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  • gmw
    If people lay aside the duty of love till they be all of one mind in all things, they may leave love till they come to heaven, and truly they look unlike
    Message 1 of 3 , Jun 7, 2004
      "If people lay aside the duty of love till they be all of one mind in
      all things, they may leave love till they come to heaven, and truly
      they look unlike them, that ever will be in heaven, that are
      strangers to love when they be on earth. How tenderly does the
      apostle apply himself unto this! Rom. 14.1-5. Rom. 15.1-4. Him that
      is weak in the faith, says he, receive you, but not to doubtful
      disputations. What were those doubtful disputations? These were not
      whether we are justified by Christ, or by good works, or by both
      together; they were about small little things; they were about food,
      some would eat nothing but herbs, and had no liberty to eat flesh;
      there were others that were strong, and they could eat freely
      anything. But, says the apostle, Let not him that eateth, despise him
      that eateth not; that is his weakness; and let not him which eateth
      not, judge him that eateth, for the man walks according to his sight,
      and indeed according to truth. One observes a day, and another not;
      his non-observing is an act of worship to the Lord. How excellently
      does the apostle comment upon these things! The meaning was this, In
      the beginning of Christianity, there was some of the Christians, that
      had been Jews, and were not yet altogether so far reformed from what
      they had professed before, but that they still retained, and were
      fond of their old ceremonies and customs; wherefore the apostle
      exhorts them to bear, with love and tenderness, with all such
      persons. The apostle therefore in some places did tolerate their
      weakness; yet, notwithstanding, when these small things are brought
      in upon an high account, how does he thunder against them! He speaks
      so tenderly to the Romans, to doubtful believers, yet to some that
      would observe days, and abstain from meats, he is as severe, Ye
      observe days, and months, and times, and years, &c. Ye are men that
      are parting from Christ, says he! why so? Because they did place a
      piece of their worship therein, and thought they would render them
      acceptable to God, and therefore brought in these Jewish rites and
      ceremonies into the matter of justification before God. The Lord hath
      not given all his people the same light; we are to be fully persuaded
      in our own minds about our own light: Let every man be fully
      persuaded in his own mind, Rom. 14.5. But that is but an ill sort of
      being persuaded in our own minds that brings this persuasion also,
      that they who are not of our mind, are not right before God."

      -- Robert Traill, "The Duty, Necessity, & Blessing of Christian
      Fellowship."
      http://www.truecovenanter.com/traill/traill_sapf_13.html
    • Edgar A. Ibarra Jr.
      GMW, Great quote! Thanks. Let me ask some questions, not for the sake of polemic or to start a negative type of argument, but in the spirit of what the quote
      Message 2 of 3 , Jun 8, 2004
        GMW,

        Great quote! Thanks. Let me ask some questions, not for the sake
        of polemic or to start a negative type of argument, but in the spirit
        of what the quote was written in and for ( I hope) good discussion
        and helpful dialogue.

        In regards to women clothing and watching certain movies (not the
        nudie ones) but more the action (war) / G thru PG-13 type, would
        these areas, in your opnion and what was quoted, areas of Christian
        liberty or confined to the moral duties of a Christian in that it is
        not up to one's liberty in Christ to determine wheather or not she
        wants to wear pants vs. a long dress (however one determines that
        length) and the watching of movies? What are the principles to
        determine wheather it is up to Christian liberty or of a moral duty
        to do this or not in which one cannot go against it? Akin to the
        observance of the Lord's Day, this is morally binding and not up to
        Christian liberty to keep the entire day holy unto the Lord.

        Please brethren, I seriously would like to know the principles that
        we use to go about in determining either or. Yet, please may we not
        get into bitterness and harshness in discussing this. Hopefully we
        can keep our emotions in check and be temperate.

        Thanks!!!

        Yours,

        Edgar

        --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "gmw"
        <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
        >
        > "If people lay aside the duty of love till they be all of one mind
        in
        > all things, they may leave love till they come to heaven, and truly
        > they look unlike them, that ever will be in heaven, that are
        > strangers to love when they be on earth. How tenderly does the
        > apostle apply himself unto this! Rom. 14.1-5. Rom. 15.1-4. Him that
        > is weak in the faith, says he, receive you, but not to doubtful
        > disputations. What were those doubtful disputations? These were not
        > whether we are justified by Christ, or by good works, or by both
        > together; they were about small little things; they were about
        food,
        > some would eat nothing but herbs, and had no liberty to eat flesh;
        > there were others that were strong, and they could eat freely
        > anything. But, says the apostle, Let not him that eateth, despise
        him
        > that eateth not; that is his weakness; and let not him which eateth
        > not, judge him that eateth, for the man walks according to his
        sight,
        > and indeed according to truth. One observes a day, and another not;
        > his non-observing is an act of worship to the Lord. How excellently
        > does the apostle comment upon these things! The meaning was this,
        In
        > the beginning of Christianity, there was some of the Christians,
        that
        > had been Jews, and were not yet altogether so far reformed from
        what
        > they had professed before, but that they still retained, and were
        > fond of their old ceremonies and customs; wherefore the apostle
        > exhorts them to bear, with love and tenderness, with all such
        > persons. The apostle therefore in some places did tolerate their
        > weakness; yet, notwithstanding, when these small things are brought
        > in upon an high account, how does he thunder against them! He
        speaks
        > so tenderly to the Romans, to doubtful believers, yet to some that
        > would observe days, and abstain from meats, he is as severe, Ye
        > observe days, and months, and times, and years, &c. Ye are men that
        > are parting from Christ, says he! why so? Because they did place a
        > piece of their worship therein, and thought they would render them
        > acceptable to God, and therefore brought in these Jewish rites and
        > ceremonies into the matter of justification before God. The Lord
        hath
        > not given all his people the same light; we are to be fully
        persuaded
        > in our own minds about our own light: Let every man be fully
        > persuaded in his own mind, Rom. 14.5. But that is but an ill sort
        of
        > being persuaded in our own minds that brings this persuasion also,
        > that they who are not of our mind, are not right before God."
        >
        > -- Robert Traill, "The Duty, Necessity, & Blessing of Christian
        > Fellowship."
        > http://www.truecovenanter.com/traill/traill_sapf_13.html
      • gmw
        Edgar, I m glad you appreciate the quote, and that you understood the spirit in which is was posted. I m sorry, but I ll have to decline participating in such
        Message 3 of 3 , Jun 8, 2004
          Edgar,

          I'm glad you appreciate the quote, and that you understood the spirit
          in which is was posted. I'm sorry, but I'll have to decline
          participating in such a discussion in public at this time. In my
          experience, I've found them to be unfruitful, and despite people's
          best efforts, tempers do flame up and nasty things do end up being
          said. Also, I am planning on discussing some of these types of
          issues (though not exactly the way you present them here) with others
          (church officers) privately, and so my comments here may unwittingly
          sabatoge those efforts. If others wish to have a fresh try at calmly
          discussing these issues, I will not stop anyone. But as for me, I
          will say only this... 1. Let us cease to presume each other's
          position. I've found that too many rumors are believed to be truth.
          2. I do not believe "nudie" is the only sin we are forbidden to be
          entertained by. 3. I believe that the Bible does lay down certain
          rules regarding masculine and feminine apparelling which we should
          not be so quick to label "indifferent." Beyond that, I do not care
          to go at this time, in this forum.

          If you want to discuss some things privately, that might be nice.

          raging.calvinist@...

          gmw.
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