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Re: [Covenanted Reformation] Clarification on Cameron

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  • Soles
    Richard was really only a Rev. for a very short time. He was famous at the time for two real good reasons: he was an ardent preacher of the Gospel, and he
    Message 1 of 3 , Aug 3, 2004
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      Richard was really only a Rev. for a very short time. He was famous at the
      time for two real good reasons: he was an ardent preacher of the Gospel, and
      he stood to the liberties taught him and bought for him and his country by
      his predecessors in thinking and preaching that men who were unfaithful to
      their own standards, i.e. ministers, ought not to be heard. Richard came
      late in the game. He came to be known as the kingpin or unofficial
      representative of a viewpoint of civil government that had been long before
      him sworn in covenant by all ranks in the society of the time. The people
      who had held his views predated him. were called society people. There were
      literally thousands upon thousands of them. When the not so glorious
      revolution came, their army of thousands and thousands helped out.
      Richard was not a one man army, even when he died, which was a number of
      years before the said revolution. He was a man who represented the truth
      that many godly men had already given their lives for, and many more did
      subsequently.
      If indeed he was mistaken over the WCF 24, they were as well, many thousands
      upon thousands. Ministers, elders, military men who were keepers of the
      covenant, young girls, old women, etc. Men such as John Brown of Wamphrey
      and McWard in Holland were wrong too. The United Societies people who lived
      on both sides of the Atlantic have been wrong all along. The Reformed
      Presbyterian Church of North America, until it cast away its former
      standards and terms of communion in the 1800's were wrong too. The martyrs
      enemies were correct: the martyrs were dying in vain, just foolishly.
      The odd man may die foolishly, but not thousands upon thousands, not for a
      lie.
      I can't believe they were wrong, nor that one minister can have the whole
      ordeal pinned on him, no I'm sorry I can't.
      To say they were all wrong to tell Ch II what they did through Richie, is
      like trying to argue that Preterism is the rule of prophetic interpretation,
      against the massive evidence otherwise.
      Richard is a hero of mine.

      Grant instead of Cathie
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
      To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 5:57 PM
      Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Clarification on Cameron


      > Rev. Richard Cameron did neither impeach nor depose the king, as if to
      > usurp parliament's perogatives, like that rat Cromwell did. He
      > DISOWNED the king as being a lawful or rightful king.
      >
      > http://www.covenanter.org/CivilGovt/cameronandsanquhar.htm
      >
      > gmw.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
    • jparnellm@usxchange.net
      Grant, I would submit several observations for your consideration: 1. You mention the alternative as being ministers, ought not to be heard . As I have
      Message 2 of 3 , Aug 3, 2004
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        Grant, I would submit several observations for your consideration:

        1. You mention the alternative as being "ministers, ought not to be heard". As
        I have posted before, this is a straw man. John the Baptist was not silent,
        but neither did he say Herod was not the king.

        2. Even Richard Cameron did not take the same position throughout his life and
        ministry that he took at the end of it. This is despite the fact that King
        Charles II was unfaithful starting not long after the assumption of his reign.

        3. Even Christian men can err and their error need correction, as the Apostle
        Paul had to correct the Apostle Peter and many brethren. Charles II
        undoubtedly provoked his children to wrath and revolution. So we should be
        able to sympathize when citizens like Cameron responded the way they did.
        Nevertheless, it was still an improper response.

        4. There were many true Covenanters that did not go as far as Cameron went, on
        the matter of themselves pronouncing Ch II illegitimate, but were persecuted
        because they pointed out the sins of Ch II, and met for worship in conventicles
        during the time of Ch II. They did not adopt Cameron's final position, and when
        the Church of Scotland became Presbyterian again, they joined it.

        - Parnell McCarter


        Quoting Soles <dsranch@...>:

        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Richard was really only a Rev. for a very short time.  He was famous at the
        >
        > time for two real good reasons: he was an ardent preacher of the Gospel, and
        >
        > he stood to the liberties taught him and bought for him and his country by
        >
        > his predecessors in thinking and preaching that men who were unfaithful to
        >
        > their own standards, i.e. ministers, ought not to be heard.  Richard came
        >
        > late in the game.  He came to be known as the kingpin or unofficial
        >
        > representative of a viewpoint of civil government  that had been long before
        >
        > him sworn in covenant by all ranks in the society of the time.  The people
        >
        > who had held his views predated him. were called society people.  There were
        >
        > literally thousands upon thousands of them.  When the not so glorious
        >
        > revolution came,  their army of thousands and thousands helped out.
        >
        > Richard was not a one man army, even when he died, which was a number of
        >
        > years before the said revolution.  He was a man who represented the truth
        >
        > that many godly men had already given their lives for, and many more did
        >
        > subsequently.
        >
        > If indeed he was mistaken over the WCF 24, they were as well, many thousands
        >
        > upon thousands.  Ministers, elders, military men who were keepers of the
        >
        > covenant, young girls, old women, etc.  Men such as John Brown of Wamphrey
        >
        > and McWard in Holland were wrong too.  The United Societies people who lived
        >
        > on both sides of the Atlantic have been wrong all along.  The Reformed
        >
        > Presbyterian Church of North America, until it cast away its former
        >
        > standards and terms of communion  in the 1800's were wrong too. The martyrs
        >
        > enemies were correct:  the martyrs were dying in vain, just foolishly.
        >
        > The odd man may die foolishly, but not thousands upon thousands, not for a
        >
        > lie.
        >
        > I can't  believe they were wrong, nor that one minister can have the whole
        >
        > ordeal pinned on him, no I'm sorry I can't.
        >
        > To say they were all wrong to tell Ch II what they did through Richie, is
        >
        > like trying to argue that Preterism is the rule of prophetic interpretation,
        >
        > against the massive evidence otherwise.
        >
        > Richard is a hero of mine.
        >
        >
        >
        > Grant instead of Cathie
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        >
        > From: "gmw" <raging.calvinist@...>
        >
        > To: <covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com>
        >
        > Sent: Monday, August 02, 2004 5:57 PM
        >
        > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Clarification on Cameron
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > > Rev. Richard Cameron did neither impeach nor depose the king, as if to
        >
        > > usurp parliament's perogatives, like that rat Cromwell did.  He
        >
        > > DISOWNED the king as being a lawful or rightful king.
        >
        > >
        >
        > > http://www.covenanter.org/CivilGovt/cameronandsanquhar.htm
        >
        > >
        >
        > > gmw.
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
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      • getsmitty
        Here is some food for thought (or fuel for the fire). Gary North expanded Section 3 of Political Polytheism. Parnell s comment regarding Jefferson, etc. seems
        Message 3 of 3 , Aug 3, 2004
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          Here is some food for thought (or fuel for the fire). Gary North
          expanded Section 3 of Political Polytheism. Parnell's comment
          regarding Jefferson, etc. seems appropriate: "King George III never
          allowed Romanists to vote in Britain. Can the same be said for
          Washington, Adams, and Jefferson in the USA?"

          Here is the book.

          http://www.demischools.org/philadelphia.pdf

          Steve
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