Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

15530Re: Secret Society Paper

Expand Messages
  • bob_suden
    Apr 1, 2007
      --- In covenantedreformationclub@yahoogroups.com, Walt Bre <humbled.learner@...> wrote:
      > Dear brethren,
      > I know that I promised not to post again on here, and
      > for going back on my promise I'm sorry.

      Well, at least you are doing better than the elders who broke their promise with the PPSA.
      And from which same broken promise, all others have flowed.
      The buck stops at the top. God holds superiors more accountable than inferiors, particularly when the sins and shortcomings of superiors have provoked or encouraged inferiors to sin or error -  if that is what the Effort was - in answer to the PPSA and its schismatical and erroneous doctrine.

      > I saw Whit's comment this morning supporting the ideas
      > promoted by Chris and others in the Presbyterian
      > movement that not only are we an unfaithful church,
      > but that we would border on the edge of the Morman
      > Church, the Roman Catholic Ave Maria Worshippers,
      > In interesting definition I found will most definitely
      > scare away many people from EVER and NEVER consider
      > even reading our Terms of Communion, and subsequent
      > Session and Presbytery Decisions that our Church has
      > issued since around 1996. 

      While I would agree, that from what I know a cult is a group that denies fundamental Christian truths, such as those in the ecumenical creeds, ie. the Trinity (Mormons) or the deity of Christ (JW's), what will really drive people away from examining the historic RP Terms of Communion, is those who insist that Terms of Membership of the RPNA(GM) are the same thing as those historic terms, if not that the PPSA and the Tattoo paper are also agreeable to the same.

      The definition says:
      > "Cults are groups that often exploit members
      > psychologically and/or financially, typically by
      > making members comply with leadership's demands
      > through certain types of psychological manipulation,
      > popularly called mind control, and through the
      > inculcation of deep-seated anxious dependency on the
      > group and its leaders. . . .
      > Based upon the above definition, after our Elders have
      > learned about the Secret Society within our own
      > Church, I can see how not only those of us who are
      > left inside the RPNA (GM), but those especially who
      > were members inside the RPNA (GM) as part of this
      > Secret Society, will be viewed likewise.

      No, whatever one may say or however they misconstrue things, I don't think that those of us who have been excommunicated will be considered members of a cult because some of us also happened to be a part of the Effort meeting.
      In other words, you are on your own here Walter, as a member in good standing in the RPNA(GM) and trying to share the burden or pass it on won't fly. (Nice try though.)

      > After I read the documents of this Secret Society, I
      > can understand what these guys were trying to do and I
      > do not believe they intended to create the problems
      > that ultimately led many away from our church (this is
      > my own opinion).  Surely, some have already admitted
      > that they have never felt better since leaving our
      > church, but others I'm sure may look back on The
      > Effort and the means they used with sorrow.

      No, we look at the PPSA and the events that led up to and accompanied it with sorrow, much more those like yourself, who still can't see the issues and will be sidetracked by the sins of the Effort –  if they are that  –  all the while the deafening silence regarding the sins of the PPSA which provoked all this and the necessary steps to repentance are ignored.
      Granted, ordinarily something like the Effort meeting is uncalled for, disorderly  and divisive. I would be the first to say so and have, but in the total context of the backsliding, broken promises, obstinacy, unfaithfulness, negligence  and runaround one has gotten from the elders as an individual and as a society, the alternative is what? Submit to anything and everything the "Session" may care to impose upon one's conscience. I respectfully think not. That is popery, not presbyterianism.

      > As I study these documents, and all the documents that
      > make up the basis for nearly 30 excommunications, I am
      > firmly convinced now that my brothers and sisters have
      > misunderstood the doctrine of true Presbyterian
      > jurisdiction and the duties of membership by oath.
      > These two primary fundamental roots of the problem
      > grew into a massive protest.  The protest was:

      No, the protest was and still remains to be against the PPSA, which sins against Scripture, history and reason. NO PPSA - NO study group. It is that simple and always will be.
      > 1) In the form of a Secret Society led by a few within
      > our church who wanted to make a positive impact.
      > 2) In the form of a Public positive attack (admitted
      > by some that a good offence is always better than a
      > good defense) against the Elders to damage their
      > reputations and destroy all their credibility.

      As I was the one that made this comment that you have replied to previously and have taken out of context both times, after the elders have attacked Scripture, history, reason  and my conscience with the PPSA and the tattoo paper, faithfulness to the Lord Jesus Christ does not require abject and supine passivity to their sinful broken promises, official public statements and tyrannical oaths.
      After all, you forget, the Session of the PRCE early on refused to acknowledge the existence or constitution of a presbytery when they dissassociated with First Pres. of Dallas and the rest of the churches and officers in that endeavor and declined the authority of the presbytery. For better or worse and ironically enough, this is nothing more in principle than a replay of that, which makes it that much more odd IMO that the elders object.
      IF the Session is lawfully constituted, IF the PPSA is correct, IF the oaths are lawful, then to refuse one or all three is sinful. But that is precisely what has yet to be determined and the elders have not done a very good job -  if at all  - of establishing and defending their position.  And to fulfill their promise - if that is what it is - to restructure the church by excommunicating approx. 30 out of 90 to bring things down to a more manageable level that the electronically reincarnated Session of the PRCE can handle is not quite kosher. (While maybe not the intention, for all practical purposes that is what happened and what the "Session" is, a reincarnation of the PRCE's session. That is the only way for example, the "Sins of the Effort" paper can say the ''court' has been in existence ten [continuous?] years,' is it not?)

      > As I read the comments made by Whit and Chris, and
      > others will most likely follow, I can see that as more
      > and more people protest against us, for being strict
      > Covenanters, the hammer is going to fall on our heads
      > in the future.  There is no doubt that as more and
      > more people see us as a threat to their own
      > backslidden Presbyterian churches, and their own
      > unfaithful testimony as faithful Covenanters, the
      > flame throwers will be forthcoming and likely with a
      > vengeance.

      But it could never be that the "Session of" or the "RPNA(GM)" itself is backslidden and has an unfaithful testimony as professing Covenanters? Please, we know the Roman Church is infallible and has never and will never sin, but we are inclined to say to the PPSA and all affirmers of it, heal thyself. Then you might have an audience with all the rest of those unfaithful Presbyterian churches or even the disaffected brethren.
      > For those who would like to pray for us, please join
      > me in the following prayers before the feet of Christ:
      > 1) That the Lord will enlighten the hearts of those
      > who participated in The Effort and reveal to them the
      > sin of schism it caused within the RPNA (GM).  For
      > those who the Session Paper only hardens and causes
      > more forthcoming words of vengeance against us and the
      > Elders, that the Lord would use those words to be the
      > seeds of another Reformation within His Church.

      Again, the PPSA is a schismatical departure from Scripture, history and reason. If there was no PPSA, there would have been no extraordinary "schismatical" study group.

      > 4) That the Lord would reveal to other Ministers and
      > Elders the lawfulness and faithfulness, in
      > extraordinary and unsettled times, of a phone
      > conference to discuss matters of church doctrine,
      > discipline, form of worship and form of government.
      > That the international phone conference, where two or
      > three ordained ministers are gathered, is indeed
      > lawful and faithful, and thereby does bring Christ
      > into their midst to rule, bind and loose as He has
      > promised in His word.

      Then maybe he could start first with those responsible for the PPSA who insist not just on a phone conferences, as if anybody objects, but actually constituting an official court of Christ in this fashion, contra the historical understanding of Matt. 18:20 . They also ignore/deny the apostolic practice in Acts 15 to accompany the technology of the day – a written letter – with the personal presence of the apostles and elders in delivering the synodical decree. Or is it that those who nominally claim to be just a session, can lawfully set aside the requirements for synodical decrees even as they usurp those synodical powers? Is this what you mean, when you refer to "t
      he doctrine of true Presbyterian jurisdiction?" Rather, how about substituting tyrannical?

      Ephesians 6:4  And, ye fathers, provoke not your children to wrath: but bring them up in the nurture and admonition of the Lord.

      Luke 12:48  But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

      Isaiah 58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and shew my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.

      cordially in Christ

    • Show all 16 messages in this topic