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Covenanting today?

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  • david0684uk
    By request, this is being transferred over from biblehermeneutics... gmw said, 2) The ordainance of national covenanting does indeed have biblical
    Message 1 of 734 , May 22, 2001
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      By request, this is being transferred over from
      biblehermeneutics...<br><br>gmw said,<br>"2) The ordainance of national
      covenanting does indeed have biblical support. Exodus 24:7;
      Deuteronomy 29:10-15; 2 Chronicles 15:1-13; 23:16; 29:1-11;
      34:1-33; Nehemiah 9:38, 10:28, 29; Jonah 3:5-10; Matthew
      28:19; etc."<br><br>I am very satisfied to note that
      after nearly 500 years, we are still waiting for the
      first scriptural proof of covenanting that comes out of
      the pages which deal with the unfolding of God's
      covenant in its global rather than earlier, and
      superceeded national phase.<br><br>Obviously your attempt to
      bring in Matthew 28:19 must be viewed as a somewhat
      spurious attempt to find covenant-making in a commission
      to teach, baptize and then disciple (in that order,
      folks - that *is* relevant!).<br><br>"You may seek to
      avoid this conclusion by suggesting that national
      covenanting passed away with national Israel, but in order to
      do this you would have to show why national
      covenanting was a shadow which passed away, why God suddenly
      isn't a God of covenants, and what standard nations are
      to be measured by."<br><br>National covenanting
      isn't a shadow that's passed away; it's the
      identification of the people of God with a single nation that's
      passed away. The Israelite nation was able to covenant
      with God on the basis that the Israelite nation were
      the people of God, with the boundaries of the two
      being entirely coextensive. This situation will never
      exist in any other nation ever again, therefore it is
      an inescapable fact for *you* to deal with that
      national covenants are not for today.<br><br>Your line
      above is an ingenious attempt to force the burden of
      proof onto me.<br>Let's remind ourselves of some of the
      vast and enormous differences between Israel and any
      modern nation (yup, I've copied-and-pasted from one of
      my other posts elsewhere!):<br><br>1) Israel were
      one nation, chosen out of all the other nations of
      the earth. *No* nation today has been granted this
      status.<br>2) Israel was a theocracy, ruled directly by God via
      His spokespeople. *No* nation today is in such a
      position.<br>3) Israel was a merged church-state; they were
      *identified*; to be born into the nation, was to be born into
      the church; to be expelled from the church was to be
      expelled from the nation (i.e. exterminated via capital
      punishment); no such nation is in this position today.<br>4)
      Israel was the recipient of many special and glorious
      promises from God, none of which apply to today's nations,
      however "Christian".<br>5) Israel was required to be kept
      in particular religious purity, because through it
      Messiah would come. There is no such need in any nation
      today.<br>6) There was no provision made for unbelievers *of
      any type* within the boundaries of Israel; surely not
      even the most radical Reconstructionist would suggest
      this is to be a model for today.<br><br>In the light
      of this *enormous* discontinuity between Israel and
      17th century Britain, the burden of prove is
      *ENTIRELY* upon your position to prove that the fact that
      the relation between any nation and God today is so
      vastly discontinuous, does not affect the basis on which
      a covenant can be made.<br><br>And that my friend,
      in view of the fact that the New Testament has
      nothing even suggesting national covenants and therefore
      no ammunition to support any case that covenants
      continue when the commonwealth ends, is a burden of proof
      you will never be able to carry.<br><br>Your
      buddy,<br>David
    • almo_no1
      prayers are easy gmw, you ve got em.
      Message 734 of 734 , Sep 18, 2001
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        prayers are easy gmw, you've got 'em.
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