RPCNA, the OPC, and other denominations which affirm the
                                                > > > regulative
                                                > > > > principle, though their practices are at time inconsistent with
                                                > > > them.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > gmw.
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                                                > > > >
                                                > > > > > > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just haven't
                                                > > > > > > completely applied the principle.
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it
                                                > like
                                                > > > that
                                                > > > > > before.
                                                > > > > > Sounds like "almost pregnant". :-)
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > Ginny
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > >
                                                > > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
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                                              • Dan Fraas
                                                ... is ... In the OPC I think we only have a few churches which substitute grape juice for wine in communion. A few congregations have kept some old leftover
                                                Message 23 of 29 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                                  --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "toratora1649"
                                                  <toratora1649@y...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > Well, okay, the use of grape juice, instead of wine, in the RPCNA
                                                  is
                                                  > a good example. (I forgot that one!) But what denomination does not
                                                  > do that, at least among some of its churches?

                                                  In the OPC I think we only have a few churches which substitute grape
                                                  juice for wine in communion. A few congregations have kept some old
                                                  leftover traditions from when they were part of the PCUSA. But
                                                  sources say this may come to a head soon in our G. A. and those
                                                  handful of congregations using grape juice will be forced to view it
                                                  as a confessional issue.

                                                  Riley

                                                  >
                                                  >
                                                  > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
                                                  > <fraasrd@y...> wrote:
                                                  > >
                                                  > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "toratora1649"
                                                  > > <toratora1649@y...> wrote:
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I appreciate the comments about how the OPC, etc., do not
                                                  > > > consistently practice the RPW, though they affirm it. However,
                                                  I
                                                  > > > certainly think the RPCNA both affirms, and consistently
                                                  > practices,
                                                  > > > the RPW. The RPCNA sings the 150 inspired Psalms, to the
                                                  > exclusion
                                                  > > of
                                                  > > > everything else, and it does not use musical instruments in
                                                  > public
                                                  > > > worship.
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > I appreciate the contrasts some of us want to point out between
                                                  > the
                                                  > > > RPCNA and their own churches, like the Reformed Presbytery. But
                                                  > we
                                                  > > > ought not to portray those differences as greater than they
                                                  > really
                                                  > > > are. If the RPCNA is inconsistent, please tell us so, but
                                                  > describe
                                                  > > > the specific inconsistency.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > I'll give you an example. Most RPCNA churches substitute grape
                                                  > juice
                                                  > > for wine in communion.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Riley
                                                  > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                                                  > > > <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                                  > > > > The difference, as I see it, is that some affirm the
                                                  regulative
                                                  > > > > principle, and yet do not consistently apply it. There are
                                                  > some
                                                  > > > guys in
                                                  > > > > the RPCNA, the OPC, and other denominations which affirm the
                                                  > > > regulative
                                                  > > > > principle, though their practices are at time inconsistent
                                                  with
                                                  > > > them.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > gmw.
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                                                  > > > >
                                                  > > > > > > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just
                                                  haven't
                                                  > > > > > > completely applied the principle.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it
                                                  > like
                                                  > > > that
                                                  > > > > > before.
                                                  > > > > > Sounds like "almost pregnant". :-)
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > Ginny
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                                                  > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > *It is better to give¿*
                                                  > > > > > · Especially when giving to a child in poverty.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129kf17mg/M=319077.5535352.6606702.203271
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  0/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1099257716/A=2412409/R=0/SIG=126r8pk66/
                                                  > > > *http://etools.ncol.com/a/levelone/bg_childrenint_yh-
                                                  > > > textad2_192.html>
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > · *Click here * to meet a child you can help.
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129kf17mg/M=319077.5535352.6606702.203271
                                                  > > >
                                                  > >
                                                  >
                                                  0/D=groups/S=1706113926:HM/EXP=1099257716/A=2412409/R=1/SIG=126r8pk66/
                                                  > > > *http://etools.ncol.com/a/levelone/bg_childrenint_yh-
                                                  > > > textad2_192.html>
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
                                                  --
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                                                  > > --
                                                  > > > ------
                                                  > > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Links*
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/covenantedreformationclub/
                                                  > > > > >
                                                  > > > > > * To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                                  > > > > > covenantedreformationclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                                • toratora1649
                                                  I am not sure that s an answer to my question. (Questions are usually not answers.) ... the ... Supper ... the ... is ... However, I ... between ... But ...
                                                  Message 24 of 29 , Nov 2, 2004
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                                                    I am not sure that's an answer to my question. (Questions are usually
                                                    not answers.)

                                                    --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                                                    <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                                    > Is the Popish use of spit, cream, and oil in baptism a violation of
                                                    the
                                                    > Regulative Principle? Why, or why not?
                                                    >
                                                    > gmw.
                                                    >
                                                    > toratora1649 wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > How is the substitution of grape juice for wine in the Lord's
                                                    Supper
                                                    > > a violation of the RPW? The Scriptures say the second element in
                                                    the
                                                    > > Supper is "the cup", or "the fruit of the vine", not "wine". How
                                                    is
                                                    > > the use of grape juice inconsistent with this terminology? (Yes, I
                                                    > > realize the Westminster documents use the word "wine". But my
                                                    > > question is about the Scriptures.)
                                                    > >
                                                    > >
                                                    > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Dan Fraas"
                                                    > > <fraasrd@y...> wrote:
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "toratora1649"
                                                    > > > <toratora1649@y...> wrote:
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > I appreciate the comments about how the OPC, etc., do not
                                                    > > > > consistently practice the RPW, though they affirm it.
                                                    However, I
                                                    > > > > certainly think the RPCNA both affirms, and consistently
                                                    > > practices,
                                                    > > > > the RPW. The RPCNA sings the 150 inspired Psalms, to the
                                                    > > exclusion
                                                    > > > of
                                                    > > > > everything else, and it does not use musical instruments in
                                                    > > public
                                                    > > > > worship.
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > I appreciate the contrasts some of us want to point out
                                                    between
                                                    > > the
                                                    > > > > RPCNA and their own churches, like the Reformed Presbytery.
                                                    But
                                                    > > we
                                                    > > > > ought not to portray those differences as greater than they
                                                    > > really
                                                    > > > > are. If the RPCNA is inconsistent, please tell us so, but
                                                    > > describe
                                                    > > > > the specific inconsistency.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > I'll give you an example. Most RPCNA churches substitute grape
                                                    > > juice
                                                    > > > for wine in communion.
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > Riley
                                                    > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, gmw
                                                    > > > > <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
                                                    > > > > > The difference, as I see it, is that some affirm the
                                                    regulative
                                                    > > > > > principle, and yet do not consistently apply it. There are
                                                    > > some
                                                    > > > > guys in
                                                    > > > > > the RPCNA, the OPC, and other denominations which affirm the
                                                    > > > > regulative
                                                    > > > > > principle, though their practices are at time inconsistent
                                                    with
                                                    > > > > them.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > gmw.
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > Ginny Dohms wrote:
                                                    > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > > OK. That doesnt mean theyre not RPWers though, just
                                                    haven't
                                                    > > > > > > > completely applied the principle.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > What is the difference? I have never heard anyone put it
                                                    > > like
                                                    > > > > that
                                                    > > > > > > before.
                                                    > > > > > > Sounds like "almost pregnant". :-)
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > Ginny
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > *Yahoo! Groups Sponsor*
                                                    > > > > > > ADVERTISEMENT
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > *It is better to give¿*
                                                    > > > > > > · Especially when giving to a child in poverty.
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > >
                                                    > >
                                                    <http://us.ard.yahoo.com/SIG=129kf17mg/M=319077.5535352.6606702.203271
                                                    > > > >
                                                    > > >
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                                                    > > > > *http://etools.ncol.com/a/levelone/bg_childrenint_yh-
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                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > · *Click here * to meet a child you can help.
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                                                    > > > > *http://etools.ncol.com/a/levelone/bg_childrenint_yh-
                                                    > > > > textad2_192.html>
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > >
                                                    > > > > > > ----------------------------------------------------------
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                                                    > > > > ------
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                                                    > > > > > > * To visit your group on the web, go to:
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                                                  • bob_suden
                                                    ... Greetings all, As one who left the RPCNA for the PRC s and was there for some time before joining what is now the RPNA, GM a few late comments. The PRC
                                                    Message 25 of 29 , Nov 6, 2004
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                                                      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Peter"
                                                      <GrayPJ@c...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Wait, didnt the PRC split from the Christian Reformed Church
                                                      > partially b/c the CRC didnt practice EP. I'm pretty sure the PRC
                                                      > believes in the RPW, could be wrong though.
                                                      >

                                                      Greetings all,

                                                      As one who left the RPCNA for the PRC's and was there for some
                                                      time before joining what is now the RPNA, GM a few late comments.

                                                      The PRC affirm the regulative principle, however inconsistent they
                                                      are in applying it, which is more than can be said for most Reformed
                                                      churches under the Three Forms of Unity, (although it was not the
                                                      cause for their departure from the CRC.) They sing psalms but not
                                                      exclusively, allowing for a few hymns that the Synod of Dordt 1619
                                                      admitted into the Church Order. They observe feast days because they
                                                      argue that the day is but a circumstance of worship, not an element,
                                                      again as allowed by Dordt. (Christmas Keeping and the Reformed Faith
                                                      by David Cason on Pres.Hert. Publ. was a good answer to the argument
                                                      when it resurfaced in the denomination in `95.) Likewise they
                                                      consider musical instruments to be a circumstance of worship, which
                                                      is typical of most reformed churches if they have even heard of the
                                                      RPW at all.

                                                      Unfortunately in `92 in allowing for a cross behind the pulpit,
                                                      the PRC's essentially rewrote/interpreted the Heidelberg on the
                                                      Second Commandment and undercut the RPW in principle, again however
                                                      piecemeal their understanding of it previously. That, as well as
                                                      assaulted, if not overthrew the Protestant doctrine of Scripture and
                                                      replaced it with Rome's, if not Confucious', however long it
                                                      will take to work its way out in practice. The PRC's are after all,
                                                      much more conservative than the CRC in doctrine and temperament.

                                                      And while the PRC's are confused about: 1. the marriage covenant
                                                      - it is not a covenant with God, which by definition is unbreakable,
                                                      but a covenant before God with one's spouse and divorce something that
                                                      may be allowed while hardly being ideal, 2. deny the covenant of
                                                      works - along with Barth and Brunner, hardly 20th century paragons of
                                                      reformed doctrinal rectitude and 3. are hypercovenantalists
                                                      according to Dr. Young's paper on Sherm Isabel's Westminster
                                                      Presbyterian site, they are to be commended for at least not being
                                                      shy or backward about preaching the sovereignty of God in salvation,
                                                      however confused they would be about applying the doctrine in
                                                      worship.

                                                      In this same line, they are also to be commended for republishing
                                                      Calvin's treatises on predestination and providence. One might
                                                      even say that, that title, Calvin's Calvinism, is the creme de'la
                                                      creme on the subject when ReadiWhip rules in most P&R churches. At
                                                      the RPCNA I went to, the best the pastor could do preaching on the
                                                      free offer is studiously avoid mentioning the sovereignty of God as
                                                      that which makes the difference ultimately why one chooses the gospel
                                                      and Christ and one does not. That is, while they might not be able to
                                                      articulate it, the PRC's understand that purity of worship
                                                      without gospel preaching is pretty pathetic, if not meaningless; that
                                                      preaching is not only the chief means of grace (cf. SC 89, LC 155)
                                                      but without it, there is little real desire to maintain any true
                                                      worship, much less ability to worship. That after all, takes faith
                                                      and faith comes by hearing and . . .



                                                      For that matter, never mind the RPCNA, (I won't mention the sermon by
                                                      a RPCNA pastor/professor at a greater Seattle area Reformation
                                                      conference worship service on the Greatest Commandment in
                                                      Scripture:"Ye must be born again."?!) when I was in the PCA, there
                                                      were plenty of men who would affirm the reformed faith in private
                                                      conversation, but not once did you hear anything in the pulpit about
                                                      election, reprobation, etc. (Whatever can be said against catechism
                                                      preaching, at least you heard something about the confessional
                                                      doctrines and distinctives of the reformed faith.) In other words,
                                                      practically speaking as far as I was concerned, neither they nor the
                                                      churches they ministered in were really reformed. Any adherance to
                                                      the Westminster Standards in even their American version was pretty
                                                      much nominal and decidedly less than vocal off the pulpit.

                                                      In other words, John Knox had better call his parole officer. His
                                                      comments in the preface to the treatise on predestination are
                                                      theologically incorrect and not at all approved for contemporary
                                                      congregational consumption. He will need to apologize for and eat
                                                      them at the first possible opportunity:

                                                      But yet I say, that the doctrine of God's eternal predestination
                                                      is so necessary to the church of God, that, without the same, faith
                                                      can neither be truly taught, neither surely established; man can
                                                      never be brought to true humility and knowledge of himself; neither
                                                      yet can he be ravished in admiration of God's eternal goodness, and
                                                      so moved to praise as appertains. And therefore we fear not to
                                                      affirm, that so necessary as it is that true faith be established in
                                                      our hearts, that we be brought to unfeigned humility, and that we be
                                                      moved to praise him for his free graces received; so necessary also
                                                      is the doctrine of God's eternal predestination. For first, there is
                                                      no way more proper to build and establish faith, than when we hear
                                                      and undoubtedly do believe that our election (which the Spirit of God
                                                      does seal in our hearts) consists not in ourselves, but in the
                                                      eternal and immutable good pleasure of God: and that in such firmness
                                                      that it cannot be overthrown, neither by the raging storms of the
                                                      world, nor by the assaults of Satan; neither yet by the wavering and
                                                      weakness of our own flesh. Then only is our salvation in assurance,
                                                      when we find the cause of the same in the bosom and counsel of God.
                                                      For so do we by faith apprehend life and peace manifested in Christ
                                                      Jesus, that by the direction and guiding of the same faith we look
                                                      further: to wit, out of what fountain life does proceed. . . . . .

                                                      However "pure" the worship in the RPCNA, unfortunately I
                                                      never heard anything like that off the pulpit. The pre eminence and
                                                      purity of the preaching should not get short shift and take second
                                                      place due to some supposed concern for the purity of "worship" which
                                                      ignores the preaching, rather than including it as the WCF 21:5 does.

                                                      cordially in Christ
                                                      Bob Suden
                                                      Lynden, Wa.
                                                      RPNA,GM
                                                    • Theodore Letis
                                                      Bob, what you wrote was very helpful in seeing the differences between these groups. Ted ... Greetings all, As one who left the RPCNA for the PRC s and was
                                                      Message 26 of 29 , Nov 12, 2004
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Bob, what you wrote was very helpful in seeing the differences between these groups.
                                                         
                                                        Ted

                                                        bob_suden <bsuden@...> wrote:

                                                        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Peter"
                                                        <GrayPJ@c...> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Wait, didnt the PRC split from the Christian Reformed Church
                                                        > partially b/c the CRC didnt practice EP. I'm pretty sure the PRC
                                                        > believes in the RPW, could be wrong though.
                                                        >

                                                        Greetings all,

                                                        As one who left the RPCNA for the PRC's and was there for some
                                                        time before joining what is now the RPNA, GM a few late comments.

                                                        The PRC affirm the regulative principle, however inconsistent they
                                                        are in applying it, which is more than can be said for most Reformed
                                                        churches under  the Three Forms of Unity, (although it was not the
                                                        cause for their departure from  the CRC.) They sing psalms but not
                                                        exclusively, allowing for a few hymns that the Synod of Dordt 1619
                                                        admitted into the Church Order. They observe feast days because they
                                                        argue that the day is but a circumstance of worship, not an element, 
                                                        again as allowed by Dordt. (Christmas Keeping and the Reformed Faith
                                                        by David Cason on Pres.Hert. Publ. was a good answer to the  argument
                                                        when it resurfaced in the denomination in `95.) Likewise they
                                                        consider musical instruments to be a circumstance of worship, which
                                                        is typical of most reformed churches if they have even heard of the
                                                        RPW at all.

                                                        Unfortunately in `92 in allowing for a cross behind the pulpit,
                                                        the PRC's essentially rewrote/interpreted the Heidelberg on the
                                                        Second Commandment and undercut the RPW in principle, again however
                                                        piecemeal their understanding of it previously. That, as well as
                                                        assaulted, if not overthrew the Protestant doctrine of Scripture and
                                                        replaced it with Rome's, if not Confucious', however long it
                                                        will take to work its way out in practice. The PRC's are after all,
                                                        much more conservative than the CRC in doctrine and temperament.

                                                        And while the PRC's are confused about: 1. the marriage covenant
                                                        - it is not a covenant with God, which by definition is unbreakable,
                                                        but a covenant before God with one's spouse and divorce something that
                                                        may be allowed while hardly being ideal,  2.  deny the covenant of
                                                        works - along with Barth and Brunner, hardly 20th century paragons of
                                                        reformed doctrinal rectitude and 3. are hypercovenantalists 
                                                        according to Dr. Young's paper on Sherm Isabel's Westminster
                                                        Presbyterian site, they are to be commended for at least not being
                                                        shy or backward about preaching the sovereignty of God in salvation,
                                                        however confused they would be about applying the doctrine in
                                                        worship.
                                                             
                                                        In this same line, they are also to be commended for republishing 
                                                        Calvin's treatises on predestination and providence.  One might
                                                        even say that, that title,  Calvin's Calvinism, is the creme de'la
                                                        creme on the subject when ReadiWhip rules in most P&R churches. At
                                                        the RPCNA I went to, the best the pastor could do preaching on the
                                                        free offer is studiously avoid mentioning the sovereignty of God as
                                                        that which makes the difference ultimately why one chooses the gospel
                                                        and Christ and one does not. That is, while they might not be able to
                                                        articulate it, the PRC's understand that purity of worship
                                                        without gospel preaching is pretty pathetic, if not meaningless; that
                                                        preaching is not only the chief means of grace (cf. SC 89, LC 155)
                                                        but without it, there is little real desire to maintain any true 
                                                        worship, much less ability to worship. That after all, takes faith
                                                        and faith comes by hearing and . . .



                                                        For that matter, never mind the RPCNA, (I won't mention the sermon by
                                                        a RPCNA pastor/professor at a greater Seattle area Reformation
                                                        conference worship service on the Greatest Commandment in
                                                        Scripture:"Ye must be born again."?!) when I was in the PCA, there
                                                        were plenty of men who would affirm the reformed faith in private
                                                        conversation, but not once did you hear anything in the pulpit about
                                                        election,  reprobation, etc. (Whatever can be said against catechism
                                                        preaching, at least you heard something about the confessional
                                                        doctrines and distinctives of the reformed faith.) In other words,
                                                        practically speaking as far as I was concerned, neither they nor the
                                                        churches they ministered in were really reformed. Any adherance to
                                                        the  Westminster Standards in even their American version was pretty
                                                        much nominal and decidedly less than vocal off the pulpit.

                                                        In other words, John Knox had better call his parole officer. His
                                                        comments in the preface to the treatise on predestination are
                                                        theologically incorrect and not at all  approved for contemporary
                                                        congregational consumption. He will need to apologize for and eat
                                                        them at the first possible opportunity:

                                                        But yet I say, that the doctrine of God's eternal predestination
                                                        is so necessary to the church of God, that, without the same, faith
                                                        can neither be truly taught, neither surely established; man can
                                                        never be brought to true humility and knowledge of himself; neither
                                                        yet can he be ravished in admiration of God's eternal goodness, and
                                                        so moved to praise as appertains. And therefore we fear not to
                                                        affirm, that so necessary as it is that true faith be established in
                                                        our hearts, that we be brought to unfeigned humility, and that we be
                                                        moved to praise him for his free graces received; so necessary also
                                                        is the doctrine of God's eternal predestination. For first, there is
                                                        no way more proper to build and establish faith, than when we hear
                                                        and undoubtedly do believe that our election (which the Spirit of God
                                                        does seal in our hearts) consists not in ourselves, but in the
                                                        eternal and immutable good pleasure of God: and that in such firmness
                                                        that it cannot be overthrown, neither by the raging storms of the
                                                        world, nor by the assaults of Satan; neither yet by the wavering and
                                                        weakness of our own flesh. Then only is our salvation in assurance,
                                                        when we find the cause of the same in the bosom and counsel of God.
                                                        For so do we by faith apprehend life and peace manifested in Christ
                                                        Jesus, that by the direction and guiding of the same faith we look
                                                        further: to wit, out of what fountain life does proceed. . . . . .

                                                        However "pure" the worship in the RPCNA, unfortunately I
                                                        never heard anything like that off the pulpit. The pre eminence and
                                                        purity of the preaching should not get short shift and take second
                                                        place  due to some supposed concern for the purity of "worship" which
                                                        ignores the preaching, rather than including it as the WCF 21:5 does.

                                                        cordially in Christ
                                                        Bob Suden
                                                        Lynden, Wa.
                                                        RPNA,GM









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                                                      • bob_suden
                                                        ... between these groups. ... Greetings, Ted, Did you get tired of trashing the jesuit version of the energizer bunny on this list or what? Likewise enjoyed
                                                        Message 27 of 29 , Nov 12, 2004
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Theodore Letis
                                                          <bucerian@y...> wrote:
                                                          > Bob, what you wrote was very helpful in seeing the differences
                                                          between these groups.
                                                          >
                                                          Greetings, Ted,

                                                          Did you get tired of trashing the jesuit version of the energizer
                                                          bunny on this list or what?
                                                          Likewise enjoyed your posts on same.
                                                          The typical rc evade, mumble and divert tactics suck in those who
                                                          haven't seen them before, so your efforts were certainly appreciated.
                                                          Bob
                                                        • bob_suden
                                                          The H got left out the first time. ... appreciated.
                                                          Message 28 of 29 , Nov 13, 2004
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            The H got left out the first time.
                                                            --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                                                            <bsuden@j...> wrote:
                                                            >
                                                            > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Theodore Letis
                                                            > <bucerian@y...> wrote:
                                                            > >
                                                            > Greetings, Ted,
                                                            >
                                                            > Did you get tired of tHrashing the jesuit version of the energizer
                                                            > bunny on this list or what?
                                                            > Likewise enjoyed your posts on same.
                                                            > The typical rc evade, mumble and divert tactics suck in those who
                                                            > haven't seen them before, so your efforts were certainly
                                                            appreciated.
                                                            > Bob
                                                          • Theodore Letis
                                                            Just had not got around to this list in a while. Pleased to see, like judas, our friend has now gone to his own place... Ted bob_suden
                                                            Message 29 of 29 , Dec 1, 2004
                                                            • 0 Attachment
                                                              Just had not got around to this list in a while. Pleased to see, like judas, our "friend" has now gone to his own place...
                                                               
                                                              Ted

                                                              bob_suden <bsuden@...> wrote:

                                                              The H got left out the first time.
                                                              --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "bob_suden"
                                                              <bsuden@j...> wrote:
                                                              >
                                                              > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Theodore Letis
                                                              > <bucerian@y...> wrote:
                                                              > > 
                                                              > Greetings, Ted,
                                                              >
                                                              > Did you get tired of tHrashing the jesuit version of the  energizer
                                                              > bunny on this list or what?
                                                              > Likewise enjoyed your posts on same.
                                                              > The typical rc evade, mumble  and divert tactics suck in those who
                                                              > haven't seen them before, so your efforts were certainly
                                                              appreciated.
                                                              > Bob





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