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9392[Covenanted Reformation] Re: Covenanting.

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  • Dan Fraas
    Dec 4, 2003
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      Thanks for your answer to my question. On this note, to pose a
      completely different question, please note the following:

      A group (one whole congregation or several congregations) of Reformed
      Christians from uncovenanted Germany emigrate to the United States.
      They are covenanted together to one uniform set of confession and
      catechisms, namely the Three Forms. (Of course these people are
      covenanted together. Almost every church with members requires them
      to covenant in one way or another to submit to the government of the
      church and live godly lives.) Is this transplanted German church
      then obligated to officially and formally approve the British
      Westminster Standards as their standard of doctrine just because they
      are geographically located within the political boundaries of the
      United States? Do they have to go with two official sets of
      standards now? (...having already covenanted together under the Three
      Forms standard) Thought this would make for an interesting question.

      Riley
      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "gmw"
      <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
      >
      > I should also add, that the Westminster Standards ought to be
      adopted
      > formally.
      >
      > gmw.
      >
      > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "gmw"
      > <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
      > > No, I don't believe that would be a violation of the Covenant, so
      > long as there is no rejection (or neglect), in part or in whole, of
      > the Westminster Standards. Samuel Rutherfurd once referred to the
      > Heidelberg as "our catechism." The Heidelberg is a beautiful,
      > pastoral, comforting catechism, and very much a part of our Reformed
      > heritage.
      > >
      > > gmw.
      > > ----- Original Message -----
      > > From: Dan Fraas
      > > To: covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com
      > > Sent: Thursday, December 04, 2003 10:27 AM
      > > Subject: [Covenanted Reformation] Re: Covenanting.
      > >
      > >
      > > So,
      > >
      > > Under the terms of the covenants, is it a covenant violation
      for
      > > churches and families to catechize using the Heidelberg
      Catechism? --
      > > (not in the sense of rejecting the Westminster Catechisms)
      > >
      > > Riley
      > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "gmw"
      > > <raging.calvinist@v...> wrote:
      > > > --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, "Peter"
      > > > <GrayPJ@c...> wrote:
      > > > > Thanks for the help and I'm sorry for being delinquent in
      > > replying
      > > > > to your post.
      > > >
      > > > No problem at all. If I can refresh your memory as well, I
      > > consider
      > > > myself a novice, and believe that others are far more
      qualified to
      > > > comment than myself. But I'll give it my best shot.
      > > >
      > > > > My trouble is finding a connection between Britain and
      present
      > > day
      > > > > America.... Your answers to my objections were sufficient
      so I
      > > will
      > > > > concede- at the time of the signing, the colonies were put
      under
      > > > > the Covenant and up until 100 years ago the people were
      still.
      > > >
      > > > Ok, then I will not endeavor to prove that which has been
      conceded,
      > > > that the American Colonies were under the Covenant when
      originally
      > > > sworn. The article did place much emphasis on the British
      descent
      > > of
      > > > the American people, which is important, but not the only
      point.
      > > The
      > > > Covenant was a national covenant, and an ecclesiastical
      covenant.
      > > > Our view is that America as a nation, and not simply as a
      > > collection
      > > > of folks with English blood, is bound, and will be bound,
      until she
      > > > ceases to exist. Why? Because if, as you concede, America
      was
      > > bound
      > > > up until 100 years ago, then she still is bound, for she is
      still
      > > > America, daughter of England. When it was time to lay the
      > > foundation
      > > > of this nation, and America rejected the establishment of a
      > > Reformed
      > > > and Presbyterian Church, she did so sinfully, for she was
      bound by
      > > > Covenant to do so. Likewise, the Churches in this nation
      which
      > > > refuse to reform themselves according to the agreed upon
      standards,
      > > > are refusing the Covenant as well.
      > > >
      > > > The following are some considerations taken from an article
      on
      > > > Covenanting found here:
      > > > http://www.covenanter.org/RPCNA/testimonyforpubliccov.htm
      > > >
      > > > ---
      > > >
      > > > 1. The Solemn League and Covenant was one vow in which the
      members
      > > of
      > > > the church and citizens of the state were bound inseparably,
      though
      > > > distinctly; and whom any principle of the covenant binds, the
      whole
      > > > binds; because it cannot be divided. "What God hath joined
      > > together,
      > > > let no man put asunder."
      > > >
      > > > 2. As God is one party, the Covenanter who emigrates, is
      after
      > > > emigration, still within the dominions of him "who is King of
      Kings
      > > > and Lord of Lords." Those who have come into the United
      States,
      > > since
      > > > the taking of the covenants, are as really under the kingly
      > > authority
      > > > of Christ, as they were in Great Britain; for he is "the Lord
      of
      > > the
      > > > whole earth."
      > > >
      > > > 3. The covenant of the British empire was renewed by the New-
      > > England
      > > > Puritan Pilgrims, in the year 1644, by which they and all
      their
      > > > descendants became formally bound.
      > > >
      > > > 4. The colonies, at the time of entering into the Solemn
      League and
      > > > Covenant, were an integral part of the British nation. They
      held
      > > > their lands under the crown, and were governed by deputies of
      the
      > > > throne, whom they acknowledged as their governors. The Boston
      > > > renovation, demonstrates that they held themselves bound by
      the
      > > > federal deed of the Lords and Commons, in 1643.
      > > >
      > > > 5. The old Congress of 1774, solemnly claimed for themselves,
      and
      > > for
      > > > the people of the colonies whom they represented "all the
      rights
      > > and
      > > > immunities of British Citizens." (See Marshall's Life of
      > > Washington.)
      > > > The most excellent part of their birthright and immunities,
      was,
      > > that
      > > > they inherited a title to the covenant blessings of their
      > > ancestors,
      > > > who entered into federal relations with the God of Israel. It
      may
      > > be
      > > > said in reply to this, that they did not intend to claim the
      > > covenant
      > > > birthright. It is admitted that they did not, and that in
      doing,
      > > so,
      > > > they committed a great sin. Men often do things, when they do
      not
      > > > understand their own transactions, as the Assyrian king
      fulfilled
      > > the
      > > > counsel of the Lord, although "he meant not so, nor did his
      heart
      > > > think so." Isa. 10:7.
      > > >
      > > > 6. The land has been blessed remarkably in temporal good
      things,
      > > > notwithstanding it "has deeply revolted;" as God showed favor
      to
      > > > Israel even when grossly offending him, by their abominable
      > > > idolatries. "To any nation," except Israel, "never he such
      favor
      > > did
      > > > afford." And we may say of our land, as David did of
      Israel, "Thou
      > > > shewedst them favor." Psal. 44:3.
      > > >
      > > > 7. All nations are under the covenant made with Noah,
      > > notwithstanding
      > > > they are dispersed over all the earth. All see the rainbow-
      and all
      > > > enjoy "summer and winter, cold and heat, seed time and
      harvest, day
      > > > and night," in fulfillment of the covenant made with their
      common
      > > > ancestor.
      > > >
      > > > 8. The ten tribes, cast out into far countries, are still
      bound by
      > > > their national covenant. The dispersed of Judah are also
      bound by
      > > the
      > > > same bond, dispersed as they are over Asia, Africa, Europe
      and
      > > > America. "And he shall set up an ensign for the nations, and
      shall
      > > > assemble the outcasts of Israel and the dispersed of Judah;
      to it
      > > > shall the Gentiles seek, and his rest shall be glorious."
      Isa.
      > > 11:12.
      > > > God promises to be a little sanctuary to them in the lands
      whither
      > > > they are scattered. "Thus saith the Lord God, although I have
      cast
      > > > them far off among the heathen, and although I have scattered
      them
      > > > among the countries, yet will I be to them as a little
      sanctuary in
      > > > the countries where they shall come." Ezek. 11:6. They are
      farther
      > > > remote from the land of their fathers' sepulchres, than we of
      this
      > > > country, are from the British Isles; and yet the God of their
      > > father
      > > > Jacob, acknowledges their outward covenant, relation to him.
      > > >
      > > > 9. The people of Judah and Benjamin were not released from
      their
      > > > covenant obligations, during their captivity in Babylon.
      > > >
      > > > 10. This is the doctrine of our Declaration and
      > > Testimony. "Covenants
      > > > entered into by an individual or a community, continue
      binding
      > > upon,
      > > > those who enter into them, either personally, or by their
      > > > representatives, so long as such persons live, unless the
      covenants
      > > > have limited their duration to a certain period."
      (Reformation
      > > > Principles, p. 107.). This doctrine is proved from Jer.
      11:10, "The
      > > > house of Israel, and the house of Judah, have broke, the
      covenant
      > > > which I made with their fathers." The community of the
      British
      > > nation
      > > > still exists, and many such persons still live, in the United
      > > States,
      > > > whose fathers entered into the National Covenant of Scotland,
      and
      > > > into "the Solemn League and Covenant of the three kingdoms of
      > > > Scotland, England and Ireland."
      > > > This is no more than a specimen of the ample testimony that
      might
      > > be
      > > > adduced to prove, both the perpetuity of the national
      covenants and
      > > > their descending obligation. We trust no one will ask more to
      > > > demonstrate that the ground which the Reformed Presbyterian
      church
      > > > occupies has not been taken rashly.
      > > >
      > > > While under obligations so solemn, ratified by the most holy
      > > > sanctions, endeared to us by the blood of our martyred
      fathers,-
      > > "men
      > > > of whom the world was not worthy,"-and recorded in the
      archives of
      > > > heaven, we must bear our testimony against a sinful nation,
      laden
      > > > with iniquity, that with all the lights of divine truth,
      shining in
      > > > her firmament for nearly two centuries, has neglected to
      recognize
      > > > her duty, by "joining herself to the Lord in a perpetual
      covenant,
      > > > not to be forgotten." O that the God of Israel may soon set
      the
      > > fair
      > > > jewel of his covenant in our forehead, and make our
      nation "the
      > > glory
      > > > of all lands." "He hath commanded his covenant forever; holy
      and
      > > > reverend is his name." Psal. 111:9.
      > > >
      > > > ---
      > > >
      > > > The considerations above may be helpful in considering this
      issue
      > > of
      > > > the obligation of the Covenant upon the U.S..
      > > >
      > > > > My second question was about the practical consequences of
      being
      > > > > legally bound to the SL&C. What are the benefits:
      Motivation as a
      > > > > result of fear of breaking the 2nd commandment, a reminder
      of
      > > your
      > > > > Christian obligations?
      > > >
      > > > Do you mean the 3rd Commandment? Falsely swearing and
      covenant-
      > > > breaking are violations of the 3rd Commandment. Of course,
      the
      > > > things you mention are benefits. But the benefits envisioned
      in
      > > the
      > > > Covenant are the blessings of God on Church and State, peace
      in the
      > > > nation, unity in faith and practice in all the Churches in
      the
      > > > nation, removal of Popery and Prelacy, etc., etc.
      > > >
      > > > > What are the penalties for not recognizing
      > > > > the Covenants legal force? Certainly you lose the two
      aforesaid
      > > > > benefits. What else?
      > > >
      > > > "The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations
      that
      > > > forget God."
      > > >
      > > > As a result of putting the Covenant behind our back, we see
      not
      > > unity
      > > > but disunity, we see Popery running wild, the displeasure of
      God,
      > > etc.
      > > >
      > > > Blessings to you, Peter.
      > > >
      > > > Where ya from?
      > > >
      > > > gmw.
      > >
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